Daily Kos

Why is Frank Rich shilling for Obama?

Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:12:54 AM PDT

Frank Rich has a brain.  I used to enjoy reading him and watching him stick it to whatever Republican talking point that most raised his ire on a given week.  But I don't understand why he has chosen to be so subjectively hateful of late to Senator Clinton. For example, after discussing her recent Town Hall event in a tone dripping with sarcasm, Rich says (link):

What’s more, it offered a naked preview of how nastily the Clintons will fight, whatever the collateral damage to the Democratic Party, in the endgame to come.

Then, in a manner very uncharacteristic for those of us accustomed to reading Frank Rich over the years, he wanders through a litany of other complaints (all of which seem non-objective to my admittedly biased eye) and gets completely off point.  When he finally gets back on track to talk about what he meant when he referred to Clinton nastiness, the first thing he says is that the show was on a set that was "a deliberate throwback to the good old days of 1992."  OK, I'm not even sure he is right about that part, but even so that is hardly "nastiness."

Then Rich continues by pointing out that the Wil.I.Am youtube video was probably seen by more people than Hillary's Town Hall Event.  He may well be right there, but how is that making his point that Hillary Clinton is being nasty?  Is his point that she over-hyped her event?  If that is his point then he contradicts himself elsewhere in the same piece when he says that it was intentionally designed to not get Network News Coverage:

The same news media that constantly revisited the Oprah-Caroline-Maria rally in California ignored "Voices Across America: A National Town Hall." The Clinton campaign would no doubt attribute this to press bias, but it scrupulously designed the event to avoid making news.

Rich also says the event was scripted.  Here I think there is a rational explanation that makes more sense than comparing it to a Bush Town Hall where softball questions are picked.  Yes, the campaign did select questions from among those submitted on the web and at the various locations.  But at each location it was the audience who determined which of them would ask what question.  And the Clinton campaign allowed them to do so without any interference as far as I can tell.  Unlike a Bush Town Hall, where the questions are designed to promote some halftruth talking points, Hillary's team took questions and her supporters picked questions that allowed her to show her mastery of a wide array of subjects.  The Clinton campaign thinks this compares her favorably with Obama because he doesn't know the issues as well.  So the format was intended to display what they see as her biggest strength.  That is hardly nasty.

Rich also accuses the Clinton team of playing on the sympathies of supporters with the loan Hillary took out and revisits a story about Bill Clinton's profits from one deal.  That latter story was all through the media last week and fell with a thud because the public saw it as a non-important issue.  The usual suspects played it up but it got no traction.  But Frank Rich wants to bring it up again for some reason.  It seems obvious that are a lot of objective explanations of the loan Hillary took out and the non-importance of "Bill's Deal," but today Frank Rich wasn't interested in objectivity.

Finally, Frank Rich gets around to what he really meant when he said Hillary's team is nasty. He says repeatedly that they are playing the race card:

The campaign’s other most potent form of currency remains its thick deck of race cards. This was all too apparent in the Hallmark show. In its carefully calibrated cross section of geographically and demographically diverse cast members — young, old, one gay man, one vet, two union members — African-Americans were reduced to also-rans. One black woman, the former TV correspondent Carole Simpson, was given the servile role of the meeting’s nominal moderator, Ed McMahon to Mrs. Clinton’s top banana. Scattered black faces could be seen in the audience. But in the entire televised hour, there was not a single African-American questioner, whether to toss a softball or ask about the Clintons’ own recent misadventures in racial politics.

Let's address this piece by piece.  First, I watched this Town Hall too and I certainly didn't get the impression that Carole Simpson was in a servile role.  Second, I know for a fact that the Clinton Team was out beating the bushes looking for supporters to fill these Town Hall events.  The most logical explanation for the lack of black voters and an abundance of Hispanic is that black voters seem to have chosen Obama and Senator Clinton is very popular among Hispanics.  So if the Town Halls are full of Clinton supporters, one could rationally expect more Hispanics and less African Americans.  How Frank Rich missed so obvious a point is a mystery to me.

As to why there were no African American questioners, Frank Rich implies that the Clinton camp avoided them so they would not get asked about "why they played the race card."  Since, as Rich already noted, there were not as many African Americans in the audiences, and since supporters in each location (not the Clinton team) picked the questioner from among themselves, it isn't hard to figure out why there might not have been any African Americans picked to ask a question.  But since the Town Hall also featured questions submitted over the internet, I am curious to know how Frank Rich divined the race of those particular questioners when he says no African Americans asked questions.

