Daily Kos

November Swing Voters: Advantage Hillary

Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:52:24 PM PDT

After the Florida primary I wrote a diary in which I looked at how the vote broke down along demographic groups – specifically among traditional "swing" voters in that primary – http://www.dailykos.com/...

We are now many primaries and caucuses ahead, and I wanted to look again at where swing voters are in terms of partisan preference – this time looking at all the states which have voted so far and for which exit polls are available – http://www.cnn.com/...

The MSM is constantly feeding us the theme that Obama would somehow be more "electable" in the general election because he overwhelmingly attracts independent voters, and if Hillary is the nominee, then McCain will get the bulk of the independents.  

There are two things wrong with the above proposition – 1) Even though Obama is attracting more independents, Hillary is not doing bad either; for one thing,  she is attracting more independents than McCain ....  but more importantly - 2) Independents are only one subset of traditional swing voters, the other subsets being Hispanics, white Catholics, white women and suburban voters.  Among the last four subsets above, Hillary is comfortably beating Obama (as well as McCain).

When looking at exit polls from the 2004 general election, five swing voter groups jump out:

http://www.cnn.com/...

Independents: Bush 48% - Kerry 49%

Hispanics: Bush 44% - Kerry 53%

Catholics: Bush 52% - Kerry 47% (no numbers are provided for "white Catholics" but they voted even more lopsidedly in favor of Bush as the total number of "Catholics" here includes Hispanics)

White Women: Bush 55% - Kerry 44%

Suburban Voters: Bush 52% - Kerry 47%

From the above 2004 numbers it’s interesting to note that Kerry actually beat Bush among independents (as well as Hispanics).  However, Bush comfortably beat Kerry among Catholics, white women and suburban voters.  Thus, it can be logically argued that Catholics, white women, suburban voters and Hispanics are as important as independent voters (if not more so) in order to guarantee Democratic success in November.

Looking at available exit polls from all the states which have voted so far (exit polls are available for roughly 90% of the primary/caucus vote), we can see how swing voters are performing (since Obama was not on the ballot in Michigan, I have excluded the results from that state).  I have included the estimated raw numbers among the various demographic groups based on actual state result numbers combined with exit poll numbers.  I am including only the two remaining Democrats and the remaining viable Republican.  

It should be noted that in all of the states I looked at, self-identified independents were included in both the Democratic and Republican primary numbers, even though some states/state parties officially limited their voters only to partisans.

Among Independents:

Obama 1,761,000
Hillary 1,253,000
McCain 1,012,000

First, it should be noted that Hillary seems to be attracting more independents than McCain.  Second, even though Obama is still doing best among independent voters, Hillary has attracted 71% of the number Obama has attracted (1,253,000 ÷ 1,761,000).

Among Hispanics: :

Hillary 1,407,000
Obama 765,000
McCain 271,000

The numbers here clearly favor the Democrats, and Hillary in particular.  Obama is performing much better than McCain among Hispanics.  However, he is attracting only 54% of the number that voted for Hillary.

Among White Catholics: :

Hillary 1,721,000
McCain 1,050,000
Obama 944,000

What’s interesting here is that McCain has apparently attracted more white Catholics than Obama.  Obama is getting only about 55% of the number of white Catholics who are voting for Hillary.

Among White Women: :

Hillary 3,741,000
Obama 2,143,000
McCain  N/A

Most of the Republican exit polls did not include numbers for white women, but based on several earlier polls, Democrats were handily beating Republicans in this category.  As you can see, among Democrats Obama is attracting only about 57% of the number Hillary is attracting among this group.

Among Suburban Voters: :

Hillary 4,305,000
Obama 3,779,000
McCain 2,737,000

Here, the numbers between Hillary and Obama are closest, though Hillary still wins.

Looking at all these numbers at one glance, it can be seen that Hillary is arguably better positioned for the general election.  Among suburban voters, the two Democrats are close, with Hillary having an edge.  Among independents, it’s advantage Obama, with Hillary performing at 71% of Obama’s performance level here.  But among Hispanics, white women and white Catholics, it’s advantage Hillary, with Obama performing at only 54-57% of Hillary’s performance level.  Overall, I’d say advantage Hillary among the crucial swing voters we will need to win in November.

