Daily Kos

Obama: Towards a Single-Payer Health Program

Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 04:31:15 PM PDT

While it is not exactly new, it is apparently news to many Daily Kos members that Obama's Health Care Plan is indeed Universal Health Coverage.  Let's face it, with the exception of mandatory requirement differences, John Edward's Proposal was liberally copied and is victorious.  According to Robert Reich:

In almost every important respect, all major Democratic plans are the same. They require employers to "play or pay" -- either provide coverage to their employees or contribute to the cost of coverage. They create purchasing pools that will offer insurance to anyone who doesn't get it from an employer. They offer a public heath-insurance option. The plans preserve freedom of choice of doctors. They aim to save money through more preventive care, better management of chronic disease, and standardized information technology. All of them subsidize lower-income families.

As a health care software developer, I'd like to talk a bit about the lower-level details of Barack Obama's plan and why I think it's not just rhetoric, but is actually likely to succeed as a single-payer, truly universal health plan.

Before I get started, I'd like to first quote from Robert Reich's Blog since I agree with him -- the current "mandate" nonsense is absolutely counter-productive.

(Reich continues...)
Despite some skirmishing over whose subsidies are most generous, the subsidies are about the same. The major Democratic plans would spend nearly an identical amount of money helping low- and middle-income families because they rely on the same source of general revenue, derived from allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire. Given the myriad ways universal health insurance might otherwise be organized -- single payer, employer mandate, health-insurance vouchers, tax credits -- this Democratic consensus is striking. It also highlights the abject failure of Republicans to come up with any coherent plan.

Take a closer look and even the candidates' positions on mandates aren't all that different. John Edwards has proposed to automatically enroll people in health insurance on their tax returns, but has said this mandate won't apply until premiums are affordable. Hillary Clinton says she favors mandates, but isn't sure there should be a penalty for noncompliance. Barack Obama favors an immediate mandate for children, but doesn't include one for adults. He says he's willing to revisit the issue after making health insurance more affordable and enrollment easier, and is also considering an automatic enrollment with an opt-out for those who don't want to be included.

As a practical matter, the difference between Sen. Clinton's and Sen. Obama's approaches come down to timing and sequencing. Mrs. Clinton wants a mandate first, believing that enrolling the younger and healthier will help reduce costs for everyone else. Mr. Obama thinks forcing people to buy health insurance before it's affordable isn't realistic. He wants to lower health costs first, and is willing to consider a mandate only if necessary.

Depending on who you talk to, we're talking about 2-3% of the population that might fall through the cracks with either Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton's program.  I know this is crass, but that 2-3% is the sampling error in our current predicament.   Frankly, if we're even close to our goals, it'll be an absolutely huge accomplishment.  Let's focus on the 97% first?  We can always come back later and make things mandatory if it turns out that people are evading the system.  For now, we've got a big enough mountain to climb; we can debate how to reach the last 2-3% once we're at 95% coverage here in the United States.  Right now I'm more concerned about the "bootstrap details", how our candidates will address and overcome the political, social, and yes, technical barriers to change.

So, for this diary, I'd like to explain why Barak Obama's health-care plan is not just a bunch of words and policy posturing, but an actual recipe for success.

---

The Vision

Quality, Affordable and Portable Coverage for All

   Obama will make available a new national health plan to all Americans, including the self-employed and small businesses, to buy affordable health coverage that is similar to the plan available to members of Congress. The Obama plan will have the following features:
        1. Guaranteed eligibility. No American will be turned away from any insurance plan because of illness or pre-existing conditions
[note: I've talked to saffers at Obama for America, and there is not a restriction on which companies can participate]
        2. Comprehensive benefits. The benefit package will be similar to that offered through Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP), the plan members of Congress have. The plan will cover all essential medical services, including preventive, maternity and mental health care.
        3. Affordable premiums, co-pays and deductibles.
        4. Subsidies. Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need financial assistance will receive an income-related federal subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan.
        5. Simplified paperwork and reined in health costs.
        6. Easy enrollment. The new public plan will be simple to enroll in and provide ready access to coverage.
        7. Portability and choice. Participants in the new public plan and the National Health Insurance Exchange (see below) will be able to move from job to job without changing or jeopardizing their health care coverage.
        8. Quality and efficiency. Participating insurance companies in the new public program will be required to report data to ensure that standards for quality, health information technology and administration are being met.
        9. [note: I've talked to saffers at Obama for America, and this refers to a single-payer federally administered program, not some sort of Republican Medicare-D private insurance patchwork nightmare.]

I'm the lead software architect in a small health care software development outfit.  Our work is entirely open source software (aka completely free, with no lock-in).  We are dedicated to increasing the quality and lowering the cost of medical research.  After Dean's loss in 2004, I withdrew from political involvement and got back to heads-down coding (with the exception of a few plugs for verified voting).  This all changed last year when I was reading Lessig's Law/Technology Blog, to my surprise, he was actually excited about a candidate who he endorsed as being, as far as politicians go, technologically gifted.  And Lawrence was correct, I had never seen a politician include a technology plan that directly talked about how to Create a Transparent and Connected Democracy, among other things.  As Robert Reich says:

I’m also impressed by the up-front investments in information technology in Obama’s plan, and the reinsurance mechanism for coping with the costs of catastrophic illness. HRC is far less specific on both counts. In short: They’re both advances, but O’s is the better of the two.

In the last debate both Hillary and Barack mentioned two ways that this new health care initiative will be funded: additional taxes, and dramatic improvements in technology. This should not be taken lightly. Good technology just doesn't happen, it is deliberately nurtured with the correct legal, social and political framework. The majority of technology plans fail to varying degrees, perhaps only 20% of them meet or exceed initial expectations, another 40% are functional but way over budget or are delivered much later than expected, and the final 40% are simply write-offs: complete and utter failure with enormous costs and psychological impact -- people stop to believe.  So, what is truly at stake here isn't just political failure, even if we pass the bills and get the public support, there is a vast amount of technical work to turn this dream into a reality.  Even a few mis-steps, and we could tarnish the vision of single-payer (the ultimate in cost reduction) for at least another generation.

I support Barak Obama, not for his policy (Clinton's is acceptable), but more since I personally believe he will provide the political environment that will best support this goal.

