Daily Kos

More about Obama's lack of substance.

Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:56:01 AM PDT

In my previous entry I discussed, briefly, why Hillary Clinton's charge that Barack Obama is all fluff and no substance is true (but falling on deaf ears).  Now I'll go into why it's true.

I'll do this by going to town on some of the issues posted on his web site, asking some hard questions about how Mr. Obama intends to bring about this change he keeps talking about.  Today I'll focus on his web site's Issues page on health care coverage.

Coverage for all.

  1. Guaranteed eligibility. No American will be turned away from any insurance plan because of illness or pre-existing conditions.

This is a bit vague, isn't it?  How does Obama expect to cover all Americans, when his plan does not include mandates and doesn't cover everyone?

Obama is being misleading when he says his proposal would "cover everyone." It would make coverage available to all, but experts we consulted estimate that 15 million to 26 million wouldn't take it up unless required to do so.

Not that this lets Hillary Clinton off the hook, by the way.  The same source writes:

Clinton stretches things a bit, too. Even her plan – which, unlike Obama’s, includes a mandate for individuals to get insurance – would leave out a million people or perhaps more, depending on how severe the penalties would be for those who don't comply. She won't say how her mandate would be enforced, but has said that she was open to the possibility of garnishing wages.

But I digress.  FactCheck.org writes:

Obama requires only that children have coverage and that dependents be covered under their parents' insurance up to age 25.

Paul Krugman -- whose biggest issue is health care reform, and whose analyses of the candidates' plans asks whether they stand a chance of working -- writes:

An Obama-type plan would also face the problem of healthy people who decide to take their chances or don’t sign up until they develop medical problems, thereby raising premiums for everyone else. Mr. Obama, contradicting his earlier assertions that affordability is the only bar to coverage, is now talking about penalizing those who delay signing up — but it’s not clear how this would work.

And:

Mr. Gruber finds that a plan without mandates, broadly resembling the Obama plan, would cover 23 million of those currently uninsured, at a taxpayer cost of $102 billion per year. An otherwise identical plan with mandates would cover 45 million of the uninsured — essentially everyone — at a taxpayer cost of $124 billion. Over all, the Obama-type plan would cost $4,400 per newly insured person, the Clinton-type plan only $2,700.

So Obama's plan does not offer universal coverage.  The only way to ensure that every American is covered would be to go with single-payer health care.  HR 676 does this, but no major politician wants to even try to go for this.  Which brings me to my next point.  How does Obama intend to get this passed, when he won't even say how he'll get the opposition to make concessions?  Or whether or not he's inclined to?  Obama's web site doesn't say, and neither does he.

Obama often speaks of bipartisanship on the campaign trail, of getting Democrats and Republicans to shelve their differences and work together.  If it's the same "bipartisanship" he showed in the Illinois state senate, where he worked to gut health care reform on behalf of the insurance lobbyists, then his entire argument is based on a lie -- an empty promise of reform that he has no intention of keeping, because he has neither the will or the courage.

It's a major stumbling block, and probably the first one that shall ultimately kill all hopes of health care reform.  When Obama talks about the issue, he doesn't really address how he'll bring his reforms about -- except to bring everyone to the table and get them to play nice.  But he never explains how he intends to accomplish this.

It is no secret that the GOP today is a lock-step political party.  This is a result of movement conservativism's maintenance of iron discipline within the party ranks.  Those who follow orders see benefits, even when it leads to their removal from public office.  For example, Rick Santorum was handed a cushy job at a fascist think tank following his re-election defeat in 2006.  By Contrast, moderate Republican Lincoln Chafee -- who often voted against his own party -- ended up facing a stiff primary battle that left him weakened going into the general election.  And the RNC refused to support him.  So he, too, lost.  What's more, rather than find himself with a high-paying job, he managed to get a year-long teaching position at the Watson Institute for International Studies at Brown University.

This is the sort of rigid disciplinary system within the Republican Party that Obama must overcome.  But he's given no indication of how he expects to accomplish this task.  Furthermore, the insurance and pharmaceutical companies have no incentive to meet a new, Democratic president half way.  Why should they make concessions, when they know all they need do is get their bought politicians in both major parties to kill any health care reform, no matter how tepid, and keep everything they want?  Looking at Obama's web site, I find nothing that indicates he even acknowledges the problem, to say nothing of how he'll address it.

This is the emptiness inherent in Obama's campaign.  A lot of fine-sounding rhetoric, a lot of obvious statements about what needs to be done, but little or nothing on how to actually accomplish anything substantive.  And this is just the first bullet point in Obama's plan.  I haven't even touched the others yet.

