Daily Kos

Is Pat Buchanan actually right about something?

Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:59:04 PM PDT

I normally can't stand Pat Buchanan.  But last night he made a point that my father made months ago.  I agreed with my dad (a hardcore democract) then and I have to agree with Buchanan now.

Perhaps the most important vote any senator can make, is whether or not to authorize an action that will get people killed.  Far worse than anything to do with funding or oversight -- the vote on a war resolution has the possible impact on human lives.

Hillary Clinton can't say her vote for the Iraq War Resolution was a mistake. Because if she does she's then saying that in the biggest vote in her senate career (not a very long one) she got it wrong.

Sure, this admission would salve the soul of some of us Democrats.  Personally, I think it's important and a true sign of leadership to admit ones mistakes.  It's where healing begins.

But the republican's don't see the value in healing, especially during a campaign.  And there machine would eat Hillary's admission for lunch.  If she doesn't admit it was a mistake, they'll feast on her vote for the Iraq war instead.

You can hear it now:

McCain or Romney: "OH, so the war is a huge mistake?!?  Well, Senator Clinton, oh behalf of the Iraqi people I still want to thank you for your vote.  Even if it was a 'huge mistake.'  Now I want to ask the American people. Do we really want a president who's most important vote in her very short life as a senator led us to such a huge 'MISTAKE.'"

Unfortunately for her, Hillary Clinton is in a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" position.

Last night in the debate, her refusal to come back at Obama on the topic shows that she and her campaign know she's completely vulnerable on this issue.  They want off of it as soon as possible.

Just for myself, I can't advocate a strategy where we go into a general election campaign with a candidate who's so weak on an issue on which we Democrats should be the strongest.

Obama doesn't have this vulnerability on this issue.  He's always been against this war.

I know some will say that he's voted to fund the war.  But it's reckless and disingenuous to ignore that he opposed the war from the beginning just because he funds the troops now.

It's much easier to reinforce  that you support the troops monetarily when you can also point to your support for them morally from the beginning.

Vote how you want.  Flame if you will.  I know  who I'm voting for.

Tags: Hillary Clinton, iraq war, general election, Barack Obama, resolution (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 143 comments

  •  Pat Buchanan's opinion doesn't become relevant (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RichM, amberglow, esquimaux, Pegasus, Anne Elk

    just because you agree with him.  If it's a good point, Buchanan's endorsement of it makes it no more valid.

  •  I hate to say it (12+ / 0-)

    but Pat Buchanan is an astute observer of politics. He's batshit crazy when it comes to ideology, but he knows what makes a good campaign.

    However, he is still convinced that the Clintons' race baiting in South Carolina is going to work against Obama and I don't see it happening. Senator Obama has all the momentum....

  •  Oh yeah (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    amberglow, gossamer, shigeru

    I can understand why she spoke of it the way she did. It is not Pat, it is just my opinion. Kerry was spun as a flipflopper when he admitted that his vote was a mistake, and Hillary is trying to avoid that trap.

    I still hold that vote against her, big time.

    •  Actually... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      amberglow

      Kerry never admitted the IWR vote was a mistake.  They spun him on the supplemental funding, not the IWR.  And both items cost him the election.

      When Bush visits Europe, they burn American flags and spit insults for America. When Obama visits Europe, they wave American flags and sing America's praises.

      by RichM on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:26:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Soundbyte (0+ / 0-)

        He was a lot more nuanced about it, and somehow only the simple soundbytes tend to stick...They got something "I voted against the war before I voted for it" and ran to town with it.

        She doesn't want to give that sound byte. She very well might if and after she has won the election.

        •  She gave plenty of sound bites last night... (0+ / 0-)

          Especially over the Levin amendment and putting her trust in Bush.  McCain is going to crucify her over it.

          When Bush visits Europe, they burn American flags and spit insults for America. When Obama visits Europe, they wave American flags and sing America's praises.

          by RichM on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:31:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  not true (0+ / 0-)

        Swing voters in 2004 were ambivalent about which side to go with on Iraq, foreign policy, and government 'ethics'.

        They leaned Bush/Republican on 'fighting terrorism' and social issues (i.e. restricting abortions).  They leaned Kerry/Democratic on economic issues.

        They split 2:1 for Bush, i.e. 6%-3%, which adds onto the solid 45% for each side to form the 51-48 outcome.

