Daily Kos

Bill Clinton pressuring Janet Napolitano, tearing apart the party.

Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:00:17 AM PDT

What if I told you that Bill Clinton had been calling women who support Senator Obama in states where Senator Clinton won, pointing out the fact that the majority of Democratic voters are women and telling them that if they stand in the way of the first woman president by using their superdelegate status to vote for Senator Obama, that they might have the rug of support yanked from under them and find a female challenger for their seats in the next election?  You'd say that was ludicrous right?  How dare he interfere with their free choice to vote for who they think is the best candidate?

OK, Bill Clinton isn't doing that.  And if he was there would be a media storm that would last at least a week over it.  But Jesse Jackson, Jr., not satisfied with the fact that Senator Obama is consistently getting 80% of black primary voters, is calling black superdelegate supporters of Senator Clinton and bringing up the specter of a primary challenge if they stand in the way of the first black president. (link)

In an interview, Cleaver offered a glimpse of private conversations.

He said Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. of Illinois had recently asked him "if it comes down to the last day and you're the only superdelegate? ... Do you want to go down in history as the one to prevent a black from winning the White House?

"I told him I'd think about it," Cleaver concluded.

Jackson, an Obama supporter, confirmed the conversation, and said the dilemma may pose a career risk for some black politicians. "Many of these guys have offered their support to Mrs. Clinton, but Obama has won their districts. So you wake up without the carpet under your feet. You might find some young primary challenger placing you in a difficult position" in the future, he added.

I've been writing for weeks that I think the Obama campaign has been playing the race card to inflame black voters against Senator Clinton even though she and her husband both have strong records in support of civil rights.  But I'm not even going to link to those diaries here because I think this latest move by the Obama campaign removes the last shred of doubt over whether the Obama campaign intends to transcend race or whether it will play the race card to further its own ends.

And I think this playing of the race card threatens the unity of the Democratic Party more than anything Senator Clinton or her campaign has done.  What if black superdelegates think Senator Clinton's experience and her ability to win working class voters make her the better president?  Should they, as superdelegates, be allowed to have input or should they be forced to vote with the way the popular vote went in their district?

If you go with the argument Jesse Jackson, Jr. is making then the judgment of elected officials who have run campaigns themselves and know what it takes to win and what it takes to govern, the judgment of those superdelegates is completely thrown out the window and they should be forced to vote in support of whoever won their district.  If you follow Jesse Jr., voting for a black president is more important than voting for who one judges to be the better candidate.

This just seems like naked racism to me.  And I don't see how it can keep from tearing the party apart along racial lines.

Additional comments about MoveOn
And while we are on the topic of pressuring superdelegates, I would like to point out that MoveOn, I think driven mostly by youth activists though I may be wrong about that part, is working against the candidate who stood up for them and for the candidate who did not.  Senator Clinton supported MoveOn when John Cornyn brought up the amendment to condemn them over the Petraeus ad.  And she took some heat for it from potential rivals like Mitt Romney, Rudy Giuliani and others. (link, link)

Here is the list of supporters of MoveOn when the vote was held.  You will notice that Senator Obama's name is not on the list because he missed the vote, even though he had just been there to vote on the Boxer measure. (link)  If he had voted to support MoveOn, his name would have been between Murray and Reed:

Those who voted to support MoveOn:

Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)

So, according to supporters of Senator Obama, it makes no difference if Senator Clinton has stood up for Civil Rights or if she has stood up for MoveOn.  And nevermind that Obama tipped his hand on how he will fight for his supporters in this instance.  Those things make no difference.  With friends like these....

Tags: Bill Clinton, Jesse Jackson Jr., Emanuel Cleaver (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 165 comments

    •  these aren't "hit diaries" (20+ / 1-)

      Anything that doesn't worship Obama is called a hit diary these days.  DKos used to be a place where news was discussed and all these stupid accusations didn't get thrown at people who were reporting what actually happened.  The place has become so anti-Clinton and pro-Obama that a lot of Clinton supporters, and others, are not even coming here any more.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:17:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

        •  I thought you were deaf? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          seattlegonz

          Glad to know you can hear.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:22:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have a cochlear implant (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Quicklund, vets74, forestgreen

            Don't make the assumption that deaf people are totally deaf. Some are, and some aren't depending on the level of their hearing loss. Without my implant, I'm profoundly deaf which means I can't hear anything at all. With it, I basically hear 75% of what's being said in conversation.

