Daily Kos

What it would take for this Edwards supporter to switch to Obama

Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:20:26 PM PDT

I supported John Edwards. I was (OK, I still am) one of those diehard flaming Edwards supporters who especially loved his fighting spirit and his commitment to economic justice.

While I'm sure that both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama consider economic justice to be a good and important thing, neither has really made it a centerpiece of their respective campaigns. But they are the only two games in town right now, and some or us have to choose up sides (if our states haven't voted yet, or if we give money to candidates we support.

Since I live in Oregon and we don't vote till May 20, and since I have been known to give money to political candidates I support, and since my butt has been perched on this fence for a few weeks now and it's starting to hurt, I need to make up my mind.

I'm a white woman in her 50s, a feminist, a lawyer. I even went to Yale. So I'm right in Hillary Clinton's wheelhouse. And I have enormous respect and even affection for her, although we have never met. I read her memoir avidly, and felt that it gave me a terrific window into Hillary as a person, and I liked her. And although I spent the better part of 8 years furiously angry with her husband over one thing or another (DOMA?! WTF WERE YOU THINKING????), I loved him and I still do.

Unlike many people, I have no inherent issue with Hillary Clinton's oft-reputed ruthlessness. God knows the Republicans are ruthless, and will drag out every dirty trick there is, and Hillary would be ready. The vast right wing conspiracy in its heyday did not, could not, defeat her. She is indomitable and strong. She is also a human being and a woman very close to accomplishing what no woman has ever done before: secure the nomination of the Democratic Party for the Presidency of the United States. As a woman of her generation, I find this thrilling. Can't help it.

But I share the generalized fears, oft-expressed, that Hillary's presence on the ticket could unite the Republican base in a way that John McCain -- their prospective nominee -- himself could not. I don't want to even think about the ugly cultural seepage we will all pick up from talk radio, Faux News, etc. over the next few months if she is the candidate. But if she IS the candidate, I will work my ass off for her, give her money, and, yes, relentlessly pimp her to all my friends.

Now to Obama.

I just finished reading Frank Rich's column in today's New York Times, which of course is beautifully written and makes a point that is being made over and over these days, in the MSM and out here on the blogs and just in daily conversation -- there is SOMETHING GOING ON OUT THERE, and Barack Obama is at the center of it.

That "something," whatever it is, is getting people fired up, and ready to go, to get him nominated and elect him President. Those fired up people apparently include not only young people but also older people who are responding to his expressed desire to change the culture of partisanship in Washington.

Well, I'm all for that, but I also believe that the correct response to excessive Republican partisanship is NOT unilateral disarmament by the Democrats. So all this kumbaya talk, frankly, well, I think it's naive crap. But I recognize that there's a chance he's only saying it because he thinks it will get him elected, and more intriguingly, there's a chance he's really onto something.

As I look at these two candidates still standing, I feel a tug between my heart and my head.

My heart wants a lover, not a fighter. My head wants that fighter really badly.

I still think the ruthlessness of the Republicans cannot be overestimated, and that -- particularly if confronted by either Hillary Clinton or any African-American Democratic candidate -- their opportunities for malicious mischief will be many. But if it's really true that Obama is creating and riding an historic wave of political change, none of that matters if he is the nominee.

Here's what I need:

I need to believe that he will ride that wave, and use it, like a steamroller if necessary, to create the kind of progressive change America needs. Universal health care, tax fairness, civil rights, economic justice, and of course a little peace would be nice.

(Who wouldn't enjoy a little peace?)

So if it's all about getting along, and reaching across the aisle to collaborate with the other side, and all that crap, I'm not buying it. But if it's about riding this wave to achieve the kind of dominant political position that will create real and lasting and substantive change in the United States, well then, I'm in.

Poll

Did you ever support John Edwards?

19%50 votes
9%24 votes
5%13 votes
27%72 votes
33%88 votes
3%9 votes
0%0 votes
0%1 votes
1%3 votes

| 260 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: John Edwards, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, 2008 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 102 comments

    •  very nicely done, thanks. (7+ / 0-)

      Oh such anguish, the same tug. If this is the tsunami, it will rise and we will all be swept up by it.  But let's use the wave to wash clean this stench called radical conservatism, neoconism, theocracy...

      sign the petition at http://www.impeachbush.org

      by DrKate on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:30:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  OK, several points (8+ / 0-)

      First of all, I understand your position.  I'm in Iowa, so I have the luxury of using the loooong campaign to flesh out support.

      That being said, I think people are misinterpreting the kumbaya. It isn't meant for Republican politicians so much as it is for Republican and independent voters.

      If we can get them to vote with us, and they start calling their Senators and saying, "WTF? Why aren't you supporting X" then the dominoes are going to start falling in our direction.  Granted, it won't happen immediately, but over time it will if we play it right.

      Second, I think he's trying kneecap the Republicans by reframing the debate.  I'll give you a good example.

      When he was trying to get ethics reform passed in Illinois, he had a provision in his bill that limited contributions and gifts to a certain dollar amount.

      Now, keeping in mind that he was working in a majority Republican legislature at the time.

      They objected to the contribution/gift restriction, so he took that out, but got them to agree to make records of contributions public.

      Once that happened, the Chicago press stirred up a virtual shitstorm about so many people taking so much money from well-connected people and lobbyist groups.

