Daily Kos

The Tipping Point?

Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:01:19 PM PDT

Maybe I'm biased, and believe me, this is not to suggest anything other than a continued and even escalated full-throttle push for us Obama supporters all the way to the finish. But watching the returns from the Potomac Primaries and the speeches by Obama, McCain and Clinton, I'm thinking that we may be at the "tipping point" in this campaign. I just don't see a path to the nomination for Hillary, and, given that, I suspect that much of her support will wither away in fairly rapid and dramatic fashion. Barring some major, unforseen event, Barack Obama will be the Democratic nominee for President of the United States. Here's why:

  1. It's almost impossible for Hillary to end up with more pledged delegates than Obama. He currently leads Clinton in pledged delegates 1129 to 995. She's obviously looking to make her last stand in Texas, as evidenced by her presence there tonight. But it looks like an Alamo kind of scenario to me. Obama is making inroads into the Latino vote (I think the numbers from Maryland today were 53-47), there is a large black vote there, and a lot of the state looks like the Western caucus states that Obama has absolutely dominated. Plus, it's a hybrid caucus/primary, and because of how the delegates are selected, I've seen some analyses that show that even if he loses the popular vote, he'll probably come out with more delegates than her.

Meanwhile, the next two contests are Wisconsin and Hawaii. Obama was in Wisconsin today speaking to a crowd of 20,000 plus an overflow room. He's won every neighboring state, so I see no reason why Wisconsin won't be another huge win for Obama. Hawaii is his native state and it's another Western caucus, albeit with a different ethnic mix. His Indonesian/American sister Maya and her Chinese husband might help bring in the Asian vote, and the rest of the state will probably be excited to be able to provide a little boost to a native son. I see another huge Obama victory there.

Back to the rest of March 4 -- Rhode Island and Vermont will at best be a wash for Hillary based on the experience in Massachusetts and Maine. That leaves Ohio. Surely a nice prize, and we'll see what happens. But I don't see a big win for Hillary here either. Decent sized African-American community and no big Latino, immigrant or "feminist" vote.

And here's the rub. If she doesn't come out of March 4 with a substantial lead, there's still more Obama-friendly states to come: Mississippi, Oregon, Indiana (neighboring state to Illinois), North Carolina, South Dakota and Nebraska. There's also Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and Puerto Rico that might be more favorable, but I just don't think that they'll be able to save her. Ultimately, it looks like March 4 or bust for Hillary.

  1. Florida and Michigan will not save her. If Obama has more delegates, his supporters get to decide whether to change the rules ex post facto for Florida and Michigan, and there's simply no way that they would do that.
  1. The superdelegates will not save her. First, they have no interest in going against the popular will of the people in their own party, especially when Obama polls better against McCain than Hillary does and has shown a great potential to grow the party with young, new voters and independents. Second, most of the superdelegates in her corner were early endorsers who bought into her inevitability. When it becomes clear that she will not win, I suspect that many of them will jump ship. The black electeds who are out of step with 80-90% of their constituents in many cases, might be leading the way. I imagine that there is a lot more negativity toward the Clintons in the Party establishment than might be thought: this is after all the President who managed to lose the Congress for 12 years and failed to pass on the Presidency to his Vice-President.

So there you have it. Obama will win the most pledged delegates, Florida and Michigan will not be seated until after the nominee is chosen and the superdelegates will shift to Obama. I expect that this thing will end very soon after March 4.

Meanwhile, McCain looked positively horrible tonight. After months of fighting against the strong field of Democratic candidates, McCain seems upon first glance to be easy work for Obama. Maybe others are seeing something I'm not, but I just didn't hear one single positive rationale for his candidacy other than some fear-mongering based on gross distortions of Obama message of hope and change. Just weak. I'm greatly looking forward to working even harder for Obama in the general election.

Fired up and ready to go!

Poll

Hillary will drop out . . .

2%5 votes
58%127 votes
19%42 votes
19%43 votes

| 217 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: 2008, Democratic Primary, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 57 comments

  •  Ive been doing my own math (12+ / 0-)

    And assuming that 55% of 193 delegates in texas would mean 109 delegates for Hillary. I give her 56% in Ohio and 62% for her in PA and she is still losing to Obama by 26 pledged delegates.

    It is not about 2025, it is about who wins the most pledged delegates.

  •  It's teetering (11+ / 0-)

    But it still requires a strong push. Now that's within sight finally, it's a mistake to let up.

    It's teetering but not yet toppled.

