Daily Kos

I won't vote Hillary/Obama if s/he wins the nomination

Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:32:28 AM PDT

I want to ask everyone here a serious question.

For everyone who is saying, "If your candidate wins the nomination, I will not support him/her," why is that?

Is it because of the tactics, statements, or other behavior of the other candidate and that candidate's staff, advisors, and other close confidants?

Or is it because you are disgusted and turned off by the behavior of the supporters of that other candidate on this blog or otherwise on the internet or in the real world?

While personally, I will vote for either candidate in a general election if it means the difference between a Democrat or a Republican in the White House, y'all got to take a long, hard look at yourselves and your rhetoric.  

I think it would be politically stupid, but at least somewhat principled, to deny your vote to a candidate who you feel has been playing dirty pool, and whose attitude towards democracy and popular will is deeply at odds with your own core beliefs and values.

But if your whole basis for denying your vote to the other Democrat is because you think that candidate's supporters are rude, irrational, dismissive, or whatever else, then that is no basis to deny your vote to the CANDIDATE.  

It's totally eighth grade, and has zero rational basis for the fracturing of our party.

Everybody on both sides needs to grow up here, but when you start playing with weapons like threatening to withhold your vote in the general election, make sure that you've got something more than "those guys who like that other guy insulted me" as a reason.

Tags: primary, obama vs. clinton, daily kos, general election, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, 2008 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 129 comments

  •  Bigger point (23+ / 0-)

    Voting for McCain instead of the other candidate is beyond spiteful, it's stupid.

    "When the President does it, it's not illegal" - Richard Nixon, 1974; US Congress, 2008

    by nightsweat on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:34:39 AM PDT

  •  I fear this will not be productive (14+ / 0-)

    Personally I haven't heard many people say they will not vote for Obama if he wins the nomination; maybe that's just me.  

    As an Obama supporter I look forward to working for / voting for either of them in the general.

    But the Obama supporters who are unwilling to vote for Clinton appear to be predicating that decision on a Fox-News style echo chamber where everything she says is racist, everything she does is selfish, and in spite of her more liberal Senate record compared to Obama she's a closet Republican.

    You will not receive a rational response from anyone that far gone.

    ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

    by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:35:31 AM PDT

    •  There have been a few already (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      homogenius, TooFolkGR

      Let's just say they weren't well-received. ;-)

      **Less than four months until the general election.**
      Just a reminder for those who have other priorities.

      by Spathiphyllum on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:37:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  agreed... (6+ / 0-)

      the extent to which so many Obama supporters have bought into the talking points of The American Spectator circa 1995 is really disturbing.

    •  Let's say you are not on a web site to see that (6+ / 0-)

      This blog is so heavy with Obama fans, you won't see it.  There are sites that are just as heavy Clinton fan laden.

      But honestly, look at the voting history of all three and there is no doubt.

      http://www.votesmart.org/...

      It is set to Obama here, but can be changed.  Look at the voting patterns.  Tell me who you wouldn't vote for based on that.  Honestly.

      Do some homework.  Don't just read what is written here.  It is very one sided.  

      I am voting for Obama, but will vote blue in the general.  The difference is clear.

      "He who fears something gives it power over him."--Arab proverb

      by crazyshirley2100 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:46:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agree with everything except (0+ / 0-)

      I don't think these Hillary-haters are genuine Obama-supporters. They're more like Obama-settlers; they're settling for Obama because every other alternative to HRC is gone. I think it's fair to say the overwhelming majority of real Obama-supporters will be more than happy to support the Democrat in November, whoever that turns out to be.

      "I'm bad at being subtle, but I ain't that tough." -Joan Jett

      by foxfire burns on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:51:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Personally (0+ / 0-)

      She's never been an option for me from the start.  She lost me when she co-sponsored that damnable flag-burning bill.  I have a thing about Free Speech and when a Democrat goes there, I tend to lose a lot of respect for them.  The way she's run her campaign since simply reinforced my already very low opinion of her as a politician.  I respect her intelligence and her strength of will, but that's not all that I vote on.  I don't like her and, more importantly, I don't trust her.  She would be less bad than McCain.  But less bad does not equal good.  It'd take a lot to get me to a point where I could vote for her with any kind of conscience.  If she wins dirty, there is absolutely no way I would vote for her.

