Daily Kos

Cautionary words from Barack for DKos: "Tone, Truth, and the Democratic Party"

Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:41:54 AM PDT

In one of only two Diaries, Tone, Truth, and the Democratic Party, that Senator Obama addressed to the DKos community, he wrote some wise words in 2005 that the many Obama supporters hurling attacks and hate (at the Clinton family and their supporters) should now heed. Disrespect and hate has infected this site and is destroying this community regardless of whether the owner, Kos, has the wisdom, leadership and character to address the problem. It has gotten way past midnight and it goes on to this very minute.

I, for one, am disgusted and close to leaving this community. If the Obama supporters are preparing fresh, self-righteous "Dkos love it or leave it"  comments for me right now without knowing my politics or character, they should first read the words of Senator Obama. His words should cause some self examination. Please, then go back and reread your diaries and comments and see how they support the spirit of what he wants for our nation. That is what a real supporter would do.....

I read with interest your recent discussion regarding my comments on the floor(1, 2, 3) during the debate on John Roberts' nomination.  I don't get a chance to follow blog traffic as regularly as I would like, and rarely get the time to participate in the discussions.  I thought this might be a good opportunity to offer some thoughts about not only judicial confirmations, but how to bring about meaningful change in this country.

Maybe some of you believe I could have made my general point more artfully, but it's precisely because many of these groups are friends and supporters that I felt it necessary to speak my mind.

There is one way, over the long haul, to guarantee the appointment of judges that are sensitive to issues of social justice, and that is to win the right to appoint them by recapturing the presidency and the Senate.  And I don't believe we get there by vilifying good allies, with a lifetime record of battling for progressive causes, over one vote or position.    I am convinced that, our mutual frustrations and strongly-held beliefs notwithstanding, the strategy driving much of Democratic advocacy, and the tone of much of our rhetoric, is an impediment to creating a workable progressive majority in this country.  

According to the storyline that drives many advocacy groups and Democratic activists - a storyline often reflected in comments on this blog - we are up against a sharply partisan, radically conservative, take-no-prisoners Republican party.  They have beaten us twice by energizing their base with red meat rhetoric and single-minded devotion and discipline to their agenda.  In order to beat them, it is necessary for Democrats to get some backbone, give as good as they get, brook no compromise, drive out Democrats who are interested in "appeasing" the right wing, and enforce a more clearly progressive agenda.  The country, finally knowing what we stand for and seeing a sharp contrast, will rally to our side and thereby usher in a new progressive era.

I think this perspective misreads the American people.  From traveling throughout Illinois and more recently around the country, I can tell you that Americans are suspicious of labels and suspicious of jargon.  They don't think George Bush is mean-spirited or prejudiced, but have become aware that his administration is irresponsible and often incompetent.  They don't think that corporations are inherently evil (a lot of them work in corporations), but they recognize that big business, unchecked, can fix the game to the detriment of working people and small entrepreneurs.  They don't think America is an imperialist brute, but are angry that the case to invade Iraq was exaggerated, are worried that we have unnecessarily alienated existing and potential allies around the world, and are ashamed by events like those at Abu Ghraib which violate our ideals as a country.

It's this non-ideological lens through which much of the country viewed Judge Roberts' confirmation hearings.   A majority of folks, including a number of Democrats and Independents, don't think that John Roberts is an ideologue bent on overturning every vestige of civil rights and civil liberties protections in our possession.  Instead, they have good reason to believe he is a conservative judge who is (like it or not) within the mainstream of American jurisprudence, a judge appointed by a conservative president who could have done much worse (and probably, I fear, may do worse with the next nominee).  While they hope Roberts doesn't swing the court too sharply to the right, a majority of Americans think that the President should probably get the benefit of the doubt on a clearly qualified nominee.

A plausible argument can be made that too much is at stake here and now, in terms of privacy issues, civil rights, and civil liberties, to give John Roberts the benefit of the doubt.  That certainly was the operating assumption of the advocacy groups involved in the nomination battle.  

I shared enough of these concerns that I voted against Roberts on the floor this morning.  But short of mounting an all-out filibuster -- a quixotic fight I would not have supported; a fight I believe Democrats would have lost both in the Senate and in the court of public opinion; a fight that would have been difficult for Democratic senators defending seats in states like North Dakota and Nebraska that are essential for Democrats to hold if we hope to recapture the majority; and a fight that would have effectively signaled an unwillingness on the part of Democrats to confirm any Bush nominee, an unwillingness which I believe would have set a dangerous precedent for future administrations -- blocking Roberts was not a realistic option.

In such circumstances, attacks on Pat Leahy, Russ Feingold and the other Democrats who, after careful consideration, voted for Roberts make no sense.  Russ Feingold, the only Democrat to vote not only against war in Iraq but also against the Patriot Act, doesn't become complicit in the erosion of civil liberties simply because he chooses to abide by a deeply held and legitimate view that a President, having won a popular election, is entitled to some benefit of the doubt when it comes to judicial appointments. Like it or not, that view has pretty strong support in the Constitution's design.

The same principle holds with respect to issues other than judicial nominations.  My colleague from Illinois, Dick Durbin, spoke out forcefully - and voted against - the Iraqi invasion.  He isn't somehow transformed into a "war supporter" - as I've heard some anti-war activists suggest - just because he hasn't called for an immediate withdrawal of American troops. He may be simply trying to figure out, as I am, how to ensure that U.S. troop withdrawals occur in such a way that we avoid all-out Iraqi civil war, chaos in the Middle East, and much more costly and deadly interventions down the road.  A pro-choice Democrat doesn't become anti-choice because he or she isn't absolutely convinced that a twelve-year-old girl should be able to get an operation without a parent being notified.  A pro-civil rights Democrat doesn't become complicit in an anti-civil rights agenda because he or she questions the efficacy of certain affirmative action programs. And a pro-union Democrat doesn't become anti-union if he or she makes a determination that on balance, CAFTA will help American workers more than it will harm them.