---

Public Involvement, Early and Often

When Obama says that he'll put the health-care debates and up on C-SPAN, I believe him.  This isn't just a talking point, it's a central part of his belief in open government.  To quote from his
transparent democracy section of his technology plan:

Barack Obama will use the most current technological tools available to make government less beholden to special interest groups and lobbyists and promote citizen participation in government decision-making. Obama will integrate citizens into the actual business of government by:

  1. Making government data available online in universally accessible formats to allow citizens to make use of that data to comment, derive value, and take action in their own communities. Greater access to environmental data, for example, will help citizens learn about pollution in their communities, provide information about local conditions back to government and empower people to protect themselves.
  2. Establishing pilot programs to open up government decision-making and involve the public in the work of agencies, not simply by soliciting opinions, but by tapping into the vast and distributed expertise of the American citizenry to help government make more informed decisions.
  3. Requiring his appointees who lead Executive Branch departments and rulemaking agencies to conduct the significant business of the agency in public, so that any citizen can watch a live feed on the Internet as the agencies debate and deliberate the issues that affect American society. He will ensure that these proceedings are archived for all Americans to review, discuss and respond. He will require his appointees to employ all the technological tools available to allow citizens not just to observe, but also to participate and be heard in these meetings.
  4. Restoring the basic principle that government decisions should be based on the best-available, scientifically-valid evidence and not on the ideological predispositions of agency officials.
  5. Lifting the veil from secret deals in Washington with a web site, a search engine, and other web tools that enable citizens easily to track online federal grants, contracts, earmarks, and lobbyist contacts with government officials.
  6. Giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days before signing any non-emergency legislation.
  7. Bringing democracy and policy deliberations directly to the people by requiring his Cabinet officials to have periodic national online town hall meetings to answer questions and discuss issues before their agencies.
  8. Employing technologies, including blogs, wikis and social networking tools, to modernize internal, cross-agency, and public communication and information sharing to improve government decision-making.

This promise is, frankly, earth-shattering to me.  It is exactly what we need -- and, realistically, it is the only way that a very large, ambitious program like this health-care initiative will make it.  Active involvement by consumers and technologists is absolutely a critical component of a technology-based health-care revolution; we have to connect consumers and health-care practitioners with those who are defining and building the system.  Our country is large and diverse, with hundreds of legal jurisdictions, thousands of hospitals, and millions of providers.  Getting us all on the same page is a massive effort, and will only succeed if the process is open.

On a personal level, I'll be writing the code that integrates with this insurance system -- tracking medical history, billing information, and all sorts of pesky details.  I will be much more successful in making your healthcare sytem work smoothly if the system is specified out in the open.  Closed systems are notoriously faulty not only in scope, goals and also in implementation.  Please, help me help you by making the process open.

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Privacy, Confidentiality, and Trust

Although I think Barack Obama's administration could focus more on privacy, their technology plan contains a good start -- at least they are thinking of the issues:

Safeguard our Right to Privacy

The open information platforms of the 21st century can also tempt institutions to violate the privacy of citizens. Dramatic increases in computing power, decreases in storage costs and huge flows of information that characterize the digital age bring enormous benefits, but also create risk of abuse. We need sensible safeguards that protect privacy in this dynamic new world. As president, Barack Obama will strengthen privacy protections for the digital age and will harness the power of technology to hold government and business accountable for violations of personal privacy.

  1. To ensure that powerful databases containing information on Americans that are necessary tools in the fight against terrorism are not misused for other purposes, Barack Obama supports restrictions on how information may be used and technology safeguards to verify how the information has actually been used.
  2. Obama supports updating surveillance laws and ensuring that law enforcement investigations and intelligence-gathering relating to U.S. citizens are done only under the rule of law.
  3. Obama will also work to provide robust protection against misuses of particularly sensitive kinds of information, such as e-health records and location data that do not fit comfortably within sector-specific privacy laws.
  4. Obama will increase the Federal Trade Commission’s enforcement budget and will step up international cooperation to track down cyber-criminals so that U.S. law enforcement can better prevent and punish spam, spyware, telemarketing and phishing intrusions into the privacy of American homes and computers.

While functionality and efficiency is very important to a health care system, a very important consideration is confidentiality.  With the prevalence of genetic testing and digitized medical records, the sheer opportunity for and damage that could be done by mischief is enormous.  Regulations like HIPPA need to be improved, to loosen restrictions where they prevent medical research, and to tighten them when the identity of a patient could be compromised.  Sloppy design and implementation is commonplace, and it will take a true dedication, from the top down, to privacy for a system like this to value people's privacy, and gain their trust.  

If a health care system isn't trusted, it won't be used or the information in it will be incorrect, or direct mis-information provided by patients.

---

Adequate Funding, Investment

Obama seems to understand that this will cost money, and this is a relief.  One of the hard aspects of building information systems for the medical market is open competition for grants.  I believe From his proposal:

A key feature of Barack Obama’s health care plan is the use of technology to lower the cost of health care. Most medical records are still stored on paper, which makes them difficult to use to coordinate care, measure quality, or reduce medical errors. Processing paper claims also costs twice as much as processing electronic claims. Barack Obama will invest $10 billion a year over the next five years to move the U.S. health care system to broad adoption of standards-based electronic health information systems, including electronic health records. He will also phase in requirements for full implementation of health IT and commit the necessary federal resources to make it happen. Obama will ensure that these systems are developed in coordination with providers and frontline workers, including those in rural and underserved areas. Obama will ensure that patients’ privacy is protected. A study by the Rand Corporation found that if most hospitals and doctors offices adopted electronic health records, up to $77 billion of savings would be realized each year through improvements such as reduced hospital stays, avoidance of duplicative and unnecessary testing, more appropriate drug utilization, and other efficiencies. Obama will make the Veterans Health Administration, the nation’s largest integrated health system, a model in the use of technology to modernize and improve health care delivery. To ensure that veterans get the best care possible, he will improve electronic records interoperability between the Pentagon and VA, expand effectiveness research, promote wellness programs, and use technology to improve the accountability for performance and quality.

Besides technology funding, he's promising more money for NIH, to bring more, and lower-cost health care solutions to the marketplace.

---

Leadership and Integration

Too often governmental departments have their own, typically disconnected technology groups, who re-discover the same solutions individually at high cost.  Obama is proposing a new IT leadership group in Government that will span departments.   While it seems trivial, and obvious, it will probably have a broad impact on the effectiveness of our health-care and patient medical record sharing.

Bring Government into the 21st Century:

Barack Obama will use technology to reform government and improve the exchange of information between the federal government and citizens while ensuring the security of our networks. Obama believes in the American people and in their intelligence, expertise, and ability and willingness to give and to give back to make government work better.