        All the other reasons for voting one way or the other didn't hold up as true factors in exit polling or exit interviews.  Bush voters said a lot of bad things about Kerry when trying to explain their vote, but would admit to not believing them or knowing the allegations to be factually false.  It was concluded that they glommed fervently onto excuses because they were ashamed of Bush but not, uh, morally inclined to reject him for it.  IOW, they chose to be delusional.

        Renewal. Not mere reforms. We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.

        by killjoy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:11:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  She's fatally flawed (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mainer, gossamer, SeaTurtle

      We must NOT make the same mistake we did with John Kerry. If our candidate voted for Iraq, they're characterized as 'surrendering' by the GOP when they say they're going to get us out.

      When our candidate was always against the Iraq War, then they're the smart ones. They can call out our Repug opponent for being stupid each and every day until the election.

  •  Yes. Yes. YES! (8+ / 0-)

    Hillary Clinton sent men and women to their death because she thought voting against it would be inconvenient to her political ambitions. Think about that.

    •  I'm afraid a LOT of people are guilty (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      amberglow

      of send you folks to your deaths.  Not just HRC.  But yeah, of the two, that's the case.

      Can I ask a question?

      Are you a veteran?  

      If so, how do you feel about Obama's (and others')  funding votes?

      "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

      by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:06:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  excellent question, gossamer (0+ / 0-)

        How can continually voting to fund this horror and mistake be at all right?

        And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

        by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:08:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wasn't asking you (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          klnb1019

          I was asking someone I thought was a vet.

          In my opinion, as someone with family and friends serving in Iraq right now, I WANT them to have funding.

          We don't get to sit here in our comfy homes and offices and ridicule how someone goes about extricating themselves from a huge pile of bullshit someone else threw them in to.

          "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

          by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:10:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            gossamer

            we need to fund - but we should start funding a withdrawal.  I have family in the Army, and wouldn't want to think about anyone stopping funding until there was a complete plan to get them all out safely.

            We have an obligation to protect our forces until such time as we have superior leadership - leadership that will end this mess.

            Damn it. Enough. I've had enough. And boy, does that word enough look weird when you type it enough times.

            by klnb1019 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:16:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Here here. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              klnb1019

              We have an obligation to protect our forces until such time as we have superior leadership - leadership that will end this mess.

              It's far too easy for our party to advocate cutting off funding.  That's deeply disturbing to me.  I think it would change if everyone in our party had to think about THEIR brother in law being among the last in Iraq without the tools they need to do their job.

              "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

              by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:19:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This is a complete misinterpretation of what ... (8+ / 0-)

                ...most of us who have urged the cutting off of funding have been saying since we first started saying it. And it's a slur not unlike Mister Bush's and other rightwing slurs that those who want to cut off funding don't "support the troops," one of the most hollow propaganda slogans of this administration. Everyone I know who wants to cut off funding wants a withdrawal to be fully funded.

                I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

                by Meteor Blades on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:24:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Then say this (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Buckeye Terry

                  "FULLY FUND A WITHDRAWL."

                  Stop saying "CUT OFF FUNDING."

                  The two are VASTLY different things, that's why they sound so different.

                  "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

                  by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:26:53 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I HAVE been saying this for the ... (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    amberglow, gossamer

                    ...past year.

                    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

                    by Meteor Blades on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:30:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Good. Thanks. (0+ / 0-)

                      "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

                      by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:31:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  sorry (0+ / 0-)

                      Good thanks.  But to comment to which I was referring did NOT say "Fully fund a withdrawl." it asked

                      How can continually voting to fund this horror and mistake be at all right?

                      Again, that's NOT 'fully fund a withdrawl.'

                      "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

                      by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:32:37 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  yeah--i'd leave them there to rot?!? (0+ / 0-)

                        what do you think i was saying?

                        jeez.

                        And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

                        by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:37:52 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  fully funding every time does leave them there (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          esquimaux

                          forever, btw.

                          Each time Congress approves more funding, they reaffirm that they still support what Bush is doing, and that it's worth it. Even when they speak of ending it--their actions are lengthening and prolonging it.