Or to make the point differently: How can we ask Republican senators to resist pressure from their right wing and vote against flawed appointees like John Bolton, if we engage in similar rhetoric against Democrats who dissent from our own party line?  How can we expect Republican moderates who are concerned about the nation's fiscal meltdown to ignore Grover Norquist's threats if we make similar threats to those who buck our party orthodoxy?    

I am not drawing a facile equivalence here between progressive advocacy groups and right-wing advocacy groups.  The consequences of their ideas are vastly different. Fighting on behalf of the poor and the vulnerable is not the same as fighting for homophobia and Halliburton.  But to the degree that we brook no dissent within the Democratic Party, and demand fealty to the one, "true" progressive vision for the country, we risk the very thoughtfulness and openness to new ideas that are required to move this country forward.  When we lash out at those who share our fundamental values because they have not met the criteria of every single item on our progressive "checklist," then we are essentially preventing them from thinking in new ways about problems.  We are tying them up in a straightjacket and forcing them into a conversation only with the converted.

Beyond that, by applying such tests, we are hamstringing our ability to build a majority.  We won't be able to transform the country with such a polarized electorate.  Because the truth of the matter is this: Most of the issues this country faces are hard.  They require tough choices, and they require sacrifice.  The Bush Administration and the Republican Congress may have made the problems worse, but they won't go away after President Bush is gone.  Unless we are open to new ideas, and not just new packaging, we won't change enough hearts and minds to initiate a serious energy or fiscal policy that calls for serious sacrifice.  We won't have the popular support to craft a foreign policy that meets the challenges of globalization or terrorism while avoiding isolationism and protecting civil liberties.  We certainly won't have a mandate to overhaul a health care policy that overcomes all the entrenched interests that are the legacy of a jerry-rigged health care system.  And we won't have the broad political support, or the effective strategies, required to lift large numbers of our fellow citizens out of numbing poverty.

The bottom line is that our job is harder than the conservatives' job.  After all, it's easy to articulate a belligerent foreign policy based solely on unilateral military action, a policy that sounds tough and acts dumb; it's harder to craft a foreign policy that's tough and smart.  It's easy to dismantle government safety nets; it's harder to transform those safety nets so that they work for people and can be paid for.  It's easy to embrace a theological absolutism; it's harder to find the right balance between the legitimate role of faith in our lives and the demands of our civic religion.  But that's our job.  And I firmly believe that whenever we exaggerate or demonize, or oversimplify or overstate our case, we lose.  Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose.  A polarized electorate that is turned off of politics, and easily dismisses both parties because of the nasty, dishonest tone of the debate, works perfectly well for those who seek to chip away at the very idea of government because, in the end, a cynical electorate is a selfish electorate.

Let me be clear: I am not arguing that the Democrats should trim their sails and be more "centrist."  In fact, I think the whole "centrist" versus "liberal" labels that continue to characterize the debate within the Democratic Party misses the mark.  Too often, the "centrist" label seems to mean compromise for compromise sake, whereas on issues like health care, energy, education and tackling poverty, I don't think Democrats have been bold enough.  But I do think that being bold involves more than just putting more money into existing programs and will instead require us to admit that some existing programs and policies don't work very well.  And further, it will require us to innovate and experiment with whatever ideas hold promise (including market- or faith-based ideas that originate from Republicans).

Our goal should be to stick to our guns on those core values that make this country great, show a spirit of flexibility and sustained attention that can achieve those goals, and try to create the sort of serious, adult, consensus around our problems that can admit Democrats, Republicans and Independents of good will.  This is more than just a matter of "framing," although clarity of language, thought, and heart are required.  It's a matter of actually having faith in the American people's ability to hear a real and authentic debate about the issues that matter.

Finally, I am not arguing that we "unilaterally disarm" in the face of Republican attacks, or bite our tongue when this Administration screws up.  Whenever they are wrong, inept, or dishonest, we should say so clearly and repeatedly; and whenever they gear up their attack machine, we should respond quickly and forcefully.  I am suggesting that the tone we take matters, and that truth, as best we know it, be the hallmark of our response.  

My dear friend Paul Simon used to consistently win the votes of much more conservative voters in Southern Illinois because he had mastered the art of "disagreeing without being disagreeable," and they trusted him to tell the truth.  Similarly, one of Paul Wellstone's greatest strengths was his ability to deliver a scathing rebuke of the Republicans without ever losing his sense of humor and affability.  In fact, I would argue that the most powerful voices of change in the country, from Lincoln to King, have been those who can speak with the utmost conviction about the great issues of the day without ever belittling those who opposed them, and without denying the limits of their own perspectives.

In that spirit, let me end by saying I don't pretend to have all the answers to the challenges we face, and I look forward to periodic conversations with all of you in the months and years to come.  I trust that you will continue to let me and other Democrats know when you believe we are screwing up. And I, in turn, will always try and show you the respect and candor one owes his friends and allies.