    The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear... What he wants above everything else is safety. HL Mencken

    by Judgment at Nuremberg on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:07:53 PM PDT

    •  From the evil Drudge Report (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Fonsia

      He is clearly enjoying himself with the fall of Hillary. (And yes, he WILL come after Obama next, we all know that!) In the meantime, these are his headlines:

      In the Chesapeake Rout, according to exit polls in Maryland, Obama won:
      Latino Voters By Six Points: 53-47
      All Religions (Including Catholics)
      All Age Groups (Including Seniors)
      All Regions
      All Education Levels
      And Women by TWENTY ONE POINTS...

      The Book of Revelation is not a foreign policy manual.

      by Dont Just Stand There on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:37:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  On the local news (SF) (7+ / 0-)

    the analysts are comparing Hillary's Texas-Ohio 'wait and see' -- four weeks away -- to Ghoulliani's Florida travesty.  Four weeks of negative news cycles for Hillary, with positive ones for Obama.  

    Ouch.  Yay!

    _______________________________
    Healing the universe is an inside job.

    by spotDawa on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:09:17 PM PDT

  •  Momentum is pretty important (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RichM, Pompatus, extradish, Moonwood

    but Hillary is part of a machine that doesn't give up before they lay waste to the person they're up against.  It is the Republican way, and I would guess she'd go dirty before she quit.

    I will probably be proven wrong, but I am a cynical bastard...the machine is full of DC insiders and cronies.  It's almost as though they're in on everything together.

    The MSM is propaganda.

    by mmuskratt on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:09:53 PM PDT

  •  I wouldn't count out the MI and FL situation yet (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jaiwithani, Crestingwave

    If she is close enough, such that MI and FL would put her over, this would open up a can of worms, that would really fracture the party.  My biggest concern is if it goes to court.  And, yes, before anyone tells me, I kno precedent is against her - that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do everything to prevent a lawsuit.

  •  The way this is going (6+ / 0-)

    I think Hillary will lose both Ohio and Texas.  But we must keep working hard.  And donating.

    •  See, that's just it. Donating. Ain't happening. (5+ / 0-)

      (see my money comment below)

      I've been around the financial portion of campaigns a bit and it's nearly always what shuts them down. Money is going to shut Hillary down... and it will a lot quicker than lagging support.

      Go over to Hillary is 44 dot com and you'll see the usual calls for donations and people saying they sent in $10.44 just today, just like it was a week ago.

      The difference is that last week most those donors were actually sending in that money instead of just typing it on a blog.

      Money is a hell of a thing. Look at the Intrade elections futures tonight. You can buy Obama for 73.5 and Hillary at 28. Intrade doesn't track support very tightly but it DOES track campaign contributions nearly perfectly, because it's the same thing. Money.

      A campaign contribution is an investment.

      Hillary's money dries up horribly after tonight. People asking others to donate donate donate, are probaly not donating donating donating themselves. Some of the folks bragging they donated actually did, but that tracks Intrade also.

      This may be hard for some people to believe, but anyone associated with campaigns knows it is true. Hillary knows it's true.

      Texas and Ohio are going to cost money Hillary doesn't have and can't get.

      It's over tonight.

      It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

      by Fishgrease on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:50:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I just don't get (3+ / 0-)

       the Clinton campaign, it may well be the worst I've ever seen. How do you piss away such an awesome advantage in so short an amount of time? How do you make a comeback like she did in NH, and still blow it again, and again, and again?

       Yet another reason to hope that Obama wins the nomination....the vaunted Clinton machine aint working too well.

    •  Two things... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      FudgeFighter

      She banked high on name recognition and inevitability.  But she has always had very high negatives - which never budged throughout the whole campaign.  It will be her downfall - if that comes to pass.

      'Part of what makes America so beautiful is that there is no such thing as someone who looks like an American' - Barack Obama

      by RichM on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:29:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  HRC Campaign (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      crystalboy, Bule Betawi

      I don't think HRC has run a bad campaign.  She's performed well in the debates and hasn't really had any major snafus that I can think of.  I think she has acquitted herself quite well.  To me it's more about the dynamic appeal of Obama than it is about HRC making mistakes in campaign tactics.  I'm not sure she could have done anything to derail Obama's momentum.

      •  The Campaign was Badly Managed (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Fonsia

        Josh Green just put up a great article on the Atlantic website.

        His take: Patti Solis Doyle, who was fired yesterday as Clinton's campaign manager, was woefully out of her league. She burned through something like $75 million on the last senate campaign, where there wasn't even a significant challenger. And then:

        Rather than punish Solis Doyle or raise questions about her fitness to lead, Clinton chose her to manage the presidential campaign for reasons that should now be obvious: above all, Clinton prizes loyalty and discipline, and Solis Doyle demonstrated both traits, if little else. This suggests to me that for all the emphasis Clinton has placed on executive leadership in this campaign, her own approach is a lot closer to the current president’s than her supporters might like to admit.