                          And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

                          by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:40:21 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree, but... (0+ / 0-)

                            Congress isn't presently willing to withhold funding and Bush vetoes every plan to start phased withdrawal. So remember this date - 4/21/10. That is the absolute last date we will have troops in Iraq under a President Obama. With a President Clinton, the date is unclear.

                            •  i dont' buy it--instability will keep our (0+ / 0-)

                              troops there as long as the Iraqi govt is a shambles.

                              I seriously don't believe any president will pull out if it means complete civil war and more horrors there.

                              And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

                              by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:53:31 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  16 months is more than enough time (0+ / 0-)

                                to partition the country ala Joe Biden or some other plan. What you are saying means we'll be there forever. Might as well buy into McCain's 100 year war.

                                •  i don't have hope that (0+ / 0-)

                                  any of them will have the strength to do it, and the media and GOP will howl and paint it as "surrendering"--i don't think Hillary or Obama will be able to withstand that, and have their presidencies painted that way (falsely, but that's how it is).

                                  If we had only been there a year or so it would have been more doable, but not now, i don't think. And we took our permanent bases out of Saudi Arabia and have to put them somewhere (altho i'd rather we didn't have them at all).

                                  And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

                                  by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:05:39 PM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                        •  I don't put words in your mouth (0+ / 0-)

                          you clearly were NOT saying "we should fully fund a withdrawl."

                          If you had said that, I'd have had NO issue with it at all.  But you didn't say that.

                          Instead you said

                          How can continually voting to fund this horror and mistake be at all right?

                          In a comment where i was asking someone else a legitimate question.

                          "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

                          by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:41:23 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  continually funding it prolongs it. (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            esquimaux

                            continually funding it ensures more death and destruction.

                            continually funding it does not make any soldier safer.

                            The Pentagon has always had the funds to withdraw, and doesn't want to. Congress continually pouring more trillions in without conditions or demands ensures it continues. It's only by not pouring more money in that withdrawal will happen. No matter how many lies the GOP tells about how it will hurt the troops--it won't.

                            Not funding Veteran's care and letting Walter Reed and others become shitholes hurts the troops far far more.

                            And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

                            by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:45:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  read dj angst's comment below--seriously. (0+ / 0-)

                            And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

                            by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:51:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  I did (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              amberglow

                              it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of "cut off funds."

                              Here's the point, funds are a rope tying us to Iraq.  I'd LOOOOOVE to cut that rope.  I'd seriously LOOOOOVE to do it. I'd buy the best pair of scissors made to do it.  It's just that one of the three MAJOR strands in that rope is people fighting in a war.  You can't cut that rope with out cutting through them too.

                              This isn't a fallacy.  It's not Bush spin, it's valid.  One of my family is an officer.  Went to Westpoint and graduated with Petraus.  He points out very validly that the politicians (whom he DESPISES) were very very clever in interweaving the two.  He hates it.

                              I'd be glad to talk to you about this "off line," but I'm respecting my family members position and  not going into further detail.

                              "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

                              by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:59:57 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

          •  no, we DO get to do that, bec it's our money, and (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            esquimaux

            being done in our name!

            we bear responsibility for both the starting of it and the continuing of it, and all the horrors it's brought too.

            And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

            by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:18:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  and we bear the responsibility to our troops (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              klnb1019

              I'm sorry, but funding troops is real. I know it's chic for democrats to pretend this is ONLY 'funding bush's war'  but people fighting there will tell you, we are FUNDING THEM.

              "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

              by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:20:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're funding my son-in-law (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                gossamer

                and I'd really appreciate his having all the tools he needs until he comes home.  Which God willing is just a couple of short weeks from now.

                Damn it. Enough. I've had enough. And boy, does that word enough look weird when you type it enough times.

                by klnb1019 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:23:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Vet here. And in theory I agree with you... (8+ / 0-)

            ... actually you'd have a hard time finding anyone who would advocate restricting bullets and bandages in the war zone.

            But honest debate on funding has been crippled by false dichotomies coming from the RW.

            De-funding the war does not mean putting troops in harm's way without the things they need to fight it. In fact that is already happening on a large scale with the current "over" funding congress has passed.

            George Bush is already making them suffer to maximize profits to his buddies. And for any other president I would say de-funding would be translated in the field to less operations committed, rather than same level of commitment, with less troops and equipment.

            But for GWB, it means he is holding our troops hostage for profit. Plain and simple.