Tags: President, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, 2008 Elections, Primaries, Daily Kos, 2008, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 476 comments

  •  Sorry you're not feeling the love (21+ / 0-)

    But there is going to be blind enthusiasm on this site during the primary no matter what we ask or hope for. At this point it's like two rival sports teams, just try going on an ESPN messege board and you'll see what it's like. So, while I do sympathize, get some tough skin because that's just the way it is.

    p.s. you might want to just use a small excerpt instead of pasting the whole piece :)

    •  Nope - the abuse and tortured thinking is not (143+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jd in nyc, Pacific John, Radiowalla, hester, lrhoke, gracchus, Rolfyboy6, catfish, vancookie, BigOkie, emal, sara seattle, nussbaumski, cotterperson, meg, lns1122, 2lucky, Matilda, linc, geordie, loudGizmo, DrKate, Kevvboy, Rupert, PBnJ, mkfarkus, nabwilson, javelina, Larry Bailey, high uintas, BrianSeattle, DemocracyLover in NYC, Rainman, jhpdb, nancelot, roseeriter, hairspray, Catte Nappe, tabbycat in tenn, lcrp, zett, bablhous, Krum, Timroff, iliketodrum, Ed J, Gowrie Gal, kbman, Bluesee, Owl of Minerva, Gabriele Droz, JanetT in MD, Militarytracy, Alice Venturi, CO, scottso, Turkana, kldave, Burned, another American, Eric K, steve davis, algebrateacher, The Raven, kitchen table activist, oibme, The Fat Lady Sings, Unduna, doe, empathy, tigerdog, Asinus Asinum Fricat, Just enough, dannyinla, BachFan, vigilant meerkat, VoicelessInDC, GinaNY, Gorette, belly, johnsonwax, mango, tbetz, Sam Wise Gingy, Rachel in Vista, bunk, Andy30tx, MBNYC, ProgressForGoodGov, Statusquomustgo, kurious, Land Use Watch, RickBoston, The House, ibonewits, donnamarie, blue armadillo, Kathie McCrimmon, DocbytheBay, yoduuuh do or do not, Mary Mike, World Patriot, Bridge Master, Rumarhazzit, dgone36, Chicagoa, doubting thomas, MT Clarity, sander60tx, zerone, Abby Kelleyite, pepper mint, CDH in Brooklyn, Indecent, lineatus, Lujane, geomoo, devil, mofembot, PJ Jefferson, mommaK, bubbalie 517, Abra Crabcakeya, Dewey Kneadleeders, Wordsinthewind, ryangoesboom, cameoanne, NetRootsDaily, rubyclaire, Psychotronicman, Zach Alexander, gdwtch52, Moonwood, CanyonWren, pvlb, Partisan Progressive, nwgates, katz5, entropiccanuck, Daily Activist, spookthesunset, Shep001, Knight Rider

      acceptable. It makes a mockery of progressive principles and even what Barack stands for.


      "And we are here as on a darkling plain Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night." Matthew Arnold

      by Cantinflas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:48:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You can't tell crazy people to stop being crazy (25+ / 0-)

        When it comes down to it, it's individuals who are being abusive and mean, and it happens both from Obama supporters and Clinton supporters, Democrats and Republicans. You can't put up a diary asking people to stop and expect it to happen. There are irrational people on DailyKos and MYDD. And no matter how rational are argument to them to be reasonable, they ignore us because they are, well, irrational :) If you really cared about what you are talking about, you would stop the Obama association, since it happens the same for Clinton supporters.

        •  Yeah you can - that is what banning and hiding (62+ / 0-)

          were invented to control on this site.  Of course, once all the crazy people start to out number the sane people that system goes to hell.  Which for the record is where we officially are now.  I've heard tales of the devolution of DemocraticUnderground that suggest we are on a similar downward trajectory at this point.

          •  well put! (21+ / 0-)


            "And we are here as on a darkling plain Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night." Matthew Arnold

            by Cantinflas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:11:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks for your effort (27+ / 0-)

              The point you make is an important one and much appreciated in these dark days of Daily Obama.  I hope it has the desired effect, but remain doubtful. I've even reached to point of doubting that dKos will ever return to anything resembling what we used to view as "normal" after the primaries are over.  There are deep roots to this problem, going far beyond the reach of any mere lone kossack.  It will take the entire community to rally for and demand the necessary changes.

              Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

              by vigilant meerkat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 09:11:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, afraid you're right -- deep roots, such as.. (12+ / 0-)

                ...the possible inability of some of us here to forget how many times our most innocuous questions or comments about group behavior and thinking have been met with a hail of invective such as "moral idiot", "dick", "asshole", and even worse.  And we are their fellow Democrats.

                In what may be the very worst of non-progressive talk here, there is currently a diary talking about an HRC "head fake" in Wisconsin that refers to the working poor in our country as "white trash".

                If it wasn't for C&J and an occasional thoughtful diary, there'd be no reason to remain here.

                •  Anyone who has ever been through (10+ / 0-)

                  a bitter and acrimonious divorce knows exactly how deep the roots go.  That is what this reminds me of.  The division being created (and in some instances even encouraged) is not temporary in nature; it is real, it is deep, and it is irreparable.  It's the Humpty Dumpty story, and we all know how that turned out.  The Daily Kos that we all knew and loved is no more, although as you point out, some tattered remnants struggle to survive.

                  Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

                  by vigilant meerkat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 09:46:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This train of thought (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    jd in nyc, lcrp, rubine

                    doesn't appear to jive with what I'm reading.  I'm not old school DailyKos and can't speak much about the 2004 primaries (only a brief visitor), nor can I speak for the devolution of DU, but this Diary format is being properly managed and I believe overall the free marketplace of ideas rules with only moderate constraints to prevent severe breaches of the peace and decency.

                    What seems to be the source of the issue is that in this Primary there was a real horse race with a clear favorite.  Those who placed their bets on the favorite dod so many many years in the past and the chess game started as early as 2000-2002.  This is a 4th quarter comeback like never seen before (assuming, if you will, that Iowa kicks off the 4th quarter.)

                    Perhaps Barack draws more and more newbies.  Perhaps such diarists and commentators require disciple (I know I did) and certainly regular participation helps develop voice.

                    As a once, newbie, and now "elder" member of the techno scene I have seen the same thing.  The scene was robust and amazing 1998-2003  (and I have heard had a similar peak 1990-1994, in between going dormant as new styles emerge.  These scene appeared to be dying in 2004-2006 only to re-emerge inlate 2007 with electro finally maturing and now splashing the synth across all techno and mainstream.