      •  I Too Disagreed With That Nonsense (0+ / 0-)

        But she knew it wasn't going anywhere just as I did, so I got over it.  I'm not suggesting that you are wrong not to do so.  I don't question anybody else's criteria in choosing their candidate.

        ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

        by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:57:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And this mean-spirited comment is? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rorgg

      But the Obama supporters who are unwilling to vote for Clinton appear to be predicating that decision on a Fox-News style echo chamber where everything she says is racist, everything she does is selfish, and in spite of her more liberal Senate record compared to Obama she's a closet Republican.

      WTF? Why would anyone rec such an insulting comment?

      •  I Apologize if You Were Offended (0+ / 0-)

        I'm just responding to what I see.  I did not do any name-calling in it.

        ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

        by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:05:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Saying there is no rational reason (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          punkdavid

          to object to Hillary is insulting.

          There are MANY good reasons for people to be disappointed, angered and yes, disgusted with the way she's run her campaign. Even Kos has said she's not acceptable as our nominee.Wanting to seat the delegates for MI and FL is reason enough, even if nothing else had preceded it. Obama was not even on the MI ballot! It's outrageously unfair. It has nothing to do with racism or Fox news.

          And why are you pretending you've never heard of the AUMF vote? You must be aware that there are thousands--probably millions--of rational, loyal Democrats who are sincerely and genuinely disappointed and angered by her vote and support of the war. That's not an irrational position to have, even if you have a different one. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a Fox-watching, gullible fool.

          •  You Misunderstand (0+ / 0-)

            I never claimed there was no rational reason, I said it isn't rational reasons that I read here endlessly.  And your comment has not changed that.

            You then go on to accuse me of "pretending" various things, which is baseless and I will not respond to it.

            ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

            by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:23:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  you can pop up the list and see (0+ / 0-)

        by clicking on the recs.  You don't have to write a comment to ask.

        "He who fears something gives it power over him."--Arab proverb

        by crazyshirley2100 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:36:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I will vote the straight Dem ticket if Obama (0+ / 0-)

      gets the nomination. That way I don't have to actually vote for him. I can just check the box at the bottom signifying I am voting for ALL the Dems. It keeps me from actually having to check the box with his name on it. Easy way to stick with the party without having to vote for someone you don't think can do the job.

      What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

      by Demfem on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:09:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The dog whistle tactics (0+ / 0-)

    Sorry, Big Sam won't save Scarlett this fall.

    It was never my country anyway.

    Workers of the world unite--back by popular demand.

    by Kab ibn al Ashraf on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:36:22 AM PDT

  •  The pre-emptive "Poor Loser" diaries (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    rustydude, wader, homogenius, pat208, Owllwoman

    Saw quite a few "sore loser" diaries when I was lurking here in 2004. I almost didn't join because of them. They will pass, but I know a lot of us have already lost our patience for them.  

    **Less than four months until the general election.**
    Just a reminder for those who have other priorities.

    by Spathiphyllum on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:36:42 AM PDT

  •  I think its called a bribe. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    YatPundit, llamaRCA

    Like someone from the DNC is going to read these diarys and decide what to do.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:37:21 AM PDT

  •  It's B.S. (6+ / 0-)

    Any Democract who would stay home in a state where the party will be even remotely competitive in the general should be ashamed.  Passion is a wonderful thing and I hope I get a chance to vote for my preferred candidate in the fall.  But this country, specifically, its Supreme Court, its economy, its military, etc., cannot stand another four years of Republicans.  

    It's not my fault if you're stupid.

    by Tootie on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:38:18 AM PDT

    •  But you forget... (0+ / 0-)

      not all Obama's supporters are Democrats.  Even if you got every single person here on DK to agree to vote for whoever the nominee is, it's not going to change the very real and pervasive antipathy toward Clinton that isn't limited to Republicans.

      3 June 2008: I join the Democratic Party

      by Rorgg on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:48:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Consider The Big Picture (0+ / 0-)

    It doesn't matter whether it's "eighth grade" that people feel this way.