      The net effect was that the average contribution actually went down.  It accomplished much the same goal, but in a slightly different way.  Again, it's not an acquiescence, but a reframing of the issue.  Make something seem innocuous enough that it isn't going to offend anybody, but it ends up achieving the same net result anyway.  Politicians in Illinois were completely blindsided by the effects of this legislation.

      That being said, I don't think Obama himself can be the steamroller you're looking for.  He's going for a more or less transcendent form of politics that doesn't suit that message coming from him personally.

      What I think he's going to do is nominate somebody like JRE to be Attorney General and let him loose on the Justice Department.  Can you imagine JRE storming through the Halls of Justice?  I can...and I think he'd be sooooo effective at it.

      That way, he keeps his hands clean, keeps the movement going, and gets all the Rethugs anyway.

      All this being said, you really need to read The Audacity of Hope. Believe me, it isn't a manifesto on hope in our politics.  It is really a very wonkish book about how he sees our political divide and how to maneuver through it.

      I really think you'd get some good insight into the way he thinks if you read it.  It'll answer a lot of the questions you have.

      Also, keep in mind that he was a Constitutional Law Professor.  He holds the document in the highest esteem, and knows what it would take to restore balance to it.

      We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

      by DemocraticOz on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:48:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  we are the steamroller (4+ / 0-)

        I need to believe that he will ride that wave, and use it, like a steamroller if necessary, to create the kind of progressive change America needs. Universal health care, tax fairness, civil rights, economic justice, and of course a little peace would be nice.

        Like the author of this piece I'm a die-hard Edwards supporter.  I am a bit uncomfortable with the "kumbaya" factor, but I've come to realize that this is more a matter of Barack believing the old saw about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar.  I'm still doubtful, but I can't help but think that Barack is going to use the people's demands for change as a "steamroller" to crush his opposition; he's just going to be nicer about it than I would be.

        This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

        by Thought Crime on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:33:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Oh Vard... (5+ / 0-)

      we may not agree on OR-Sen candidates, but we agreed on Edwards. I'm still undecided. No matter the vitriol aimed at Hillary, I have a feeling in my gut that tells me she'd fight harder than Obama for UHC. Her energy policy is much stronger than his proposal as well. However, I think he'll put forth some good ethics legislation, probably nothing bold but...at least he'll put forth something. I also think Obama will energize the youth and get lots of indies voting for him.

      All this translates into...I'm still undecided.

      Netroots Director for Oregon Senate Candidate Jeff Merkley

      by sarahlane on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:57:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hell, (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vard, sarahlane, planetclaire4, katz5

        the OR-Sen candidates agreed on Edwards.  They've got good heads on them.

      •  But who is she fighting for? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        planetclaire4

        I think HRC would fight harder for her policies, and her ideas, and her agenda.  But would she fight for ours?  I'm not willing to believe they are they same thing.  

        Hypothetical scenario: let's say round one of UHC gets passed (hooray!) but in the long run it proves insufficient.  Would Hillary support legislation to improve it and move to single payer or would she fight to keep "her program" intact and unaltered?  I suspect it would be the latter.

        Maybe I'm mis-judging her, and If I am then I apologize, but her campaign seems to be about her experience, her ideas, and her plans for our country.  Not about what we really need or want as a nation.

        This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

        by Thought Crime on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:40:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  hey vard (0+ / 0-)

      I've been actively canvassing JRE's supporters (the ones who have yet to choose between Clinton and Obama) in the comments threads here to try to get a sense of what their concerns are about Obama and practically all of them point to the same thing you do: they just don't think he's a fighter. It sucks to quote yourself but this is what I suggested in an earlier thread:

      The difference between Edwards and Obama is not that one is a fighter and the other isn't. Both have fought hard in their respective arenas. But how they fight is very different.

      Its true that Edwards' style of fighting mirrors his experiences as a plaintiff's advocate. But I can only point out that governing is not the same as winning a civil case. The "other side" doesn't go away once the jury hands in a verdict. And if the last 20 years have taught us anything about politics is that aggression hardens and entrenches resistance. If you come to the table with the idea that you're just going to shove people around, they dig their heels in and look for ways to screw you over just as a matter of principle and tribal loyalty.

      Obama's combat style is very different. He mounts his battles with the presumption that you can weaken moderate opposition by engaging them in a respectful dialog. He scrambles their defensive lines by giving them no cheap excuses (or spiteful motive) to form up into a line in the first place.

      Will this work in every case on every issue? Obviously not, but in every case it has the effect of marginalizing the dead-enders, making them a smaller bump to steamroll.

      In any case, thanks for articulating so clearly what so many here think and feel and for opening up the discussion.

      The goal is not to bring your adversaries to their knees but to their senses. -- Mahatma Gandhi

      by kingubu on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:38:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you campaign "50+1" in the election, (11+ / 0-)

    you're going to be legislating "50+1" in Congress.

    50+1 doesn't pass healthcare. 50+1 doesn't give us impeachement. 50+1 doesn't get us out of Iraq. 50+1 doesn't get anything done.

    There is one candidate who gives us the chance to achieve a true progressive majority in Washington, and the very tidal wave of Democratic ideals you seek. This is a candidate who not only campaigns with a 50-state strategy, but lifts every Democratic candidate on the ticket on election day--and even before, as candidates as Donna Edwards have shown.

    We can win that majority with Obama.

    a gallon of blood for a gallon of oil!

    by haruki on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:25:15 PM PDT

    •  Being tough and partisan (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      planetclaire4

      doesn't mean a 50+1 strategy.