And I have to note that in her rallies in California before Super Tuesday, Hillary had a lot of African Americans on display, including Magic Johnson and, most importantly, Maxine Waters.  They played very prominent roles in the rallies, which seems to contradict Rich's accusation that the lack of African Americans in the Town Hall was intentional.  

The main thing that Frank Rich charges the Clintons with nastiness with is race-baiting.  I am curious to know why he thinks the mention of cocaine by Mark Penn is race-baiting, though I did find Penn's comment unappealing to say the least.  But that is really neither here nor there.  Here is Frank Rich's takeaway point to go with his title about a "Brewing Civil War in the Democratic Party":

A race-tinged brawl at the convention, some nine weeks before Election Day, will not be a Hallmark moment. As Mr. Wilkins reiterated to me last week, it will be a flashback to the Democratic civil war of 1968, a suicide for the party no matter which victor ends up holding the rancid spoils.

 

And to this I have to respond that Mr. Rich is giving a very one-sided version of the story. Tim Russert did actually catch the Obama team playing the race card in South Carolina with a four page list of talking points, despite denials by Barack himself that they were doing so.

That list included things that were pointedly not racist in nature, like Bill's use of the word "fairytale" to talk about Obama's record on the war and Hillary's discussion of LBJ and MLK.  The most obvious Obama camp person twisting Bill Clinton's word "fairytale" out of context to play the race card against the Clintons was Donna Brazile.

Michelle also got into the act on this one. (link):

Sometimes we feel it's better not to try at all than to try and fail. These are complicated emotions, left in our heads and hearts from years of struggle, emotions we must face if we're going to overcome as a community if we want to lift ourselves up. We must do it in the face of those who will attempt to play on those emotions for our own purposes, to discourage us from believing what is possible...to dismiss this moment as an illusion, as a fairytale.

Michelle also played the race card on the stump in other ways.  She said "America needs a black president" despite claims by both the Obama campaign and the national media that the Obama candidacy transcends race.  This did get picked up by the media, but they never rode this story like they did some of the Clinton stories they manufactured.

If Frank Rich wants to say there is a war brewing, it seems fair to point out that the Obama camp seems interested in using false charges of racism to inflame black voters against the Clintons.

And if there is a Civil War, it is being fought on two fronts.  In some instances race has played a role.  Hillary won all of MO except for St. Louis and Kansas City.  African American votes gave Obama such a large margin in those two cities that he carried the whole state.  And in other instances it has been a generational war with youth mainly voting for Obama.  In California young Hispanics voted for Obama and older Hispanics for Hillary.  Sometimes it is both racial and generational, as it was in South Carolina.  If there is a war within the party, let's be honest about the full nature of that war.

Tags: Frank Rich (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 202 comments

  •  Maybe he should be criticized for referring (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PamelaD

    to her as Billary.

    Last week? The one about the two-fer.

  •  "Hillary had a lot of African Americans on (22+ / 0-)

    display?"

    You're making Rich's point for him.

    •  He says she didn't have (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pacific John, Vico, TMP, PamelaD, JoeySky18

      any at the Town Hall on purpose.  How does pointing out that there were African Americans in prominent roles at a rally make that point?  I think you're engaging in selective reasoning here.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:28:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In more ways than one. (0+ / 0-)

      "We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America." Barack Obama

      by keeplaughing on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:40:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe 500 commnets criitical of Rich (0+ / 0-)

      Below his column on the Times site. He's called out for a LOT of errors and false interpretations. Here's just one example:

      I attended the town hall meeting that has held in San Francisco (one of the 22 cities). Your article is incorrect in asserting that questions were scripted and that the "cast members" were "carefully calibrated." In San Francisco, we (the group, many of whom were undecided voters) spend an hour writing our own questions, asking them in front of the group, recording them (with white boards), and voting on the question that the group would bring forward to Sen. Clinton. The question chosen was representative of the interests of the group (not scripted). The individual who asked the question was chosen because their question had merit (not because they had joined the Clinton cast). And the question we chose was not as anodyne as you suggest.