    Hillary Clinton is a very divisive political figure.

    According to a Zogby poll taken in October, half of the respondents said that they will not vote for Hillary Clinton.

    So sure, I can tell you that I won't vote for Hillary Clinton, because I won't.  But it turns out that half the country won't vote for her either.

    "I've been an oilman all my life, but this is one crisis we can't drill our way out of" --T. Boone Pickens

    by bincbom on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:38:43 AM PDT

  •  A vote for McCain (3+ / 0-)

    or a failure to vote for which ever candidate you don't like is a vote for McCain.  The Supreme Court has to be protected!!  If you think our economy, civil rights, military, statute in the world can take another repug administration, please reconsider.  Thank you for putting my thoughts in this diary!

    Impeachment! Indictment! Incarceration!

    by followyourbliss on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:40:08 AM PDT

  •  My reason for not voting for Hillary? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    2lucky, jeepdad, followyourbliss

    or Barack.

    I am not a citizen.

    But I donate and canvass. I'd work really hard for the legitimate winner of the party nomination.

  •  Diagnosis: Temporary Insanity (5+ / 0-)

    Really, there's no other explanation.  Contrast either Obama or Hillary with McCain.  After looking at the comparison of either Democrat with McCain, how could you possibly (a) vote for McCain, a rabid antichoice warmonger, or (b) abstain, which in essence is a tacit vote for McCain?

    Only if you have suffered some sort of brain malady, like a temporary insanity.

    Hopefully all of these "I won't vote for your candidate" people wake up before November.

    My family is split.  Three for Obama, two for Hillary.  But we all agree on one thing:  We're Democrats, and we're ALL voting for the Democratic nominee in November.

    I mean, you people, don't you remember 2000?  Democrats actually voted for Ralph Nader!  Gore would have won in a landslide if he'd had the -- sorry, I have to say it -- dopes who voted for Ralph.

    Take the pledge and Get United.

    In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. H.L. Mencken

    by hockeyrules on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:43:46 AM PDT

  •  I'd vote, but... (0+ / 0-)

    I've never been one to say I wouldn't vote for Clinton in the general. I would go, I would vote. But I would do so for no other reason than that the idea of another four years of a conservative government makes my blood run cold, and voting in a swing state means that my vote might actually matter.

    I'm invested in Obama and I have fought and will continue to fight like hell to see him win. I fought like hell for Kerry in '04 as well because, while he wasn't the ideal candidate, it really mattered to me and I thought he would make a good president. But at this point, unless something changes, I can't see myself fighting like hell for Clinton. In the last few months her tactics have made me lose any passion for the idea of seeing her in office. It's looking more and more like a Clinton presidency would just be more politics as usual and I think we've reached a point at which we need to look for something more than that. So, yes, I would vote for her as the lesser of two evils if it came to that, but I can't say that I would be actively working to get her elected. A Clinton nomination would turn a life-long political junkie like me into another passive party-line voter.

    "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
    "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

    by eColt on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:44:53 AM PDT

  •  It is because I am a health care voter. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    punkdavid, crazyshirley2100

    As someone who has worked for insurance companies (BCBSGA before and after the Wellpoint merger), corporate hospitals, and independent physicians, I can see huge differences between HRC's health plan and Obama's.  Her plan is written to the advantage of the insurance companies and hospital chains.  Her plan does not adequately address the profiteering and waste driving up the cost of health care.  An unforeseen consequence of her health care reform in the 1990's, in Title 2 of HIPAA, lowered the quality of physician provided health care for all Americans, and virtually destroyed the independent community physician.  

    Mandate, schmandate -- you make health care less expensive, less wasteful, less tied up by policy written by lobbyists, then you make it more universally available.  And despite those that laud her wonkishness, she does not anticipate the consequences of her compromises in her zeal for political success.

    I could never vote for her, because I believe it's better to vote for a candidate in the general who will do nothing over one who will create more problems.  

