Daily Kos

Obama won't be able to beat McCain unless....

Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:25:43 PM PDT

Obama won't be able to beat McCain unless the MSM and a majority of American voters are ready to accept, at the very least, two brutal truths:

  1.  Nearly 4,000 American soldiers have died for a mistake.
  1.  We cannot achieve "success" in Iraq.

This is the takeaway from Thursday's debate.  Here's why.

Obama's case for getting the nomination over Hillary -- that being right on Day 1 is at least as important as being ready on Day 1 -- rests on his ability to debate with McCain from the bedrock position that the decision to invade Iraq was a mistake.  

Obama is able to state his case so clearly and forcefully, and Hillary's rebuttals are necessarily so muddled and nuanced, because Hillary refuses to admit her vote for the AUMF was a mistake.

Why would Hillary willingly cede so much rhetorical ground to Obama?  The conventional wisdom is that Hillary thinks that admitting a mistake would show a weakness that a woman candidate for president cannot afford to project.  But I think there is an even deeper reason:  Hillary doesn't think the American people are ready to hear that every soldier's death and every dollar spent in Iraq was the consequence of a mistake.

Thursday's debate showed that Obama will need to seize this issue to defeat Hillary.  He needs to commit himself to the superiority of the position he took that the war was a mistake from the beginning.  But sooner or later, McCain or the press is going to take note that this position logically implies that thousands of Americans have died for a mistake.  And Obama, if he is as principled as he has shown himself thus far to be, cannot run from that implication.

Obama will also be faced in the general election campaign with the accusation that his plan to withdraw will be "accepting defeat" and "cutting and running."  The only principled response Obama can make is that the war was a mistake from the beginning.  He should point out that McCain, having supported the war from the beginning, is so heavily invested in the decision to go to war that he will not declare success and leave until that decision is vindicated.  McCain's definition of success in Iraq is a day when we have achieved improvements in our own national security and in the lives of the Iraqi people that are equal to the thousands of lives we have lost and the trillion dollars we have spent. That is why he is willing to contemplate the necessity of a 100-year occupation.  

Obama should argue that we can no longer achieve that kind of success in Iraq.  He should point out that most of our losses were unnecessary, and the objective now is to avoid further unnecessary losses while achieving as much as we can for our national security and for the Iraqi people from the compromised and irretrievable position Bush has put us in.  And he will have to persuade the American people that while the results won't be pretty, completing that objective is the only kind of success that remains available to us.

I have stated these two brutal truths in minimal form.  Of course, there are even more brutal truths about Iraq that Americans will ultimately need to face:  the lies and deceptions that engendered the aforementioned mistake, Iraq's one million civilian casualties, the likelihood of future terrorism on American soil as a direct blowback from the suffering we have inflicted on the Iraqi people, the weakening of our strategic position in both hard and soft power, and on and on.  But the two minimal truths I have identified are the ones that are absolutely fundamental to Obama's case against McCain.

I think it fair to say that as of February 2008, the MSM is not yet ready to speak even these two minimal truths directly and openly.  To the contrary, the MSM censors itself and marginalizes those who would speak these truths.

So my question is:  Will American voters be ready to hear these truths this summer and fall?  And will Obama be able to present these truths without being drowned out and smeared by the MSM?

Vote below.  But count me worried.

Poll

Is the mainstream media and the American public ready to accept that 4,000 Americans have died for a mistake and that "success" in Iraq is now impossible?

24%59 votes
2%5 votes
51%123 votes
20%48 votes
1%4 votes

| 239 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Barack Obama, John McCain, Iraq War, MSM, cut and run, debates, Hillary Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 60 comments

    •  considering... (7+ / 0-)

      ...the msm is closely tied to the war, either finacially through their parent companies or politically through their management, it will be a hard row to hoe, but we have to try

      please pardon the poor keyboarding, i can never decide which two of my ten thumbs to use, so hopefully some of you are fluent in Typo

      by TAPayne on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:31:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yup (6+ / 0-)

        And there's a poll choice missing:

        A good majority of the American people are already on-board with ending that madness; they know it was a mistake. They're quite ready.