      — Mary Ann, San Leandro, CA

      Good work, diarist. Highly recommended.

      •  Ha ha!Times Editors deleting critical comments!!! (0+ / 0-)

        Comments critical of Frank Rich's hit piece.

        The total comments got up to 900 at one point.

        Now they are down below 700 and several are disappearing each minute.

        A lot of the most critical (almost all well-written) are already deleted.

        The pro-Barack/anti-Hillary ones all seem to be still there.

        Hurry over there, folks, before they are ALL gone!!

  •  Why does anyone care what Krugman and Rich (20+ / 0-)

    write about? Think for yourselves. Vote for who you want, not what high paid pundits who think they know everything under the sun writes. NY Times columnists get paid big bucks for tweaking your jollies. Rich is obviously an Obama fan, and Krugman is obviously not. I was a fan of Adlai Stevenson, I got over it.

    You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

    by tazz on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:16:17 AM PDT

    •  Krugman knows a lot about policy (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Fast Pete, Pacific John, Montague, PamelaD

      and economics, that information helps the voter learn about issues.  You seem to be dismissing issues in general with this deeply cynical perspective.  

      I've never seen an Obama supporter give a compelling answer to why Obama has such a weak healthcare proposal (yet still thinks of himself as a progressive) compared to Clinton's....

      •  Here you go (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jimrice, byteb, superba, Empower Ink, anonymit

        I've never seen an Obama supporter give a compelling answer to why Obama has such a weak healthcare proposal (yet still thinks of himself as a progressive) compared to Clinton's....

        •  Not compelling (0+ / 0-)

          This bright young guy is a great debater, and I have no  doubt that he would also be great telling the truth.

            •  A solution (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Molee, PamelaD

              based on letting people opt out is more expensive individually and on average.

              The reason why Medicare and Social Security are most successful programs in government is because we are all invested in their success.

              The guy in the video would be even better if he worked up the opposing argument.

              •  Apples and oranges (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                vbdietz

                Medicare and Social Security are government programs.  As such they do not need to make a profit.  You can not mandate a citizen to increase the wealth of a private corporation.  A private program will always be more expensive than a government program because the private company needs to profit and the government does not.

                Robert Kuttner
                Clinton has what’s known as a mandate. She requires people to get coverage. Obama doesn’t. Clinton and some liberal commentators, like Paul Krugman, have whacked Obama for not having a mandate. I think a mandate is a very bad idea. I think the difference between universal social insurance and a mandate is that universal social insurance, like Medicare, says that, as an American or a permanent resident of the country, you get health insurance, the same way you get Social Security. A mandate takes a social problem and makes it the individual’s problem.

                Robert Kuttner, veteran economics and
                financial journalist, he is a founder and co-editor of the American Prospect magazine and a former investigator for the Senate Banking Committee.
                From Democracy Now

                •  Granny Smith and Red Delicious (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Molee

                  You can not mandate a citizen to increase the wealth of a private corporation.

                  She does not. Neither would Obama right now, tho' to say he's squishy is an understatement.

                  On the main chart of Clinton's plan (page 2) is a public option, open to all, essentially open enrollment in Medicare.

                  And since Medicare is at least 20% less expensive per patient care hour that for profit insurance, it is very likely that her program, in association with universal coverage, would drive enrollment away from private insurers.

                  Obama's plan does not do this. His support for a public plan has been half-hearted, and is likely to be negotiated away once such a threat to profit roils a full-court press from the Harry and Louise forces.

                  Either we are all in this together, or we aren't.

                •  Of Course You Can Mandate a Citizen (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Molee

                  What do you think compulsory auto insurance is all about?

                  I support socialized water

                  by jabney on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 12:13:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  I've never seen a Clinton supporter honest enough (5+ / 0-)

        to admit that Obama's health care proposal is just as strong as anyone's.  Mandates are a corporatist cause, benefitting corporations, not Americans.  Obama's plan has at least a chance of passing without having to amend the constitution.

        "We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America." Barack Obama

        by keeplaughing on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:43:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Krugman puts his pants on one leg at a time (0+ / 0-)

        I don't care what college he went to, what his previous jobs were. I have my own opinions and my own mind. I taught college courses and know how to research things for myself. Give people credit for having their own likes and tastes. The world was not created by Paul Krugman. Sorry, even though I respect him, I respect other economists just as much who have different ideas than he has. If he was so fricking smart, how come he's not running for office?