  •  The reason people say this is because (6+ / 0-)

    they're so vain they think everyone in the Democratic Party will suddenly gasp, "Oh my God! We better nominate Candidate X, because if Candidate Y gets the nomination, that blogger won't support the ticket! We can't possibly win without that blogger's support!"

    "I'm bad at being subtle, but I ain't that tough." -Joan Jett

    by foxfire burns on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:46:08 AM PDT

  •  If Hillary gets the nomination (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DaveV, mjd in florida, webphantom

    I will certainly vote for her over McCain, although I don't think it will make much difference here in Colorado (a state which we already know doesn't count) because McCain will win against her in a walk.

    If she wins legitimately (by which I mean she has a clear plurality of the pledged delegates not including MI and FL, I will campaign for her as part of working for down-ticket Democrats (although they'll get creamed with her at the top of the ticket).

    If she wins by illegitimate means, for the first time since I worked for LBJ in 1964, I'll sit this one out and take up a hobby (which will actually make my wife really happy).

    In any case, I'll never be able to see Bill Clinton (a guy I busted my ass for in 1992) the same way again.

    "I may have fucked my life up flatter than hammered shit, but I stand here before you today beholden to no human cocksucker."

    by John R on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:46:30 AM PDT

    •  At least acknowledge (0+ / 0-)

      That you are deriding "Winning the nomination according to the rules set forth by the party" as "Winning by illegitimate means."

      ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

      by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:52:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Superdelegate is a Deal Breaker (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jeepdad, SlowNomad, mjd in florida

    I will vote for either candidate in the general unless the nominee with fewer delegates and votes is selected by superdelegates, whomever that may be. I would leave the party for good, and I realize I probably wont be missed.

    •  What color is the sky on your planet? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TooFolkGR

      Because on planet earth, the sky is blue and the democratic party nominee in the USA is selected by delegates at a convention. Eighty percent of those delegates are selected by districts in caucuses and primaries.

      THERE IS NO DIRECT ELECTION OF A NOMINEE!

      Not on this planet, anyways.

      So how's the weather in Fantasyland?

      Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

      by homogenius on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:07:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am equally frustrated by this attitude (0+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        homogenius

        But it's just going to end with mock outrage and false appeals to "Democracy."

        I want Obama to win it fair and square, according to the rules that were outlined before anybody announced they were running.  And I believe he can or I wouldn't be supporting him.

        ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

        by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:09:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There havent always been superdelegates (0+ / 0-)

        They were instituted in order to subvert the will of the people in the event party leaders were not happy with the candidiate who won (ie George McGovern, Jimmy Carter).  Why would I want to stay in a party where the leaders distrust the will of the people.  Frankly I would rather be a member of fantasyland party.

        This seems like it would be an obvious issue after Bush/Gore.

  •  This seems to be yet another (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mjd in florida

    of Hillary's failing argument. The argument that 'yes Hillary may be a piece of shit; but she is slightly less shitty than McCain.' Good luck with that.

    I won't be voting for HRC ever.

    "How high flies the solitary bird."

    by terryhutchinson on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:47:36 AM PDT

  •  It depends on the circumstances (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mjd in florida

    If one candidate goes in with a lead in pledged delegates, but the superdelegates vote to give the nomination to the other candidate, I will seriously consider abstaining from the Presidential race (not vote).

    "Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher

    by Cali Scribe on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:47:54 AM PDT

  •  I decided I don't support Hillary (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jeepdad, Mojo Jojo, eColt

    I can't say for sure if I'll vote for her not.

    I was comfortable voting for any of the dems going into this primary season, but I don't see how she can repair the damage that's been done in my eyes.

    Call it eighth grade, or whatever you want, but I would honestly have trouble casting that vote in good conscience.

    •  Go read on MyDD (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      homogenius, llamaRCA

      You will get a very different view of the election.  I was amazed.  If this is the only Democratic blog you are reading, it is no wonder you feel that way.  

      Or if you are depending on the latest media spin, which is even worse.

      I would encourage reading both sides.  There are articles, etc. that are not even mentioned here because they do not put forth the prefered Obama image.  