                    In other words. Daily Kos is not ever going to remain the same... It will twist, turn stumle around and be reborn... just like our constitution.  Kudos to Kos and the staff for maintaining integrity... it's OK if people are cursing... that has never been an issue with adults during "free swim"

                    •  It isn't cursing I object to, it's lying about a (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Larry Bailey

                      candidate, misrepresentation, distortion of fact and name calling that I object to-- regardless of which camp it comes from. This is not a ball game, it's deadly serious and there are millions of lives in the balance. Those who are so sure of their superior integrity that they declare with smug self righteousness they will not vote at all or will vote for McCain if their candidate is not chosen, demonstrate (in my opinion) a callous disregard for the future of democracy in America, for the Constitution, for the lives and livelihoods and futures of millions of people around the world. All that matters to them is that they are right (and morally superior), and everyone else is wrong.

                      Argue until the cows come home, but do it with facts and civility. The tone must change, or we risk all.

                      We find that after years of struggle we do not take a journey, but rather a journey takes us. John Steinbeck, Travels with Charley

                      by tigerdog on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:59:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  hey meerkat (3+ / 0-)

                    avoid the candidate diaries and you'll find the place alive, well and intact.
                    I've found limiting myself to one or two candidate diaries a day is plenty and instead spend time reading the rescue list and other favorites.
                    Check my sig line, it's not just an idea, it's truth.

                    The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda

                    by FireCrow on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:32:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah well it seems stupid to be on a leading (3+ / 0-)

                      Democratic political blog and be forced to avoid talking about the most important primary race in nearly half a century.

                      •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Larry Bailey, inclusiveheart

                        I totally agree and that is why I have found other blogs on which to have that discussion.  They may not be in the same league that dKos has dominated over the past couple of years, but all good things come to an end, and as you point out, it's no longer possible to have a civil debate here.

                        Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

                        by vigilant meerkat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:09:41 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  what I am saying (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Larry Bailey, DeannaHawk

                        is for those who seem to be so upset by all the hostility around here, to realize they have a choice in the matter. I don't see DKos as broken, fucked up or non repairable, I see it as a bunch of really passionate people frustrated beyond description by seven years of neocon rule, who are desperate for change and convinced their candidate is best suited to bring that about. I just choose not to engage the most unpleasant of the bunch, except for the occasion " oh go fuck yourself"  to the the worst offenders. :)

                        The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda

                        by FireCrow on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:14:13 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well, I can take and throw a good hard (3+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          meg, Larry Bailey, FireCrow

                          punch in a political debate.  I am not afraid of a good fair fight and I am pretty damn sure VM isn't either, but what I don't like that is happening is the fabricated bullshit - primarily because dealing in lies and inuendo really pisses me off - and secondarily because it is embarassing to see the discourse on this blog turn into something that might be considered superior to the morAnic discussions one might find on "Fox and Friends" about our candidates only because the people doing the discussing are theoretically Democrats.

                    •  Well, Firecrow (4+ / 0-)

                      I'm glad to hear that you have found a way to cope.  My intention was not to imply that I haven't been able to do that myself, because I have.  It's something I've been doing all of my life.  This is a blog; it is not my life.  Nor is it the source of my happiness.  I generally never confuse the two.

                      Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

                      by vigilant meerkat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:03:48 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I believe there are forces at work, meerkat, (21+ / 0-)

                way beyond ordinary good-willed members of the community getting acrimonious with other ordinary good-willed members of the community because they are both passionate about their respective candidates.

                Perhaps my tin foil hat is on a little tight, but I think it's probable that there are agent provocateurs who are hostile to the whole concept of Daily Kos even existing at work here, deliberately trying to ruin this powerful forum, this loud Democratic voice that has been helping loosen their grip on power.

                I've decided I'm not going to make a decision about the overall character of Daily Kos until after we've won the Presidency, because at that point I know the ordinary good-willed members of the community will settle down, and any agents provocateurs will slink back under their rocks in defeat.

                Only then will we be able to discern what the true "new" character of Daily Kos will be.  Me, I hope it becomes a vehicle for holding President Obama's feet to the fire to make sure he acts as progressive as his supporters promise he is; and continuing to elect new and better Democrats to a Democratic House and Senate.  

                And if that ain't what Daily Kos is, after all this is said and done, then I'll be off.  But not before.  I hope you stick around.

                •  I agree. (7+ / 0-)

                  Some of the commenting goes beyond just being for "my guy (or gal)";  there is a persistence that no dialog seems to reach.  I've been keeping a list of my likely offenders.  It would be interesting to see other Kossacks' lists and compare notes.

                  Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world. Not McCain

                  by kafkananda on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:41:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Just check the ID#s (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    dfarrah, doubting thomas, geomoo

                    If it is higher than 125,000, you can generally predict the diary...Maybe we vote them off the island after November...Because you know, it is quite weird that all these Obama cult members decided to take this place over after many of us here weren't all that pleased with Obama, symbolized by his diary posted above...Why exactly do they expect us to worship this man with the fervor they do, when the guy came on here and told us to watch what we say and how we said it? For them, I guess history started in December 2007....Well, let us hope things shift back in 2009...it would be a shame if this place got taken over by the Obama cult...

                    Wars not make one great. - Yoda

                    by Volvo Liberal on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:58:15 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Volvo, it's like every time i bump into you... (0+ / 0-)

                      you're bitching about new ID#'s.  Do you ever get off the soap box?

                    •  Surprised by your comment (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Duckman GR, tigerdog

                      I'm confused in that I generally agree with you on these issues and with your point here about new members.  Yet to me, these words of Obama seem to me to address precisely and elegantly the very problem under discussion.  My respect for him has gone up after reading this.  What am I missing?