            Essentially I'm saying the "don't take our troop's food and bullets away" argument is a canard.

            The Multinationals and the Religious Right have identical goals: Profit from war, ignorance and fear...and the GOP is their Party.

            by dj angst on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:24:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I am not, and that gives me a lot of respect (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        gossamer

        for those that are. I try to never forget that there are those who got shot at so that I can type on DKos.

    •  she also needed to be tough--the Thatcher thing-- (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Buckeye Terry

      as a woman who wanted to run for "Commander-in-Chief".

      She's been hawkish, but i don't think she would start anything like Iraq if she were pres--i'm sure of it.

      And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

      by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:10:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I also think that the Iraq vote doesn't hurt her (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        amberglow

        in the general. Obviously, she doesn't want to bring attention to it in the primaries, but it will not be any kind of issue in the general. In fact, it kind of insulates her from the right. McCain can't call her some kind of weak-kneed surrender monkey, because she clearly is not. If Iraq was front page news right now, that also might be having an effect. But it isn't. The economy is where it's at right now. So, much as the committed anti-war activists might wish it to be so, Iraq just isn't quite the issue it was some time ago.

      •  She voted for a war to look better to voters (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        gossamer, SeaTurtle

        Let's repeat that, because it's what you just said.

        She voted for a war to look better for voters

        and 3943 Americans died, and many thousands more were wounded. 10's of thousands of Iraqis died, including men, women, and children.

        She voted for a war to look better for voters

        I don't know how we get past that.

        •  Democrats HAVE TO STAND UP (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          SeaTurtle, Travis Stark

          I don't know how we get past that.

          The only way to get past it is for Democrats to do some of the "Standing Up" we constantly bitch that the congress isn't doing.

          We have to STAND UP and say we WILL NOT nominate a candidate who voted for the war.

          End of story.

          "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

          by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:04:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Tips? thanks (9+ / 0-)

    "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

    by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:03:50 PM PDT

  •  I'm gonna vote for Obama, decided only yesterday (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    amberglow, gossamer, Anne Elk

    but I'm doing mainly it because I think he can generate a wave in the general that HRC can't.   However I disagree that HRC's aggravatingly pro-war position is actually going to hurt her, overall, in the general. With the netroots, sure.  But not with Joe Sixpack.  

    I hate to say it, but Americans LIKE war.  What they don't like is losing.  

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:04:18 PM PDT

    •  respectfully (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lgmcp, klnb1019, SeaTurtle

      I'm sorry, but 70% of American's oppose this war.  The argument isn't "War" with a capital "W," it's about THIS war.

      "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

      by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:08:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  yup--we need to see ourselves as winners (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lgmcp, Anne Elk

      and don't care who dies as a result so much--it's horrible but true.

      And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

      by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:09:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The mystique of "USA kicks ass" usually (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      amberglow, lgmcp, sfbob

      relegates to insignificance any consideration as to whose ass it is, why we're kicking it to begin with, whether we're right to do so, and whether we have any right to do so.
      It's called American Patriotism.
      And it goes a long way to explain how it is that the biggest hawks on both the Repub and the Dem side - McCain and Clinton - will probably be contending the Presidency in November, by which time we'll be in the fifth year of a violent occupation of Iraq preceded by an immoral invasion on the basis of lies.

      We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

      by Lepanto on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:14:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it will hurt her (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gossamer, GW Chimpzilla

      when in a debate for the GE... they are like "you thought it was a good idea now, but now you don't?"

      Obama scores points here when he says it's not that he was against this war, but he's against the whole mindset that got us in to the war.

      "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" - Barack Obama

      by pacified on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:15:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But isn't that were the broad electorate is too? (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        amberglow, Buckeye Terry, sfbob

        We thought it was fine idea, but now we don't?  

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:25:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No she won't say that (0+ / 0-)

        She will say that the idea of overthrowing a dangerous mass murderer was not in itself wrong. But what was wrong was to do it in about the most incompetent, arrogant, stupid manner possible in a way that has really done long term damage to US security. She will go on to say that her task now will be to repair that damage by carefully extracting the USA from the desperate morass into which the GOP has plunged America. She might add too that, while she did vote to authorize force as a last resort, McCain was an enthusiastic supporter of the Bush administration that produced this fiasco, and blocked many Democratic efforts to resolve it.