  1. Obama will appoint the nation’s first Chief Technology Officer (CTO) to ensure that our government and all its agencies have the right infrastructure, policies and services for the 21st century. The CTO will ensure the safety of our networks and will lead an interagency effort, working with chief technology and chief information officers of each of the federal agencies, to ensure that they use best-in-class technologies and share best practices.
  2. The CTO will have a specific focus on transparency, by ensuring that each arm of the federal government makes its records open and accessible as the E-Government Act requires. The CTO will also focus on using new technologies to solicit and receive information back from citizens to improve the functioning of democratic government.
  3. The CTO will also ensure technological interoperability of key government functions. For example, the Chief Technology Officer will oversee the development of a national, interoperable wireless network for local, state and federal first responders as the 9/11 commission recommended. This will ensure that fire officials, police officers and EMTs from different jurisdictions have the ability to communicate with each other during a crisis and we do not have a repeat of the failure to deliver critical public services that occurred in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
  4. In the 21st century, our economic success will depend not only on economic analysis but also on technological sophistication and direct experience in this powerful engine of our economy. In an Obama administration, the government’s economic policy-making organizations and councils will include individuals with backgrounds in our technology industry.

If work on a secure, reliable, and responsive government computer network is done in parallel to a medical records initiative, it will speed and dramatically improve the likelyhood of a successful single-payer universal health care deployment and adoption.

---

A Coda

I'd like to end by discussing the end-goal, a single-payer system.  Let's not get caught-up and squabble with how fast we're going to get to our shared objective.  What's important is that we map out a road, and start walking.  When 40, 50, or 60% of an area's population is using this federal insurance plan, local practitioners will have an opportunity to reduce their paperwork burden substantially -- they can simply put up a sign:  "U.S Federal Healthcare or CASH ONLY".  When you start to see these signs, the marketplace itself will force single-payer -- there will be no need to legislate it.  

What what we should be doing now is looking for leadership that will provide has the vision, the openness, the trust, the funding, and the leadership to make it happen.   No More Talk.  

YES WE CAN!

--
Edit: Due to valid remarks in the thread I've renamed the diary from "BREAKING: Obama Proposes Universal Health Program" to "Obama: Towards a Single-Payer Health Program".  I also wanted to point out an excellent link by Tuscany:  PNHP's Single Payer resource.  How do we get there, from here?

Tags: Barack Obama, Primary, Health Care, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 395 comments

  •  tips (166+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Canadian Reader, Davinci, Donna Z, Chi, eugene, mattk, stephen weinstein, Christin, TaraIst, MarkC, marcvstraianvs, livosh1, lapis, CaptUnderpants, BleedingKnuckleLiberal, lns1122, Ramo, brillo, frisco, bumblebums, exNYinTX, angelmom, kissfan, rasbobbo, indybend, DAVE DIAL, ATL Dem, CoolOnion, highacidity, SlowNomad, mijita, scimitar, Zueda, samddobermann, peraspera, badlands, Shaniriver, ctsteve, Dreggas, David Boyle, dmsilev, Eddie C, psnyder, emmasnacker, oldjohnbrown, grannyhelen, noveocanes, fighting centrist, Markg8, renaissance grrrl, AbsurdEyes, beachmom, John in Chicago, TheJohnny, bwintx, Soviet Canuckistan, tomjones, valadon, Gowrie Gal, Big Tex, Mr Bula, liberal atheist, jhutson, IL dac, concerned, CarolynC967, Inland, LoneStarLefty, kyrol, Ambrosius, eaglecries, sofia, peteri2, sick of it all, blue jersey mom, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, Thaddaeus Toad, Rogneid, LisainNYC, begone, L Boom, gwilson, Fistgrrl, BlueInARedState, dharmafarmer, mr crabby, Dvalkure, earwulf, tbetz, MJ via Chicago, chrisRunner7, global citizen, max stirner, Potus2020, doinaheckuvanutjob, smari006, thewhiterabbit, JayGR, Statusquomustgo, phidda, pseudopod, GoldnI, DorothyT, recusancy, malik5470, dotsright, oscarsmom, jhecht, lordcopper, LV Pol Girl, CenterLeft, terryhallinan, westsidegirlygirl, DWG, holder, chicago jeff, jamesia, TheCorkBoard, thursdays child, electric meatball, JohnnyRook, roycej, Dem in the heart of Texas, swampus, LizzyPop, Cordwainer, East Village Blue, Peperpatch, crescentdave, elephantitis, wscrews, thetadelta, siamesewonka, Mardish, pamelabrown, kyril, TL Eclipse, echatwa, joy sinha, dan667, DixieDishrag, little liberal, junta0201, Obama2008, allie123, Grass, ryangoesboom, Pris from LA, bhagamu, El Yoss, Texanomaly, RNinOR, rockwilder, skjold, ManahManah, eltee, invertedeyes, chicago DEM, marcoto, vertexoflife, kmj2l, mrchumchum, markhaverty, MingPicket, saintsaetia, An American In

    Could we focus on technology for this diary?  For those who want to debate the question: "Is Hillary or Obama's plan truly Universal Health Care", I'd directly you to Robert Reich's overview and rant for this particularly stupid topic (see also [A], [B], [C], [D],  [E], [F], [G]).  Truly, Obama's supports a single payer system, albeit one arrived at gradually over time.  As I said above though, this is a minor difference compared to the magnitude of the change we're talking about here.  I also would like to apologize if I offended anyone previously, especially Hillary or Edwards supporters.  I have a very low tolerance for endlessly-repeated talking points.  While John Edwards is right on most of the issues, his rhetorical style seriously affects my capacity to consider his view.  Half of the time when our politicians speak (including Obama) I have visions of Monty Python's spam skit.

    •  Thank you for this fantastic diary, GUB (18+ / 0-)

      Very detailed and well argued.

      John Kerry: "The rubber stamp Republicans have now become the Roadblock Republicans"

      by beachmom on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 04:44:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Non-Universal ≠ Universal (13+ / 0-)

        You might want to fix the incorrect diary title.
        •  By your definition Germany does not have (35+ / 0-)

          universal healthcare, because it can't reach 100%.  Yet, by every definition of that term, Germany has universal healthcare.

          I like Obama's plan, and if he is president, it will pass.  Not in some pure world, but in the real pragmatic world, of, you know, having something pass Congress and being signed by the president.  Please remember who Ted Kennedy, the guy who made s-chip happen, endorsed.

          Lives will be saved, with or without your purity.

          John Kerry: "The rubber stamp Republicans have now become the Roadblock Republicans"

          by beachmom on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 04:55:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  he calls it universal (16+ / 0-)

            because it's no one is denied coverage, but in the other way it doesn't pass the test. for well documented reasons.  His plan is more palatable to those who don't wish to be forced to pay insurance.  It's the libertarian compromise, self-employed people don't have to. But all the stats indicate it's more expensive when it leaves out those less likely to use it.  So, what's new, what's breaking, sounds like same old same old.  

            Hillary - Alternative Energy

            by anna shane on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 05:23:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  thats what seems cool about (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              sacrelicious, Zoltan, crankyinNYC

              the whole re-insurance bit.  does that mean that if i break my leg - and don't have insurance - i could be penalized by having the option to pay back insurance that would be cheaper than the $18,000 hospital bill.  seems like leveraging the market to me...