        You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

        by tazz on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:58:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not so simple (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GW Chimpzilla, zbctj52, PamelaD

      By that same logic, campaign advertising "shouldn't" work, as we should all ignore it as one-sided, paid-for propaganda, and do our own independent research into candidates and their position on issues.

      But the world doesn't work that way.  Columnists (and TV ads) do exert a lot of influence on people, even in the Age of the Intertubes.

      •  I do (0+ / 0-)

        I ignore every single political ad and pundit. I don't watch debates often because they are no longer debates, they spin their campaign rhetoric into a couple minutes of bloviation. I research for myself. I find out what is important to me. I search the archives, look at their voting records, and I try to gain some perspective about their family life because to me, a person is only as great as how they behave as a spouse and a parent. If politics is more important than your own family, I don't want to deal with you, democrat or no democrat, average person or movie star.

        You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

        by tazz on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:15:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I would prefer that someone who is (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      PamelaD

      an economist and writes about the economics of their policies be read.  After that it is all opinion.  Rich is basically an art critic turned politico and Krugman is an economist at Yale.

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:47:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  IDK, to balance out Krugman? (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Christin, byteb, brklyngrl, Led Nudd

    I'm over thinking that the media is going to try and be objective in this race.  They all have their horses and their biases show through.

    Get used to it.

    •  Big Difference (7+ / 0-)

      Krugman writes from facts, Rich writes from emotion.

      •  Facts? (8+ / 0-)

        Like having a health insurance mandate in inherently progressive? That's not a fact, no matter how many times Krugman says it is.

        Rich is a theater critic. Krugman is an economist. Of course they will have different writing styles.

      •  B f'ffing s, Athena (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        StrayCat

        Frank Rich is more of a "big picture" guy writing about the convergence of culture, politics and media.  Hard to quantify, but hardly makes him an irrelevant shill.  Krugman has a more narrow ideological perspective which doesn't necessarily translate to the real world. Both share a rightful place.

        Me?  I'm a big picture person.

      •  Robert Reich (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        superba, Empower Ink

        Clinton's Secretary of Treasury disagrees with Paul Krugman.

        Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

        by missliberties on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:42:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Paul Volcher endorsed Obama (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          superba, missliberties, Empower Ink

          former Chairman of the Fed

          Krugman is good but there are other fine economists who think highly of Obama.

          You are a child of the universe; no less than the trees and the stars... Desiderata

          by byteb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:47:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, because Reich thinks the disparaty in wealth (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          missliberties, Montague

          in America is due to technological advances, whereas true progressives believe it is due to regulation or rather deregulation promulgated primarily by the GOP administrations of the last 35 years (actually the last 27 years). The American Prospect's Robert Kuttner writes about this.

          Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

          by hairspray on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:54:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Krugman is an old fashioned (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            hairspray

            liberal.

            I guess he balances out Frank Rich who seems seriously pissed at the Clintons race baiting divisive political positions...... now pitting Latinos against Blacks.

            Why can't they just say the poor........... the embraces all  colors and it is economics that is the problem.

            Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

            by missliberties on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:08:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I really wonder at all of the acusations of (0+ / 0-)

              race baiting.  I didn't take the MLK comment or the "fairly tale" comment or even the Jessie Jackson comment as race baiting.  What Bob kerry and Andrew Cuomo said  were other comments that were taken out of context and promoted as race baiting. And these were not Clinton strategists. The statement by Bill Shaheen was inappropriate, and he was fired for it. However, it was immediately portrayed as a ploy by the Anti-Hillary people. I simply find so much of this not to have much substance.  Maybe I am nuts, but the anti_hillary bias on this site makes me quite leery of the "race baiting" charges.

              Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

              by hairspray on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:27:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hillary is in control (0+ / 0-)

                trust me.

                She knows what her surrogates are doing.

                If there was zero problem, and this was all so innocent as you wonder about, we would not see Bill's new changed role on the campaign trail.

                Hillary is a decent capable woman, but the path she has taken to achieve her ambitions make me question to what length will she go to win. Some see that as a plus, some as a minus.

                Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

                by missliberties on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:33:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So far what you have said is your perception (0+ / 0-)

                  and I see a bias on this site. Why should I trust you any more than anyone else.  I also talk to lots of non political types who are confused by the media and its spin.  They too wonder about all this "race baiting".  A neighbor said to me the other day "I don't know how you cannot say that a state like SC which has a high number of African Americans will go for Obama" and have it turned one way or the other. It is a fact.

                  Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

                  by hairspray on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:59:22 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Vote for Hillary (0+ / 0-)

                    with a clear conscience.

                    I can certainly decide on my own who I will support based on my own perceptions.

                    If you don't like the bias here, then find someplace that you prefer more.

                    It isn't my fault that lots and lots of folks are for Obama.

                    It's just the way it is. No need to get a persecution complex over it.

                    Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

                    by missliberties on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 12:46:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Clinton USED to be popular with (0+ / 0-)

                    the blacks in So. Carolina, before Bill opened his mouth.

                    Them's just the facts, mam.

                    Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

                    by missliberties on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 12:47:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And what comment are you referring to? (0+ / 0-)

                      The one about Jesse Jackson?  That one came the day of the primary and wasn't seen until the next day.  So what other comment did he make that could legitimately be called racist?  The "fairytale" comment?  If you are going to make a statement like that, I'm going to ask you to provide an example.  I think the truth is that the Obama camp intentionally twisted his words and convinced SC blacks that he said something he didn't actually say.  And I have a link in the diary to discussion of Obama admitting to have a four page talking points list with stuff like that on it.  What do you have?

                      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                      by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 01:25:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  All I have is Bill's silence (0+ / 0-)

                        Why is did he change?

                        I see you are passionate....... !

                        The thing is if I say to you....... wingnut, it is something you and I understand because if is a code word of sorts.

                        Many of the words that were used, by Clinton and their surrogates were code words to the black community that had certain negative meanings. Ask Jim Clyburn...... who certainly is no hack.

                        I don't think the Clinton's are racist, but I do think they used race for political advantage.

                        If you'd like to say the same of Michelle...... okay, she recognizes a code word. Bill might not have meant to say it, just like Shuster might have said stump instead of pimp. But Shuster is gone, and Bill has changed his style.

                        I think Hillary is a fine a capable woman. So don't get all worked up. I am just for Obama......... if that's okay with you.

                        Love and kisses.

                        Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

                        by missliberties on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 02:02:08 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It's fine by me (0+ / 0-)

                          if you support Obama. But I am curious why you think Bill's use of "fairytale" was racist when it was obvious he meant Obama's war record, not his candidacy.  And I am curious why it was racist for Hillary to say it took both MLK and LBJ to get the Civil Rights Act passed.  What I am saying is that the Obama campaign took non-racist comments, and pretended they were racially tinged.  "Fairytale" is not one of those code words.  The Obama camp lied to blacks by implying the Clintons both said something racist when in fact they didn't.  There were comments that could rightly have been taken as racist, like the "shuck and jive" one by Andrew Cuomo.  But the Obama campaign went beyond that and made false claims of racism to inflame the black community.

                          I want us all to be together at the end of this thing.  But the Obama people are going to have to start being honest with us about what Obama is really doing and stop pretending he is as pure as the driven snow.

                          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                          by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 02:27:43 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It doesn't matter what I think (0+ / 0-)

                            it matters that some African Americans found these comments belittling. That's just the facts.

                            It's no different than Shuster being fired for using common slang. Some find it belittling.

                            Fair or no. That just the facts.

                            Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

                            by missliberties on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 02:51:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  I think that African Americans were most (0+ / 0-)

                          assuredly going to vote overwhelmingly for one of their own.  I have  long term friends in the AA community who said as much.  However, rather than appear to be ungrateful to the Clintons for all of their support over the years, they were looking for a reason to jump ship. The same thing happened with John Edward's suppporters. David Mizner has a thoughtful diary up right now about his "Final thoughts on the Edwards campaign", in which he ponders the dilemma of John's message and the people who flocked to Obama rather than him.  It is quite good.  You would be wise to think more carefully about how you lash out at people who disagree with you.  Your argument so far has been superficial and makes me dislike and fear an Obama presidency more and more.

                          Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

                          by hairspray on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:40:10 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Deregulation is what destroyed (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            hairspray, PamelaD

            accountability and created the upswing in wealth disparity.