                      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

                      by geomoo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:04:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The context. (3+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        dfarrah, meg, geomoo

                        Obama came here to tell us to sit down and shut up when we were starting to gear up for a very successful march to victory in the 2006 election.  Among other things, Congress had passed the Energy Bill, confirmed those scurrilous Supreme Court Justices without a fight, the Iraq war was being praised and supported even by Obama himself and it seems that our powder was so dry that it was constantly blowing away in the wind rather than being used ever at all...  It was a very dark time for Democrats and the leadership frankly sucked.  People started yelling and I believe Obama was sent in like a sacrificial lamb to "talk some sense" into us.  Honestly, if people had listened to him then, I doubt we would have ever gained the ground we did in 2006.

                        •  Thanks. (2+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          meg, inclusiveheart

                          I was here after that but in time to recognize the forces you describe.  It seems like a long time ago.  The things you mention make the unquestioned support of Obama, and even more the unrestrained vilification of Hillary, seem even more out of touch with our earlier mutual focus on progressive goals.

                          The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

                          by geomoo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:18:55 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  That is exactly why I don't get the hero worship (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            geomoo

                            part - the "good candidate" part I get - hero worship not so much.

                            •  The cult of personality is alive and well here (0+ / 0-)

                              Some unfortunate tendencies in our culture which have enabled the lying, media-manipulating GOP to create the mess we're, are now on display here.  Particularly

                              1. the unthinkingly polarized "dogfight," winning-is-everything approach and

                              2)the focus on personality to the exclusion of policy.

                              My primary concern:  who has the best chance first, of winning, and second of making headway undoing some of the damage.

                              The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

                              by geomoo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:37:01 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                    •  Oops!! (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      geomoo

                      Sorry about that!  I hit it too quick.  What I meant to say to Volvo LIberal was you'd better ck my ID cuz I've been here a long, long while and ain't nobody votin me off anywhere.  I DECIDE WHEN AND WHERE I WANT TO GO!!!  In my time here I've ready many many wonderful diaries by you.  Really really good.  I find it hard to believe that we can't come to some kind of "agree to disagree" sort of thing about this.  I try really hard to give everyone here the benefit of the doubt and unless they just get too wacky or obscene then I feel I can still find reason with them.  I know I can with you cuz after all the Volvo is one of my favorite cars!!  Wicked safe, good gas mileage, and they look good too.  Can't beat that for a combination.

                      Best wishes!!

                    •  While I agree in principal, Volvo (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      tigerdog

                      I have encountered some great newbies, thoughtful people who have brought good things to the table. Unfortunatly, what you say is true for the majority. I read some crazy ass post and check the UID, yep there it is, no civility whatsoever.

                      There still are two Americas. I live in the other one. John McSame wants me to stay there.

                      by high uintas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:19:25 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Silly me (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      ChakraTease

                      I thought this site was about bringing new people into the democratic process as much as anything.

                      I find it interesting that most of the attacks from people who support Hillary tend to be against Obama's supporters, where as most Obama supporters tend to attack Hillary herself or her policies and campaign staff, but not those who support her.

                      I do see a decrease in civility on this site, I've been a lurker since 03, but only signed up for an account recently, but I don't think you can say it is because of new people joining the discussion. Mostly it is caused by the high emotions brought on by years of watching our country decompose which makes each person here want to do whatever they can to change things. Naturally there will be some heated disagreement about who can better do that.

                      I don't see anything wrong with calling out the candidates when we disagree with their positions, policies or statements. I do believe we need to stop attacking each other, as that does go against what I feel is the character of this site.

                      •  Interesting, I never said I supported HRC, did I? (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        dfarrah

                        Did you see anything that said I supported Hillary Clinton? Where in the message above did I say that? You see, that is my point...Simplistic, retrograde, zero-sum thinking: If you criticize Obama, you are for Hillary. That is my whole problem with this place, and I thank you for proving my point...I had problems with Obama that started long before he became a candidate....I don't like to be lectured to about civility and needing to rise above rhetoric, etc...I didn't like Obama's airy rhetoric when he just arrived on the scene. You get it? My post above was not pro-Hillary.

                        Wars not make one great. - Yoda

                        by Volvo Liberal on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:53:38 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I never said you supported Hillary either (0+ / 0-)

                          My point was that you are attacking the new people coming to this site, and I don't think that is fair or wise.

                          The rest of my comment was more a general statement in line with this diary and not specifically targeted at you or anyone else.

                          I do have to add that I read more comments in this diary and do see Obama supporters attacking Hillary supporters as well, and that bothers me just as much.

                •  The "forces at work" (10+ / 0-)

                  to which you refer, if they have indeed infilitrated this site, have succeeded to the extent that they have tainted so much of the discourse in such a subtle and undermining manner that it is unlikely we will be able to recognize ourselves when all is said and done.  So my hopes are not as high as yours.

                  Nor am I as confident as you that we (the Dems) will win the election.  The division being created and established among the Dems works in favor of the forces to which you allude.  I don't see how it can work in favor of the Dems.  We are weakened by it, to the point that we will not be able to act in solidarity to recognize or ward off further incursions into our ranks.  Trust lost is generally trust gone forever.  

                  Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

                  by vigilant meerkat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:42:54 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  as somebody who runs a of his own (5+ / 0-)

                    what you are seeing is an influx of new users.  These new users are not familiar with all the rules and games of a political forum.  Worse, while they are probably familiar with other kinds of forums, they are all into the political game for the first time, hyped up on Obama juice, and wound up here because most other forums manage political debate at a third grade level.  Tech talk, iPods, Linux and other topics dont trigger emotional reactions like politics do.  Politics, at the heart, is emotional.

