There Will Be NO Do-Over in Florida

Can we please stop this particular speculation. Below the fold is a copy of a letter from a state committee woman answering State Representative Dan Gelber's suggestion for a do-over by mail.

From the Miami Herald:

My dear friend Dan Gelber,

I am responding as a State Committeewoman and the Chair of the FDP Campaign Committee. A Vote by mail campaign in Florida would cost about $4 -6 million to run, and there is no one on this green earth who would spend those dollars, when we had a valid, legal and record breaking voter turnout in the January 29th primary. We would never disenfranchise those 1.7 million voters who listened to the FDP, and numerous other organizations urging them to go out to vote for their preferred candidate on January 29th.

But even more important, there are no do-overs in elections, and certainly will never be one on the FL primary for the following reasons:

1. The FDP spent months assuring the Democrats in Florida that the January 29th primary was an important election that everyone needed to participate in. There were numerous e-mail efforts to get the word out, major media interviews of Karen Thurman, and discussions at the State Democratic convention in October to encourage all democrats to go vote.

2. There was significant grassroots campaigning going on all over the state on behalf of all the major Presidential candidates. In addition, there was ample opportunity to learn about every candidate by watching televised debates, reading newspapers and participating in online campaign activities. In fact one candidate even violated the pledge by airing national commercials throughout Florida for a week before the primary.

3. We assured the democrats that the delegates would eventually be seated and the process of selecting delegates is now in place.It is up to the DNC Rules committee and Howard Dean to return 1/2 of our delegates to us immediately, at a minimum.

4. The 1.7 million people who voted in record setting turnout for Florida Democrats attests to the understanding that their voices were being heard. We pushed a count every vote campaign and that campaign continues, only now it includes the important message, count every state.

If the DNC really wants to take back the presidency in November, then Howard Dean will figure out a way to reinstate Florida's delegates. His Rules committee violated its own rules by imposing a sanction beyond the allowable sanctions, when they attempted to take away 100 % of our delegates, when their own rules only provide for a sanction of half the delegates, and he has done nothing to rectify the violation of their own rules.

The Point is Every vote counts, and Every State counts, Florida must count

Cindy Lerner
State Committeewoman, Miami-Dade County
Chair, FDP Campaign Committee

I'm sure everyone is going to say that this opens up a lot of other speculations.

Not really. Kos has already gone over this. After the super delegates do their job and coalesce around the best choice for the party thereby making one candidate the clear leader, the delegates will be re-instated.

If Clinton is the unlikely winner, the delegates can be re-instated as is. If Obama is the winner the delegates will be split between the two and reinstated so that they have no effect on the outcome.

•  and what if it's close enough

  for florida to be able to make the difference?

  by Turkana on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:50:31 PM PDT

  •  look closely at who Cindy Lerner

    is associated with

    by TAPayne on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:53:01 PM PDT

    •  clearly

      the fl delegates won't be seated, as they are, if they're going to make the difference.

      by Turkana on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:57:55 PM PDT

      •  give them a delaware do over like 1994

        by TAPayne on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:11:24 PM PDT

        •  1996 sry

          by TAPayne on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:23:13 PM PDT

      •  Everyone wants a 'do over' ....

        and some just want downright disregard of the voters voice with an even splitting of the delegation regardless of who the voters voted for.

        Her's a novel thought;  What if all the Florida Democrats get ticked off with the 'do over' and that reinforces their resolve and Hillary takes the 'do over' with the same margin as the actual real election on the 29th.

        It's a hope, but it will be a difficult task to accomplish since the Obama camp wants a caucus, and we know how they use that to their advantage.

        by emsprater on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:48:56 PM PDT

        •  caucus wouldn't be right

          another primary would be most fair.

          by Turkana on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:54:14 PM PDT

  •  FEC Records: Lerner Is a Clinton Donor

    I just posted this at The Field:

    Update: One Democratic Party official from Miami-Dade, Cindy Lerner, fired a letter off to Gelber (and the media) opposing his plan.

    Lerner, this year, donated $2,000 to Clinton's presidential campaign and another $1,250 to Emily's List, one of the groups making independent expenditures to support Clinton.

    Interestingly, Lerner seems resigned to a possible deal in which Florida could get only half of its 205 delegates seated at the convention:

    "It is up to the DNC Rules committee and Howard Dean to return 1/2 of our delegates to us immediately, at a minimum."