        I think she might say something like that. And that pretty much describes how a lot of Americans think about the war in Iraq.

    •  I want both of them (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lgmcp

      I want Obama to be the President and Clinton to be the VP. I think they would be a remarkable partnership. Both of them are rare talents. Obama is an inspirational speaker with a powerful intellect. Clinton is a master of policy detail with a legendary organizational talent. Together, they would form one of the truly great political partnerships.

      Like Lincoln and Seward, maybe. I remember from somewhere that Seward thought Lincoln at first to be a country bumpkin who had no idea about anything. He soon changed his tune, and became Lincoln's most devoted admirer.

      •  I'd love a joint ticket (0+ / 0-)

        with ANY combination of BHO, HRC, and JRE.  But unfortunately circumstances are such that we are unlikely to get it.  Too bad, because the better our margin against McCain, the better I'd feel.

        Surely HRC would head the ticket, though ... as the one who still has more money, more years, and more delegates?  

        16 years of Dem hegemony ... could be sweet. For once we'd have time to do something besides clean up R messes.  

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:46:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think it depends on a few things (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lgmcp

          admittedly improbable. But hey, we had 8 years of Bush. So I don't discount anything these days. If Obama and Clinton both get lots of delegates and there is not a lopsided victory by one of them, then I think the chances for a joint ticket go way up. I think you may have seen some signs that this is a possibility in last night's debate. The suggestion of Obama and Clinton as a "dream ticket" got strong applause, and Obama said that, as a VP candidate, Hillary would be on anybody's short list. And by anybody, I think he meant himself. My opinion on this keeps getting slammed, particularly by the fervent Obama-maniacs, but I think the logic is very powerful. We will see the answer in a few days.

      •  Seward became Secretary of State, (0+ / 0-)

        not Lincoln's first Vice President.  That was Hannibal Hamlin of Maine. Seward actually wrote a memo to Lincoln at the beginning of the administration suggesting the Sec. of State (Seward) become like a Prime Minister and the President (Lincoln) being a figure head.

        I remember from somewhere that Seward thought Lincoln at first to be a country bumpkin who had no idea about anything. He soon changed his tune, and became Lincoln's most devoted admirer.

        Seward also supported measures that would have compromised the Republican position on slavery expansion in order to keep the South in the Union.  He later came to realize the genius of Lincoln and Lincoln's pro-Union stance.

        I guess Seward would be called a flip-flopper today and unworthy of holding public office.

        "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

        by Buckeye Terry on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:20:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Buchanan's Right About Many Things. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, Barth, sfbob

    And always for the wrong reasons.

    •  Yes... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      amberglow

      Buchanan's Right About Many Things. And always for the wrong reasons.

      Astute comment...please have a "four" from a rapid, frothing, hardcore partisan who is no longer allowed to rate...

      Cindy McCain: "In Arizona The Only Way To Get Around The State Is By Small Private Plane"

      by assyrian64 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:29:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Buchanan said this today (0+ / 0-)

    on MSNBC -

    Obama is moving too far left to get the Edwards voters, and he could lose 40 states if he is the Democratic nominee.  Hillary gives the Democrats a much better chance to win.

    Just sayin...

    Voting rights are our most important rights because all the other ones depend on them

    by markusd on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:09:20 PM PDT

  •  can I add, I love him and Maddow together (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    latts, amberglow, DrMicro, oklib77

    and the idea that the paleo-con and the lesbian are having a debate?

    I think we'd all be a lot better off if all the cons were like Pat, instead of like the neo-cons.

    "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" - Barack Obama

    by pacified on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:13:56 PM PDT

    •  it's because she calls him on his shit, and (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pacified, DrMicro

      usually on TV psychos are allowed to always get away with it, no matter what they spout.

      And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

      by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:15:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i think he respects her a lot too (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        amberglow

        especially when she's saying stuff you NEVER hear, because she's so kick ass.  And he chuckles and smiles and knows she's doing well, even though he doesn't agree with her.