      •  Electorally, it does. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ksh01, nalin, haruki

        Unless you can reframe the debate and get large numbers of voters on your side, you're always going to be shooting for 50+1.

        Its just the facts of the electorate.

        Independents are the fastest-growing group in the electorate, and they've been surprisingly fluid leaning back and forth between Dem and Repug.

        If we can't get these voters onboard and commited to our cause now, before the GE, then we're still advocating a 50+1 strategy.

        Its just the way the math works out.

        We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

        by DemocraticOz on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:08:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Unless you can" (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          planetclaire4

          And we can reframe the debate and mobilize large numbers of people while being partisan and tough.

          •  I hope so. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            thisniss

            There's got to be a balance between being 'partisan and tough' and demonizing.

            If we make people feel demonized by our partisan-ness and toughness, then we turn them off.

            They stay home or vote Rethug.

            If we do it right, I have no disagreement with you at all.

            We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

            by DemocraticOz on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:28:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, (5+ / 0-)

              by partisan, I mean standing together, against the Republicans.  I don't mean demonizing them, I mean taking a stand and solidarity.  By tough, I mean taking the fight to them (essentially the 50 state strategy), making a stand on the issues rather than caving, and hitting our opponents hard on issues, but I don't think personalizing it ever helps (unless it's something like George Allen's macaca moment).  That's why I thought John Edwards was tough and part of why I supported him.  (Doing whatever it takes to win- the Rovian\Clintonian version of toughenss and partisanship- exposes a lack of scruples which is disturbing.)

              And I think such campaigns can have broad appeal.  How many times have you heard that Democrats are weak because they cave in to the Republicans demands?  How many times have you heard that there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans (because we're unwilling to take a firm alternative stance)?

      •  Clinton's Primary campaign has shown it (0+ / 0-)

        She campaigns just in big blue states in the Primary - because that is what she believed she can win with.  Now her campaign is talking abot winning on the backs of the Supers...  so she isn't even looking at getting 50+1 of the pledged.. she'd be happpy with 40+1, as long as the Supers are on board.

        What makes anyone believe that she would treat the General any differently?  She Won't.  She'll go for Kerry + 1, and the other states can rot.

        Flowers Bloom for my Ex - though Honeybees are pretty cool too.

        by Yoshi En Son on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:46:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Also (9+ / 0-)

      it is not just the Republicans that will need to be defeated to accomplish these things. Anyone who thinks that all of the democrats are on board with pulling out of Iraq and universal healthcare are in for a rude surprise (FISA). If an outsider like Obama defeats the ultimate establishment candidate it will put our enemies in the party on notice to get with the program.

  •  Imagine the feeling... (11+ / 0-)

    ...of voting early for Edwards, but seeing only Richardson, Clinton, Obama, and a couple of unattached delegates on the ballot. Then, before the primary here in Illinois, Edwards drops out. My late mother always said that the only wasted vote was the one you didn't cast, and I still believe it, but all the biomass flying around between Clinton and Obama makes me wonder.

    Oh, Mom said she'd vote Hillary, BTW. Too bad she didn't make it to 2008...

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight.

    by JeffW on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:26:10 PM PDT

  •  vard (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    oldpro, mattman, vard, flumptytail

    we must be soul sisters at heart - your whole diary could have been written by me.

    Your concerns - my concerns
    your fears - my fears

    If I had seen a true fighting spirit - my choice would likely have been different.

    So I am going with my head - but still have an open mind.....

    "Proud to proclaim: I am a Bleeding Heart Liberal"

    by sara seattle on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:32:43 PM PDT

  •  My heart is (5+ / 0-)

    still with JRE...

    I'm an Edwards Democrat!

    by Acebass on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:33:23 PM PDT

  •  I'd suggest reading the comment section ... (0+ / 0-)

    of the last EENR ...

  •  It's The Later. (3+ / 0-)

    So if it's all about getting along, and reaching across the aisle to collaborate with the other side, and all that crap, I'm not buying it. But if it's about riding this wave to achieve the kind of dominant political position that will create real and lasting and substantive change in the United States, well then, I'm in.

    The 50 state strategy.  Growing our party. Articulating progressive views to independents and people of faith in language they get.  Getting progreesive candidates elected and taking back congress.  

    Lets be honest.  The plans and platforms don't mean a thing.  We can't get congress to pass health care for our kids, and people think one of these candidates is going to be able to push through universal health care?  It's bullshit.  

    The only way any of the many bullet pointed positions, plans, and platforms these candidates like to talk about are going to come to fruition is taking back our government from the Republicans... and maybe a few Dems too.  One of these candidates can do that, the other can't.

    •  Neither of the candidates can do that... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kingubu

      but you can.

      Get off your butts, people, and work for congressional/senatorial candidates who need your support...and state legislators as well.

      Yes...the presidential race is vital but it's not the only race that matters.

      Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

      by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:06:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  READ! Hillary's EXPERIENCE is what led her to... (4+ / 0-)

    vote for the War in Iraq:

    This is from her speech dated Oct. 10, 2002

    "This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.

    And perhaps my decision is influenced by my eight years of experience on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue in the White House watching my husband deal with serious challenges to our nation."

    And now:  Barack Obama's speech from Oct. 2, 2002:

    "I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

    I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars."

    PLEASE MAKE A MAIN POST OF THIS!

    •  I resent the implication (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      slynch

      Your title implies that the diarist doesn't read and is uninformed.