        So she burned through another $100 million plus, while failing to put in place the campaign infrastructure you need for an extended fight.

        Granted, nobody saw Obama coming. But if Hillary had learned ONE THING from the Iraq debacle, it should have been to have a backup plan just in case the best-case scenario doesn't play out....

    •  --It Wasn't Actually Awesome nt (0+ / 0-)

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 01:19:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Arrogance. It'll get ya every time. (0+ / 0-)

      Like Bush, she had no Plan B.

      She knew she'd win it all on 2/5. Ergo, there was no need to plan beyond that.

      Oops.

      May your entire existence be one sensuous, frolic-filled experience lived in defiance of care.

      by Fonsia on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 01:20:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Pledged Delegate Deficit (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Judgment at Nuremberg

    Going into the convention I guess I could see a scenario whereby Clinton could muscle her way into the nomination but only if her deficit in pledged delegates (excluding the supers) is under 100.  If the deficit is over 100 and the SDs play the trump card in favor of HRC the backlash will be so bad that the cost of winning the nomination won't be worth it.

  •  My thoughts. (5+ / 0-)

    1. Obama did not win every neighboring state: Mich.
    1. Clinton won't concede before Ohio and Texas. Infact, she shouldn't; it is actually better for all Democrats if she remains in atleast that long.  

    I know a lot of people are looking forward to the end of the Priaries so "we can start going after the real opponent".. But look at how quickly Clinton went from Front Runner to.... "expected to drop".  That was fast, and it wasn't on the back of any significant event.  There was no "Oh look, Obama discovered the cure for Cancer" moment.  There was no "Oh look, Clinton just murdered someone" moment.  It was a tidal wave which didn't register in the Polls.  A Tsunami struck completely without warning.

    Clinton Supporters are still dazed from this transition.. For her to just drop out when "mathmatically" it is still possible for her to conceivably win - would feel like a real slap in the face to many loyal Clinton supporters.  

    Three things need to happen before Clinton should drop out:

    1. Clinton supporters need to adjust into the new reality... that way they are able to start to make amends with Obama supporters and move into General Election mode. This applies to Clinon as well.
    1. Obama supporters need to adjust into the new reality... It is somewhat easy to run an insurgent campaign, when you are the underdog; but will that transition smoothly into a General election once you become the presumptive nominee?  Obama needs to show that he is indeed ready to campaign in the General.
    1. Obama needs a win which is viewed as an endorsement. Right now people are looking at Texas or Ohio -- a win in either will effectively end the campaign. In the end, the voters in some state will decide that the nominee has been chosen... and the votes will be there to demonstrate as such.

    Flowers Bloom for my Ex - though Honeybees are pretty cool too.

    by Yoshi En Son on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:24:09 PM PDT

    •  I agree (5+ / 0-)

      She should stay in until March 4. If she makes a big comeback there, like in New Hampshire, than it's back to game on. Otherwise, it's over. Four more weeks of this campaign isn't going to hurt our nominee, whoever it may be. Obama's already re-tuning his stump speech to go after McCain.

      I don't think it's legitimate to point to Michigan as proof that "neighboring states" won't go to Obama given that his name did not appear on the ballot.

      •  Err.. obviously I didn't state it clear enough.. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        penguins4peace, crystalboy

        I am not saying that Mich won't go for Obama... infact, I see no reason for Mich to NOT go for Obama.  I was merely correcting the Diarist who stated that all states neighboring Wisconsin were won by Obama, when that isn't the case.  Michigan Borders Wisconsin but was not won by Obama.

        Flowers Bloom for my Ex - though Honeybees are pretty cool too.

        by Yoshi En Son on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:39:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Correction (5+ / 0-)

      1. Michigan isn't a neighbor state of Illinois. You have to drive thru Indiana or sail across a Great Lake to get here from here.
      1. Michigan was neither won nor lost. It chose not to play.

      60 for the Senate. Obama 08.

      by bornadem on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:29:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, I was reffering to (0+ / 0-)

        Wisconson -- since the Diarist stated that Obama has won every neighboring state to Wisconson..

        I know it is minor details, but the Diarist stated that Obama won, I was only stating that Obama did not win - I did not say that he lost.

        Flowers Bloom for my Ex - though Honeybees are pretty cool too.

        by Yoshi En Son on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:35:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Where's the benefit (8+ / 0-)

      of Hillary continuing to drag the dead carcass of her campaign around for another month? Her speech tonight was a funeral.

      And if she goes dirty, or tries to win with superdelegates, woe to her and her senate seat. If she succeeds, woe to the Democratic party.