        "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" - Barack Obama

        by pacified on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:17:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Pardon me, but just because Buchanan's ... (4+ / 0-)

      ...views sometimes matches progressives' doesn't make him better than NeoCons. He supported apartheid and argued strenuously and for years that the U.S. should stop hunting Nazi war criminals in its midst. He was the guy who encouraged Ronald Reagan to visit and speak at the cemetery in Bittburg, Germany, where he said that the SS troops buried there were just conscripts like Allied soldiers, a criminally stupid lie.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:20:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i don't think he's better (0+ / 0-)

        but if we didn't have the neo-cons running around starting empire wars, and the right wing was just doing what Buchanan wanted, we'd be better off.

        We wouldn't be in Iraq, that's for sure.

        Buchanan is dangerous.  I find the neo-cons MORE dangerous.

        "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" - Barack Obama

        by pacified on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:23:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There are paleocons I can respect ... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pacified, amberglow, TexasTwister

          ...though they are in short supply. But Buchanan isn't one of them. And his foreign policy approach isn't just "antiwar," it's isolationist and xenophobic. Can we agree at least that paleocons and neocons are both con artists we can do without?

          I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

          by Meteor Blades on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:29:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  definaltely the xeno part (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            TexasTwister

            none of that.

            though I am a quasi-isolationist, but only from a self-sufficiency stand point.  I do think it more important to take care of Americans and American jobs before worrying about anyone else.

            "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" - Barack Obama

            by pacified on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:36:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  How is Buchanan a con-artist? (0+ / 0-)

            A man with far-right political opinions I and any other empathetic or liberal person should disagree with?  Obviously!  But a con-artist?  That title belongs to tax-cut and spend "compassionate conservatives" who champion small government but cause the worst sort of government bloat by through "privatized" handouts to their war-profiteering allies.  Buchanan is many things, but "someone who hides his opinions" isn't one of them.  In a good and just world, men like him (and yes, even Ron Paul) would be our worthy enemies.

            The fact that their opinions are so far out of the mainstream that we would destroy them in almost every election is a minor, co-incidental detail.  ;)

            "While there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free!" -Eugene V. Debs

            by leftneck on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:02:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Look at Buchanan's history ... (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              TexasTwister, leftneck

              ...Just one example: He was a master of dirty tricks for Nixon. He was Karl Rove when Rove was a kid. He denied for two decades being a dirty trickster until a memo showed up in 1996 proving otherwise.

              Like many racists, he plays up division where there is none. I call that being a con-artist. I certainly don't deny that his opinions are mostly out in the open, but the lies he tells to back them up is part of that con-artistry. He's especially good at it.

              I do admire one thing about him. He is an excellent polemicist, and I always wished that, since I had to edit right-wing columns as part of my job, that I would have had his to edit instead of those of Cal Thomas, a talentless hack.

              I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

              by Meteor Blades on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:18:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh yeah (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Meteor Blades

                I'd forgotten about his Nixon years, and you make a good point (even if Nixon's scandals seem almost quaint nowadays).  As for playing up divisions, if that qualifies as con-artistry, then nearly the entire Republican party is made up of con artists...  which is a very fair accusation!

                I guess I was just using Buchanan as a stand-in for paleo-conservatives in general, which I feel deserve more respect than most Republican politicians.  Perhaps Paul would be a better example--his domestic policy would be a complete disaster, divesting from our human capital at a time when we need it most.  Yet, of all the Republican candidates, he is the only one who seems to have an real desire to help this country, rather than himself and his financial backers; he's certainly the only one willing to honestly talk about problems that are inconvenient to Republicans.  Watching him in the debates is like watching a Greek tragedy or the apology of Socrates--a lone, doomed voice speaking truth to a group of people who have chosen to ignore it. If people like him were the face of the GOP, I'd fight them just as hard...  but I still think the country would be in a far better place.

                "While there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free!" -Eugene V. Debs

                by leftneck on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:37:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  okay, now I REALLY have respect (0+ / 0-)

                and awe for you.  You had to edit Cal Thomas' work???

                I can't imagine all the character your built during that proverbial character-building employment.  Your mother would be proud.

                Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                by a gilas girl on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:30:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I remember that (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        amberglow

        Hitler was opposed to the trapping of wild animals. Hardly made him a humanitarian, did it?

      •  Actually, his Bitburg speech was even worse... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades, esquimaux

        Pat actually wrote -- and Ronald Reagan orated -- that the SS troops were "victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps."