      Same goes for me since I hold the same opinion she does.

      Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

      by Dave B on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:59:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  yes - she SOLD the iraq war to the senate (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      nalin, thisniss, haruki

      with those words.  with that "unique" perspective.  it wasn't just her vote... i remember very well, those two days of speeches - and we all waited with bated breath to hear hers.  what would she say?  her so-called insider unique perspective was trumped in the media, too -

      i'll never forget it.

      and for the record, re: chelsea's recent assinine comment re: that vote, there were others who voted against that war - i suppose she would accuse them of being "clairvoyant" as well????  

      no, i remember a much more empassioned and constitution-loving speech by a one Senator Byrd that clearly shows he got a different memo than HRC did.

      thx for the quote, glendaleguy2007.. interestingly, i don't think her youtube speech includes those words.  "cropped" if you will.  i'll have to watch it again.

      Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

      by jj24 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:11:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I remember Hillary's speech. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        thisniss, planetclaire4, Valhalla

        It was thrown in our faces, those of us that opposed this war, that stood aghast as the Senate, even many Democrats, voted for what was clearly going to be a disaster.

        John Edwards voted for the war too, but I forgave, with little hesitation, when he apologized and said his vote was wrong.  He didn't hedge.  He got the point.  

        But Hillary, instead, said, "If you want somebody that was against the war vote or says it was a mistake, then you should go vote for somebody else."  She really said that.  We have to take her seriously.

        I don't trust her to get us out of Iraq.  Never have.  That's why I chose Obama.  I have some doubts about him in some ways, but he's not part of the same decades old corrupt system.  Maybe he'll be corrupt in new ways?  I don't know, but as Bill Clinton said, at this point, I'm ready to "roll the dice."

      •  LOL. I guess Obama really was clairvoyant. :) (0+ / 0-)

        :)  :)  :)

    •  I've seen this elsewhere... Was it you? (0+ / 0-)

      Just because I agree with it -- if it is you spamming the exact same post... try to limit it.

      I know it is important, and I know you want everyone to read it.... but please don't spam.

      Flowers Bloom for my Ex - though Honeybees are pretty cool too.

      by Yoshi En Son on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:48:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Never supported Edwards (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    fumie, thisniss

    for president, but he got my vote for senate back in '98.  Still kinda pissed that he gave the seat up.

    I look at it this way:  Hillary can win, sure, and Obama can win, but with Hillary it'd be war from day one.  I can at least image Obama starting off with enough political capital and good will to get a few things passed quickly.

    Bayh-partisan: it's the new joementum

    by gogol999 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:48:13 PM PDT

  •  Obama will fuck up the republicans (7+ / 0-)

    Obama's "end to partisan conflict" doesn't mean that he wants to make a 50%/50% compromise with republicans. In fact, President Clinton is much more likely to have to compromise her agenda, because we know that she will have no ability to get any republican legislators on her side. Obama's strategy is to exploit the post 9/11 desire for unity and bring about a superficial unity and civility which he can use accomplish his agenda. He will bludgeon the right with the velvet hammer of unity, the same way that we were bludgeoned by Bush II. Think of all the radical conservative shit Bush (a complete moron, with zero rhetorical ability) was able to accomplish.

    •  better men than Obama have gotten bogged down (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vard, sara seattle, Wit Whither Wilt

      in the swamp that is the United States Congress. That's not to say he would make a bad president, only that we shouldn't expect him to be able to pass true universal health care, completely pull out of Iraq, and enact radical environmental legislation in the first month of his term.

      Bush had 9/11 to make him politically invincible. Al Franken called 9/11 Bush's "little black dress" because he would put it on for every occasion. And boy, did it work. Using 9/11 as a pretext he was able to start a war with Iraq, shred our civil liberties, increase his Congressional majorities in the midterm elections of 2002, and win reelection in 2004.

      Obama will not have that kind of political capital once the honeymoon is over and the hangover starts. He'll have a tough job ahead of him if he's elected.

      •  any pres will have a tough job (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        thisniss

        but Obama will have us fighting for him.  He won't have to get his hands too dirty in the swamp of DC.  Because the netroots will still be around to attack the Republicans and bad Dems that might obstruct a progressive agenda.  If we keep our knives sharp we wont have to worry about Obama being unwilling or unable to use his.

        This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

        by Thought Crime on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:45:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  A few points (6+ / 0-)

    - Economic justice is fundamentally a statement against divisions of class and power. That is precisely the message Obama is putting out there - just not specifically targeted against corporations.

    - Partisanship isn't all that it appears. Remember the West Wing line: "I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win."

    The partisanship we see now is solely focused on beating him, not on winning. Honestly, I don't think Hillary can take us to the 'winning' side of the equation mainly because the GOP despise her so much. Anything she puts forward will die a violent death simply to see her fail. But what we see in Obama - and this is borne out in both Illinois and in the US Senate, is that he does indeed cross the isle and come out winning.

    The question on health care is, do you want to beat them on the issue or do you want to win on the issue? Winning will be hard. Beating them will be impossible. Steamrolling them is beating them and the problem is that the people that feel like they are being steamrolled (and that's not your message to control but your oppositions) dig in their heels and fight for all they are worth. Remember Harry and Louise? The health care industry was about to get steamrolled and they convinced the middle class that they were going to get steamrolled as well. There was nothing the Dems could do to counter that, because once the message was accepted by the middle class, they stopped listening.