    If done proportionately, that would shave Clinton's Flordia freebies from a 38 delegate advantage to 19. Although the DNC rules commission would also have the option of making the state split its delegates evenly between Clinton and Obama (in other words, symbolic seating for some, but no scales-tipping to result from it).

    by The Field on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:10:39 PM PDT

    •  All the State Party people

      are Clinton supporters. Which means there won't be a do-over.

      That is not a bad thing for Obama. If he continues to rack up pledged delegates, the supers will come around and Clinton's finagling will be for naught.

      by Tally on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:22:53 PM PDT

•  It sounds like the Democrats deserve better

  than this Cindy Lerner gal.  Let me see if I got this straight, the DNC states a year and half before the FL primary that they cannot go before February 5th if they want to have their delegates seated.  FL Democrats and Republicans overwhelmingly support having a primary before Feb. 5th thereby ensuring the delegates are not seated.  And Cindy, in her brilliance, has been assuring the democrats that the delegates would eventually be seated.

  Democracy deserves better.  I hope the Florida Democrats remove this Hillary supporter from her Chair.

  by theotherside on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:52:37 PM PDT

  •  This was a Clinton strategy from the beginning.

    They think these delegates are their firewall.

    by Blogvirgin on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:43:41 PM PDT

    •  they seem to have a lot of firewalls

      and the Obama campaign keeps burning them down.

      by hyperstation on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:46:04 PM PDT

•  Federal Takeover of Florida Elections

  first palm beach and broward counties in 2000 and then sarasota in 2004 and now this mess. what a banana republic of a state!

  by reformdem on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:54:02 PM PDT

  •  Nonsense

    and the "throwing this at the wall repeatedly until something sticks" stuff is getting old.

    I don't think any of these delegates should count on the first ballot, and I live here. If you bend the Party rules because it might be a problem at the convention, you might as well not have rules at all.

    But in order to appease both sides and knock off the arguing about it, at worst, you should do what kos suggested yesterday: split the delegates that exist now and be done with it.

    Whatever, as long as the talk about a do-over vote stops. That is lunacy.

    by o the umanity on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:56:32 PM PDT

    •  i don't mind a re-vote

      I live in Miami-Dade and would prefer a different senario that allows us to caucus. But, that said, rules are rules and the state party knew it. We need a complete remake of the party structure and leadership. Joe Garcia is a good first-step in Dade ... but there needs to be wholesale changes. This clusterfuck only magnifies the need.

      by CocoaLove on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:13:30 PM PDT

      •  Join your DEC and get your

        friends to also join.

        by Tally on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:24:29 PM PDT

  •  rec'd and I am a Hillary supporter

    that has been advocating around these parts for the voter- and not just in FL but also for the DTS voters in LA.

    So, that being said, could Florida possibly fuck up even more?  Fucking ridiculous!

    by linc on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:57:16 PM PDT

    •  Just remember

      the voters didn't fuck up with this primary, any more than they fucked up the 2000 recount.

      IMHO, it was not about the voters then and it isn't about the voters now. This new spin seems to be about saving the FL Party leadership's dumb ass--again--under the guise of "Preserving the Will of The People of FL".

      Right. That's what is so infuriating about this whole thing to me: if the delegate count wasn't close, would they have cared as much about our voices? Somehow, I doubt it.

      by o the umanity on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:12:04 PM PDT

•  I hope they split the Fl delegates

  because I voted for Edwards(my heart), but I would have voted Obama(my brain), if I thought my vote was going to count.

  by KimInFl on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:54:10 PM PDT

  •  maybe you can feel my pain

    I voted for Obama. Sigh.

    by CocoaLove on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:14:42 PM PDT

•  I'm so tired of this...

  I don't want my vote counted! The time to fix this was before Iowa and the other states, not after. You can't change the rules in the middle of the game, which were designed for the purpose of protecting those other states. Hillary said nothing about counting Florida until conveniently after those states had already voted.

  by Progressive America on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:54:44 PM PDT

  •  She said enough

    by being the only major candidate to leave her name on the MI ballot.

    by linc on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:58:51 PM PDT

    •  She said enough by signing the pledge

      to not campaign in Florida. When she wanted to win Iowa and NH, she was all for it. Once they voted, no more...

      by Progressive America on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:01:58 PM PDT

    •  she promised

      When questioned by NH voters about her decision to stay on the MI ballot, she assured folks in NH that MI was just a beauty-contest that wouldn't count for delegates.  Then later, after pocketing her NH win, she asked for the MI/FL delegates to count.  It is the timing of her change of mind that I don't like.

      by Stevie on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:33:39 PM PDT

•  No. No. No.

