Chum into bloody, shark-filled waters

Mark Penn, via TPM:

Could we possibly have a nominee who hasn't won any of the significant states -- outside of Illinois? That raises some serious questions about Senator Obama.

Oh, and when they say things like that you don't feel so guilty about posting half-hearted three line diaries comments at 2:26am. God bless you Mark Penn.

Be nice to Hillary. Hate the game.

•  I don't need tips.

  by Addison on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:27:58 PM PDT

  •  Addison, I voted

    for HRC in the California primary, and I'm not saying this because I'm an Obama fan, this isn't a diary.  This is a comment.

    P.S.  Quoting Mark Penn never helps.

    by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:30:01 PM PDT

    •  No.

      It isn't a diary. But it IS 2:30 in the morning. I have always felt that makes a difference.

      by Addison on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:30:44 PM PDT

      •  Objection

        non-responsive.  Mark Penn is an asshat.  ;-)

        I'm glad someone else has insomnia.  Misery loves company.

        by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:32:30 PM PDT

        •  Why is he an asshat?

          He is employed by the Clinton campaign, so shouldn't he be an aggressive advocate for Hillary? If you were Hillary and this guy you hired was less than 100 percent on your side would you keep him on?

          I imagine if Obama had hired him he would be arguing the exact opposite.

          He's a hired gun. If that makes him an asshat then there are a whole lot of asshats out there.

          by quaoar on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:40:43 PM PDT

          •  

            If that makes him an asshat then there are a whole lot of asshats out there.

            There are a whole lot of asshats out there.

            by Marcus Tullius on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:41:42 PM PDT

            •  Well,

              I guess there is no denying that. LOL

              by quaoar on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:42:36 PM PDT

          •  He's an asshat because...

            (a) he's devaluing voters, a bad decision on it's own.

            (b) the fact that (a) doesn't help hillary at all.

            by Addison on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:42:00 PM PDT

            •  it's really interesting when you read it

              in conjunction with the info Del. Dem's diary, which claims that the Clinton campaign has mistakenly devalued the smaller states

              by ksh01 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:02:04 AM PDT

          •  You should

            go and read about who he's been a hired gun for.  BTW, I'm a HRC supporter, so ease up.

            by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:42:19 PM PDT

            •  I'm not on your case

              I was just pointing out that Penn is a hired gun and he is doing what he is being paid to do.

              If he was anything less than completely committed to Hillary at this point he would be out of a job. And who would want to hire him in the future?

              by quaoar on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:45:59 PM PDT

              •  Here's

                an article about Penn's union busting connections.

                by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:47:00 PM PDT

                •  I am not defending

                  Penn's progressive street cred.

                  I was pointing out that he is simply doing what he is being paid to do.

                  If you were running for Congress and you hired someone to help run your campaign and that person went around saying that maybe your primary opponent was a better candidate you'd fire his ass.

                  My brother, BTW, works for a law firm that busts unions. I give him no end of grief for that but I still sit down and eat Thanksgiving dinner with him.

                  by quaoar on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:52:28 PM PDT

                  •  Dude,

                    I'm general counsel for an insurance company.  I have complete sympathy.  I still don't do the kind of shit that Penn does.

                    by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:53:53 PM PDT

                    •  OMG

                      You're like Darth Vader. LOL

                      by quaoar on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:54:49 PM PDT

              •  Honestly, I'm not

                sure why she hired him in the first place.

                by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:48:25 PM PDT

          •  I guess my answer to that would be that

            there's often an difference between an aggressive advocate and an effective one.

            The comment quoted in the diary is aggressive, but disastrous - the number of people who will be persuaded  to vote for Hillary by it is 0. The number who will find it myopic and offensive, and might attribute those qualities by extension to Penn's employer, includes everyone not living in Illinois (and other self-evidently 'important' states - NY? MA? CA?). Actually, it includes most of the people living in those states as well.

            by scardanelli on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:14:52 AM PDT

  •  I'll take 'em, lol

    Mark Penn is a piece of work... "significant states" indeed.