            •  Well, you were talking (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              roseeriter, macmcd, JoanH, seattlegonz

              about how upset you were that the Clinton town hall wasn't captioned.   I was going by that mostly.  I'm happy to know that with the implant you can hear at least some because deafness is a profound disability.

              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

              by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:37:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I can't follow what's being said on TV WITHOUT (0+ / 0-)

                captioning. Don't make light of my deafness, you asshat.

                •  I'm not making light of it. (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Lying eyes, seattlegonz

                  I was just explaining why I thought you were totally deaf.  Calling me an asshat is uncalled for.

                  The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                  by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:15:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you were questioning my disability (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    dadanation

                    and insinuated that I was faking it.

                    •  No I didn't. (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      seattlegonz

                      You read that into it.

                      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                      by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:19:26 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  well, you may not have intended that (0+ / 0-)

                        but that is how i read you stuff also.  "i thought you were deaf" read very much like you were casting doubt as to whether or not the other person was in fact hearing impaired.  your ensuing comments only further cemented that impression.

                        _______________

                        it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                        -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                        by dadanation on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:58:16 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Whatever. (0+ / 0-)

                          Who the hell are you to know my intention?  I happen to have a parent who is hard of hearing, so I know what a profound disability that can be.  And I missed kindergarten because I was in the Children's Hospital in Little Rock when it started and then after that I spent the first year of school wearing braces on both legs.  I know what disabilities are.  You don't know me and I'm not going to let you accuse me of not giving proper respect to those with disabilities.  

                          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                          by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 04:31:58 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  i newver said i knew your intentions (0+ / 0-)

                            i said that regardless of them, it read -- to an outsider not engaged in the give and take of that dialogue between you two -- that you had questioned the authenticity of that person's claim of being hearing impaired.  i'm not clear how you got the notion that i was suggesting that i knew your intent.  

                            further, i never questioned your own disabilities or your capacity or ability to empathize or relate to someone else with a disability either.  to suggest that is realy not fair and not founded.

                            there are a lot of people here at dKos with disabilities. a geat many of them are people i rely on and trust and who are part of my support network as i manage my health and life with my own disabilities.

                            but i never once suggested that you were not giving proper respect to someone with a disability.  

                            _______________

                            it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                            -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                            by dadanation on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 04:54:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Sorry, that's the way (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              dadanation

                              it came across to me.  Internet communication is a very imperfect medium.  My apologies if I falsely accused you.

                              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                              by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:13:13 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  apology accepted. (1+ / 0-)

                                Recommended by:
                                mikepridmore

                                thanks for the response.

                                and if for whatever reason my comments were not as clear as i thought, i too apologize.  

                                it is hard enough living with a disability or living with loved ones who are disabled to have to feel as if you have to justify your relationship tn them or that you have to somehow show your "earned credibility card" because you sense that your character is being questioned.

                                if you felt i was doing that in any way, i am very sorry.  i did not intend that to be the case.

                                peace.

                                _______________

                                it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                                -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                                by dadanation on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:17:19 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

            •  Cool. I'd like one that's selective.... (0+ / 0-)

              Magic, so's I can hear what really being said.

              Dixie Chicks, Amy Winehouse, Imus, and Rev. Wright. Overcome our evil with good.

              by vets74 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:58:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  seriously (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          macmcd

          do you have ANYTHING of substance to say on the topic of the diary?

      •  Again, you're confusing (5+ / 0-)

        "realizing the consequences of voting a particular way in a particular circumstance" and "threatening."

        One is a reasoned analysis used as a persuasive tool.  The other carries a consequence that the speaker can and supposedly will bring about.

        Don't read what you think he meant, read what he said:

        Jackson, an Obama supporter, confirmed the conversation, and said the dilemma may pose a career risk for some black politicians. "Many of these guys have offered their support to Mrs. Clinton, but Obama has won their districts. So you wake up without the carpet under your feet. You might find some young primary challenger placing you in a difficult position" in the future, he added.