              "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model which makes the existing model obsolete."-Buckminster Fuller

              by georg on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:20:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's what it means (0+ / 0-)

                why Clinton calls it an invitation to game the system. Obama says if insurance is affordable everyone will purchase it.  He's not being honest here, he's playing to those libertarian types who believe in individual responsibility not shared responsibility. I have an old friend from high school a libertarian who smokes weed openly and who manages to live on the 'underground' market. His late wife was in an accident and on life support  more than ten years, and that cost well into the  millions, paid for by taxpayers, and he's still against paying taxes. he lacks the gene for irony.  

                Hillary - Alternative Energy

                by anna shane on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:10:33 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i don't think i fully understand (0+ / 0-)

                  so how was it paid by taxpayers?

                  but that isn't what obama is proposing.  that old friend of yours would have had the option to pay back-insurance to retroactively cover his wife.  slowly but surely getting everyone in the system - until it is single-payer.  i think...

                  "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model which makes the existing model obsolete."-Buckminster Fuller

                  by georg on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 12:39:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I would love if we could have the Obama plan (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Chi, kyril

              right now.

              Why is it "same old, same old"?  We don't have universal access to healthcare right now.

              John Kerry: "The rubber stamp Republicans have now become the Roadblock Republicans"

              by beachmom on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:31:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  same old diary (0+ / 0-)

                this was posted in response to Partially Impartial's scholarly presentation of both sides.  for sure, any improvement would be better than Bush years.  The question here is why not say what they are, people can choose which they like best without having to told it's something it isn't.  

                Hillary - Alternative Energy

                by anna shane on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:06:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  its not worth arguing at this point when you can (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              anna shane

              see they are just flat out lying and misrepreseting his proposal so openly here calling it either univerisal or single payer!!!!! AS IF!

              the Budh-Cheney-Rove years really have been internalized all around when we see the blatant willfull distortion of the proposal to make it sound like everything it is not

              We Need a New Enlightenment.

              by Palladio on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 08:48:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Who cares about Germany? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            badger, BRockNYLA

            I don't, and I don't think I'm voting for Germany's president, either.

            "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 4100+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

            by Miss Blue on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 05:34:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Germany has mandates (4+ / 0-)

            Every employee of a german company is guaranteed health insurance, and to get it the employer and employee split the cost of insurance 50-50. There are subsidies to help those with low incomes, and there are public programs for those who are unemployed, and of course there are mandatory taxes on the rest of the nation to pay for it. So, there are mandates throughout the german system, and without this you would not get 99% insured.

            As far as I know, the less than 1% of the German population that does not have insurance are those who are very wealthy and do not work as an employee of a company (living off trust funds, perhaps some freelancers).

            This doesn't help Obama. Germany needs mandates to get universal health coverage. The only thing it lacks is an individual mandate regardless of employment.

            By the way, are you aware that we currently have a Medicare mandate? We are all forced to pay throughout our working lives, and then if we do not join Medicare immediately upon being eligible, we are penalized harshly. The idea is to make it never pay to avoid getting Medicare until you get sick, and it works. Over 99% of Medicare-eligibles subscribe to the program.

            Free riders must be contended with. It's remarkable how confidently this is dismissed by people who have never engaged the history of free riders in health insurance, or in economic circumstances generally.

            "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

            by jd in nyc on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 07:06:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  As far as I remember in Germany (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              jd in nyc

              people above a certain income have the choice to get private health insurance versus the publicly financed one. The difference between a private insurance and the publicly financed one is comparable to the difference of a Mercedes or BMW versus a VW or Audi or so. You have a little bit more comfort and choices while in the hospital and doctor's who perform the operations. You pay the premium in full and lose the 50 % your employer would pay for you, if you would chose to stay with  the publicly financed health insurance. I am pretty sure that any so-called rich person would refuse to buy any insurance. That is unheard of. Self-employed people have coverage in the publicly financed health insurance providers, just that they don't have the 50% co-pay, as they are employee and employer in one. I was not aware of the 1 % of Germans who have supposedly no health insurance. So, I wonder who they are.

              •  sorry, publicly financed is the wrong (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                jd in nyc

                description for how the mandatory health insurance providers in Germany are financed. By law the local health insurance providers have a mandate to offer the same coverage to any member that choses them. The premiums are set according to the status and income level of the insured, but each health insurance provider negotiate its own premiums and under their own local self-administration.  The health care providers funds come solely from the premiums paid by the insured and their employers.(50/50 split). Students pay all the same amount for their insurance no matter, which of the seven health care insurances the student choses. Unemployed or retirees have their health insurance premium paid by their unemployment insurance providers or are deducted from your federally mandated pension plans, which kick in once you are retired. They work somewhat like your SS and the premiums for health insurance is deducted from your monthly pension.

                In any case the principle for financing the mandated health insurance is based on solidarity, that is to say that the rich support the poor, the young the elderly, the singles the family. Therefore the premiums for each insured is regulated solely based on his income and status. The money is paid into a "sick fund" which is managed by the regulatory body of each health insurance provider. The regulatory body is elected in secret and free every six years.

                It is a system that provides universal coverage, but not a single payer system, nor a government-run system, as each of the eight health insurances are governed under their own regulatory entity, which is a mix of representatives of the insured and representatives of the employers. The system exists over 120 years and has worked well.

            •  I don't see where you're going with this (0+ / 0-)

              All of those statements you make about Germany apply to both Hillary and Obama's plans.  They both have an employer mandate. (To the extent that a tax substitute is still a mandate.) They both have subsidies.  They both have taxes.  The only difference is Hillary DOES have an individual mandate regardless of employment.

              So why is Germany's lack of free riders proof that Obama's plan will be crippled by free riders?  People without work insurance are in the same situation in either case.  In Germany, they buy the  insurance.  And in Germany they have an escape route to save them from having to break laws when they fall through the cracks.

              I don't have any big problem with Hillary's plan, but Germany is pretty good evidence that Obama's structure would work too.

            •  you are wrong. You get medicare on reaching age (0+ / 0-)

              1.  The only penalties are in medicae D -- the bushian Prescription drug part which has a penalty if you don't sign up UNLESS you have other creditable drug coverage -- ie still working and on a plan or a retirement plan with drug coverage -- then no penalty.

              But no penalty for Medicare A and B.

              Bush and McCain and their Social Security Privatization Plan.

              by samddobermann on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 02:53:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hmm (0+ / 0-)

                I just did a search to confirm this, and I can't find evidence that Parts A and B have a penalty. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me. If so, my bad.

                "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

                by jd in nyc on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:57:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  But they don't reach 100% (0+ / 0-)

              THAT is my point.  