                    So no, DailyKos will not be the same after the primaries as the userbase is growing.  But wait it out, go for a vacation or something... this is just noise as everybody figures out WTF.  Once Texas and Ohio are over and we get a clear picture, things will settle in... course it could still be close and chaos reigns until Denver.

                    But I agree with the original point of the post.  Hate, dissing Hillary (she could never have planed this kind of thing happening), dissing evil republicans, or dissing in general gets us nowhere.

                    •  Sorry, I disagree (3+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      jd in nyc, The House, spookthesunset

                      But then, I have never frequented the kind of sites to which you refer, and if that is where we are headed here, I will find other more adult and literate blogs on which to post.  You know, something above "debate at a third grade level."

                      Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

                      by vigilant meerkat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:39:55 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Good luck with that (4+ / 0-)

                        All forums at times degrade to a third grade level.  .  Politics are the hardest kind of forum to have on the internet because of how emotional and often irrational the arguments get.  It takes a very special skill, and a very well tuned site to make it happen in any kind of civilized manner.  You have chosen wisely picking dailykos for politics and I doubt you'll find an alternative.  I've searched before landing here.. trust me :-)

                        So, I understand your concern, but coming form somebody whos "been there" on other forums (mainly tech), just trust me that what you see in front of you is an influx of new people.  And trust me, I know how it frustrates the "old timers" who have been on the forum forever.

                        •  No need to conern yourself, truly (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          spookthesunset

                          I have already found a number of sites that are exactly the type I have described. They're definitely operating above a third grade level and provide a forum for intelligent discourse of the sort I appreciate and enjoy.

                          If dKos is not on the wane as a powerful voice for the Democratic party, as I suspect it might be, then I may choose to spend more time here after the primaries are over.  If it is all Obama all the time, I won't be around much.  It's too boring and repetitive.  I am not a great fan of echo chambers and lockstep thinking.

                          Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

                          by vigilant meerkat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:42:45 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Two forces at play (7+ / 0-)

                  I have the same paranoid thought.  When responses to comments are so instantaneous, unreasoning, and personally insulting as to invite no further productive interaction, I begin to wonder if those who hate democracy and open discourse are not throwing their wrenches around our terrific site.

                  Whether or not that is so, I am quite certain that there is another force at play.  I don't know the etiquette of quoting from one's own diary, but here goes anyway. (I admit to caring less and less about etiquette here.  So many current interactions around here foster the feeling "Screw you all."  Just saying it's a tendency--I have not yet gone down that dark road.)

                  I believe we greatly underestimate the psychological, emotional, and spiritual damage of the last seven years.  Most of us are not living in a war zone, no, so most of us who have not been in Afghanistan or Iraq have not suffered direct physical abuse at the hands of the Bush regime.  But we are like the sibling who has witnessed abuse first-hand.  In important ways the scars are as deep.  And a lot of us feel an excruciating responsibility for what has been done in our names.  We feel powerless as we see all our efforts at stopping the insanity come to naught.  We feel betrayed by those elected representatives who have failed to stand up for us and for our beloved country.  We have been crazed by a dominant worldview in which blatant lies strut and smirk while simple truths are shouted from the margins, acknowledged only by a few.  These realities have wrought a change in our emotional and rational faculties.  Like the frog in the cooking pot, we fail to notice clearly the detrimental workings of our poisonous environment.

                  Here are a few of my decidedly unprofessional notions of how we have been affected:

                    1.  Our thinking is more likely to be black and white.  We are less willing to allow uncertainties and compromises into our worldview.

                    2.  Our fuses are much shorter.  Perennial dispowerment has disposed us to believe that extreme reaction offers our only hope of being heard.

                    3.  We are more distrustful of the motives of others.  We have come to see increasingly threatening enemies in more and more guises.  Living in a culture of fear, and in a culture aggressively antagonistic to our sensiblities, has damaged our sense of community.

                    4.  We are less inclined to express ourselves with gentleness or good humor.  For one thing, the stakes just seem too high.  For another, we feel we must scream if we are to be heard at all.

                  These four are only my stab at a kind of thinking.  If you find value in it, perhaps you can refine this list with more insight than I have.

                  The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

                  by geomoo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:01:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Great post, geomoo! (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    dharmafarmer, doubting thomas, geomoo

                    I've been thinking along those lines myself. We all are suffering from PBSD (post Bush stress disorder). I think we underestimate how profoundly he and his enablers have changed the way that we communicate.

                    Think Imus, Tweety, Shuster, fairly mainstream talkers who decided that they could wander into shock jock talk and get away with it. And they did for a while, Imus and Tweety at least. Shuster's comment was an aberation from his usual commentary.

                    We have taken to screaming at each other. I have a mouth like a sailor, a MSOC mouth, and I've stopped throwing most of my more gutter talk around because I don't feel comfortable doing that here anymore. That plays into your comment about not trusting, sometimes a joke is just a joke, but not anymore.

                    I just want to spray Calm Down on the entire site and don't want to contribute to the fight.

                    There still are two Americas. I live in the other one. John McSame wants me to stay there.

                    by high uintas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:34:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Thanks, high uintas (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      high uintas

                      I will take your self-restraint as example for my own behavior here, sad as it is to do so, given the earlier fun in making extreme comments for the sake of humor.

                      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

                      by geomoo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:50:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  geomoo, how'd you get inside my brain? (0+ / 0-)

                    Excellent post.