    Funny McCain Pics archive updated regularly

    by InsultComicDog on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:30:08 PM PDT

  •  The Scorched Earth campaign -well played Mr. Penn

    Dare I say that he's topped his inevitable meme.

    The guy is stealing money.

    by JohnnyAppleseed on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:40:30 PM PDT

    •  That's news, it should lead

      right behind "Man Bites Dog"

      by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:43:41 PM PDT

  •  With diaries like this,

    you do.

    by wader on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:09:41 AM PDT

  •  I dont live in

    a state that is significant enough. It's that 270 thing, just enough to maybe get over the finish line. Not need to worry about the rest of the country.

    by Seattlite on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:39:29 AM PDT

•  I live in MI, so first I didn't matter

  and now I am a matter of the gravest concern. GO ME!

  Fun factoid: Obama has now won more blue or so-swing-they-could-very-well-go-blue-in-november states than Hillary Clinton has won total.

  by terra on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:30:34 PM PDT

  •  Yeah

    a comparison of results strictly in "swing states" might be in order.

    Funny McCain Pics archive updated regularly

    by InsultComicDog on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:33:43 PM PDT

•  Well... I was going to go to bed,

  but I guess I will sit here and cry for a little while first.

  by Dopeman on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:31:10 PM PDT

  •  Don't cry

    Obama is a fine candidate.

    by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:33:27 PM PDT

    •  yeah, I'll get over it

      when I see him sworn in less than a year from today.

      by Dopeman on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:07:49 AM PDT

•  I am in Oregon, so I voted "No".

  What a dumb statement.

  I like this part, though

  Be nice to Hillary. Hate the game.

  Lovely sentiment.

  by Marcus Tullius on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:32:55 PM PDT

  •  And I really mean it, too!

    Hillary is, probably, the most brilliant political woman of her generation. I blame Bill, at this point, completely. I can't stand them, but when I think about why, he always turns up...

    by Addison on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:34:45 PM PDT

    •  She has been very poorly

      advised by her top echelon.  Of course, she picked them.

      by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:36:18 PM PDT

    •  Eh, I walked into this primary season

      ready to be convinced. I didn't become an Obamaite til november/december, and even I was willing to give Hillary some leniency, up until the Nevada union snafu. It's been straight downhill since then.

      by terra on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:39:46 PM PDT

    •  She's not even close

      Hillary is, probably, the most brilliant political woman of her generation.

      Far from it.  Practically all the self-made women in politics are better politicians, from Kathleen Sebelius to Alaska's Republican governor Sarah Palin.

      There may be something to the idea of blaming Hillary's failure on Bill, but it's tricky because you also have to give him credit for her successes.  

      The interesting question is who would Hillary be -- and how successful would she have been -- if she had never met Bill?  She rode his popularity to the top of national politics, and that's how she got all her power.  Certainly the Hillary we know today could never have made it very far on her own, because she's just not a very skilled manager or strategist, she's incredibly phony, and she's an annoying speaker.  But she is certainly hard-working and determined.  The question is how many of her negatives are the result of being a part of Bill's machine, being influenced by his advisers?  If she had run her own career from the start, would she have sold out every ounce of integrity and candor?  Or would she have been forced early on to be a more genuine person with better values?  

      It boils down to this:  The Hillary we know today would be nowhere without Bill's help.  But without Bill's corrupting influence, would Hillary have become a better person and made it on her own?  We'll never know.

      by Troutnut on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:01:56 AM PDT

•  mmmmm....chum!

  by psycho liberal on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:34:20 PM PDT

•  Don't even know if this fits this diary, but

  yesterday a (female) student in AP US History started
  weeping after a lesson & film about the suffragettes.

  The film was Iron Jaw.

  She is a local coordinator for Obama (at 16!), but torn between
  Obama and Hillary and her strengths, wanting a strong woman to be
  president sooner rather than later.

  "Be nice to Hillary. Hate the game."

  Yes.

  by begone on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:46:14 PM PDT

  •  Does Hillary deserve nice?