              John Kerry: "The rubber stamp Republicans have now become the Roadblock Republicans"

              by beachmom on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:55:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Only the rich are outside (0+ / 0-)

                Everyone in lower and middle incomes is included, everyone who works for a company is included. It's only a very few wealthy folks who have the option to opt out. Is that what you're going to hang your hat on in criticizing the German system? Pretty weak.

                "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

                by jd in nyc on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:53:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Mandating people to buy insurance is nothing (36+ / 0-)

          like a single-payer system, and it will not help get us there.

          The biggest difference between Obama's plan and Hillary's is the mandate.  The mandate will not help lower costs by itself, but it will irritate people and set them against the government on the topic of healthcare.

          As I explain in another comment below, what will help move us to single-payer care is to open a non-profit plan to every American, and let it compete with for-profit insurance companies.  As the non-profit plan increases the number of people it covers, the for-profit insurance companies will begin to lose market share, because the large non-profit plan will be able to outcompete them on economies of scale and lower billing costs.  The for-profit companies will then start to provide better care and accept a smaller profit margin; that will already be a benefit to the American people, even before we get to universal care.  But ultimately, the non-profit plan will out-compete the for-profit plans; and then we will have achieved single-payer, non-profit healthcare.

          Honesty is still the best policy.

          by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 05:24:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Precisely! (18+ / 0-)

            Mandates have absolutely nothing to do with the road towards single payer.  They simply force everyone into a market in the hopes that it will reduce costs - that is not a fundamental change to the system.

          •  Exactly (14+ / 0-)

            If we want single payer, then we need to find a way to gracefully make the insurance company disappear. Guaranteeing them revenue and clients through mandates only entrench and confirm their role within the healthcare systems (since paying for care with cash will essentially be destroyed as an option to bypass the insurance companies).

            Of course it would be great if we could pass legislation to make the insurance companies go away immediately and implement single payer tomorrow, but our party will need at least 70-80 seats in the Senate. This wouldn't happen either without the "kumbaya" approach that the Clinton supporters like to ridicule, or as Dean puts it:

            "There’s no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn’t be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don’t have health insurance, either."

            •  sesquioxide--six oxygen atoms??? (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Chi, oldjohnbrown, sesquioxide, oscarsmom

              Or is it seven?  One way or another, it's an interesting handle.

              Oh, on your point, I totally agree, and I love the quote.  :)

              Honesty is still the best policy.

              by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 05:43:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OT, but ... (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Chi, samddobermann

                Just had to say: Oscar must be one hell of a kid.  After reading so much of oscarsdad and oscarsmom lately, he really has some excellent parents.

                OK, enough of the warm fuzzies.  Back to partisan griping for me.  :)

                •  Oscar is one hell of a parrot. (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Chi, The Gryffin, Mardish

                  He's an African Grey, and a good talker.  Along with Tiko, an eclectus parrot, and Mimi, our cat, they are the core of our immediate family.

                  I have two daughters from a previous marriage, who are with us part time.  They are two hells of kids, if that's the right plural form.  Sadly, they are both too young to vote this year.  Both of them are in high school, and are keeping track of the primaries, challenging their teachers who spout Republican views in class, and convincing their friends that it is cool to be involved in politics.

                  I couldn't be prouder!

                  Honesty is still the best policy.

                  by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:29:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  3 O Atoms in a Formula Unit (5+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Chi, samddobermann, oldjohnbrown, kyril, Grass

                3 O atoms with 2 (metallic) atoms make a sesquioxide ... an example:

                Fe_2O_3

                Realistically though, since you will never find it individually in a formula unit but rather in crystal form, you have something on the order of 10^24 O atoms per 150 g of the stuff.

                Now that's getting too nerdy. Back to bashing Bush ....

                •  Addendum (4+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Chi, samddobermann, oldjohnbrown, kyril

                  Sesqui = One and a half times

                  Hence 2 metallic atoms, 3 O atoms.

                •  So old chemistry buffs don't rust, they (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Chi, oldjohnbrown, kyril

                  sesquioxidize?  Only the ones in the same column as Fe, I suppose.  I'm sorry but I'm not done with the nerdiness.

                  Why is a prefix meaning six used in this case?  Is there something "hexavalent" about it?

                  Honesty is still the best policy.

                  by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:33:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh; 1.5x never mind. (4+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Chi, oldjohnbrown, sesquioxide, kyril

                    That comment was hidden while I was asking; sorry.

                    Honesty is still the best policy.

                    by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:33:56 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  More Nerdiness (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Chi, oldjohnbrown, oscarsdad

                    Transition metal atoms that can have valence of +3 can form a sesquioxide. As such, you can have Ti_2O_3 and Fe_2O_3, and Ti and Fe do not come from the same column. Physics makes it easy to judge by the column about what valences are "usual" for nontransition metal ions (e.g. Ca^2+, Mg^2+), but definitely not so for the transition metal elements, which can have multiple valence possiblities (Fe^2+, Fe^3+ [as in the case of Fe_2O_3]) ....

                    You can also have non-transition metal atoms making sesquioxides like Al_2O_3. I'm probably confusing the issue more than clarifying it. HA. =).

                    •  It's only what I deserve, for pushing for more (0+ / 0-)

                      nerdiness.

                      As I recall, when I took chemistry (in 1978, I think) there was ferrous oxide and ferric oxide, and in one of them Fe acted like it was Fe^2+ and one Fe^3+.  Al_2O_3 was similarly arcane to me.  It was about that time that I realized chemistry was just alchemy, all grown up.

                      I'm probably confusing the issue more than clarifying it. HA. =).

                      Ha is Hafnium, is it not?  ::=)

                      Honesty is still the best policy.

                      by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:39:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  I wish I had the confidence that you do... (0+ / 0-)

              Of course it would be great if we could pass legislation to make the insurance companies go away immediately and implement single payer tomorrow, but our party will need at least 70-80 seats in the Senate. This wouldn't happen either without the "kumbaya" approach that the Clinton supporters like to ridicule
              ---by sesquioxide

              I wish I had your confidence in Obama's negotiating skills and his "Kumbaya" approach as you put it, because in Illinois he buckled to the lobbyist wishes.

              Obama also stated in the transcripts that, "complete restructuring" after industry representatives "legitimately" raised fears that it would result in a single-payer system.

              In Illinois, Obama dealt with lobbyists
              But as candidate, he faults Clinton for ties

              By Scott Helman, Globe Staff  |  September 23, 2007

              Excerpt:

              The Health Care Justice Act, which Obama sponsored in the state Senate, grew out of work done by the Campaign for Better Health Care, an Illinois coalition of healthcare advocates, labor unions, and nonprofit organizations. The ostensible goal was simple: make affordable healthcare available to all Illinoisans. But the politics were anything but simple.