                    Kucinich did NOT bankrupt Cleveland. Feingold didn't vote to impeach Clinton, either.

                    by zett on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:39:04 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Very well put! Rec'd gladly. n/t (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  high uintas

                  I'm sorry Bruce... these boys get that syrup in 'em, they get a little antsy in the pantsy. -Capt. John O'Hagen (Super Troopers)

                  by The House on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:17:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, I get it. (0+ / 0-)

            Everyone's crazy but you and me and lately I'm not too sure about you.  Something like that?  ;)

            -7.50, -7.74 Republicans = Borrow and Squander

            by GMFORD on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:27:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No not really. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              GMFORD

              Again, the banning and hide functions on this site were created as a mechanism for the community to combat disruptive and destructive participants.  That works fine until a majority of users participating support disruptive and destructive behavior.  Saying that you can't tell people not to be crazy is a dodge in a self-moderating community setting.  It is your responsibility as a member to try to uphold the overall site standards if you want the site to be productive.  I think fewer and fewer people participating here could give a damn about the Democratic Party for instance.  People frequently complain that the Clintons throw the party under the bus, but plenty of those same people would throw it under in a heart beat for Obama.  That is not what some of us here signed up for.  If I wanted to participate in a campaign blog, I would sign up for the campaign's blog - not a site to elect Democrats and advance grassroots Democratic objectives.

              •  You think this is bad? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                inclusiveheart

                You should see the comments section at Huffington Post.  I can't even stand to read them anymore they are so bad.

                In fact, DKos and MyDD have the most civil comments that I've come across lately.  DKos is slight better even than TPMMuckraker which lets a real troll slip through now and then.

                Three cheers for the Hide function we have here.

                -7.50, -7.74 Republicans = Borrow and Squander

                by GMFORD on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:36:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Forcefully disagree. (25+ / 0-)

          These comments from Obama are not just directed at us.  This is what he is asking the nation to do as a whole.  This is what our new politics demand from us to move forward and make the real progress we seek.

          Too much is at stake.  Divided we shall not stand.  

          McCain: Without Issues, Without Vision, Without Integrity. --- or Obama: With Truth, With Kindness, With Endurance.

          by CupofTea on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:34:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  no difference of opinion but the whole nation (7+ / 0-)

            doesn't read here...

            "You needed a vehicle. The vehicle was W.M.D" Paul Wolfowitz

            by Just enough on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:38:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Truth out (13+ / 0-)

            I've found that if you keep your head and just respond with the truth, the rancor eventually subsides and is replaced with knowledge.

            Those who will listen, will.  Those who will not, will not.  It's pretty simple.  Don't let it get to you.

            It used to be especially tough to come here when it felt like all I ever did was defend Obama.  It is tiring and frustrating.  But, I'd sigh, dive into the Kos mud pit, remain patient, and make my points.  And add more people to the obama column.  Some new people really do come here looking for information and not a fight.  Those are the people you engage.  

            One more thing.  Remember how people against the war were called "unpatriotic?"  That would mean that over half the country was unpatriotic!  LOL at those tactics!

            And now over half the Democratic population in the country is a cult!?!  LOL people!  We know who we are.  

            McCain: Without Issues, Without Vision, Without Integrity. --- or Obama: With Truth, With Kindness, With Endurance.

            by CupofTea on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 09:49:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  This was a diary on DKos (5+ / 0-)

            So of course it was directed towards bloggers and readers here, not just the general public, although I agree that Obama stands for the same things regardless of who he's speaking to.

            I have to disagree, though, that the bitter rancor and partisan divide on DKos is new because of the primaries and didn't exist before Obama and Hillary began battling for the nomination.  What was Obama writing about (in 2005)?  More importantly, how was he received on the site?  Look at the comments on his diary.

            I would say that "sane people" on this site are making a mountain out of a molehill, and the "crazy partisans" are doing what they've always done, and this site is largely the same as it's always been, good or bad.

            You can chain me, torture me, you can even destroy this body, but you will never imprison my mind. -Gandhi

            by New England Liberal Elitist on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 09:59:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the issue is deeper (7+ / 0-)

              I used to come onto the site to read about issues.  It was a good exercise to learn about an issue, to see different points of view on that issue, etc.  And not everyone agreed on these.  For example, I would read about a) health care and the pros/cons of single payer; b) immigration, both legal and illegal, and potential solutions; c) the economy and the impact of the mortgage crisis; d) civil rights and liberties, and the potential erosion of those; e) religion in the US and its impact on politics; f) the war in Iraq [what ever happened to that war?]; g) terrorism and how to address it; h) gay rights, marriage, equality; i) abortion rights and roe v. wade; j) the national deficit and what to do about it; k) the politicization of the justice department; etc. etc.

              Now every recommended diary is about a candidate, because there are  blocks of candidate supporters that automatically recommend those diaries.  The system has been abused in a way so as to diminish the importance of issues.  And the result is that fewer people write issue-based diaries, since there is little chance of them being recommended.

              I'm not sure how to fix the problem, since the system currently allows these blocks of people to mass-recommend diaries.  Perhaps Markos can limit the number of diaries that every person can recommend daily to one or two.  That might leave room for the rest of us to recommend issue-based diaries.  But the way it exists today, I think dKos will lose a lot of readers.

              •  wait for a bit (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Luetta, cameoanne

                Issues serve their place, but many people dont find it as reliant as "existing" democrats, and especially some on this site, for electing a president.

                I predict in six months to a year, should Obama win, what you'll see people who are new to politics and signed up for Hope & Dreams (the core value of democrats) fracture in to how best to implement those hopes and dreams (i.e. policy).  For too long, it has been Republicans and their values of Fear and Hate vs Democrats and their, well, their policies.  Democrats never won because democrats always tried selling policies and not selling their core values.

                We'll debate issues and those debates will be like nothing you've seen before.  Right now, we are just all happy we found a party that shares our values (hope, inclusion and tolerance) because nobody else was selling values we liked.

                Patience.  This will get interesting.

            •  New England Liberal Elitist (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              dfarrah

              You weren't here for ObamaRama. I was. We were livid over Roberts and he was telling us that we were out of line.

              I disagreed with him then, and do now. Roberts was and is our own collective nightmare and we were doing our job. We should hold our elective officials accountable for their actions and votes, if we don't then we are just a bunch of not so rabid lambs.