    The White House never made healthcare a shared problem and never got voters on their side. That however is exactly what Obama is doing and is getting independents and Republicans to support him. He's winning rather than worrying about beating them.

    - Ruthlessness is fine - but you don't use it against your own people. Hillary seems to be walking a line right now that some of us think is being ruthless to Democratic voters. I have a problem with that.

    -6.00, -7.03
    Obama '08

    by johnsonwax on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:49:12 PM PDT

    •  I guess I'd add (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      thisniss, planetclaire4

      it's not just the GOP that dislike Clinton...a lot of independents do too.

      NetrootNews coming soon!

      by ksh01 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:54:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Increasingly (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        thisniss, planetclaire4

        that's getting extended to Democrats based on how people interpret the 'significance' and whatnot of their vote. I was happy to support her until that stuff kept happening. At first I thought it was just me, but I checked a number of general news outlets and the typical reaction was the same - people in the south and midwest thought they were being told that they didn't matter.

        I know that's not directly what Penn was getting at, but indirectly it actually was. They didn't think those states were significant enough to campaign in - even when they were sure they'd win and had the money to do it. For all the 'experience' claims by Clinton and the 'rookie' concerns going to Obama, I think she's edged him out on campaign mistakes so far, and I'd argue hers have been a bit more damaging.

        -6.00, -7.03
        Obama '08

        by johnsonwax on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:17:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  ruthlessness against ones' own base is (7+ / 0-)

    unforgiveable.  sorry.

    also, unless you've been hiding under a rock, if you have been listening to what obama's actually saying at all, the "kumbaya" shit and the other characterization of obama leading the democratic party into unilateral disarmament is - well - dishonest.  so in order to give you the benefit of the doubt, i'll assume you have successfully unearthed yourself from your under-rock calamity.  you see, you insult obama supporters by way of these characterizations.  i'll also give you the benefit of the doubt, that you just couldn't tell you were doing that.

    on another note, as a woman, i see nothing whatsoever exciting about a woman running a shitty campaign based on perpetual victimhood.  it's embarrassing.  she had no problem sending our treasure to die for a lie.  god forbid she take responsibility for her actions.  and in this party's base, her actions on iraq were the wrong political move.  but it's clear - she didn't give a shit about us then or now.

    figure it out for yourself.  i did, and as the capable woman you are, i have faith that you can too.

    Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

    by jj24 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:53:37 PM PDT

    •  I've posted this question several times (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      thisniss, haruki

      and never gotten a response.

      Is there anyone willing to argue that Clinton has run a good or even decent campaign so far?

      •  people site it as proof that she is "tuff" (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        thisniss, planetclaire4

        However it just lacks basic integrity.

        If she truly were "tuff" she would not have caved into political expediency and voted to authorize Bush to go to war!  

        That's the acid test of how tough anyone is!  

        The most successful war seldom pays for its losses. - Thomas Jefferson

        by Judgment at Nuremberg on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:13:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  maybe they're trying to disenfranchise the (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        thisniss, planetclaire4

        entire party flagrantly in a desperate attempt to invalidate us altogether, once and for all.
        (sad, sardonic lol)

        Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

        by jj24 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:14:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  well, actually, yeah (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        oldpro, thisniss

        Her campaign hasn't been all that bad, it just suffers in the face of Obama's better campaign.

        I think if the field had been more level, her campaign would have been considered well run.  It's just that Obama's organizational skill is pretty awe inspiring.  And I truly don't think they planned on serious opposition.

        Much of what is found lacking about Clinton these days is that she's not Obama and doesn't carry enough positives to overcome that.

        I'm one of the few around here that doesn't believe Obama has it in the bag yet (I'm too superstitious, I guess), but if she pulls off substantial victories in OH, TX, and PA, they'll be calling it the political comeback of the century and Penn will be set for life.

        NetrootNews coming soon!

        by ksh01 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:00:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm probably not the person to answer, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        thisniss

        though there were times during the first few debates that, listening to her, I thought, okay, if she's the nom, I could vote for her confidently.  

        I've changed my mind.  (Though if she's the nom, I have to vote against McCain--I just don't see that as a "positive" vote for her.)

        But to your question--it used to floor me back a few months ago, listening to the babbling heads characterizing her campaign as "flawlessly run."  From jump there was that hysterical and completely irrational explosion over the Geffen "defection," with HRC or surrogates demanding Obama "give the money back!"  (To whom was he supposed to "give it back"?)  Can you imagine JFK reacting to a "defection" like that?  Why didn't Edwards scream at Kerry's endorsement?  (Well, maybe he did--privately--publicly he was adult enough to be cool.)  Did I want a four-year-old sitting at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?  Apparently I was the only one who was boggled by this, and maybe "kindergardengate" was only mildly irrational, but the Geffen reaction seems an insurmountable flaw to me.  Coupled with her demonstrated lack of scruples (FL and MI for just one), that's not what I deem a "flawless" campaign or even an acceptable campaign.  

        I realize my criteria are dismissible to many.

        Please, God, don't let the Democratic party make me vote for some pinhead who believes in the GWOT. God grinned...

        by planetclaire4 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:14:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

          Hillary Clinton did nothing wrong in Florida or Michigan.  Nothing.  She left her name on the ballot.  She didn't campaign there.  But Obama did...in Florida...and the excuse was that it was a 'national media buy' and not there fault it went into Florida too.  Well, here's some news on that front from the Center For Responsive Politics today:

          "Although the Democrats weren't able to earn delegates in Michigan or Florida, because the states scheduled early primaries without the national party's blessing, the hopefuls still spent nearly $3.4 million in those states. Hillary Clinton and Obama each spent about $130,000 in Michigan while Obama spent $1.3 million in Florida--more than any other Democratic candidate and more than eight Republican candidates, who were eligible to win delegates from the state."

          Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

          by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:34:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, in MY view, she should have been (0+ / 0-)

            nattering on about MI and FL being disfranchised BEFORE she "won" those states if she didn't want to sound like Tricky Dick.  She buttered her bread, now she can lay in it.

            Please, God, don't let the Democratic party make me vote for some pinhead who believes in the GWOT. God grinned...

            by planetclaire4 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:40:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Of course she has... (0+ / 0-)

        nevermind the propaganda from those who support someone else.

        No one runs a perfect campaign.  There are no perfect people.  There are no candidates who can control everyone who says anything at any time, anywhere in support of them.

        If Hillary had not run a solid campaign she would not still be standing.  We started out with a great stable of really good candidates.  Only two are still in the race...Hillary Clinton and the candidate who 'the big boys of the Senate...the establishment Dems who lost their own races' drafted to take her down.  Kennedy, Kerry, Daschle.  They went looking for a candidate to beat the Clintons - weren't willing to back Edwards either - and they found Obama.  

        If elected, he won't owe you...he'll owe them...everything.

        Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

        by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:24:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  ps: love these polls showing HRC w/no (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    thisniss

    edwards votes.  it really couldn't be clearer.

    Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

    by jj24 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:55:17 PM PDT

  •  I'm still voting for Edwards (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    vard, sarahlane, thisniss, planetclaire4

    People tell me thats stupid, let me explain why its not.

    He's still on the ballot. And technically no one is voting for anybody. We're voting for delegates to vote for those people. So when I vote, I am voting to give Edwards a delegate that he can use his own judgement to sway towards someone else.

    While it is nearly impossible he gets a delegate, impossibility should be no boundary. If it were the case I should not vote this way because its unlikely, then there is no justification for people supporting Dodd and Biden back in the day because their entire candidacies were unlikely.

  •  Your position (5+ / 0-)

    Is exactly where I'm sitting.

    I supported Edwards because I wanted a fighter.

    And I feel that the happy talk coming from Obama amounts to as you put it - unilateral disarmament.

    Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

    by Dave B on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:56:53 PM PDT

    •  I worried about this early in the campaign. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      thisniss, planetclaire4

      Started out with Edwards, but Obama was always a pretty clear second choice, for a number of reasons. One of the biggest is ethics reform.

      To fight, you have to stand up - and Hillary hasn't done so when it comes to taking money from lobbyists and PACs. And she had the nerve to tell Edwards, in the SC debate, that there was no difference between her practice and his. And Obama is in line with Edwards on this.

      Obama's not free from corporate influence, but his actions indicate that he recognizes it as a problem. Hillary has belittled the issue, as the same editorial board that would later endorse her pointed out:

      We’ve long grown used to candidates’ cherry-picking each other’s records to score points in a campaign. But the new Congressional ethics law, and the role Senator Barack Obama played in passing it, have been belittled in troubling ways that are worth noting.

      Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton voted for the ethics measure, but has lately suggested that it was neither a landmark change nor particularly controversial. Wrong on both counts.

      She can talk a good fight - but as long as the same old interests are sponsoring her, it's just that - talk. And I don't trust it.

      Help Russ Feingold help progressive candidates - support the Progressive Patriots Fund.

      by scardanelli on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:19:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  wow (4+ / 0-)

      I guess you really believe that.

      But you know what, the best "armament" is building the democratic party with independants and new voters. Without that, you'll just get continued gridlock. Major changes, like healthcare reform, no matter how many cool wonky details and graphs displayed, have absolutely zero chance.

      If you want to win smart, watch how Obama, a freshman Senator, continues to outfox a former President and his now candidate wife.  He is fighting and winning and you cannot even see it!

      Don't underestimate the man's brains. He's way ahead of many a seasoned politician.    

      The most successful war seldom pays for its losses. - Thomas Jefferson

      by Judgment at Nuremberg on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:19:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The American public itself is the greatest (6+ / 0-)

    barrier to universal health care.  They've been trained well: "socialist health care" scares the hell out of them.  The ONLY reason any change to health insurance, not health care, is even possible is because it's killing everybody but Cigna, Big Pharma and Friends.  

    All you want is tax fairness, civil rights, economic justice?  

    And you make fun of Obama for kumbayism?  

    He recognizes that he will face brutal opposition from the wealth that runs this nation and the fools who vote for Wealth because somebody somewhere may have an abortion, or get a free meal, or be denied a gun.  

    There's a reason why neither HRC or BO is proposing universal healthcare. And it ain't because they don't believe it's the solution.    

    Small varmints, if you will.

    by 2lucky on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 10:58:27 PM PDT

    •  New kind of politics (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sara seattle

      It seems to me that practicing a new kind of politics means that you say what you think and what you mean, and hope to be persuasive enough to bring folks to your way of thinking.

      Proposing one thing and believing another isn't going to move things in the right direction.

      Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

      by Dave B on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:04:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bill Moyers had Susan Jacoby on (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kingubu, thisniss, Valhalla

      Friday re her new book (advertised on this site), and she made an interesting point:  That presidents should, above all, be Educators-in-Chief, and that to her argument, this is where Clinton dropped the ball on UHC.  That instead of allowing the insurance companies to play on "socialist fears" with Harry and Louise first, he should have gotten to the public to educate them on why UHC is A Good Thing, standard elsewhere in the industrialized world, and not a door cracking open for Creeping Socialism, but a moral imperative for a civilized country.  Instead, as we know, the Clintons were so secretive about the whole process and the insurance companies cut them off at the pass.

      Please, God, don't let the Democratic party make me vote for some pinhead who believes in the GWOT. God grinned...

      by planetclaire4 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:21:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Universal? or Single-payer? n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

      by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:37:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  His central point is this (10+ / 0-)

    most Americans -- not necessarily their representatives in a gerrymandered Congress, but the actual freakin' people -- are not hardcore partisans.

    And what is it that most real people want from government? Not something philosophically pristine, but one that helps people in ways that government can best help, that protects lives and livelihoods, that upholds civil liberties, that keeps the trains running on time.

    Most Americans are not Grover Norquist "tax nothing" types or theocrats or neocons. They're not opposed to well-constructed social safety nets and well-conceived government programs that address needs in ways that unregulated markets cannot.

    Obama wants to tap that. To get people to see beyond partisan divisions ... not for the sake of compromising with a rabid minority, but to pry folks away from the clutches of that minority to work for a sensible, pragmatic, and -- yes -- progressive set of moves going forward.

    That's what he means by constructing a working majority out of an engaged populace. It's not about compromise per se; it's about reaching beyond the divides that our current patterns of representative government has imposed. It would involve pragmatism. And not all of it will work, and it won't please anyone all the time.

    But that's the goal. I think it beats the alternatives.

    •  This is the most persuasive comment - I have read (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vard, 2lucky, thisniss, spookthesunset

      and done in such an inclusive way - that highlights Obama's positives views.

      Thank you for writing

      "Proud to proclaim: I am a Bleeding Heart Liberal"

      by sara seattle on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:24:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Very important point (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vard, thisniss, spookthesunset

      Obama's message of civility toward Republicans is not really about cozying up to rightwing radical politicians.  It's really about speaking to all those ordinary people who've been duped into believing Republicans are more in line with their values -- and bringing those people back to reality.

      If he can convert even the most moderate 5% of Republicans back into Democrats, that will win us hundreds of lower public offices and thousands of legislative battles.  Can anyone realistically imagine Hillary doing that?

      ---
      "If Obama is the nominee, we are doomed." -Rush Limbaugh
      "Always speak before Barack Obama, not after Barack Obama." -Olbermann

      by Troutnut on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:19:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That civility is something all (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vard, flumptytail

        smart Democrats practice all the time.  We convert people one by one...and by example.  And so does Hillary.  That's how she won in those Republican counties in upstate New York for reelection.

        Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

        by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:43:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Obama and Social Justice (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Katydid, ksh01, thisniss, scardanelli, haruki

    Vard,

    I have always been a big Edwards supporter.  He was my senator when I used to live in NC and I was proud to have voted for him then.  

    But one of the things that has drawn me to Obama is that, like Edwards, Obama has always placed addressing issues of poverty and economic inequity at the center of his adult political life.  Why do you think it was that Obama, right after an impressive student career at Harvard Law went to Chicago's South Side to work as a community organizer and activist...he was working on issues of poverty and social justice.  And while Hillary worked for the Children's Defense Fund after law school, it was for less than a year.  Obama dedicated years of his life to such work before entering public office.  When Hillary was a corporate lawyer, and Edwards was earning millions as a trial lawyer, Obama was working as a civil rights lawyer working on voting rights and housing discrimination cases.  Obama is the only candidate in the campaign who has made our nation's grossly unfair crime laws an issue in the campaign...and that is all about poverty and inequality.

    I think what really separated Edwards and Obama on these issues was a styallistic approach.  Edwards took a more combative tone while Obama seeks to build change through consensus.

    Anyway, the long and the short of it is that if you really want to back a candidate who shares Edwards' interest in social justice and addressing issues of economic dislocation then I think the choice is clear:  Obama.

  •  do you want to live in a state of fear (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    thisniss, haruki

    or be courageous and move forward. I see a vote for Hillary as a vote out of fear. Ready on day one, my husbands administration, she's yet to really articulate a movement forward, but asks us to go back and she'll recreate the Clinton years. I think that's one of the dillemas she faces in her campaign, she's part of what was, we're looking for what we can be, not what we were.

    Having read Obama's two books, his life is one of service, of grass root support, of making a difference from the ground up. Personally, my gut trusts that, more then someone who's wanted to get back in the White House since the day she left it as First Lady!