              On one side were healthcare advocates, eager to capitalize on the Democrats having won control of the General Assembly and the governor's office. On the other were most insurers, who worked vigorously to sink the bill. Obama was in the middle, trying to reconcile a range of agendas to get a viable plan signed into law.

              The bill originally called for a "Bipartisan Health Care Reform Commission" to implement a program reaching all 12.4 million Illinois residents. The legislation would have made it official state policy to ensure that all residents could access "quality healthcare at costs that are reasonable." Insurers feared that language would result in a government takeover of healthcare, even though the bill did not explicitly say that.

              By the time the legislation passed the Senate, in May 2004, Obama had written three successful amendments, at least one of which made key changes favorable to insurers.

              Most significant, universal healthcare became merely a policy goal instead of state policy - the proposed commission, renamed the Adequate Health Care Task Force, was charged only with studying how to expand healthcare access. In the same amendment, Obama also sought to give insurers a voice in how the task force developed its plan.

              Lobbyists praised Obama for taking the insurance industry's concerns into consideration.

              "Barack is a very reasonable person who clearly recognized the various roles involved in the healthcare system," said Phil Lackman, a lobbyist for insurance agents and brokers. Obama "understood our concern that we didn't want a predetermined outcome."

              In one attempt at a deal, Obama approached the Campaign for Better Health Care with insurers' concerns, asking if the group would consider a less stringent mandate than requiring the state to come up with a universal healthcare plan. The coalition decided not to bend, said Jim Duffett, the group's executive director.

              "The concept of the Health Care Justice Act was to bring the sides - the different perspectives and stakeholders - to the table," Duffett said. "In this situation, Obama was being a conduit from the insurance industry to us."

              Obama later watered down the bill after hearing from insurers and after a legal precedent surfaced during the debate indicating that it would be unconstitutional for one legislative assembly to pass a law requiring a future legislative assembly to craft a healthcare plan.

              During debate on the bill on May 19, 2004, Obama portrayed himself as a conciliatory figure. He acknowledged that he had "worked diligently with the insurance industry," as well as Republicans, to limit the legislation's reach and noted that the bill had undergone a "complete restructuring" after industry representatives "legitimately" raised fears that it would result in a single-payer system.

              "The original presentation of the bill was the House version that we radically changed - we radically changed - and we changed in response to concerns that were raised by the insurance industry," Obama said, according to the session transcript.

              http://www.boston.com/...

          •  I like hearing the word nonprofit (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Chi, badger, grannyhelen, Flint

            when discussing health care.  

            I have a few questions- The diarist explains that Obama will offer a plan "like" the plan a member of Congress gets, yet Hillary says that her administration will offer people the actual plan that a member of Congress gets.  

            Is Obama going to create a whole new system from scratch, or they actually both talking about the same and already existing system that all of our federal employees have access to?

            And who administers the current system?  Is is a function of our government, or is it contracted out?  Is it currently entirely non-profit?

            I apologize if those points were anwswered in the diary, I didn't see them.

            •  Good questions, only mediocre answers... (0+ / 0-)

              First, you can find out exactly what Obama is proposing at his website; here's the relevant page.  Please don't take my word for it, primary sources are always best.

              Is Obama going to create a whole new system from scratch, or they actually both talking about the same and already existing system that all of our federal employees have access to?

              I believe it is exactly the same system.

              And who administers the current system?  Is is a function of our government, or is it contracted out?  Is it currently entirely non-profit?

              That is a very good question and I am embarassed to say I don't know.  Medicare, I believe, is entirely non-profit.  If the one Obama is talking about making available isn't non-profit, it should be.

              Honesty is still the best policy.

              by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 07:05:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My answers are worse than I thought. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Chi

                No, the website I direct you to says it is an entirely new system, just similar to the one available to Congress.  My bad.

                It sounds like it would be run as a government program.  I don't believe it is legal for government programs to operate on a for-profit basis, so I believe it would be non-profit.  As I said somewhere, it could even operate at a loss (make up for losses through taxes).  Providing subsidies for people who can't afford healthcare is equivalent to operating at a loss; both proposals include that.

                If the current system is contracted out, then Obama's plan is non-profit, but Clinton's may not be.

                Honesty is still the best policy.

                by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 07:11:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, that is what I read it as too. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  grannyhelen

                  Hillary is proposing to leverage a system that is already in place and functioning, and simply extend the program to the citizenry at large, as a competing non-profit option to private health insurance.  Is that correct?

                  Obama is proposing to construct a new one, modelled on the one currently in operation for our federal employees, with a duplicate bureaucracy. Is this correct?  

                  And if so, why would we waste the energy of creating a duplicate system?  I'm afraid I don't grasp this part of the plan.  

                  Also, I'd like a real definition of "affordable."  I want numbers.  Edwards plan was very clear, it was workable, and it was well worked out.  I'm having a hard time pinning down the details of Obama's plan.  I know the diarist intended this to be a tech diary, but I'm afraid that doesn't work out as he is actually using this as an endorsement of Obama's overall plan.

                  •  At this point I'm not sure the existing system is (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Chi, Grass

                    non-profit.

                    Hillary is proposing to leverage a system that is already in place and functioning, and simply extend the program to the citizenry at large, as a competing non-profit option to private health insurance.  Is that correct?

                    Thank you for asking; you have caused me to go find out.  Here is the Office of Personnel Management's FEHB health care plan, the one Clinton is saying she will make available in Washington state, where I live.  The plan is different for each state, because it is NOT a non-profit governmental plan.  It is a menu of for-profit health insurance plans!

                    So Obama is going to create a non-profit system that provides equivalent benefits to the for-profit plan Hillary wants to make available.

                    In that case, I strongly prefer Obama's plan.

                    Honesty is still the best policy.

                    by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 08:02:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  anyone else want to weigh in? (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      oscarsdad

                      With more concrete information?

                      •  I am currently composing a diary on this... (3+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Chi, Great Uncle Bulgaria, mrchumchum

                        which I will publish tomorrow, probably between 8am and 9am PST.  I will include links to Clinton's description of her plan, Obama's description of his plan, and a link similar to the one just above.

                        Thanks for asking the question.  Tomorrow, in more "prime time", we should get a lot of discussion of this from both sides.  I hope you understand that I Want The Truth, no matter whether that benefits Hillary or Barack.  I want to vote for the right candidate, too.

                        Honesty is still the best policy.

                        by oscarsdad on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 08:28:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  This is a later critique by Klein (0+ / 0-)

                          I'd like to have answers to the issues that he raises in these critiques of Obama's health care plan.