Tags: Hillary, Obama, Swing Voters (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 71 comments

  •  Wow does this not hold up at all: (24+ / 0-)

    Gallup from Today:
    Obama 50, McCain 46
    McCain 49, Clinton 48

  •  Well (19+ / 0-)

    1. The theme that Obama does better with independents and is more electable is based on polls showing that he does better among independents and is more electable.
    1. The results from the Florida primary are meaningless.  It wasn't a real election.
    •  The results of the Florida primary (0+ / 0-)

      came from actual voters casting ballots, which is always more meaningful (for purposes aside from the DNC Convention rules) than any poll. (And really, if Obama had won, I strongly suspect people here would be demanding that Dean seat the delegation and count their votes.) That doesn't mean Obama can't carry Florida, it just shows that Hillary won more votes in a peculiar situation...we have no way of knowing what would have happened if there had been normal campaigning; my educated guess is that she would still have won, though by a narrower margin.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:50:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A critical flaw (21+ / 0-)

    lies in your assumption that Obama won't get the votes of those that are selecting Hillary in the primaries.

    Do you think Democratic Latinos are going to vote for McCain after all the immigrant-bashing going on in the GOP primaries? Do you think Democratic women are going to sit out with the future of Roe v Wade in doubt? No.

    On the other hand, you sort of dismiss his gigantic lead among independents. Why would you do that? I can't say I know what's in these people's heads, but a lot of them are first-time voters or people who have never voted for a Democrat before. It's not a big leap to assume that, no, Hillary won't retain 80% of these. Maybe a lot fewer.

    "I voted for Bush in 2000," said Kutcher. "Boy, did I get punk'd."

    by samlang on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:56:11 PM PDT

  •  You can't compare primary (10+ / 0-)

    and general votes like that.  They're wildly different demographics.

    The head-to-heads, little as they mean now, are the only predictive tool that makes any sense.

    Seek first and final principles at The Mean Free Path.

    by Cream Puff on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:56:25 PM PDT

  •  Sigh. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BasharH, NMLib

    You need to ask yourself:

    What good is a national analysis to a state-by-state election process?

  •  Voters Are Discovering Hillary's Senate Record (12+ / 0-)

    At first I couldn't believe it.  But here it is - here's Hillary's body of work as a US Senator. It suggests that either she's lazy or was afraid to commit to significant legislation.

    Senator Clinton, who has served only one full term (6yrs.), and another year campaigning, has managed to author and pass into law, (20) twenty pieces of legislation in her first six years.These bills can be found on the website of the Library of Congress (www.thomas.loc.gov), but to save you trouble, I'll post them here for you.

    1. Establish the Kate Mullany National Historic Site.
    1. Support the goals and ideals of Better Hearing and Speech Month.
    1. Recognize the Ellis Island Medal of Honor.
    1. Name courthouse after Thurgood Marshall.
    1. Name courthouse after James L. Watson.
    1. Name post office after Jonn A. O'Shea.
    1. Designate Aug. 7, 2003, as National Purple Heart Recognition Day.
    1. Support the goals and ideals of National Purple Heart Recognition Day.
    1. Honor the life and legacy of Alexander Hamilton on the bicentennial of his death.
    1. Congratulate the Syracuse Univ. Orange Men's Lacrosse Team on winning the championship.
    1. Congratulate the Le Moyne College Dolphins Men's Lacrosse Team on winning the championship.
    1. Establish the 225th Anniversary of the American Revolution Commemorative Program.
    1. Name post office after Sergeant Riayan A. Tejeda.
    1. Honor Shirley Chisholm for her service to the nation and express condolences on her death.
    1. Honor John J. Downing, Brian Fahey, and Harry Ford, firefighters who lost their lives on duty. Only five of Clinton's bills are, more substantive.
    1. Extend period of unemployment assistance to victims of 9/11.
    1. Pay for city projects in response to 9/11
    1. Assist landmine victims in other countries.
    1. Assist family caregivers in accessing affordable respite care.
    1. Designate part of the National Forest System in Puerto Rico as protected in the wilderness preservation system.

    This is not a distinguished legislative record, and is certainly not presidential material.  Where is the bold, important legislation?  Where is the health care legislation?  Hillary has had over 12 years to work on health care.  Where are the results?

    "I've been an oilman all my life, but this is one crisis we can't drill our way out of" --T. Boone Pickens

    by bincbom on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:58:10 PM PDT

  •  thanks for the diary silver spring (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eagle5

    Good job. This only confirms what I suspected. Hillary has the advantage after this month with the majority of the caucus states finished.