  •  It's not winning the fight, it's winning the war (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kingubu, haruki, Our Past

    I've heard a lot about how Obama is too bipartisan, that he's too accomodating to republicans to really get things done.
    I know the man's history, and I know how he does things. And I know that rolling over and playing dead isn't his style.
    If you don't believe me, look at his campaign. When people have criticized his positions, instead of waffling, he has stood firm and shouted to the rooftops that it is the right thing to do. (For example, negotiating with our enemies.)
    I understand the desire to have a democratic president who's going to take the fight to our opponents. But the problem becomes, what does that win us in the long term?
    I think we can all agree that after the Clinton years, the republicans got the candidate that they wanted: one that would screw every democratic principle every chance he got.
    So, let's assume Clinton is elected and let's assume that she does what she says and works over republicans for the next eight years.
    What happens next?
    The answer should be painfully apparent. The republicans will gain the majority yet again and yet again we will likely see a republican in the White House who will reverse every ounce of progress from a Hillary administration (as Bush did for the Bill Clinton presidency) and we will all end up in the same boat we are in today.
    Like Iraq, the only way we end this partisan war is to be the ones to end it. WE have to be 'the bigger man' and call a stop to the deeply divided, partisan way of approaching problems.
    The first step is to realize that our activism, though important, is not the answer to every question. Teachers are incredibly important and need to be supported, but teacher's unions don't always exclusively have the best interests of our kids at heart. And really, that's where the focus needs to be.
    Reaching out to republicans isn't the same thing as submitting to them. The people of this country who describe themselves as republicans and conservatives aren't cut from the same cloth as Rove, Cheney, and a majority of our republican politicians.

    There's another reason that Obama's approach is more likely to achieve real, LASTING progress than Hillary's.
    Hillary has a deep distrust of the American citizen. It's an unfortunate fact, but all of her actions, from her health care debacle to the way she has run this campaign, indicate this. It's understandable, her political upbringing was during a time when democrats were a minority of the country.
    But this also means that every fight she takes on, she essentially takes it on alone. Her whole campaign is based on this, that she is tough enough to go it alone and fight the good fight.
    Obama, on the other hand, has an equally deep trust in the essential goodness and intelligence of the American public, as long as they are well informed. His public record reflects a deep desire to provide this information, both in Illinois and in congress. And THIS is his trump card against Hillary, the republicans, congress, the whole nine yards.
    He will take his case to the people, in a way that only he can. You think he campaign speeches are moving? Imagine when he turns every ounce of that rhetorical skill to convincing EVERY American to support his health care plan.
    How many republican congressmen and senators do you see standing up against that wave of support?
    Do you think the speeches will end after inauguration day?

    THIS is the power of Obama's vision. It's about taking the decisions to the people and letting US fight those battles with congress alongside our President, rather than pretending he can do everything himself.

  •  the cultivation is, I think, (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    vard, thisniss, planetclaire4, desertlover

    aimed at building consensus for a progressive agenda and is, in some respects, a matter of style.

    There is a distinct difference between reaching across the aisle to convince and co-opt, for example, and rolling over.  Obama will lose my support if he rolls over.

    I've worked in the fields he worked in while a community activist and as a lawyer activist.  His thoughts and words on social justice seem authentic to me. I don't pretend anyone could get out there and be as left as my work and experience has left me, but there is much good to say about those among us who are able to affect change without rolling in the animosity between factions.

    I don't think anyone should downplay the down ticket aspect of Obama's candidacy. While I agree with much of what you said about Clinton, my take is that they are constitutionally uninterested in growing the party.  Penn's words reflect that and are in direct contrast with Dean's 50 state strategy.  Without that interest and that work, Dems will never be in a position to make or force change in this country.  We'll be stuck with scenarios much like what we've lived through in the past 8 years. Always a bare minority or a majority. Ineffectual.

    And the voters.  Getting that turnout can't hurt us and I truly don't think it will be the same with Clinton on the ticket.  Not only that, even though I know it's a cliche sentiment by now, I really believe the republican and independent Hillary haters will be motivated to turn out in force in the general if she is our nominee (I'd vote for her if she was the nominee). I'm worry that we'll lose and have four more years of this crap.

    You probably know all about this, but look at the numbers of people that are turning out for Dem primaries and caucuses all over this country. Compare them to 2000.  Dem turnout has, almost to a state, exceeded that of even republican turnout in the 2000 election. And 2000 republican turnout far exceeded dem turnout in that election cycle.

    I get what you're saying, but I don't think there's anything to fear about this mass movement.  I think he will be as good as we want him to be.

    NetrootNews coming soon!

    by ksh01 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 11:17:54 PM PDT

  •  riding a wave (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    planetclaire4, Valhalla

    The thing about waves is that they only drive you forward when you go in the direction they want you to go.  If you veer from that course, they tend to swamp you and drag you under.  I believe that if Obama is elected on the back of a popular movement, then he will have to provide populist policies needed and demanded by the people.  To do otherwise would be to slit his own throat politically.

    Like you I'm a die hard Edwards supporter, and like you I have miss-givings about the "kumbaya" factor in Obama's rhetoric.  I decided to support Obama when I recognized that while his rhetoric may not contain the fiery populism I loved in John's, his campaign is populist in its strategy.   Obama's campaign strategy seems to be descended from his experience as a community organizer.  He's built his electoral successes by inspiring people to act and then organizing them effectively.

    Much has been made about the Obama "movement".  Some have tried to dismiss it as a cult of personality; others have described it as fascistic.  The reality, however, is neither so malignant nor so simple.  This movement was produced by the intersection of two elements.  The first is the very really hunger among the American masses for substantive change in Washington.  And the second is the ability of the Obama campaign to organize on the grassroots level.  

    When combined these two factors have allowed Obama to focus the people's desire for change through his campaign.  This lensing has had two effects.  First, it has fueled Obama's wins.  Second, it has taken his campaign away from him.  This is why the signs at his rallies now say "Change we can believe in" rather than just "Obama for President".  

    To a populist this is hugely significant.  You see, every politician is beholden to someone or something.  Every politician owes somebody.  And when a politician turns his campaign into the focus of and vehicle for a popul