                          His health care plan confirms the suspicions of both. He will be harmed by the specificity, even as his transformative rhetoric makes his actual plan seem dull and cautious in comparison. His is a plan of almosts. It is almost universal, without quite having the mechanisms to ensure nationwide coverage. It almost offers a public insurance option capable of serving as the seed of single-payer, but it is unclear who can enroll in it, and talks with his advisors suggest little enthusiasm or expectation that it will serve as a shining alternative to private insurance. It almost takes on the insurance industry, but asks for, rather than compels, their participation.

                          Make no mistake: There is much to praise in the plan. Obama has borrowed John Kerry's idea to have the government to absorb certain catastrophic costs, and while the details aren't spelled out, it's a promising concept. Insurers will no longer be able to discriminate based on preexisting conditions, and all children will have health coverage. If passed, our polity would be better, our people would be healthier, and our finances would be more secure.

                          Its failing, somewhat ironically, is a lack of audacity. It accepts the sectioning off of the market into the employed, the unemployed, the old, the young, and the poor. It does not consolidate the system into a coherent whole, preferring instead to preserve the patchwork quilt of programs and insurers that make health care so difficult to navigate. It does not sever the link between employment and health insurance, nor take a firm step towards single-payer, despite Obama's professed preference for such a system.

                          All the ingredients are in place for this to be a great plan -- a public insurance component, a commitment to universality, an understanding that coherence is better than fractiousness, a willingness to regulate the insurance industry -- but, in each case, at the last second, the policy is hedged before the fulfillment of its purpose. In this, Obama's plan is not dissimilar from Obama himself -- filled with obvious talent and undeniable appeal, sold with stunning rhetoric and grand hopes, but never quite delivering on the promises and potential. And so he remains the candidate of almosts. But as he told Morgan Miller back in March, there is time yet. And he is so very close.

                          http://www.prospect.org/...

                      •  Ezra Klein doesn't agree... (0+ / 0-)

                        Klein has been an outspoken critic of Obama's plan and there is definitely the need to get some answers on these issues. He contradicts the Author of this diary.

                        The Obama Health Care Plan

                        The Obama health care plan is out, and I'm still working my way through it, partially because some of the details don't yet seem to exist. But here's the gist: The plan is centered around a new regulatory agency called the National Health Insurance Exchange, which is both responsible for regulating the insurance industry (more on this in a moment) and administering the new public insurance program Obama's plan creates. That's a big deal -- one of the real tests of seriousness for the new plans is whether they create a public insurance program, and Obama's does. Unlike Edwards' and Jacob Hacker's plans, he doesn't use Medicare as the basis for the program, but instead creates an entirely new public insurer.

                        Here's the catch: The Obama plan does not set the public and private plans in competition with each other, as the Edwards plan does. Rather, the best way to think of it is as a two-track plan. The first track extends the new public program to the self-employed, small businesses, and the uninsured. In other words, the public plan is open to those who are currently disadvantaged in the insurance market -- it is not a new insurance market unto itself. That said, if it proves popular and effective, it would be trivial to expand it in the future, letting all businesses, or all individuals, buy in.

                        SNIP!

                        But I'm actually less concerned about that (mandates) than certain other features of the plan. All the information I've got is missing a few key details which will decide if it's a very good plan, or a very unrealistic one. Here, for now, are the unanswered questions:

                        1) Who can participate in the public option? It says small businesses at one point, then suggests that all businesses can buy in if they so choose. If the public insurer is confined to currently disadvantaged groups, it will be considerably less transformative than if it's an across-the-board option. And how it's funded, how much premiums are, and what percentage of payroll employers would pay in decides how likely it is to emerge a viable alternative option. But for now, this doesn't look like backdoor single-payer in quite the way the Edwards or Hacker plans do.

                        2) Is the insurance exchange mandatory? The plan is unclear on this, too, but it's the crucial point. If all insurers have to register and submit to the exchange's guidelines to remain in business, then it can actually reform the industry. If participation is optional, the plan will fail, just as a similar plan failed in Oregon in the early-90s. I have trouble believing the Obama team would leave this up to insurer goodwill, incentives, or even access to large markets, but it's possible, and no real evaluation of the plan's chances can be offered till we achieve clarity on that point.

                        3) How do we achieve universality through it? Why is the plan better off without provisions for universality from the start? And what are the subsidy levels? Until we know how much premiums will actually be, we can't even get the actuaries to estimate what take-up will be.

                        http://ezraklein.typepad.com/...

                        •  I talked to a staffer today (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          samddobermann

                          and she explained that Obama's plan doesn't exclude anyone for the public option. In particular, the plan doesn't create a 2-track system.  It was worded so that people didn't think that their private insurance provided by their company would be replaced - it was cautious wording, meant as illustration and not as a restriction.  I expressed the importance of a clarification on this point, I hope that the Obama campaign produces written clarification soon.

                          Speaking of which, there is another question that I had which I asked.  The "public" healthcare option doesn't explicitly say that it would be administered federally -- as I understand, the program that congress has is private.  The staffer I spoke said that this was an unwritten assumption everyone had that it was going to be publicly administered, she said she'd absolutely confirm that and get back with me.

                          I wasn't able to get answers for more detailed questions, the average person answering calls there knows about as much as us on most issues.  However, I wonder if Ezra Klein even bothered to call before writing his paper -- which, to me, seem filled with unjustified assumptions.

                          •  Klein specifically states (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            Great Uncle Bulgaria

                            That he did call staffers and ask the questions. I left this paragraph out and it talks about the candidates being deliberately vague on purpose.

                            There has been, in recent weeks and months, a robust debate over whether the Democrats should offer policy details. This conversation has operated on two levels. The first, explicit, level, is a political argument over whether presidential candidates are well-served by specificity, or at least whether it should be demanded of them. The second level, less often expressed, is really about Obama. Few are looking to Clinton for details, as her public record is so well-known, and her policy commitments so lengthily expressed. Edwards, for his part, has unleashed a remarkable torrent of policy specifics, hoping to brand himself the candidate of ideas. It is Obama who has remained a relative cipher, the interplay of his ideology and political instincts opaque. His supporters appreciate his willingness to be expansive, to avoid labels, to evade the traps of specificity. His skeptics demand details, protesting that the Democratic base deserves to know whether he was a truly transformative candidate or merely an inspiring speaker.

                            http://www.prospect.org/...

                            As to Klein's attitude... yeah he has one and it isn't pro-Obama exactly.

                            As to his criticism of Obama's plan... a lot of it seems to be fairly objective and have a factual basis.

                            As an Edwards supporter I'm trying to make up my mind on who to vote for on Tuesday. I have problems with both Hillary and Obama, but I will choose when I've collected more facts.

                            Edwards shot out highly detailed plans and stated what he was for in no uncertain terms... he didn't equivocate but answered questions directly.