        (Obama) will have to persuade the American people that while the results won't be pretty, completing that objective is the only kind of success that remains available to us

        I suspect that part of the problem is having McCain as the standard-bearer for the 'Thugs. The ghost of Vietnam looms large, every time you see his old mug on the screen.

        But if Obama really wanted to seize this, he'd latch onto the manufactured bullshit that led us into this quagmire, and club both Hillary and McCain over the head with it.

        It isn't "cutting and running" if you're getting out because you were LIED INTO IT in the first place. There is no honor, moral or otherwise, in illegal invasion. So you have to ask yourself at this point "Why isn't Obama doing this?" Considering he didn't vote for it to begin with, I'd like to know what the hell he's waiting for...

        On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

        by o the umanity on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:47:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree that the American people (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          o the umanity

          are on board, with ending this debacle. I just have a hard time calling it a mistake. 43* didn't make any mistake, it was fully intentional. 4000 Americans have died for bushco's greed, lies, and vanity, but not because it was a mistake.

          -7.25 -6.77 Uh oh georgie, the peasants are revolting! I agree but I would have called them icky, not revolting.

          by Lovo on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 05:35:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  He's waiting, I'd guess, for the nomination (0+ / 0-)

          Since when has it been his style in the primaries to turn up the fire and brimstone knob to eleven? Expect a sharper tongue in the General Election, where his opponent will be a Republican.  

          •  He shouldn't take that for granted (0+ / 0-)

            and neither should you.

            He should be clubbing his current opponent over the head with this NOW. She voted for it, remember?

            IMO, if he bared some fangs on this issue, he'd pick up a lot of undecideds.

            He's up against the well-oiled, practiced, experienced Clinton Campaign Machine. If he can best that, he can best anything the 'Thugs have.

            On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

            by o the umanity on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 08:55:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then he'd be the angry divider candidate (0+ / 0-)

              He scored major points off Iraq on Thurs' debate, and yet he has not developed a reputation as a fire-breathing negative-campaigning angry candidate.  This approach has been fabulously successful.  He is already picking up undecideds!  By the tens and hundreds of thousands already.  It is foolish to put an entire strategy at risk just to employ one possible tactic.

              In the general election, however, it will be a match of GOP policy vs Democratic policy.  Of prp-Iraq McCain vs anti-Iraq Obama.  Of course Iraq will be a general election campaign issue.

      •  What's this war you speak of? (0+ / 0-)

        The MSM has dne such a good job over the past five years, I did not even know a war was on.  Being as I am so smart, and Americans are so dumb, I am sure no other American is aware there is a war on either.  But if they are, I am sure they are wildly enthusiastic.  Because, as mentioned, they do not have my smartitude and look how well the MSM fooled me!

        Which is my deeply snotty, sarcastic, assholish way of saying: American actually know about Iraq and know the situation sucks.  The tipping point from "Mission Accomplished" to Historic Disaster hapened long, long ago.  

        Look at the record-setting voter turnout.  2004 set a voter turnout record and 2008 so far is shattering those numbers.  Those people are not turning out because they are happy.  They are not turning out to Demcratic primaries in order to stay the course and vote for a GOP candidate.

        Let's stop inventing begbears and boogiemen to fear.  Anyone who advocates timidity and withdrawal just as the foe is about to rout is nt giving good advice.

    •  your fear is that the truth will be damaging. (10+ / 0-)

      We have fallen that far?

      Or will the truth set us free?

      He not only needs to keep pressing the issue that Iraq was a mistake, but that it was a calculated deception.  He didn't fall for that deception, so he can make that case easily whereas Hillary, who did fall for it (or pretended to) can't.

      The majority of the public already thinks it was a mistake.  It is only a short jump to "calculated deception" and the MSM would gladly take that ball and run with it because it would make for great ratings.  

      And Barak would have legions of soldiers at his side to testify to the truth that he would be championing.  They, along with the Iraqis, are the ones suffering the most from this travesty, and they didn't make the decision, the Bush admin did.  Polling in the armed forces is now fully anti-Iraq.  Read the LTEs in Stripes if you doubt that.