        McCain: Running for Hoover's 21st term

        by Finck II on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:00:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  yes (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      amberglow

      my partner & i discussed it last night.  hillary cant say she made a mistake.  there are some who will either forgive her (or ignore it altogether, more likely) & vote for her.  

      she made a faustian pact.  the main reason shes where shes at now is b/c of that awful vote.

      she still has my support but i dont flame on obama folks on this issue.

      maddow & buchanan ARE great together, i hope keef keeps that combo going all year long.

      beneath the paving stones, the beach!

      by oklib77 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:25:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One problem too, is that war is always given (0+ / 0-)

    primacy and importance overall--the framing of this too--that sending people to fight and die is the most imp decision--i don't think that's true.

    I think pursuing policies that cause harm and death to Americans in America is the most important thing. I think letting us go without healthcare and necessities is the most important thing. I think that we have millions homeless and hungry is most important. I think reducing opportunity here for us is most important. ...

    And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

    by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:14:03 PM PDT

    •  Please, don't give me this... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SecondComing, Barth

      that sending people to fight and die is the most imp decision--i don't think that's true.

      Tell that to the family of a dead soldier.  But please, don't tell me that.  As someone with family over there, I can tell you emphatically that you are wrong.  Sending my family off to fight, kill and possibly die (in BOTH Iraq wars) was - in fact - the most important thin any senator ever voted on.

      "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

      by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:17:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  sorry, but their actions against us here outweigh (0+ / 0-)

        all foreign things, no matter what.

        They're wrong to send our soldiers to kill and die, but that's not their most important job by any means. They work for us--our government works for us. That means domestic things are always most important because our lives are more affected by them, even when they don't get the most attention.

        And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

        by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:21:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  just stop (0+ / 0-)

          you keep telling me that your domestic policy is more important than sending my family to serve in some bullshit  illegal war.

          You sound like a neocon asshole and it's not helping your case.

          "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

          by gossamer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:25:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i didn't insult you--don't do it to me. (0+ / 0-)

            I'm no neo-con--they want wars. I don't.

            I want my govt to work for us HERE. I want war to not be so constantly and falsely reaffirmed as "the most important thing" because that makes it MORE LIKELY that we'll do it again and again. It should be harder to go to war, not part of a president's duties or congress' duties.

            War should never be made priority one--ever.

            And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

            by amberglow on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:29:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I disagree (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          amberglow, gossamer, LynneK

          look at the insane cost of the war and subsequent occupation.  Some is intrinsic to having a military, but the vast majority has been such an economic drain that it will affect every domestic policy for at least the next decade.

          3 June 2008: I join the Democratic Party

          by Rorgg on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:28:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  don't feel bad (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DrMicro, KeepingItBlueKrstna

    I actually subscribe to Buchanan's magazine:  The American Conservative.

    Believe it or not, they endorsed Kerry in 2004.

    They also have some good anti-corporate greed and anti-war writing.

    True, they hinted in this issue that Americans are too xenophobic to elect Obama and I disagree with them about tons of social issues.

    When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

    by onanyes on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:17:28 PM PDT

  •  Obama's argument (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    amberglow

    that he makes the better foreign policy candidate because of his initial position on the war was well articulated, but I don't think it'll hold up to Republican assault.

    It excites the base, no question. It impresses the deep thinkers on CNN. But it is, in mind, misguided to argue that that foreign policy would be a strength for Obama in a general election against McCain.  There are lots of reasons to vote for Obama - and I likely will in the primary and certainly would in the general - but when it comes to this issue, it is Obama's, not Hillary's, lunch that gets eaten.

    Look, I was against the war from the beginning, too. I don't think it makes me equipped to deal with Pakistan or North Korea.  Foresight and wisdom are important, but most voters would like to see a candidate with a sliver of experience on this issue.  On foreign affairs, I think Hillary will come off as more knowledgable, experienced, and tough in the eyes the 20% of voters that every election is about - even with a tortured position on authorization.

    If, on the other hand, the debate is on domestic issues, or if the opponent is Romney, Obama is a much stronger candidate.

    •  When the debate turns (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LynneK

      to the war in Iraq, Obama will be able to assert his opposition to this "dumb war" from the start, echoing the sentiment of a majority of people in this country (even if many came around to it later).