      Honest.  And the super delegate thing.  That is media bs.  Obama said to trust him to deal with the super delegates.  So far, he has run a superb campaign.  I trust him on that.  Angst over what might happen with super delegates is time wasting right now.  Right now, we need to concentrate on GOTV.  This is what we can control.  The super delegates will fall in place.

      "He who fears something gives it power over him."--Arab proverb

      by crazyshirley2100 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:55:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I've not said it once. (0+ / 0-)

    I will support who ever wins. But all I hear are Obama folks saying they WON'T support HIllary. Then we have Obama's wife saying that Obama folks won't vote for Hillary but Hillary voters will vote for Obama.

    I made a note of the fact because I hadn't considered this...and bought Michelle's words at truth value...my husband says he would rather leave the country altogether than vote for Obama. He's a union electrician. Loves Hillary. I heard he and his dad saying they would vote for McCain but would never vote for Obama because he is "racial epithet" here. (can't repeat it makes me sick). I was shocked. NO matter how many times I tell my husband, show him articles that Obama is not muslim he does not believe it. Nor does his father. They believe he is muslim and that if he gets in it's the end of the world.

    Now, I had not considered that the faction would cut both ways. The irrational Hillary haters, and the racists morons are about the same thing. Emotion mind voters. Authoritarians who think in black and white.

    We have a lot of them on this site...and most of 'em are the OBama folks...what happens when the other crazies start speaking out in response to republican prodding.

    Obama being black is not the issue...it's that they believe his is muslim despite the facts...just like you all believe Hillary is evil despite the facts. How big a voting block is this???

    It scares me. The only solution is to call b.s when you hear it or see it.

    The greatest gift you can contribute to the goal of world peace is to heal.

    by wavpeac on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:50:52 AM PDT

    •  michelle said that? (0+ / 0-)

      I hadn't heard that one.

      •  not exactly (0+ / 0-)

        The point has been made, though, that a lot of new voters and independents Obama has attracted wouldn't be as likely to switch over to a Hillary vote. The party faithful would probably switch votes either way (as a whole, there are always exceptions) but a lot of Obama's support is coming from people that are attracted to him, not the party as a whole.

        "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
        "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

        by eColt on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:57:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  hmmm (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      crazyshirley2100

      But all I hear are Obama folks saying they WON'T support HIllary.

      You need to get out more.

      John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

      by taylormattd on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:58:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Screw them (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      punkdavid

      Why the hell should we care about people that simply won't be reasoned with? That's crazy - it only enables the behavior. The only way to possibly turn these people around is to force the fear on them so they can see it isn't real. If you vote against Obama and he isn't elected, they'll just drag it back out for every subsequent candidate and we'll never make any progress.

      The honest Republicans I know don't want to see that attitude enabled any more than we do, and might consider crossing party lines to redress it if they don't connect with McCain.

      A lot of the hate toward Hillary that you see here is because they see that she is actively trying to marginalize voters. Until 4 days ago, I would have been happy to vote for them. Now, I'm ashamed that she has the (D) after her name. Some people have seen that for a while. I don't see that as irrational, rather as a value decision on how candidates of the party should treat voters. The GOP hate for her is mainly irrational though. Half of those people still think that Hillary killed Vince Foster with her bare hands.

      -6.00, -7.03
      Obama '08

      by johnsonwax on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:28:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My point was that there are more like this (0+ / 0-)

        than we realize. Authoritarians come in both republican and democrat. The black and white thinking is a fundamental "weakness" of our country.

        The greatest gift you can contribute to the goal of world peace is to heal.

        by wavpeac on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:57:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  stop. you are making my point. Authoritarian. (0+ / 0-)

        Obama has made some of the same types of moves. This has to stop. You are no more healthy in your emotion mind thinking than bush.

        The greatest gift you can contribute to the goal of world peace is to heal.

        by wavpeac on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:59:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  out in the real world (2+ / 0-)

    I haven't met anyone supporting HRC who says they refuse to vote for Obama, but rather they say they will vote for him although might be apprehensive about it.
    While I've seen quite a few diaries threatening to vote for McCain or write in a candidate if HRC is the nominee, in the real world the only people I have heard say this is republicans and indies, not dems.
    While I appreciate lists of why someone is not good-enough, I have a hard time understanding sheer hatred towards her when it is accompanied by an ambivalence towards the republican alternative.