      And finally, as the economy continues to tank (the signs are abundant and increasing) the public and the media will be looking for scapegoats and $100+ oil along with a hemorrhaging budget wound from a needless war will make the truth self-evident.

      We have nothing to fear but fear itself, prof.  And nothing to fall back on but the truth.

      "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." -Nancy Pelosi, 6/29/07.

      by nailbender on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:00:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes! (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, nailbender, farleftcoast

        "And Barak would have legions of soldiers at his side to testify to the truth that he would be championing.  They, along with the Iraqis, are the ones suffering the most from this travesty, and they didn't make the decision, the Bush admin did.  Polling in the armed forces is now fully anti-Iraq.  Read the LTEs in Stripes if you doubt that."

        My son is in the military, was in the invasion and redeployed, stop-lossed, etc.  He's the one who called me a few months ago excited about Obama's possible candidacy.  His concerns are that our country is failing economically and that none of the vets will have anything to return home TO as civilians.

        He is not the least bit concerned with the appearances of vanity mentioned in this diary.  There are weightier matters hanging in the balance -- like having a future at all!

        It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. Alfred Adler

        by Quicksilver2723 on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:18:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "Obama won't be able to beat McCain unless" (0+ / 0-)

      Hillary is nominated.

      LOOK IT! I WROTE A COMMENT ON BIG ORANGE SEXY TIME!!!!

      by Mark Warner is God on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:24:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Your analysis is too narrow (10+ / 0-)

    They will be running on many issues - not just the war.

    Personally I expect Obama to beat McCain by arguing the fiscal irresponsibility of the Iraqi occupation.

    'I speak, therefore I act' is the great American illusion of politics.

    by snout on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:32:24 PM PDT

  •  A shallow comment (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nulwee, o the umanity, CKDexterHaven

    Just looking at the two people in that picture, I think it seems obvious that Obama can beat McCain!

    No day but today--Obama '08

    by someotherguy86 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:35:16 PM PDT

    •  BREAKING! They're going to have the campaign (3+ / 0-)

      anyway.

      I assume you are touting some extraordinary skill you have for predicting the future by looking at one photograph, and that you have a number of examples of prior success doing this.

      Otherwise, you just appear like the guy jumping up and down shouting 'Hi ma!' behind the tv reporter at a crime scene.

      Just sayin...

      You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

      by Clem Yeobright on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:06:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Law professor . . . (4+ / 0-)

    Has the UN Charter been permanently damaged by our invasion of Iraq?

    Unless we maintain permanent global military pre-eminence for a long long time to come, we will come to regret the geo-political preceents set by the Iraqi Aumf vote  and subsequent invasion of Iraq.

    If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

    by Bill White on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:36:31 PM PDT

  •  Where've you been? (6+ / 0-)

    I'm quite sure that I've heard cited several polls showing that a large majority of Americans already believe both of these things.

  •  IMO most Americans want us out Iraq. (4+ / 0-)

    Also the economy is now a greater concern than Iraq.

    IMO even if McCain is elected he will have to either raise taxes or draw down the American presence in Iraq due to economic necessity.

    This war is a terrible drain of money.

    We shall overcome, someday. Yes we can.

    by Sam Wise Gingy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:41:37 PM PDT

  •  rhetorical strategy (8+ / 0-)

    Yes, they died because of a mistake (and a lie!), but they also died for each other and for us.  (It doesn't have to be an either/or.)  Their lives were not spent in vain.  The mistakes that were made getting them into Iraq, and throughout the occupation, aren't on them, and in no way negate the sacrifice they made.  

    However, their lives are on Bush's hands (and anyone else's who perpetuated the lies).

    That's how I'd play this if I were Obama.

    Social advance depends as much upon the process through which it is secured as upon the result itself. --Jane Addams

    by shock on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:45:23 PM PDT

    •  It sounds nice... (3+ / 0-)

      But if we (at least here) agree that the invasion of Iraq has actually been counterproductive for our national security, how were their deaths "for us"?  We gained nothing from their service.  It is absolutely true that their willingness to serve and die for us was noble and should be honored, but I fail to see how their deaths served any purpose "for us."