      His votes for funding make any counter-attack about him "opposing the troops" impossible, and are easily supported with common-sense arguments. No need for tortured explanations of the "for it before against it" variety that crippled our last candidate.

      His opposition to the Iraq war from the start gives him an opening to turn the conversation to Afghanistan, and the need to redouble efforts there: both the need that was ignored in the past (by his opponent) and the one that presents itself still.

      He'll have ample opportunity to demonstrate his knowledge, toughness, and clear-headedness about the security and military needs regarding Afghanistan and bin Laden, as well as his understanding of other parts of the world.

      His opponent, backed into a corner of unquestioning support for an unpopular war, won't have anywhere to hide and nothing to hit back with.

      "The world's a mess and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible

      by BobzCat on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:22:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not in this America (0+ / 0-)

        I appreciate fleshing out how the argument would go - and I think on a logical level you make a good argument - but it's far too nuanced for the average voter.  

        I'm not sure I entirely buy it, either.  I mean, in a clean debate, yes, that argument plays well.  But that's not how it's going to be.  I really do think there is value in someone being tested.  On this issue, Obama is truly coming from the ivory tower. God forbid there is a new flare-up in the middle east - Obama's goose is cooked at that point.  Being right really isn't enough when a nation is at war.  Frankly, I don't think JFK could been elected in a time of war.

        And how precisely is he going to "demonstrate his knowledge [and] toughness"? By talking about it in debates?  For one, people like seeing action.  For another, his manner is not tough and decisive (few Democrats are, which is why they struggle when we're at war...and, cyncally, why Republicans start wars).

        No matter how much supporters want it to be so, it's simply not his strength.  He'd be wise to shift the debate, if possible...

        •  We disagree (0+ / 0-)

          It's refreshing to see that a lot of Democrats in this America are ready to support someone who doesn't build a persona or hone a message out of fear over what the Republicans will say or what the media will do.

          Don't be so eager to cook anyone's goose. None of these candidates have been "tested" in this office. The only experience that matters is the one someone gets on-the-job.

          The only candidate to oppose an unpopular war from the start, and you advise him to shift the debate away? Can't see how that's good advice.

          We've been living in fear for a long time. It's going to take some time to get out of that mindset. Time to start, I say.

          "The world's a mess and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible

          by BobzCat on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:18:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Talk about odd couples......Maddow/Buchanan (3+ / 0-)

    Is there a more unique paring of political commentators than Rachel Maddow and Pat Buchanan?

    I think it is a testimony to the Obama-like rise of Maddow through the pundit ranks (at least in MSNBC world). I know PB is a goofy old guy, but he does have a name and he has been around forever, and to see that station officials would see her as having enough presence to go head to head with him is pretty remarkable.

    Let the word go forth from this time and place...that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--Obama '08

    by Azdak on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:22:39 PM PDT

  •  Huge weak spot for Hillary... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    gossamer, oklib77

    ...I always took Hillary's vote for the war as an admission she thought George W. Bush was a good president during that time frame.

    Logic would seem to dictate that if she thought Bush was  truly a fuck-up in the making, there is no way she would vote for his Iraq "project."

    To me, it proves she doesn't have enough street smarts to recognize a con-man  manipulator when she sees one.

  •  Little Hitler (I mean Pat Buchanan) (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    amberglow, gossamer

    was against the war in Iraq (as was, yes, State Sen Obama of Illinois).

    Whatever Mr. Obama's reasons were, Buchanan's were similar to those of Lindbergh in 1938.  That his conclusion somehow comes out right, doesn't make his thought process right.

    I am an Edwards person, now voting for Senator Obama.  My vote is not largely based on Senator Clinton's vote of the use of force resolution which she ought not have  voted for, but I agree with Josh Marshall's views about the importance of that vote when it was made.

    All that aside, her answers last night were not good and do not suggest lessons learned.  Yes, I, too, am quite wary about Iran, and probably as much if not more so of Pakistan.  But I wasn't all that happy about the USSR or China either and we did not have to go to war to protect our country from them.

    I am not concerned that she will be as reckless as the current president or even as goofy as her husband (one day hot, the next cold), but I prefer Senator Obama's approach to these issues.

    "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

    by Barth on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:28:06 PM PDT

    •  Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern both (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Barth, LynneK

      voted for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in 1964-the Vietnam equivalent of the