    Everyone can get back to their Hillary bashing now. Carry on.

    'I don't want any commies in my car. Christians either!' Repo Man

    by Psychotronicman on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:01:32 PM PDT

  •  Independents is the only group (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Desroko, swalker007

    where this info means anything.

    Other groups would need to be divided into registered Dems, Reps or Indeps before these numbers had any real meaning for the GE.

  •  This is totally meaningless. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BasharH, costello7

    You are assumming that hispanics and white women will necessarily abandon Obama and vote for McCain in the fall.

  •  What should worry Dems.... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    TX Dem in DC

    In Louisiana, 50% of those who voted for Obama, stated they would not vote for Hillary in the general.  And 2/3 of those who voted for Hillary stated they would not vote for Obama.  

    If I could give Obama a piece of advice...DO NOT HAVE BLACK POLITICIANS on TV speaking for you.  Use Claire, Tim Kaine and others as much as possible.

  •  Ignores inconvenient facts (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    vlajos, jhecht, BasharH, Particle Noun

    I will support Hillary if she is the nominee.  Having said that, I see no way she will be the nominee.  Hillary energizes the Republicans to vote.  They would love to revisit the 90's and talk about blue dresses, impeachment and Bill coming back in the White House.  

    Obama energizes the Democratics.  Have you seen the voter turnout this season?  Granted, George Bush is a motivating factor but the GOTV operations for Obama have been far superior to Hillary.  

    Why would we nominate someone who will energize our opposition?  

    A little common sense goes a long way.

    Fox is to "news" as WWE is to "wrestling."

    by skisb on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:14:33 PM PDT

  •  ok. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Desroko, BasharH, swalker007

    this merely shows that certain groups choose hillary over obama. not that they'd choose mccain over obama.

    if you were right the polls would show it in dem. v rep. matchups...

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses | Buy M.I.A.'s Kala! (No, really. Please!)

    by Addison on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:16:16 PM PDT

  •  Despite the flames from the Obama... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alice in Florida

    supporters...nice diary and good analysis...this election will not be a cakewalk for either candidate on the Democratic side...and they both have electoral advantages and disadvantages...

    Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

    by dvogel001 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:16:31 PM PDT

    •  No. To argue that voting patterns of demographic. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      onanyes, Mia Dolan, costello7, haruki

      .... groups in a party primary will mirror the much broader general election electorate is quite silly.

      This analysis essentially ignores the most critical bloc of voters - true swing voters, who do not vote in party primaries.

      Just because some white Catholics vote for Clinton in a Democratic primary doesn't mean their 'swing' brethren will necessarily pull the lever for her.

      A better analysis would use the subsets of general election polls. For example, Latinos in a CA general election match up. How do they vote?

      •  To argue that either... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Alice in Florida

        Democrat has a lock or an automatic loss in the GE at this point in time is silly...

        Here is a poll April 2004 Kerry vs Bush 49% - 41%...another meaningless poll...

        http://www.cbsnews.com/...

        Here is another interesting bit of history...

        http://worldnetdaily.com/...

        Rasmussen finds, also, Republicans might have a challenge with its aim of persuading voters Kerry is a Massachusetts liberal. Just 37 percent see him as politically liberal, and a narrow plurality see him as a moderate.

        I found this quote especially refreshing about reminding everyone about the history of the RWSM...Rasmussen (Right Leaning Pollster) saying that the Republicans would have trouble convincing people that he is a MA Liberal...well we all know how that turned out...no matter who is the nominee...we can expect more of that...

        Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

        by dvogel001 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:44:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um... where did I say anything about that? (0+ / 0-)

          Just because I think this diary's analysis is junk, doesn't mean I subscribe to the fantasies of Obamaland. Chill the fuck out.

          My only point was that a GE demographic sample is more relevant than a primary sample. For obvious reasons - swing voters don't vote in primaries.

          Fuck. I'm getting tired of every post having an extended meaning because of silly season. Sheesh! I write something and a whole bunch of garbage is apparently implied as well.

  •  The voter is a curious creature (0+ / 0-)

    Nice job with the compilation by the way.  Always nice to see Democrats opening up a can of whup-ass on Republicans.