              There still are two Americas. I live in the other one. John McSame wants me to stay there.

              by high uintas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:39:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  If what is happening is the best (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            VoicelessInDC, geomoo

            we can do within the party (on this site and elsewhere), I've got to wonder how it's going to go during the general election.

            •  Seconded re concerns about the GE (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              astoundedstill, doubting thomas

              It's not just the self-righteous demonizing of all alternate views that concerns me.  Even moreso, it's the apparent complete blindness to this problem among many users here.  Try to name this issue and you will see it explained away as easily as the 5 million Republican emails.  My favorite dismissal shows up right at the top of these comments:  this is just how it is, so like it or lump it.  A lot of respectable, intelligent, and long-term members of this site are trying to tell us something.  Please listen, or at least engage in credible discussion.

              I experienced a very depressing moment earlier this week when my eyes suddenly opened to why so much of the mainstream sees progressives as politically correct, nazi-like patrollers of uncompromising purity.  I had actually never even understood where such stereotypes arise.  If this "shut up because your 2 cents is morally disgusting" attitude continues, it will be easy for the media to marginalize and misrepresent Obama supporters in the GE.

              This could be a heartbreaking problem.  Wake up.

              Great diary.  Thanks so much.

              The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

              by geomoo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:20:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Could you provide some (10+ / 0-)

        examples of "abuse and tortured thinking?"

        I just have a real problem reading scolding diaries such as this one, when I try to be civil and open up a discussion with non-Obama supporters.

        Thanks.

        At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

        by Potus2020 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:19:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There is so much that I don't feel finding one or (9+ / 0-)

          two instances would make a difference. Perhaps you are comfortable and haven't noticed the problem.


          "And we are here as on a darkling plain Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night." Matthew Arnold

          by Cantinflas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 09:30:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Here's something for ya - regarding SusanHu (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          chumley, dantes, Potus2020

          and I think it sums up some of the problems with political discourse here at DKos.

          This is what Obama wrote up above:

          This is more than just a matter of "framing," although clarity of language, thought, and heart are required.  It's a matter of actually having faith in the American people's ability to hear a real and authentic debate about the issues that matter.

          Earlier today SusanHu (who, along with her cohort Lary Johnson, has become known here as vehemently anti-Obama) wrote a diary about Obama's "plagiarism" of Gov. Duvall's words. It's a non-story, but what is more compelling is what SusanHu wrote in one of her updates:

          At that same Wisconsin Saturday night speech, although his written remarks stated that he'd talked to "auto makers" about changing their ways, in his speech he said he'd talked to "auto workers about changing their ways."  (Time's Halperin The Page blog has the written remarks provided to journalists before Obama spoke; C-Span has the actual video of what Obama said.)  Nobody in the media picked up on that.  But it'd be priceless to pass that quote around, and let the auto workers react!

          SusanHu is one of these people that is afraid to let the American people hear the truth. She is so devoted to her candidate that she is peddling the notion that an Obama misstatement should be peddled as the truth in order to do him political harm.  She is not only willing to thrown the Obama and the auto workers under a bus, she gleefully tosses honest political discourse away as well. This comment of SusanHu's is one of those "pricelss" moments where you can see the inner workings of a smear campaign. And one on which we see the erosion of Truth, Tone and te Democratic Party.

        •  I think it goes on both ways, Potus2020 (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Potus2020

          I've encountered it in both camps. There are some great candidate supporters in both camps, and some are not so much. Civility counts for all of us and I enjoy the back and forth of lively debate.

          I've read Hillary described as the "c" word, enabler of Bill's infidelity, the use of the right wing meme "Billary", and called a bitch. Nancy Pelosi got that last one, as well.

          I've read Obama called out as an empty suit, too naive, and dishonest. I have to admit that most of the attacks are on his followers, not him.

          But, I think that could be construed as "abuse and tortured thinking".

          There still are two Americas. I live in the other one. John McSame wants me to stay there.

          by high uintas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:49:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've not seen anything that foul (0+ / 0-)

            The C-word and "bitch" are totally crossing the line, but comments like that must have gotten troll-rated before I got to them, because I've never seen them.

            "Billary", well, I don't think that's all that inappropriate considering the role Bill has taken on in this campaign. It might have been inappropriate last summer when Hillary seemed to campaigning on her own.

            At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

            by Potus2020 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:24:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I just watched a long speech by Michelle (0+ / 0-)

              It was spectacular. I really enjoyed it, her framing of the issues and her support for Barack was great. I saw a woman who could easily be President herself.

              Do we call him Michbama? Obamelle? I wouldn't. The general point I'm making is that Billary is widely used in right/wing talk. I know, I live in a really red state and hear it all the time. I just don't want to see it here.

              There still are two Americas. I live in the other one. John McSame wants me to stay there.

              by high uintas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:21:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I can understand that (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                high uintas

                There are some key differences between the Clintons and the Obamas however. For instance, though Michelle I believe would be a quite capable president, that is not how they are marketing this campaign. They've made it clear that she is the anchor of the family and is not interested in running for office or sharing presidential responsibilities in the White House.

                In '92, we were getting 2 for 1. A co-presidency.

                I think Hillary and Bill kept a good distance this past summer, but Bill Clinton crossed the line with his attacks on Obama. It wasn't even what he was saying (at least not for me). He was showing his true colors and made it very apparent that he's going to play a big role in this administration. It was okay when Hillary did it, she wasn't a former president. This is unprecedented and it makes me uncomfortable. I think that's legitimate and I think a lot of folks share my opinion.

                At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

                by Potus2020 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:35:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Have you posted this at MyDD? (8+ / 0-)

        Or over on Taylor Marsh's hatefest?

        Or why don't you try posting this at Larry Johnson's toilet?