                            Hillary and Obama both lagged behind him and more of less triangulated their response to him, sometime coopt his plan directly and other times adopting much of his presentation with a watered down version of his proposal.

                            You called a staffer and that's good, but let Obama put it in writing as you suggest. I've had lots of Obama supporters making claims about his plans that turned out to be completely contradictory to what he has released in print or stated in a speech.

                            •  i called again today (0+ / 0-)

                              and after a good 15 minutes of double-checking she came back and said that the plan is: (a) administered federally, and (b) open to everyone.  She explicitly said that you could enroll in the plan even if you're employer offered group coverage that you turn down.  I asked her to put it in the fact check, and she said that they will -- they are just swamped.

                    •  Hmmm, if you can find confirmation that (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Chi, oscarsdad

                      Obama's plan is non-profit, then I think it is clear his has the greater opportunity for achieving a single payer UHC. At the moment I couldn't find anything on Obama's site; I think someone needs to contact the campaign to clear this up.

                      A non-profit plan will clearly be able to compete better with for profit insurance companies.

                    •  Hillary's plan offers three options (0+ / 0-)

                      If you have a plan you like, you keep it. If you want to change plans or aren't currently covered, you can choose from dozens of the same plans available to members of Congress, or you can opt into a public plan option like Medicare. And working families will get tax credits to help pay their premiums.

                      http://www.hillaryclinton.com/...

                      1. Keep your current plan if you like it.

                      .

                      1. Choose from the same plans available to congress.

                      .

                      1. "opt into a public plan option like Medicare."

                      Medicare is not a for profit plan and where you get that her plan is a for profit plan when she has a clear statement on her site is beyond me.

                      To represent only one of her options as her total plan is dishonest!

                •  You care to source that... (0+ / 0-)

                  If the current system is contracted out, then Obama's plan is non-profit, but Clinton's may not be.
                  ---oscarsdad

                  I need to see a source to believe that one.

          •  Finally, someone who understands health care! (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Chi, Great Uncle Bulgaria, mrchumchum

            what will help move us to single-payer care is to open a non-profit plan to every American, and let it compete with for-profit insurance companies.  As the non-profit plan increases the number of people it covers, the for-profit insurance companies will begin to lose market share, because the large non-profit plan will be able to outcompete them on economies of scale and lower billing costs.  The for-profit companies will then start to provide better care and accept a smaller profit margin; that will already be a benefit to the American people, even before we get to universal care.  But ultimately, the non-profit plan will out-compete the for-profit plans; and then we will have achieved single-payer, non-profit healthcare.

            I was really beginning to think that this was some kind of stoner site until I saw this post!

            Whew! Sanity and an informed individual!

          •  Bingo! (with one caveat) (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Great Uncle Bulgaria

            what will help move us to single-payer care is to open a non-profit plan to every American, and let it compete with for-profit insurance companies.

            Exactly!  Now, why can't politicians realize the obvious.

            I do have one major caveat.  This new plan must not be the plan for high-risk people.  Although everybody claims that they will require insurance companies to offer everybody insurance, all plans are remarkable scant on ensuring that insurance companies don't make their plans unattractive to high-risk groups.

            If the reform is structured to make this new plan represent all of America instead of just high-risk America, this is the way to single-payer.  Otherwise, its a way to preclude single-payer, and also kill Medicare, as the public plan becomes increasingly expensive.

        •  Saying it doesn't make it true (8+ / 0-)

          You are absolutley right.  This post is misleading from title to substance..

          Here's some substance which I posted in another pro Obama diary. The Obamanauts seem oblivious to evidence, reason, logic or deduction. Below is data....I am sure you will all act like good little monkeys (hear no evil etc....)

          This is today from Paul Krugman's blog. Below is a sophisticated computer simulation about different health care outcomes.....if you think computer simulations work to track global warn=ming than it ought to work to tell the truth about mandates.  And why Obama is wrong....very very wrong and Edwards and Clinton are very right.

          Jonathan Gruber, one of the country’s leading health care economists — and someone not affiliated with any of the campaigns — has a new paper on covering the uninsured. He makes use of a detailed simulation model that he’s been developing for several years to assess alternative strategies.
          snip about Bush style tax credits...does not work of course.

          But the big conclusion, relevant to current debates, is on the role of mandates. Gruber compares a program of mandate-less subsidies to help people pay for insurance — broadly similar to the Obama plan — with a program that combines subsidies with mandates — broadly similar to the Edwards and Clinton plans.

          The table below summarizes the key results. The mandate-less plan covers only about half the uninsured. The plan with mandates gets almost everyone, at an additional cost of $22 billion — about $1,000 per additional person covered.
          Next time you hear someone telling you that the dispute over mandates is unimportant, remember this table.
          I copy the table by hand as I don't have the technology skills to know how to get a hosting platform

          Without mandates

          Reduction of number of uninsure    23 million
          Cost                               102 million
          Cost per newly insured             4400 dollars

          With Mandates

          Reduction in number of insured     45 million
          Cost                               124 billion
          Cost per newly insured             2700 dollars

          Yes, mandates matter and you can engage in all the obfuscation you want and all the black is white you want.

          Obama himself admitted when he issued his plan that it wasn't universal. He limited it for political reasons to make it palaltable to Republicans.  When it became clear that it was a big no no...it also revealed too much about his inadequate priorities....Then he didn't change the plan, he just first dissembled and then he misled and this diary is the culmination of untruthfulness.

          •  If I buy a $30 lunch (0+ / 0-)

            it will cost me $30.

            If I and two other people buy me a $30 lunch, it will cost each of us $10.

          •  I recommened your comment but (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            sacrelicious, The Gryffin, mrchumchum

            you could of made your point better without the "Obamanauts".

            It's like Apple and Microsoft. Without Apple, Microsoft wouldn't have anything to copy. Edwards is the idea factory. -demwords

            by Jiminy Cricket on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:46:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are right I rescind it (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Flint

              however there is in this incaarnation of Dkos a lack of civility and respect for others viewpoints.  And the Obama supporters are extraoridinarily free to troll rate comments that make them uncomfortable.

              As I have said many times I've been here a very long time and until this year and this race I have never ever been troll rated for disagreeing with people.  And that happens in these diaries all the time.

              sometimes I am afraid to post because of just that gang mentality.

          •  Computer Simulation (8+ / 0-)

            Hm, you start off by calling us Obamanauts and then claim we obfuscate? Well, let me engage you.

            I don't know how much you know about computer simulations, but they are all about assumptions and their governing equations. Citing results from them without discussing the assumptions is extremely dangerous and intellectually dishonest. So let's do as you say, talk substance (which you didn't since you didn't discuss assumptions) and look at the paper mentioned in Krugman's blog. Of course reading the actual paper requires an (academic) subscription, but let's begin by saying that this paper is a "working paper"