  •  The guy who wrote "More Obama Fairytales" is (21+ / 0-)

    complaining about bias.  That's "rich".

    •  Rather a Starkly Clear Diary History nt (5+ / 0-)

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:21:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you can't argue with the facts (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        hairspray, Fabian, zbctj52

        shoot the messenger.

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:30:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This is really lame (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Fabian

        on your part.  Have you forgotten how long we have both been around here?  Take a look in the comments here from three years ago and you will see your own name saying it is a good diary.  I have my opinion and I have tried to be fair and I have apologized when I offended a lot of people.  This is a totally unfair remark on your part.

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:03:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If you're going to (0+ / 0-)

      use the "label and dismiss" strategy then you have to at least read what I wrote the next day here.:

      First, I want to apologize for calling Iceberg Slim a liar here.  I do believe that she is wrong when she says the Obama team didn't play the race card, but I should have given her the benefit of the doubt.  Emotions run high during the primary season and one day soon we will have to work together.  I also want to apologize for a diary that was perceived as an attack on Michelle Obama. (link)

      I did not intend it as an attack, but I can understand how it could have been perceived as such.  I should have worded it better.  My main point was that the media has not treated the Obamas with the same scrutiny as it has the Clintons.  The two pieces that people took the most exception with raised questions that I felt sure would be raised if Obama becomes the nominee and for which I felt the Obama supporters could find good answers.  My only excuse for the poor wording is that I stayed up almost all night researching that piece.  So I was really tired.  And after I posted the diary I had to go teach a full day of classes.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:58:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder why the Clinton campaign (5+ / 0-)

    is having such a hard time with the African American vote then? They led that vote until just a few weeks ago... Your theory seems to be that either its Frank Rich's fault or black voters are suckers who don't know racism when they see it. I think that is highly dubious, to be generous.

    Frankly, I think Times writers who write about the primary should be forced to disclose their support. Rich balances out Krugman. So, no biggie.

    As an aside - HIllary says in her stump speech that some of the women sho support her were born when women didn't have the vote. I have no problem with that appeal to identity/ tug on the heartstrings, so why would I have a problem with Michelle Obama saying we need a Black president

    •  Let's think about this (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Vico, hairspray, PamelaD

      You say that the swing of African-American voters in SC to Obama can't be explained by campaign tactics--there has to be something genuine to it.  What about the swing of the white working class to Reagan in 1980?  These things happen, and they happen because of conscious strategies.

      For heaven's sake, there is an actual Obama campaign document that described what they were going to do!  It's not clear to me what kind of evidence would convince you.

      -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

      by Rich in PA on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:32:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Don't put words in my mouth (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Vico, zbctj52

      Your theory seems to be that either its Frank Rich's fault or black voters are suckers who don't know racism when they see it.

      That isn't what I said at all.  What I am saying is that when Frank Rich accuses the Clintons of race-baiting and implies that the Obama camp is not race-baiting he skips over a lot of the facts on his way to making that point.  How hard is that to understand?

      Whatever else you want to read into what I say is up to you, but I didn't say what you accused me of.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:33:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So what are you saying? (0+ / 0-)

        Why did that big switch in the African American vote happen? I'm positing that it was partly due to the Clinton campaign's race baiting, combined with voters getting to know Obama better.

        You give a few examples - all of which I would classify as either identity politics (which the Clinton campaign has used as well, and I have no problem with from either candidate) or push-back. Could you give me an example of the Obama campaign's supposed race baiting that doesn't fall into one of those two categories?

        •  I've made my point clearly. (0+ / 0-)

          You are free to make whatever other point you want.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:04:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm sorry, I thought this was (0+ / 0-)

            a discussion forum. I'm finding your argument either less than convincing or quite unclear. You're welcome not to care about that, of course.

            •  So then, you are either not aware of or (0+ / 0-)

              choose to ignore how race was used by Obama and his surrogates to turn African American voters against the Clintons?

              •  I'm still waiting on that example. (0+ / 0-)

                Michelle Obama saying "We need a Black President" and the Obama campaign deciding to push back against things the Clinton campaign brought up just aren't doing it for me. As I said upthread, both candidates have used identity politics to some extent, and I don't have a problem with that from either of them.