        Is Jesse Jr. going to do something to Cleaver?  Does he even have the ability to do so?  Or is he using a rational analysis, shared by many impartial observers as a means of persusasion?

        I see only the latter.  This is the exact same mischaracterization as the media painted Obama's own comments.  This is no different than the electability argument -- it's fair game to point out likely results of people's actions.

        3 June 2008: I join the Democratic Party

        by Rorgg on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:28:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  He may look for a (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          roseeriter

          primary opponent for him.  That was definitely the gist I got from the piece.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:39:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Weasel Word (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            neroden, Rorgg

            "gist"

            Of couse that was the "gist." Thats what insinuation is all about, convincing you that something happened despite the lack of compelling evidence.

            Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
            "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

            by Christopher Day on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:51:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Weasel Words are All we Have (0+ / 0-)

              Almost every candidate diary that focuses on "Negatives" (be they anti Clinton OR Anti-Obama) is predicated on the diarists own out of context interpretation of the candidates actions.  Actually in most cases it's not even the candidate, but rather a perceived surrogate.  And about half THAT time it's just someone who "supports" the candidate.

              Attacking a negative candidate diary or diarist around here for being weasel-y in making their point is pointless, otherwise we'd have no time for anything else.

              ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

              by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:13:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  If Bill had used siimilar (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              dcg2

              tactics you guys would trip over yourselves to make it as bad as possible.  When I see a veiled threat you say I use "weasel words."  How about less accusation and more conversation?

              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

              by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:18:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Basing your argument (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil

                over what other people "would do" if something else happened is a spurious argument, unless you can display some pretty impressive precognition abilities.

                3 June 2008: I join the Democratic Party

                by Rorgg on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:41:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sometimes... (0+ / 0-)

                  But in this case, it's pretty clear that we all know how the community would react to Clinton doing this.  You can't deny that, can you?

                  That would be like denying that the Republicans won't suddenly become defenders of Congressional oversight and the Constitution once a Democrat is President.  Sure, you could argue that I'd have to have pretty impressive precognition abilities to talk about how Republicans would react to a Democrat in that situation,but most in the community would know I was right.

              •  "Tactics" (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil

                You are the one making an accusation. I'm just demonstrating that its built on a foundation of sand. Jackson is making an argument. You have presented no evidence to either refute that argument or to justify your characterization of it as a veiled threat. Instead you rely on insinuation or "gist."

                In any event, I'm sure both campaigns have made extensive use of both threats and enticements, veiled and unveiled, in their efforts to lure the support of superdelegates.

                We don't need to speculate on what my response would be if the Clinton campaign advanced similar arguments. Because they already are in the form of the comments about which states "matter." These statements don't outrage me. They amuse me, because unlike Jackson's words, they don't make a compelling argument. They are desperate, clumsy and unpersuasive.

                I'm not the Obamamaniac you seem to suppose. Its true that I have a special distaste for Clinton, but I am watching most of this with bemused detachment, I assure you.

                Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
                "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

                by Christopher Day on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:28:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I might have misunderstood (0+ / 0-)

                  Jackson's comments.  Based on the NPR interview yesterday with Emanuel Cleaver, it seems that there is not pressure from within the Congressional Black Caucus.  But someone(s) are definitely pressuring supporters of Hillary and using unsavory tactics at times to do it.  Evidently there were some very nasty robo-calls made against John Lewis. (Story here) I would like to hear Senator Obama denounce these tactics.

                  The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                  by mikepridmore on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:12:20 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  oh come on (0+ / 0-)

              it doesn't take a psychic to tell JJ is threatening people with primaries.

        •  You're right, this isn't a threat (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rorgg

          Voting against 80% of your constituents exposes you to primaries, without Obama's campaign having to lift a finger.

          Geez, this diary turns out to be dishonest.

          -5.63, -8.10 | Impeach, Convict, Remove & Bar from Office, Arrest, Indict, Convict, Imprison!

          by neroden on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:50:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  But it's inconsistent (0+ / 0-)

          Obama has quite a few CA, and MA delegates. By his reasoning they should all go to Hillary, now that she's won their states or districts.

      •  Most Blogospheres are pro Obama (0+ / 0-)

        except Hillary's campaign people...