    I'm not sure I buy the "don't pick on her because she's a girl" argument.  Hillary has done more to earn contempt than anyone else in our party, except maybe that guy who stuffed a bunch of bribe cash in his freezer.  I'm not comfortable with letting her indefinitely use her gender to shield her from the criticism she deserves for her countless unethical decisions.

    by Troutnut on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:06:18 AM PDT

    •  umm, worse than Zell Miller & Joe Lieberman?

      I don't agree with Clinton's down party politics, but I don't see that she's done more to earn contempt than anyone else short of Jefferson.

      Not wild about the whole "be nice to Hillary. Hate the game" stuff because I don't want to elevate OR denigrate Clinton due to her gender.  She is a strong woman and an able politician.

      by ksh01 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:17:00 AM PDT

  •  There are dozens of great women

    in the Senate and especially State Houses around the country who are going to make a run at this, they have great experience and none of the Clinton Baggage.  So this idea that Hillary is the only one who may win it in this girls life is false

    I believe this opens the flood gates. Thanks to her historic run, it proves it's possible, that we as a nation don't dismiss out of hand a female candidate anymore. She is just not THE candidate that has caught our imagination.

    I am nearly 50 and I honestly believe that I will see it in my lifetime, because we finally have a pool of powerful, experienced women to draw from. But Hillary deserves credit for a historic run that creates the environment for those who follow her to succeed.

    by Seattlite on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:53:52 AM PDT

    •  I wouldn't count on it

      We do not finally have a pool of powerful experienced women to draw on. We have always had powerful experienced women.

      They are not inclined to run for President, and I don't think they will be inspired to do so after watching Hillary lose the overwhelming majority of Democratic primaries this year.

      by Free Spirit on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:19:15 AM PDT

•  From what I understand

  Hillary HAS TO not only win Texas, Ohio and Penn, she has to win them by a big margin in order to really have a shot, is that right?

  by Jeff Y on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:46:44 PM PDT

  •  Correct. They are significant. She must win them

    ...significantly.

    by Addison on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:48:57 PM PDT

    •  By 30 points or so, right? n/t

      by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:52:25 PM PDT

      •  who even knows...

        ...all I really thing is that the super delegates will fall like dominos one way or another. and i do hope it's barack's way.

        by Addison on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:54:23 PM PDT

        •  thing = think. obviously...

          ...that's a more common mistake on dkos than before. i blame heavy metals.

          by Addison on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:55:41 PM PDT

        •  If she loses

          either Texas, Ohio or Pennsylvania, it's over. I think that's pretty clear.

          by quaoar on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:57:03 PM PDT

        •  I hope it's decisive

          one way or the other and before the super delegates even come into play.  

          In other words, I hope HRC either crashes and burns in TX, OH and PA or completely blows BHO out for the rest of the primary season.  I don't want a brokered convention.  I think it's bad for the party.  I want our candidate to start campaigning against McCain instead of against another democrat.

          by DMiller on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:57:37 PM PDT

          •  I agree

            by quaoar on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:58:26 PM PDT

      •  she would have to do it by 40

        i think. and that's ignoring the lower delegate count states....

        by ksh01 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:20:07 AM PDT

    •  She's not going to win them big

      even if she does win them, if that's the case she's finished...

      by Jeff Y on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:58:30 PM PDT

      •  Honestly, I already pulled

        my monthly contribution.  I don't believe in throwing good money after bad.  I didn't get where I am today by doing that.

        I don't think she can win the big states that are left by the margin she needs to win the nomination.  She made some really bad decisions early in her campaign in terms of strategy and delegate counting and they've come back to bite her.  It's unfortunate, because I really do think that she was the best candidate, but Obama is an absolutely stellar candidate as well.  However, he had a better ground game.

        by DMiller on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:03:30 AM PDT

        •  Correction.

          I should say "Our" monthly contribution.  I'd already maxed out.  My partner had started a monthly contribution that was going to max out by the convention.  I stopped that.

          by DMiller on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:04:43 AM PDT

•  Poll missing an option

  I wanted to check "Hell Yes", but there wasn't one.

  by Johnny Pez on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:48:49 AM PDT