  I'm tired of robbery, chickanery, and other unsportsmen-like behavior being rewarded - especially when the cheater either whines to get reinstated or bullies like this person is doing in the above email.

  by nolalily on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:55:07 PM PDT

  •  Whatever.

    so Iowa, New Hampshire are the perfect examples of sportsman like states?  Give me a break.  The whole dem primary system is stupid and has forever let a bunch of white, republican more times than not state determine who the dem nominee will be.  That is unfair, that is unsportsman like.

    Count the fucking votes!

    by linc on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:01:13 PM PDT

•  I belong to no organized political party...

  I'm a Democrat.

  Will Rogers

  by Viceroy on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:56:42 PM PDT

•  Who appointed Cindy Lerner the "Decider" on this?

  This letter is merely the position being taken by one of the participants in the dispute.

  On the other hand, IF Clinton and Obama work together to accomplish a re-scheduled primary we will ALL benefit during the general election season.

  by Bill White on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:57:02 PM PDT

  •  Lerner is representative

    of the State Party heirarchy.

    Actually, we need to get past all this stuff and get a decided candidate (preferably Obama) and move on to the general election.

    Do-overs are definitely NOT needed.

    by Tally on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:28:02 PM PDT

•  No Do-Over. No delegates.

  That's what will happen since FL created this mess (both Dems and Reps in FL) by trying to cut in front of others.

  by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:58:57 PM PDT

  •  They should have been aloud to cut

    they are a far more important state in any election than Iowa or New Hampshire.  I will spare you  the electoral history lesson, because I know you know.

    by linc on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:03:09 PM PDT

    •  You're thinking 2004. I'm thinking 50-state.

      (Gore's 2000 race pre-handicapped badly by Clinton scandals and had a ton of other hard complexities, so let's not bring that into the picture for a comparison).

      by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:47:52 PM PDT

  •  Listen to yourself

    You sound like some gradeschool tattletale. Maybe it's time to raise the level of the discussion.

    by kuulray on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:12:37 PM PDT

    •  No, I am talking principles

      which maybe alien to people supporting the Clintons.

      Hold proper elections. Count everyone's voice legitimately.

      by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:43:03 PM PDT

      •  please make that

        'some people supporting the Clintons."

        I am being a bit jocular on this, of course :)

        by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:58:53 PM PDT

•  The delegates may end up being seated

  but they will not be determinative.

  Not a chance.

  One of the candidates will concede the nomination prior to the convention.

  At that point, the delegates will no longer be determinative, and the issue will go away.

  by livosh1 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:00:56 PM PDT

•  What about Hillary for You and Me

  bring back our democracy.

  by Sam Wise Gingy on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:06:07 PM PDT

•  is that true about the maximum penalty being 1/2?

  do you have a link to a source on that, because that's the first I've heard.  I know you are quoting Ms. Lerner, not saying that yourself, so I fully understand if you don't.

  by eparrot on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:08:34 PM PDT

  •  I don't think so...

    You're asking the right question.

    Here's the actual rules: http://s3.amazonaws.com/...

    Skip down to page 24.

    "Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state’s delegation. In determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state’s delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the next nearest whole number."

    BUT:

    "Nothing in the preceding subsections of this rule shall be construed to prevent the
    DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing additional sanctions,
    including, without limitation, those specified in subsection (6) of this section C.,
    against a state party and against the delegation from the state which is subject to
    the provisions of any of subsections (1) through (3) of this section C., including,
    without limitation, establishing a committee to propose and implement a process
    which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which
    shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state’s division of presidential
    preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is
    practicable under the circumstances."