                On a totally different note, your comment is a good example of what I mean about painting African American voters as suckers. You seem to be suggesting that AA voters couldn't judge for themselves whether they felt the Clinton campaign was race baiting, and instead substituted the judgment of the Obama campaign. That raises as many questions as it answers, but the obvious one is why they chose the believe the Obama campaign rather than the Clinton campaign?

                •  Please, all people are just as susceptible to (0+ / 0-)

                  media distortions,  It's just the nature of our society.  And what you just did with my comment is exactly what the media and the Obama campaign have done with the Clintons comments.  The Clintons were not race baiting ~ and yet, the spin beat the truth.

                  You choose to read a 'racist' undertone into my comment ~ shame on you, to echo the words of the democrats first two-term President in a very long time

            •  My point, no more, no less: (0+ / 0-)

              What I am saying is that when Frank Rich accuses the Clintons of race-baiting and implies that the Obama camp is not race-baiting he skips over a lot of the facts on his way to making that point.

              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

              by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:37:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Absolutely right (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bumblebums, superba, Empower Ink, red 83

      and I do agree with Rich's comments about the Clintons injecting racial divisions into the campaign. It reminds me of that prominent evangelical leader who made inferences about the evils of the gay life style, and it turned out he had to resign because of a gay relationship. The Clintons have been held up for years as seeing past race, even the comments about Bill Clinton being the first Black President played to that. Now that their most fierce competition comes from an African American male, all of a sudden race is emerging as an issue, injected by of all people "the First Black President". The way I see it the Clintons and their people, actually think blacks, Hispanics and even woman, most especially older woman are stupid. They say things, and worse yet, send talking points to their friends in the media that plant ideas and negative stereotypes in the minds of the American people, and then appear to take the higher road. It is all such a freaking game, a serious game, and at some point it could be come a dangerously serious game. It is true in inner cities, there is a rivalry between Hispanics, and blacks, let me be more clear, poor Hispanic illegal immigrants and poor African Americans. I see no real rivalry between middle class Hispanics and middle class African Americans, as the election of black leaders with heavy Hispanic votes indicate. Just the suggestion in the media, alerts those who feel that rivalry and are less educated to think this must be true, they are saying it on the news. Peppering audiences with black faces, only says to me, "see I do have African Americans who support me. Parading out Maxine Waters as a primary supporter, send the same message. Telling audiences that she has the support of an 80 year old woman, because this woman wants to live to see a woman President, also appeals to the less intelligent voters. It should make no difference to the voting public, who is black who is white who is male and who is female. The only considerations should be, who is better qualified to lead America, who is putting forth the best plan for ending the war, for health care reform, for actually helping the suffering middle class. Who can get things done, and further for Democrats who can win and capture the White House in 2008. In a perfect world, race, class and gender should not matter, albeit this is not a perfect world and those prejudices exist, however as a responsible candidate for the highest office in the land, you should not prey on those prejudices to win. The Clintons do, and that is the shame of all of this.

      •  I'm going to ignore (0+ / 0-)

        this because it is obvious you didn't even read my side of the story.  All you are doing is preaching at me instead of listening.  If there is a Civil War, it is this preaching and not listening that will mostly be at fault.  If you want to have a conversation instead of preaching I will be happy to do that.

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:06:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not preaching at all, just (0+ / 0-)

          my opinion. I did listen to your side of the story, and I don't think this campaign will be the catalyst to a civil war, but it does nothing but damage to the Democratic party. When we have a former President and his wife who is a candidate perceived to be race baiting, and both are very well respected Democrats, then that is the way it will be seen. Do I think the Clintons in their heart are racists, not really. The fact are, this is a history making election, because this is the first time we have these choices presented to us. Since it is historic, both sides need to be so much more careful in what tactics they use to try to win. As a progressive thinking woman, I want to see both these candidates present themselves above all the racist and sexist stereotypes. That is the America I want, where all people are considered equal, no matter their sex or the color of their skin. I want my grandchildren to grow up in an America where it will not be history making the next time an African American or a woman decide to seek the highest office in the land. It will be just another one of those Presidential candidates making promises they can not keep. Because this is history making, perhaps that is the reason every word is being scrutinized, and everything put under this microscope. I just think every candidate needs to be more careful in the approaches they employ to capture votes. Imagine for one minute Barack winning the nomination and John McCain and the Republicans using the same tactics as the Clinton campaign has been demonstrating, would you call them racists. Also imagine Hillary playing up the fact that she is a woman, the first woman President, do you think it is going to win her any Republican votes comparing a woman to a war hero as Commander in Chief? This type of campaigning is not good, and I am sorry if I sound like I am preaching. To me it is so maddening, I am a woman who would love nothing better than to have a woman President, and I am also progressive thinking and I think this African American man would be great too. I hate to see either of their chances screwed just for the sake of defeating each other, and ultimately making the Democratic party look bad.