      •  This TR is just awful (2+ / 0-)

        What he's saying is objectively true

        ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

        by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:55:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I am an a Obama supporter (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      seattlegonz

      but I would like to know why this doesn't bother you?
      I admit that in the scenario above, I would be furious with Bill Clinton, but my first instinct was to make excuses for what Jackson was doing.

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:10:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Taylor Marsh's aliases and minions out (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Si Ella Puede

      in full force.

      Yesterday on Huffpost 3 of Taylor Marsh's aliases were outed. That IDIOT Marsh actually creates more than one username to post distorted propaganda about Obama....she is really sick and delusional!

      CondiLiar Rice, enabler and war criminal

      by gaiilonfong on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:12:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  this diary is fact, not hit (0+ / 0-)

      do you have anything of substance to add or just more stupid snark?  

  •  JesseJackson Jr.s MOTHER supports Hillary (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mikepridmore, Si Ella Puede

    wonder what he is threatening her with.

  •  If you liked Tom Delay, you'll (3+ / 1-)

    Recommended by:
    mikepridmore, Lying eyes, Si Ella Puede
    Hidden by:
    neroden

    love Obama's tactics

    [Tom Delay will] go out and find a primary opponent to run against them, and he’ll tell them -- or he’ll let it be known -- that he’s going to "primary" them.

  •  You are right, this is wrong (7+ / 0-)

    Dead wrong.  Just as wrong as the Clintons subtly playing the race card (among other things her comments about Louisiana).  Just as wrong as the Clintons suggesting that some states don't matter.

    Not even close to enough to make me change my vote but definitely wrong.  Just sent an email to Senator Obama via his web site asking him to put a stop to it.

    Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

    by eparrot on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:16:03 AM PDT

    •  What comments about LA? (0+ / 0-)

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:18:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  About how Obama won because of the AA (0+ / 0-)

        community's strong tradition... That was in her response after losing Washington, Nebraska and Louisiana.  I am sorry but I do not have a link - it was covered by all the media, it's not an obscure remark.

        Clinton is more subtle about it than JJJ, but it's the race card just the same.

        Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

        by eparrot on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:14:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What does Napolitano have to do with this diary? (3+ / 0-)

    Or tearing apart the party, for that matter.

    Bogus.

    Bring me a blind camel.

    by pucklady on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:17:33 AM PDT

    •  It is a comparison (6+ / 0-)

      to what Jackson is doing.  If Bill was actually pressuring Napolitano with a primary challenge the Obama supporters would be screaming bloody murder.  I put that in to get them to see how wrong it is for Jesse Jr to be using race as a hammer.

      And the use of race is tearing apart the party.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:20:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hardball tactics in a Presidential race? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jorndorff, neroden, Hope08

    Imagine that.

    The only objection I have is that Obama talks about his desire to transcend "politics as usual".

    In reality, we know that's not possible.

    But he's got a loyal base of support that helped him when it counted.  Frankly, he doesn't need them anymore, and we can expect more hardball in the future.

    "Hope and change" is a great slogan.  The Clinton team is just wishing they had picked it first.

  •  Let me count the ways. (0+ / 0-)

    First, Jesse Jackson has NEVER been subtle about using race. This certainly sounds like something he is likely to say to a representative.
    He isn't appealing to the politician's race, necessarily. He could also be appealing to the politician's sense of self-preservation. Not because of Jesse Jackson, but because of the voters. Many black politicians represent majority black districts. He could have simply been asking this individual to consider the reaction of his constituents.

    Also, Bill Clinton talking to women about women's issues is a little different than Jesse Jackson talking to an African American about African American issues.
    One, Bill Clinton is not a woman. If, say, Patti Solis-Doyle were the one doing the talking, it'd be a little different.
    Two, Jesse Jackson is not a former president and head of the democratic party. Jackson has about 1/2% of the influence of Clinton, so 'possible' threats carry a lot more weight from Clinton than they ever could from Jackson.
    Three, your comparison is apples and oranges. Women and African Americans as groups just can not be compared. For so many reasons.

    And finally, you can't throw the words of every supporter in Obama's face, just like you can't for Clinton. If so, the NY NOW head would have sunk Hillary by now.