  •  From the respsonses I see that there (6+ / 0-)

    must a hell of a lot of either really old eight graders, or a whole hell of a lot of illegal underage voters posting here.

    Perhaps you should have a poll.

    Those who will refuse to vote for the nominee, select one:

    Poll suggestion.

    I'm really an eight grader who stayed back a lot

    I'm really too young to vote. I shouldn't even be out when the street lights come on.

    I'm too stupid to vote

    "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

    by shpilk on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:53:53 AM PDT

  •  "Support" vs. Vote (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jeepdad, llamaRCA

    IMHO, it would be supremely, well, stupid to be a progressive Dem and not vote in the November election for the Dem candidate, whoever that may be.  

    Supporting a candidate -- with time and/or treasure -- is another thing, and that is indeed what may be at risk if we fracture the Party in the primaries.

    "If there is no sufficient reason for war, the war party will make war on one pretext, then invent another . . . after the war is on." -R.M. LaFollette

    by Spirit of Fighting Bob on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:54:03 AM PDT

  •  For me, it has nothing to do with the supporters (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jeepdad

    of the other candidate. It has to do with promises being broken and the candidate trying to strong arm the party into doing something that is inherently undemocratic. If HRC wins by SDs alone I will not support her in the GE. She is trailing in the popular vote, delegates assigned and states won. She should have bowed out with dignity on the 13th. What she is doing, most likely at the behest of her controllers (Penn and McA) is deplorable. The rhetoric her campaign is using borders on racism. Nothing about her makes me feel good about being an American.

    •  I agree with you in principle. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      psilocynic

      We'll have to wait for it all to sort out.

      But if one candidate does truly put his/her own interests over the party, then that could be a dealbreaker for me.

      Don't Legitimize Fox News.
      "Democrats have the heart to care."

      by jeepdad on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:59:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have no objections to Hillary (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jeepdad

    supporters. I think some of them are foisting irrational arguments in defense of their candidate, but I don't begrudge them for letting their heart get ahead of their head now and then - we all do it. I try and make a point to rec the level-headed posts.

    My sole objection to Clinton now - and this really only developed in the last few days - comes based on comments straight out of her campaign. I could excuse some of the gaffes such as the Iowa mayoral race and such just as I have excused some from the Obama campaign (these things happen), but the last 4 days have made clear to me that the Clinton camp just doesn't care if the voters or party support them or not - just that the electoral math works out.

    I'll tolerate that in the general against a party that I expect will play the same game and be more ruthless than we ever dare to be, but not within our own ranks. Obama is not Hillary's enemy and neither are the voters - but her campaign seems intent in waging a land war against the very people that she'll need in November. You can call it evil or cocky or whatever you want, but I call it selfish and shortsighted and I won't support an effort that I think will leave the party in ruins.

    -6.00, -7.03
    Obama '08

    by johnsonwax on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:59:15 AM PDT

    •  I think she's banking on the fact that (0+ / 0-)

      most Democrats will forgive and forget once the general elections kick off and the mud starts flying.

      I'm pretty emotionally aligned with Obama right now and my heart tells me I could never vote for Clinton. But my brain tells me I'll get behind her in the end, albeit with not as much enthusiasm.

      Don't Legitimize Fox News.
      "Democrats have the heart to care."

      by jeepdad on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:01:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Check this out for a reality check (0+ / 0-)

    http://news.yahoo.com/...

    Jesse Jackson Jr is the attack dog for Obama.  Obama is playing to win.  I would expect nothing less, or I would not bother to vote for him.  

    "He who fears something gives it power over him."--Arab proverb

    by crazyshirley2100 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:01:32 AM PDT

    •  Here is the money quote (0+ / 0-)

      One black supporter of Clinton, Rep. Emanuel Cleaver of Missouri, said he remains committed to her. "There's nothing going on right now that would cause me to" change, he said...

      ...In an interview, Cleaver offered a glimpse of private conversations.