      •  Damned either way. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        zbctj52

        If I read Rich's column correctly, in part, he was pointing to the make-up of the town hall crowd as not having a lot of African-Americans and since she hand-picked the crowd, this is seen as evidence of playing the race card.

        On the other hand if she trots out people like Maxine Waters or Michael Jordan, she is seen as playing the race card.

        Given the fact that she is of primarily anglo-saxon heritage, she probably is racist.  It is a fact of life in the US.  The question then is whether she is aware of that and tries to overcome it.  

        The fact is that having an African-American as a serious presidential contender puts the whole issue of racism front and center. Even if race is discounted as a factor in making the decision for whom to vote, the fact is that the question of how race is addressed is  in itself evidence of racism.  

        I see Rich's column as a self-fulfilling prophecy.  The more speculation there is about a racial divide at the convention and the more tea leaves are read to interpret actions that were in fact race neutral as racist acts, the more likely it is that race will be an issue and not in a good way.

        •  I think the point Rich was trying to make (0+ / 0-)

          is, were these actions race neutral. Maybe my perception is dead wrong, but that is the way I read it. Every time I see a Hillary audience or see she has another African American endorser, I think are those people planted in the audience, and why is she making such a point of the African American endorsements. There is absolutely no doubt, after Iowa when all the Clinton old-timers shared the stage with Hillary, and were roundly criticized that this crew doesn't look like change, they were quickly removed from the back-drop and replaced with young faces. We all know how image consciences the Clinton campaign is, and it makes one wonder when you see African Americans in the audience, and as endorsements if they too are being used as props. The whole Bill Clinton/Jessie Jackson remarks rung a bell and it is difficult to unring that bell. When it appears you are tying to do just that with black faces peppered in your audiences, and black endorsements, one can not help but wonder if that is race neutral.

          •  Marketing and the Message (0+ / 0-)

            Each candidate, whether they are Democrats or Republican have a message and are trying to sell that message.  Part of that is image and image consciousness.  Of course the more obviously contrived the image appears, the less successful the sales pitch will be.  

            Is it racist to want to appeal to a diverse group by making sure that the audience that appears on camera has a certain look?  Probably so because in the broadest  sense of the word, a racist is someone who takes into account race when making decisions.  But the question to be asked is whether or not Hillary, in this case, is trying to sell an image which is divorced from the reality of her actions throughout her life.  The African Americans who endorse her don't think so.

            •  I would think, they would be (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Santarita

              the best to judge that.  I don't pretend to judge for them. It is their call, not mine. What I do object to is the marketing of a candidate. I would rather less time is spent on the whole marketing aspect, and more time spend on message. The whole marketing of a Presidential candidate reduces them to nothing more than corn flakes and minimizes the importance of it all. To me this is very important, and I don't want to be shown images, I want to hear substance.

  •  Frank, Get Some Help (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pacific John, Vico, hairspray, zbctj52

    If it's Sunday, it's Rich against Hillary.  His stash of resentments is endless enough to supply many columns.  Why the NYT gives him a free pass to lie down on the couch and work out his issues with Hillary is beyond me.  Then again, much of MSM is acting out these days - and Hillary is one giant target, against which all manner of tantrums can be thrown.

    Obama would never be subject to the same kind of diary, seething with disdain and contempt.

    The double standard is alive and well.

  •  More proof she's battle hardened? (15+ / 0-)

    When Clinton supporters piss and moan over every minor slight, you don't make much an argument for her being tough and ready to stand up to the Republican attack machine.

    McCain's 3AM ad is really a Flomax commercial.

    by jhecht on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:20:05 AM PDT

  •  Why does HIllary Clinton... (5+ / 0-)

    insist on not giving a damn about the party welfare?

    An agnostic not because I don't know if there's a God, but because I don't care.

    by filmgeek83 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:20:30 AM PDT