    •  This is Jesse Jr. (3+ / 0-)

      And he is Obama's national co-chair.  This is what the Obama team wants to be done evidently.  And I find your rationalization of this blatant racism disgusting.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:25:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Explain to me why this is racist (0+ / 0-)

        and not political.

        John McCain votes against Children's Healthcare

        by Hope08 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:27:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I Think It's More Hypocritical Than Racist (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          dadanation, empathy, Si Ella Puede

          It isn't "Racist" for the Clintons to say Obama got much bigger support from African Americans in SC because he is one, though they were attacked for race-baiting for having done so.  And to be fair I don't know if JJJr. ever accused them of race baiting.  The notion that Obama supporters here wouldn't have a problem with it is definitely hypocritical.

          I don't have a problem with it myself though I think the logic is foolish.

          ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

          by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:28:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How can you deny (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            roseeriter

            that asking superdelegates to vote based on race alone, ignoring their preference, is racist?  I don't get that at all.

            The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

            by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:32:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because I Know What Racism Is (0+ / 0-)

              Racism is believing that someone's race makes them inferior, and treating them in kind.  Saying, "Vote for your fellow African American" isn't any more racist than saying, "Vote for your fellow Harvard Alumni" is anti-Harvard.

              It's just that political correctness has so damaged the liberal brainstem that whenever we see an acknowledgement that people even HAVE different races we assume it must be racism and come unhinged.

              ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

              by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:38:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  When I read it yesterday (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            neroden

            I thought, that's a little harsh.  But it is reality.  Before TT, I thought how pols like John Lewis would be in big trouble if their districts went overwhelmingly for Obama.  80% is strong sentiment.  It's not difficult to imagiae some wanna be politician thinking "This just might help me get elected"  Right or not, when you take a position in opposition to 80% of your constiuents, it's bad politics.  

            John McCain votes against Children's Healthcare

            by Hope08 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:34:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Not race-baiting (0+ / 0-)

            JJJ accused her of being a racist.  Virtually openly.

            His rant on CNN after Hillary teared up about how she didn't cry after Katrina (as if he even could know that) was probably the most disgusting thing I have seen in a Democratic Primary in years.

        •  He wants them to (0+ / 0-)

          vote for the "black" candidate.  How hard is that to understand?  It is both political and racist.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:31:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Dishonest Post (4+ / 0-)

    First, what JJjr is doing is wrong.  But your post is totally stupid and your title is misleading.  I prefer BO over HC, but I stated that I will vote for her if she is our nominee.  The title of your post is one of the reason I don’t like the Clintons...they are spin masters and cannot be trusted.  Just like you, a liar who cannot be trust.  If you want to do a hit piece about BO, just do it, its your right, but don’t mislead me.

    •  the title is to (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dave B, roseeriter, Lying eyes

      set up a hypothetical.  If you don't like that, fine.  But don't start with baseless Clinton bashing and ignoring what your candidate's national co-chair is doing over a disagreement over a diary title.

      This use of race by the Obama national co-chair is disgusting.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:27:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obama is the spin master (3+ / 0-)

      Obama people spinned Clinton's remark as racist when it is not.  They were trying to inflame black voters to be victims so that they will be too angry and vote in droves.

      Obama campaign  leaked the Hsu, and Pakistani fundraising to make it a scandal when they also have Rezco.

      Obama call protests againsts sexism in MSNBC as misogyny.

      Obama people leaked the non story Bill Clinton lobbying as a private citizen to a foreign country (no US effect) and attempt to make it a scandal.

      They mischaracterize Hillary's health, SS , Iraq plan

      I tell you in this election---it is the Obama campaign that is vicious.  One can be vicious but right -- but when you are vicious with white lies that is wrong.

      There are only 2 candidates.  If Hillary's camp is really bad--there are so many sleazt ways to drive Obama's negatives down which I am sure GOP will employ but Clintons are not doing it.   And Mark Penn is really incompetent
      because there are so many ads you can make to make the point
      Experience Matters  ( like Rockstar sleeping at Hiliday Inn wants to be president),  etc.