      •  different levels (5+ / 0-)

        Note, I didn't say they served a purpose for us (although perhaps they did serve a purpose more directly for their comrades, perhaps saving a life, for example).  The colossal geopolitical strategic "mistake(s)" (and the lies of some corrupt politicians) is just one aspect of how and why each of these people died.  For example, they also died for their own personal honor, for loyalty to their corps, etc.

        I agree that the US as a country, and indeed my life personally, probably didn't gain from their service -- perhaps even is worse off now.  But that's not their fault.  Nor, do I believe this is the only measure of their personal sacrifice we should make.

        Social advance depends as much upon the process through which it is secured as upon the result itself. --Jane Addams

        by shock on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:07:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think what we have -- hopefully -- gained from (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, shock

        their service (and deaths) is a lesson in what not to do in the future.  They've died so that we will learn to be less eager to invade a country or otherwise put soldiers' lives on the line willy-nilly.  Considering our past with Vietnam, I don't know how optimistic to be about whether this lesson will be learned in the long run, but that's the short-term benefit, at least.

        Now, I don't know how Obama makes that point work rhetorically.  It's hard to make that point without making a lot of people angry, probably, but as long as that anger is directed toward someone other than Obama, maybe that's ok.

    •  Great comment. (4+ / 0-)

      And I think it's true, not just rhetorical. lawprofessor's framing of this is wrong.

      Help Russ Feingold help progressive candidates - support the Progressive Patriots Fund.

      by scardanelli on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:58:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, and a "success" that involves (4+ / 0-)

      39 deaths per month is not the type of "success" that we want.  If I were Obama, I would argue for the type of "success" in which our troops are brought home safely and quickly, and our diplomatic efforts in the region are improved.

    •  Yes there lives were lost in vain (0+ / 0-)

      You can try to cover it up with some fuzzy feeling bullshit, but that doesn't change the truth.  Just like the people in Vietnam died in vain, the soldiers in Iraq also have done so.  It's not their fault, but they died for no good reason.  

      Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

      by Asak on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:40:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The MSM can/will not admit the war was... (5+ / 0-)

    ...a mistake because they are equally culpable of amplifying the run up.

    "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." - Abraham Lincoln

    by Loudoun County Dem on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:45:42 PM PDT

  •  This is so very DLC... (10+ / 0-)

    We must try and "out-Republican" the Republicans in order to win. That's what we were told in `04, too, with the Kerry nomination.

    I think you're wrong. You have no idea what Iraq will be like come November. Or the economy for that matter. And spending $12 billion a month in Iraq just might not be the best use of our resources in a faltering economy.

    •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Clem Yeobright

      What are you referring to?

    •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

      And if the economy tanks, we just have to play a tape of McCain saying he has to 'study up' on the economy over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over

      Obama is going to be the next president.  Bush will forever be known as the president who lost it for white men.  That's a distinction that's worse than impeachment.

      Son, you're makin' the same mistake with Iraq that I did with your mother. I didn't pull out in time.

      by fou on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:30:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Heck Yeah They Will (3+ / 0-)

    What every poll shows is that there are three basic positions on the Iraq war: the war was wrong from the start, is wrong today, and we should get out now (approx. 40%); Bush was right, the war was necessary, and we should stay the course (approx. 30%); rightness or wrongness isn't the issue, what should the US do right now?  stay for 1-2 years, put things in order as best we can, and then get out, Iraq is not our country (approx. 30%).

    Obama's position on Iraq fits the public mood extremely well.  Set a deadline, do what you need to, and then get out.  On this issue he'd probably get the support of 70% of the electorate.  McCain's "100 years" comment was a gift to Democrats, because the % of Americans who support an open-ended commitment to Iraq really is only 10%.

    Of the three Dem candidates, the one who might have gotten into some trouble, actually, was Edwards.  His position on the Iraq war essentially was that held by the 40%.  If he'd become the nominee and the GOP had played the issue skillfully they might have been able to rally the support of voters in the third category (ie. the 30%).