      Hillary should have conceded tonight. That is what would have been best for the party, and the country. Hillary's supporters, what's left of them, will adjust fine.

      Barack Obama is the best thing to happen to the Democratic party I've seen in my lifetime. It is obvious to everyone but Hillary supporters. Personally, I wanted Edwards. But there is no mistaking it - this is the year of Obama.

      Hillary is the one who needs to adjust. I can't imagine how hard that would be to invest so much and then fail. But that is the situation. Texas and Ohio won't reverse this trend or give her the delegates to win.

      She's just wasting everyones money now. Money that will be needed to fight McCain.

      •  The Clintons are NOT About Best-for-Party or (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Alexander G Rubio

        best-for-country.

        One of countless illustrations of fundamental faults in our system.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 01:21:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Texas and Ohio.... (0+ / 0-)

    Barak supporters have to take one of these two states to end this.  If that is what Hillary wants, this is the stakes that are defined.  Texas and Ohio.

    'Part of what makes America so beautiful is that there is no such thing as someone who looks like an American' - Barack Obama

    by RichM on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:27:06 PM PDT

  •  I don't expect Clinton to drop out until it is (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    highacidity

    completely certain that she can't win the nomination.  I think she and Bill truly believe that only they are capable of beating the Republicans, and that to let Obama have the nomination would be suicide for the party.  They have really convinced themselves of that, and it will help them rationalize any dirty trick or slick maneuver to get the nomination.

  •  Money gets a lot scarcer after toinight. (6+ / 0-)

    For Hillary, money gets A LOT harder to come by after tonight. After next Tuesday, she'll have almost nothing coming in.

    Look at it this way, it costs Superdelegates nothing to delay their decision to support Obama. Doesn't cost them a dime. But campaign donors? That's money, folks. Money requires a MUCH higher burden of proof than support -- proof that it's not just money going down a hole. Support is vapor. Air. Money is an investment. Money... is fucking money!

    And even before tonight, even with Hillary's much touted $10 million in four days or whatever it was, Hillary was bring in the dollars at 1/3rd the rate Obama was. Yes, that's since Super Tuesday.

    So if it was 1/3rd of Obama's intake before tonight's crushing losses, what will it be now? 1/4? 1/5th? Less?

    None of the TV commentators talked money tonight and what this does to her. Her donors know it though, and so does she.

    More than anything else, tonight was the money tipping point and that will bring this to a close a lot quicker than lagging support.

    Like soon.

    It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

    by Fishgrease on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:32:31 PM PDT

    •  some coverage (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pompatus, Fonsia

      I read an article where she was on the phone with donors after the losses trying to "assure them she was still a viable candidate."

      •  Yeah, I heard that. (0+ / 0-)

        But the Mainstream Media won't report on it much. They shouldn't.

        Talking about a campaign's money is much worse than saying they're pimping or black or anything else.

        The talking heads won't talk about it -- not to the extent I've laid it out here. Even they aren't that cruel.

        It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

        by Fishgrease on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:52:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I think the tipping point was actually a week ago (0+ / 0-)

    i have also though of his campaign, his movement in these terms. he seems to really get it, it's as if he has Malcolm Gladwell advising him.

    ...and some marched, and some sat-in, and some were beaten, and some went to jail, and some died for freedom's cause. That's what hope is. -Barack Obama

    by phukhotfashion on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:32:47 PM PDT

    •  Maine. She was supposed to get that one. (0+ / 0-)

      Losing it by 18 points! Allowing O's winning streak to go on uninterrupted.

      Ouch.

      May your entire existence be one sensuous, frolic-filled experience lived in defiance of care.

      by Fonsia on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 01:24:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Half-Asian half-sister? (0+ / 0-)

    There must be a better description of the person in question than this.  Really.

    For every difficult question, there is an answer that is simple, easily understood and wrong.--H.L. Mencken

    by The Totalizer on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:51:03 PM PDT

  •  Here's what I'm wondering (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    terra, toys, Fonsia, prefan

    Why take it to court or use superdelegates to win the nomination? You'd be running to lose the election. You'd be looking at negative press every hour on the hour until election day. What's the point? Granted, the Clintons have egos, but they're not political morons. It'd be a kamikaze run and they know it.

    A working-class hero is something to be.

    by Reckoner on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:54:16 PM PDT

  •  This entire contest is great for the Democrats! (0+ / 0-)

    More and more Americans are getting involved.  They are excited that their votes count, maybe for the first time. Anything that engages the American public and makes them evaluate the state of the country can only be good.  Let's string it out as long as we can.

  •  I just want to say (0+ / 0-)

    that the comments on this thread are way smarter than the entire MSM cubed! Brilliant!

Permalink | 57 comments