      Fact check Obama spins on Hillary http://facts.hillaryhub.com/

      by timber on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:38:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In Obama's Defense (0+ / 0-)

        A lot of the race-baiting spin came from totally unaffiliated Obama supporters.  I suppose he could have done more to quash it.

        ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

        by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:57:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, I think you mean her Iraq vote (0+ / 0-)

        And I don't think they've mischaracterized it... she did vote for authority to use force, which brings up a shortcoming in judgment on her part.  Let me ask you this: Let's say I elected you my Senator and you had a chance to vote on that force authorization, knowing that Bush was the president.  Would you have voted for that authorization?

        Bill Clinton's remark was definitely not racist, but it did hit a nerve, didn't it?  And Hillary Clinton's saying Martin Luther King, Jr's effect on the Civil Rights Movement was cursory was just plain idiotic (why her campaign management didn't get the news outlet to just redo the take or have them ask the question again is beyond me).  Don't believe me:

        "Dr. King’s dream began to be realized when President Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act," Mrs. Clinton said... .

        From the New York Times and they're not necessarily rooting for Obama either (well, not yet anyway).  The Obama campaign made no official comment or response to that statement, knowing that anyone reading that or hearing that would blow their top.  See, "Obama supporters" as you call us didn't really have to do anything because the candidate herself already royally messed up.

        You may mention Rezco and I think it should be made public.  Yet, have you read in recent days about the renting of one of Clinton's campaign donor lists to a mass mailing firm.  It's an interesting read.

        Viciousness... well, the Rezco thing was broken by Clinton supporters?  I don't know.  How about the smoking pot issue that Clinton tried to call attention to, to no avail.

        Also, how do you feel about Clinton going around and advocating the seating of the Michigan and Florida delegates and counting their votes, all the while knowing that she agreed to not count them at the beginning of the primary season.  How do you feel about Clinton calling for a debate on Fox News, after a moratorium was declared earlier and agreed upon by all the candidates?

        She's fighting for every vote, and I admire her for being resilient and being a fighter.  She's had to fight all of her political life.  Yet, these latest campaign tricks smack of changing the rules when you're not happy with the outcomes.  how do you see things?

        Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

        by BasharH on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:00:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is dishonest (4+ / 0-)

          Hillary didn't say MLK's role was cursory, she was pointing out that you still need leaders who are willing to make the hard decisions to accomplish anything in a Democratic society.

          ---- now they sit and rattle their bones and think of their bloodstone days...

          by TooFolkGR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:05:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, that was my opinion... (0+ / 0-)

            I was not quoting Clinton when I said her campaign thought MLK's role was cursory.  That was my own perception of how her words, that I've quoted above and cited in the media with the link, can be viewed. I'm not African American but I do have the common sense to not say one person in the Civil Rights movement is better and more important than another person.  Everyone had a role in its success and some people perceive those roles weighted more for different people.

            I'm not sure if she was baited into her statements or not, but her quote was soon out there and that was that.  And if you don't think what she said was inflammatory, I can find no other explanation for the fact that Bill Clinton has been desperately trying to repair communication lines amongst African American constituents since early this year.  You and I both know the Clinton campaign is incredibly disciplined (or was) and there was just no reason for spitting out such a comment.  I know she's not racist, and frankly most Democratic voters are not racist.  Yet, it's about perceptions.  Can you imagine the GOP twisting her words around even further, and suddenly becoming the champion of African Americans?  I sure can and they would love to do it too.  It points to a lack of foresight in the Clinton campaign for how her words can be misconstrued, as she was the front-runner at the time (they also have a lack of foresight in campaign fund-raising, management, in campaigning itself).

            Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

            by BasharH on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:45:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  this is nonsense (0+ / 0-)

              you intentiuonally mischaracterize the quote in the NY Times by HRC.  You stated she made an "idiotic" statement when she made MLK's efect on Civil Rights "cursory."

              you justified this statement with the HRC quote from the NY Times, which edxpressly does NOT say qwhast you claim it to say.

              you then go on to say:

              I was not quoting Clinton when I said her campaign thought MLK's role was cursory.  That was my own perception of how her words, that I've quoted above and cited in the media with the link, can be viewed. I'm not African American but I do have the common sense to not say one person in the Civil Rights movement is better and more important than another person.  Everyone had a role in its success and some people perceive those roles weighted more for different people.

              excuse me?  you WERE quoting HRC.  that snippet from the NY Times article wasn't spoken by me or mister magoo, it was HRC.