    What does this third group won't?  Withdrawl with some honor.  The US accomplished all of the goals in Iraq which were reasonable.  Hussein was overthrown.  Iraq now has a government.  We're not obligated to stay there now for another 2-3 decades (and what happens next will be up to Iraqis).  

    The % of Americans who now think the war in Iraq was a mistake, by the way, is now approx. 59%.  Not only do I think Obama could win with this issue, but skillfully handled he could win in a blowout.  

    "Wear the eye patch, Bret. Wear the funky, funky eye patch".

    by ClaudiusTheGod on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:54:11 PM PDT

    •  The people who want withdrawal with honor... (0+ / 0-)

      won't get it.  The chance of that passed the day we invaded.  Maybe they'll try to delude themselves into it, but it will not happen in reality.  Just like our defeat in Vietnam.  Nixon tried to declare victory, but history remembers it as a defeat, and rightfully so.  

      Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

      by Asak on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:38:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think you (6+ / 0-)

    pose a good question. Americans respect the military but they want a way out of Iraq. Obama will be running on getting the troops out by early 2010. Next fall, I think most americans will completely agree that a seven year war is more than enough.
    John Kerry's quote is still hanging out there ''who wants to be the last soldier to die ''
    I think McCain will have a hard time arguing his case for a 100 year or 10 year war.
    Obama does not waver from an issue like Iraq. He thinks it was a mistake and most americans agree.
    It is the best single position on the biggest issue of any of the candidates left in the running.
    I think if HRC was matched with McCain the whole narrative goes back the standard flip-flop accusations..blah. HRC will be on the defensive on Iraq. That is a fact. Obama will not be.

  •  if it comes to what you point out (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Tanya

    I think he can get around this.  First of all, I would embrace the argument that it was a mistake.  Then I would play on the myth of exceptionalism with a message something like when we make mistakes as individuals, in America we own up to them and try to correct them.  Collectively as Americans, we need to own up to the mistake and correct it, and I will lead in that effort with the assistance and blessings of all Americans, because we are better than that.

    Or something to that effect.  I hope I can communicate that effectively.  Basically admitting it was a mistake (which polls show the majority of the public believes) then asking Americans if it within their societal code (what does a parent tell their children about dealing with life's mistakes) to continue to make that mistake or own up to it and correct it.  Use individual examples, perhaps rhetorical, then make the point collectively.

    From the little I've seen Obama (living overseas and relying on youtube), it appears he is good at that sort of rhetorical speaking, in fact it is his appeal.

    It looks just like a Telefunken U47...you'll love it! - with leather...?

    by Jeffersonian Democrat on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:05:31 PM PDT

  •  60% of Americans agree with Obama on Iraq. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Quicksilver2723

    Iraq war is Obama's leading issue.  He is the only candidate running who was right about Iraq.

    In an Obama vs. McCain contest, Obama hammers on McCain for his Iraq war failure and 60% of the electorate agrees with Obama.

    Obama wins on Iraq and US national security vs. McCain. No other candidate can do that.

  •  It's working like it was supposed to. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    farleftcoast

    The purpose of wars has always been to get rid of surplus young guys so the old guy can still get laid.

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:20:56 PM PDT

  •  You're dreaming (0+ / 0-)

    I realized today why Obama will win in a landslide.  He's he man everyman wants to be, and the man every woman wants to fuck.  That, my friend, is who becomes the president.  He's already the leader, and McCain is a dinosaur.

    We've won!  We've wooooooooooooooooooon already!

    Son, you're makin' the same mistake with Iraq that I did with your mother. I didn't pull out in time.

    by fou on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:27:46 PM PDT

  •  I disagree. (0+ / 0-)

    I think the war is a strength for Obama.  Most Americans believe we never should have invaded Iraq.  Obama can hit McCain over the head with the statement McCain made on Hardball in 2002... he agreed that we would be greated as liberators prior to the invasion.  Plus, Al Qaeda is no weaker now than it was prior to 9-11.  That doesn't even include his "we'll be there for another 100 years" quote.