      He said Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. of Illinois had recently asked him "if it comes down to the last day and you're the only superdelegate? ... Do you want to go down in history as the one to prevent a black from winning the White House?

      "He who fears something gives it power over him."--Arab proverb

      by crazyshirley2100 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:04:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The strong-arming on both sides makes me go grrrr (0+ / 0-)

        Super delegates that can be swayed by yet another phone call shouldn't be super delegates.

        I doubt any of them are interested in tearing apart the party, because it's not in their best interests.  I think we should all give the super delegates breathing room and let this thing play out for a bit.  

        I think that somehow, we learn who we really are and then live with that decision. -Eleanor Roosevelt

        by dewberry on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:27:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  eighth grade? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    homogenius

    You are way too generous...

    ---
    Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

    by Jeffrey Feldman on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:01:39 AM PDT

  •  It is all about conviction. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Mojo Jojo

    So what you are saying you are without conviction and nothing matters to you but party politics?  I wonder if this makes you part of the problem as opposed to part of the solution.

    Yes we can!

    •  If I didn't (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      homogenius, dickinabox

      Paddle left at every opportunity, I would be part of the problem, to me.

      I vote Obama with all my heart in the primary.  But I am unwilling to walk away from a chance at a Democratic congress and president.  I think that would be very short sighted of me.

      "He who fears something gives it power over him."--Arab proverb

      by crazyshirley2100 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:06:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  conviction is how we got bush (0+ / 0-)

      just sayin'

      •  Harumph (0+ / 0-)

        I honestly am still astounded at how we got Bush.  He never did anything well in his life.  I was astounded when he became governor of Texas.  I was astounded that anyone took him seriously as a presidential candidate.  

        Everything he has touched has gone straight down hill.  Every company, the Texas Rangers (when he owned), everything.  I could not believe anyone took him seriously.  But that is why I fear Huckleberry.  

        And what if Huckleberry gets the VP nod?  Man, will that be a scary picture.  Old man McCain backed up by the zealot?  GAK

        "He who fears something gives it power over him."--Arab proverb

        by crazyshirley2100 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:17:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  2000 vs 2004 (0+ / 0-)

          Well we know he cheated his way through the 2000 election.  But in 2004, I traveled a lot for work and so came in contact with lots of repubs (I live in SF so am normally immume), and you won't believe how many people said they were voting for him because of his "convinction".  What they meant is that he is a self-proclaimed christian who hates gays and a-rabs.  Seriously.

    •  Neither (0+ / 0-)

      I am about pragmatism, and I have standards.  Obama was not my first choice, and in fact a few months ago, I was leaning Hillary ahead of Obama (still behind two other choices).

      But recent events have led me to remember why I really don't like Hillary Clinton and the way she conducts herself in her political manuevering.

      I have enough conviction to ALWAYS vote for the person whom I think will do the best job, from the choices I have before me.  Currently, that means Barack Obama.  Given the choices of Hillary or McCain, it would be Hillary.  

      Even if I don't particularly like either of them, I'm not going to go with my "convictions" and vote 3rd party or not vote, and thereby enable McCain to possibly win, because in addition to going with my convictions, I also look forward to the CONSEQUENCES of my choices.  Nader voters who continue to not admit that their vote helped enable GWB to be president make me sick.  

      Business is business, and Business must grow, Regardless of Crummies in Tummies, you know.

      by punkdavid on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 12:41:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Let me refer you to my diary on this topic (0+ / 0-)

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    And it's a Hillary-backer's right to refuse to vote for Obama, although I see less rationale in defense of that position than the reverse.

  •  I'm scared by the Obama supporters (0+ / 0-)

    Until quite recently I have been very fond of Obama & would have enthusiastically support him in the fall.  Now I'm not at all sure.  His supporters can't tell me anything he will "change" specifically, just that he will change everything.  I'm not sure what that means.  When I talk to Obama supporters I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of religious zealots.  That's the part I really don't like and is actually very scary, and if Obama wins the nomination & all of this Obama worship continutes I probably won't be voting for him.

    If Bill was still in charge, this wouldn't all be happening...

    by letsbepragmatic on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:06:53 AM PDT