              HRC never said -- as you continue to insinuate - that one person was more important than another in the Civil Rights movement.  she in fact was accurate when she stated that MLK's dream began to be realized when LBJ signed into law the Civil Right's Act.

              note that King's dream is what she was talking about -- and the translation of that vision in action by way of LAW. something LBJ did.  the laws don't sign themselves into being...

              this ultra-parsing of yours is so unnecessary and unfair.  there was nothing "idiotic" about what HRC said regarding MLK and LBJ and there was nothing "cursory" either.

              if all facts and all truth are now subject to being revised depending upon the setting and the whim of the author, then we are in deep, deep trouble.

              _______________

              it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

              -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

              by dadanation on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 12:20:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nonsense? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                f furney

                First of all, if you happen to actually read my comment, I give you the quote in the block.  Did I say her quote spelled out "cursory?"  Nope.  I wrote that it was my opinion that the quote emphasizes more LBJ's work than MLK, Jr.  And you know, I can state that I think her comment is idiotic... it was insensitive.

                Excuse me... I included the quote there so that you could read the quote and make up your own mind, while also reading my interpretation of it.  What's the problem here?  If you want to say my interpretation is wrong, or that you disagree with it, as you definitely do, then that's fine.  But as I did give you the quote in the block, you can see my opinion isn't based on a literal view of what she said.

                You don't seem to have any problems divining what I am insinuating with my opinions of HRC's quote.  Can you tell me that after reading her quote, you don't see how it can be interpreted how I've described?

                I like the law sentiment... very clever.  No they do not sign themselves and LBJ did a great service to the movement.  We should probably thank all the Congresspeople as well (there was a filibuster involved).  And as the Civil Rights Act was first brought up by JFK (who had a terrible time getting any traction on it), we may need to also include his input in the matter.

                We can agree to disagree on this.  I'm sure Clinton will provide many more quotes on which we can disagree.

                Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

                by BasharH on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:22:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  you do cite the NY Times for corroboration (0+ / 0-)

                  And Hillary Clinton's saying Martin Luther King, Jr's effect on the Civil Rights Movement was cursory was just plain idiotic (why her campaign management didn't get the news outlet to just redo the take or have them ask the question again is beyond me).  Don't believe me:

                     

                  "Dr. King’s dream began to be realized when President Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act," Mrs. Clinton said... .

                  From the New York Times and they're not necessarily rooting for Obama either (well, not yet anyway).  The Obama campaign made no official comment or response to that statement, knowing that anyone reading that or hearing that would blow their top.  See, "Obama supporters" as you call us didn't really have to do anything because the candidate herself already royally messed up.

                  you make the assertion of "cursory" and "idiotic" and then link to the quotation to prove your statement.  unless somehow the "don't believe me" introduction line is not meant to be the lead in to the NY Times quotation.

                  which it is.

                  specifically, it is there, in the part of the ensuing paragraph that i bolded.  you leave it clear as crystal that that quotation (from the Times, who is not (yet) an obama supporter -- and therefore "pro-Clinton) is meant to reinforce your statement.  

                  and i am not sure why you would take the simple fact of LBJ's signing and making real the DREAM of MLK and then minimize it with the rest of the players/dramas/players/process (*especially the JFK comment).

                  everyone's contribution can be and should be acknowledged and respected but you would seem to make sure that the reality of LBJ's effort be so reduced as to be nominal.  it was anything but nominal.  and LBJ, the skilled senatorial leader prior to his vice presidency/presidency, was more than just the last man standing who had to do a pro forma action to make the bill law.  as president he was artful in moving through the congress a civil rights act that had real meaning and real power.

                  i am certain there are many clinton comments we would agree with and disagree with just as i am certain the same is true with obama. in this instance i am hard-pressed to agree to disagree when you are not being up-front or fair in the way you characterize  the clinton statement.

                  _______________

                  it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                  -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                  by dadanation on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:20:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Corroboration... (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    f furney

                    This is how I see it -- Senator Clinton gives her statement, which is the quote within the block. &n