    I think Obama's two greatest weaknesses in the general election is his support of drivers licenses for illegal immigrants and his views on illegal drugs... he thinks we need to punish the dealers/makers instead of the users.  That's an intelligent stance, but Repugs will twist that shit all around.  I think Obama would win because he can constantly remind the right how much they hate McCain by constantly mentioning that he (BO) agrees on McCain-Feingold and McCain-Kennedy.  

  •  A "mistake"? Give me a fucking break. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    farleftcoast, Tanya, Quicksilver2723

    But I think there is an even deeper reason:  Hillary doesn't think the American people are ready to hear that every soldier's death and every dollar spent in Iraq was the consequence of a mistake.

    A mistake implies error. There was no error. This was deliberate.

    And it goes even deeper than that. Every person killed or injured, or forced to flee their homes in this clusterfuck has done so as a result of

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    LIES...

    Will the American public wake up to that fact? I don't know, but if you do I know of a place to hear the trials.

    How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb? Two. one to hold the giraffe and one to fill the tub with fluorescent toys.

    by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:39:05 PM PDT

  •  Bloody John McCain (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    farleftcoast

    "More War, Less Jobs"

    This guy's Republican base hates him over immigration and taxes.  We have video of him singing "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" and telling a group that "jobs aren't coming back."  If Obama can't beat him, he can't beat any Republican.

    PS-but with us behind him, Obama will destroy Bloody John McCain

  •  It wasn't a mistake. It was a lie (3+ / 0-)

    They died for the greed and lies of the neocons. I knew it was a lie and I supported it at first, but when it became clear they had no post-war plan they lost my support. And as I began to do more research I've come to the conclusion they have only one purpose: to fuck things up so badly they can't get unfucked.

    Why? to hide the looting of America. I call it the Enron plot. Embezzle money till the company is gutted. Or you might call it the Die Hard plot. Thieves plan is to blow up building to hide a great theft.

    They have damaged Iraq so badly it'll be a generation before things get better if then. They have fucked America so badly, it'll be a generation before things get better if then.

    What do we tell the parents of the dead soldiers? And what do we tell the wounded veterans? The double amputees, the soldiers with burned off faces, and the ones with emotional scars that will last a lifetime. Can we tell them they were maimed and killed for a lie? What do we say? How do we make amends? That's small compared to what we've allowed to happen to the people of Iraq.

    "Never have so few taken so much from so many for so long."

    by londubh on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:08:49 AM PDT

  •  I think American people have accepted it (0+ / 0-)

    Yes, for the last time, this war was a mistake, these soldiers died without a good reason. Do you get some sort of glee when you see this fact recognized in public?

    So now we've admitted it (for the millionth time).

    Now what?

    This is one point that Republicans still have on us. People on the left refuse to seriously ask that question. Or rather, they refuse to shut up, look closely at the situation, and think through the consequences of the options ahead.

    For one thing, many (including the author of this diary) can't grasp that the admission doesn't recommend any future course of action whatsoever. That makes us look stupid and petty.

    I say that too many people are dying too quickly to spend our energy unpacking the history of this conflict. Sure, we can point fingers at the people who got us into the mess, but that doesn't do shit for anyone. The most important question is: Now what?

    I always said "Withdrawl, of course." Then I got called out by a friend: "Isn't that just a kneejerk reaction? How much do you really know about what would have the best consequences in the long run?"

    She had a good point. "Withdrawl" for me was a knee-jerk reaction. I think I still support it, but I do it with a heavy heart. I know that it is a death sentence for many innocent Iraqis. I also see the political dynamics in Iraq changing. The Sunnis now see that they will lose any civil war, and they'd rather keep us around than to fight one. That's new. If the difference between a quick withdrawl and a gradual one is the difference between terrorism and all-out war, I think it's worth considering the gradual option.

    We can do that whithout letting our moronic leaders off the hook. But Iraq is too serious for us to be acting like the political lynch mob.

    But we also need to look like we're paying attention and not just repeating slogans. And in addition to that, it would be good if we were also actually paying attention!