    So, losing 50% is the minimum. The DNC was entitled to strip them all. So, no, it's a lie.

    by dunsel on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:26:02 PM PDT

    •  I have diaried this more extensively here

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      by dunsel on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:42:31 PM PDT

      •  thanks, great diary

        I recommended it.

        by eparrot on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:22:33 PM PDT

•  Even after they knew that they could not

  hold an early primary, they went forward and encouraged voters to vote anyway.  Now they want everyone to think that they're victims.  They're not, they're frauds.

  by nupstateny on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:24:27 PM PDT

•  Hopefully, this will all be moot

  If Obama wins Wisconsin and Hawaii and wins either Texas or Ohio, it's hard to see Clinton pulling out a win in PA or NC.  I don't know that she'd drop out if she lost Texas or Ohio, but I imagine we'd see a lot of pressure put on her to do so.

  by ClaryinVT on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:35:23 PM PDT

•  If The Florida Delegates Are Seated...

  ...as presently constituted and tip the delegate balance in Clinton's favor at the Convention, the Dems will not only lose the election but possibly the Congress...and return to the wilderness for a generation.  Although Florida had quite a turnout, there's a reason millions stayed home...they were told their vote wouldn't count.  

  The only way to resolve this equitably is to allow ALL voters an opportunity to select delegates that will be seated at the Convention.

  by Triangulate on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:37:14 PM PDT

•  Re Florida

  I'm a Floridian.  Turnout was not because of the encouragement of the party, quite the contrary.  The turnout was because of a tax issue on the ballot that brought out every homesteader (for the initiative) and everyone who was worried that services would be cut (against it).

  by cjacob on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:58:00 PM PDT

•  Here's Why the Florida Turnout

  I'm a Floridian.  Turnout was not because of the encouragement of the party, quite the contrary.  The turnout was because of a tax issue on the ballot that brought out every homesteader (for the initiative) and everyone who was worried that services would be cut (against it).

  by cjacob on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:01:33 PM PDT

  •  Didn't RNC handle problem better than DNC?

    I know it is heresy to suggest that the RNC was smarter than the DNC. But in retrospect it would have been better if the DNC had been less rigid. The "half-punishment" meted out by the RNC (taking away half of the delegates from Fla. and Mich.) was more sensible. If the Democrats had done that, all candidates would have been free to participate in the Fla. and Mich. primaries (as the Republican candidates did), and it might have avoided the current ambiguity and un-Democratic reliance on the whims of super-delegates (who appear, in some cases, to benefit financially from their super-delegate status).

    by sherrylynn on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:23:01 PM PDT

    •  Not campaigning in the state

      was due to the Four State agreement and was not from the DNC.

      As soon as the candidates agreed to the pledge, the FDP was in a no-win situation.

      Personally, I favored backing off and making the primary non-binding and then scheduling caucuses or a convention late in the cycle. But, the FDP just didn't think they could sell that to voters.

      The people who were smart were the RPOF. Everything worked just like they wanted with Gov. Crist becoming a hero in making McCain the winner.

      by Tally on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:17:40 AM PDT

•  Hillary won't concede

  until she's used up her whole bag of tricks: superdelegates, Michigan, Florida. Clintons don't like to lose.

  by kuulray on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:19:47 PM PDT

•  Republicans Win Again

  It turns out that the Florida primary date was moved up in violation of the DNC not by the Florida Democratic Party per se, but by Florida's Republican controlled state legislature. Now, I don't have a roll call of that vote which would show how Florida's minority delegates voted in that decision, or the transcripts of the dealings between the legislature and the Florida DP. But the final commitment was by a Republican legislature. That served to disenfranchise Florida Democrats, either by not seating them, or seating only when irrelevant, or at least by screwing up the election which wasn't conducted with the full participation of all candidates, or the national Party.

  No matter how this debacle turns out, it's indisputable that Florida Republicans have screwed Florida Democrats yet again, now for 8 years solid. Florida Democrats last had  full voice in electing their president in 1992, over a decade and a half ago. And since Bush Sr was the president then after 12 years screwing everyone, I don't believe that they did even then.

  by DocGonzo on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:22:55 PM PDT

•  We were all sold on the fact

  that a presumptive nominee, known before the convention, would seat our delegates. That was a big factor in deciding to stick with the January 29th primary date.  That and the fact that a primary election insures the greatest participation (greater than say a caucus would).

  Now it is looking like there won't be a presumptive nominee,  Our state party made a bet and it didn't come in.  And now we are screwed.

  Florida Kossacks Rock

  Blog Florida Blue

  by gatordem on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:55:32 PM PDT

  •  Not

    all of us were sold.

    by Tally on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:19:57 AM PDT