    This is no fault of yours, but there is no way you can factor in how voters in future primary states feel after watching the ebb and flow of a nominating process.  For example, the knock on the later primary calendar before this election year has been that by Super Tuesday, the nominee had already been decided.  Voters just go about voting for whomever they perceive as the nominee, helped out by the party and the media.

    There is no way to factor in what I believe is a pretty important part about how voters do their calculus when it comes to choosing a candidate.  For all we know, the Super Tuesday voters who voted for Clinton may have thought that she was inevitable and didn't give Obama enough of a look.

    And now for the future primaries, for all we know, these voters are now taking a closer look, thanks to the failure of the "inevitability" storyline and the rise of Obama's campaign, when the Clinton campaign clearly believed that they wouldn't be campaigning after Super Tuesday (little ground organization (aside from endorsements) in future primary states, little campaign funds leftover, a change in leadership for the campaign).

    It will be interesting if you compare the Super Tuesday and pre-Super Tuesday data you have with post-Super Tuesday data coming up within a month to see if those numbers shift at all.  My guess is that they will shift and they will shift towards Obama.

    Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

    by BasharH on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:18:17 PM PDT

  •  Yes (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    haruki

    lets ignore the numbers and facts and lets go with our  personal feelings about who's more electable.

    No wonder why democrats lose so many elections. They can't add simple math. Dont worry, eve nthe SD will see the numbers soon and the bulk will start getting behind Obama, he knows it. Don't believe me, just listen to the only rational person in the MSM on this, Chuck Todd.

    I don't want a bigger government, I want an effective government!

    by KingGeorgetheTurd on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:18:20 PM PDT

  •  One big problem with your analysis (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Tanya, KingGeorgetheTurd

    and that is that Hillary Clinton is known by every single voter in this country.  If she is not leading McCain among these groups now, she is not going to in November.  If anything she will see some real erosion in her numbers as Republican leaning independents(who like Obama) start rallying to McCain after the convention.  The problem with Hillary is that she has no place to go but down in polls.  

    •  That's not true (0+ / 0-)

      She has succeeded in going up in the polls in the past, and if she had the nomination (big if) could no doubt do it again. As for Obama, a lot of the positive feeling he is getting (aside from those who actively and enthusiastically support him) comes from the "new guy" effect--Americans are prone to be very positive towards candidates they know nothing about, preferring to assume the best until they've heard otherwise. Once the RW Wurlitzer gets going, they will have heard a whole lot otherwise.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:08:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Numbers not in Hillary's favor... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Mia Dolan
    1. Contributions received
    1. Votes cast
    1. States won
    1. Pledged delegates

    If Obama goes undefeated in February, I think Hillary loses if she loses March 4th.

  •  catholics????? (0+ / 0-)

    saw that demographic on cnn too - simply bizarre.

    we're democrats - let's be different than the wack right and pay attention to what matters.

    Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

    by jj24 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:54:18 PM PDT

    •  I would tend to agree (0+ / 0-)

      There was a time when Catholics were discriminated against and thus a core Democratic group, but now I think their income/education/ethnic group is more relevant to their political leanings.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:11:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is bad math! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Mia Dolan

    You are parsing the vote too much my friend. I am a Republican (moderate and unhappy) who will be voting for Obama. I am the perfect example why your math is messed up. It doesn't matter that Hillary Clinton is doing better among white women...Duh. She is a white woman. And those are Democrat white women voting for her. He will get those votes. She is beating him with Suburban voters? What does that even mean? Anyway, those are Democrat suburban voters. He will get their votes. White Catholics? Again, you are missing the point. They are Democrat white Catholics. i'm sure they will still want the democrat to be in the Whitehouse. He will get their votes. Hispanics? Do you think they will vote for a Republican? He will get their votes. This is the essence of the argument that so many Hillary voters cannot understand. Their are two segments of votes she will not get that he does have. Young people, and Independents. Why because young people don't care so much if they vote for a Democrat or Rebublican. They want to vote for change. That vote will go to sleep on Hillary if she is the Democratic Party nominee. They won't vote for McCain, but they aren't going to drive through a Maine snowstorm to vote for Hillary either. And she cannot get his Independent voters. I think it may be close, but my guess is that McCain will win the Independent vote narrowly against Hillary.
    Those are the only two "swing voting blocs" if we are honest. If Hillary is elected one goes to sleep again, and the other moves to McCain.

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