    •  If Iraqis decide to kill one another (0+ / 0-)

      then stepping back and letting them do it is not offering a death sentence.  They need to take responsibility for their actions too.  We obviously can't stop them from doing it anyway, so it's not like Rwanda where the world stood back and did nothing.  We've tried to stop them, but it has not worked.  Of course, we caused the whole problem in the first place which does make it worse.  

      Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

      by Asak on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:45:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Obviously," huh? How can you be so sure? (0+ / 0-)

        See, this is what I'm talking about.

        How did we we suddently become so smug that we know what will and won't work in Iraq, to the point of saying it's "obvious"?

        I would wager that anyone who thinks that Iraq's future is obvious knows very little about what's happening in Iraq. I hope people like that aren't making our policies. We've had enough of the neo-cons, who made exactly this mistake: They had their uninformed theories and their political agendas, and they didn't bother to actually look at details.

        If you replace one agenda with another, one uninformed theory with another, do you really get the right to think you know better?

        Apart from that, I strongly object to your "fuck em if they want to kill each other" attitude. Sometimes I'm ashamed of what the Left has become.

  •  McCain will use The 130 PRESENT votes on Obama (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    farleftcoast

    In the state senate, Obama voted “present” on several abortion bills, a bill regarding firearms in a school zone, and one on concealed weapons. Obama says that on the abortion-related votes, he worked out an arrangement with abortion-rights advocates to get Democrats to vote “present” on bills if they feared a “no” would endanger their re-election. It seems like a cop-out, to be sure, but even the presidents of Illinois Planned Parenthood Council and the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence backed his decisions to vote present. But those points are pretty much moot, since in Illinois voting “present” is essentially the same as voting “no” — without having to go on the record as voting “no.

    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com...

    And he is carrying the same political expediency not voting to the Senate.

    Bet in 2002,  he would have done the same with the Iraq War Authorization vote.

    He is against the War,  but he has presidential ambitions and wouldnt want to be called weak--so he would have avoided voting for the measure so as not to be on record.

    Fact check Obama spins on Hillary http://facts.hillaryhub.com/

    by timber on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:25:39 AM PDT

  •  NO Mistake Involved (0+ / 0-)

    At All! The selling of the war by the White House "WHIG" cabal was an outright and deliberate deception from the outset!

    All the ugly and immensely destructive carnage wrought upon the Iraqi peoples and American resources was nothing less the their greed and avarice getting ahead of themselves. What a total miscalculation on their part, and quite fitting in its toll; befitting such an unbridled lust for oil.

    As the war will only continue until the American peoples come to grips with their losses against the White Houses motives, this war will remain a deadly sand trap! The quicker these facts are brought to the fore the sooner the savings and healing will begin.

    Hiding from the White Houses' criminality only extends the cost and implicate even more people in their guilt of the original sin.

  •  The Obama campaign (0+ / 0-)

    needs to send every American a piece of campaign literature that looks like an invoice, a bill that clearly shows their portion of the Iraqi war debt.  

    Americans as a whole only want to win, they don't much care about the details.  As long as the media paints the war as being "won", Obama has a disadvantage.  

    However, with the economic aspect emphasized, I think people will certainly give serious pause to McCain and his "100 year plan".

  •  It is always possible to manufacture a worry (0+ / 0-)

    But your thnking, if you'll forgive me, is so Summer of 2005.  Ever since Katrina America has realzer her emperor wears no clothes.

    Observe record-breaking Dem primary turnout.  DO yo think those people are turning out because they are disinterested?  Do yo think they are swamping GOP turnouts because they are eager to vote for John McCain?  Do you think we are seeing what we are seeing because America is eaget to Stay The Course?

    It's 2008.  

  •  I think McCain goes down in flames (0+ / 0-)

    Have you watched him in the debates lately?  He's acting like a tired, mean spirited, old man.  He talks so slowly that it seems like he's struggling to speak, and he also seems to lose track of what he's saying.  He has zero energy.  It literally seems like he already has one foot in the grave.  Then when he goes after Romney he acts like a mean old bastard.  

    He's got nothing going for him in terms of personality, energy or charisma.  Plus he's tied to Iraq and the Republican party of the past 8 years.  

    Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

    by Asak on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:48:01 AM PDT

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