Tags: 2008, 2008 Elections, president, Barack Obama, Health Care, Empty Rhetoric, No Substance (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 144 comments

  •  Tip Jar. (2+ / 1-)

    Recommended by:
    ThirstyGator, votermom
    Hidden by:
    Inland

    How long do you think it'll be before the Obamamaniacs start in on me?

    •  Probably not too long... (27+ / 0-)

      ...since you simultaneously attack the substance of his plan while saying it has none.

      If you think his plan is wrong, that's fine.  But don't say it has no substance when it does.

      And don't pretend Barack Obama is soft on process, when in fact he's talked more about it than any other candidate currently or formerly in this race.  The mantra of his campaign has been that we need to change how things are done in Washington - and he has very specific proposals to change that, many of which (like Exec Branch ethics, transparency reforms, and the technology plan) can be implemented unilaterally.  He's talked about opening the negotiations to the public, broadcasting them on C-Span.  He's been more serious about changing how we get things done than any other candidate currently or formerly in this race.  

      Just because you don't see that on his health care page, doesn't mean it isn't there; for him, transparency and ethical, open government are the beginning of reform, and he's been talking about that since long before he got into the race.

      Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

      by mistersite on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:05:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Record time. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        votermom

        Anyway, here's where you're wrong.  You mistake policy goals for actual substance.  It's one thing to state a goal.  It's quite another to state -- even briefly -- how you intend to reach it.  Right now Americans are looking for assurances that whoever becomes president shall know how to accomplish reform.  I don't see how Obama is going to get anything done if he doesn't resort to the necessary partisanship required to break the GOP's solid disciplinary structure.  And he's made it quite plain he has no intention of doing that.  So how is he going to achieve health care reform, based on a plan that doesn't cover anyone, and which doesn't say how he can achieve the meager reforms he's seeking?  Obama's had more than a year to work this out.  This late in the game, that's just pitiful, and there's no excuse for it.

        •  so you set an impossible standard (12+ / 0-)

          which is quite different from a "substance" argument.

          I can make the same argument against any candidate, none of whom have laid out any legislative strategy other than vague platitudes about "working" or "fighting."

          I can say "Hillary Clinton will not be able to actually get anything passed." That's not really an argument. That's a speculative assertion about political realities, and you're blatantly applying a double standard to Senator Obama.

        •  Please explain what you mean by: (10+ / 0-)

          the necessary partisanship required to break the GOP's solid disciplinary structure.

          By being more partisan, we'll force them to be less partisan?

          Why do you think such nonsense is a good definition of "substance?"  What candidate is out there mapping out their legislative strategies in advance?

          Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower

          by Pegasus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:13:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  How is that any different (5+ / 0-)

          from Hillary? What has she said about how she'll implement all those policy goals that Obama hasn't? All I've heard from her is "I'll fight". That doesn't seem any more  substantive than Obama's "I'll bring people together."

          Clinton doesn't exactly have the best track record of getting healthcare reform pushed through congress. How is her current plan somehow more likely to defeat opposition when her mandates add extra annoyance the libertarian wing of said opposition?

          •  The only difference is that the diarist (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil

            Is blatantly pro-Clinton and has on the optics to show one side of the argument but not the other.  For example, the diarist fails to see how an experience argument made now by Clinton on Obama actually undermines her case in the general election when she will invariably compare her experience to McCain.  What, suddenly experience in DC won't matter when a barely two-term Senator (I'm speaking in years, not because of a close election) will go up against a four-term Senator.

            Scorched earth... no need to think ahead to the next contest, knowing what you say now will matter and that everyone is listening now.  Clinton will climb that hill when she reaches it, right?  No.

            Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

            by BasharH on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  See, that's the problem with your assumption. (6+ / 0-)

          You assume that partisanship will be necessary to break the GOP's solid disciplinary structure; I'm not so sure that's the case.

          The most likely scenario this year is that we'll pick up somewhere around 5 seats in the Senate and retain our majority in the House.  This would give us a 55-45 advantage in the Senate, including kicking Lieberman out as we ought to, and a clear majority in the House.  We'd need to pick off only five Republicans to get cloture - and I think we could probably get that done, especially given that we're going to be in complete control of the agenda in a time when the wind is at progressives' backs.  By either strongarming or gladhanding (or giving a little in negotiation, which is how this process works) just a few Senators from the other side, with a clear mandate from the people for reform that both sides can see, a President with complete control over the agenda and significant rhetorical power could get things done without having to resort to lockstep partisanship.

          Moreover, that you decry Obama's not having a clear legislative plan brings up the question: What's Hillary Clinton's legislative plan?  How is she going to break a Republican structure that would likely be even stronger against her than it would be against Obama?  How does she get cloture in the Senate - particularly as we're seeing evidence that her coattails won't be nearly as long as Sen. Obama's, and thus she might have less of a majority to work with?  What's her plan?

          Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

          by mistersite on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:22:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't count on it. (0+ / 0-)

            You first need two things to make your scenario work: five Republicans stupid enough to go against their party's leadership, and enough Democrats to go along as well.  Sixty-seven senators voted against the Dodd amendment, which would have stripped telecomm immunity from the final bill.  These are the Democrats who stood in support of immunity:

            Bayh (D-IN)
            Carper (D-DE)
            Conrad (D-ND)
            Feinstein (D-CA)
            Inouye (D-HI)
            Johnson (D-SD)
            Landrieu (D-LA)
            Lincoln (D-AR)
            McCaskill (D-MO)
            Mikulski (D-MD)
            Nelson (D-FL)
            Nelson (D-NE)
            Pryor (D-AR)
            Rockefeller (D-WV)
            Salazar (D-CO)
            Stabenow (D-MI)
            Webb (D-VA)

            Add Clinton, who couldn't even be bothered to show up to vote, as complicit by way of cowardice.  That's seventeen alleged Democrats who capitulated to the GOP in the Senate.  In order for your scenario to work, you need to get every single member of the caucus to go along with a Democratic president, and five Republicans, in a 55-45 chamber.  We can't even get forty-nine; we only got thirty-two on this one.

            This doesn't even address the House of Representatives, where the Bush dogs join with lock-step Republicans at every turn.  So what shall Obama do to rectify this, as president, without being a partisan and encouraging his own party to be partisan in the legislature?

            •  You think a freshly elected president (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              carolinadreamer, Tonedevil, BasharH

              won't be able to get his own (majority) Senate to vote along with him or her in lockstep?  Laff.

              How long have you been paying attention to politics?

              Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower

              by Pegasus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:59:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Clinton couldn't. (0+ / 0-)

                What makes you think Obama could?  I've been following politics since I was old enough to understand what politics was -- about 1988 or so, give or take a few months.

                •  You mean on NAFTA? (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Tonedevil

                  Pray tell, what was the major Democratic initiative from '93-94 that would be analogous to HC reform this year?  There isn't one.  Clinton didn't take advantage of the Dem Congress, for the short time it existed, because he wasn't interested in advancing a truly Democratic agenda.

                  And then he lost Congress to an ascendent group of movement conservatives, who are now in relative disarray.

                  Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower

                  by Pegasus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:28:48 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And Obama won't take advantage, either. (0+ / 0-)

                    I see no indication that he'll put health care reform on the front burner, should he manage to become president.  Just like Bill Clinton before him, Obama will drag his feet until the GOP comes back to power in 2010 -- assuming it doesn't do that this year.

                    •  Blah blah blah, answer the question. (0+ / 0-)

                      If you want to draw these parallels between Obama and Clinton, you need to back it up with some substance.  What was Clinton's analogue to this cycle's push for health care?

                      This election will be primarily about issues: Iraq and health care.  It's hard to argue, then, that Obama isn't making it a front burner issue.

                      But hey, maybe after another hour you can catch me not checking my comment history for replies, and then you can get in the last word.  FYI, I go home from work around 5:30 ET, and generally don't get on dKos in the evening.  So that'll have to be your window. :/

                      Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower

                      by Pegasus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 12:46:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  You assume that the present Senate rules (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Pegasus

              Will be in effect after 2008.  Right now, it's because we have to kowtow to Lieber-dork, but after a five or six seat Senate win this November )and that's conservatively speaking) and further gains in the House (have you seen the popular vote counts for the presidential primary contests; have you seen how excited our electorate is compared to Republican'ts) we will have a year at least to pass meaningful legislation -- and probably even longer.

              But I am assuming the Senate rules change.  Let's see if they do once the new Congress is in session in 2009.  It will be back to majority votes, and we will return to C-SPAN images of Republicans filibustering legislation that our eloquent President says he has supported, and has the support of the majority of the people.

              Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

              by BasharH on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  One word: filibuster. (0+ / 0-)

                You need sixty votes to break one, and I guarantee you that you need both a sixty-seat majority and enough Democratic party discipline to end one.  Given how many DINOs betray their constituents on crucial votes such as FISA, Bush's nominees, and so forth, it's far from likely that we'll have such a working majority.  There is no evidence to suggest that a presidential race has any significant effect on down-ticket races.  You're basing your argument on assumptions that certain things shall happen, when in fact there is no guarantee that we'll end up with the sort of majority you hope for.

                This is what I was blogging about yesterday, about getting your hopes up so high that they come crashing down once the Big Letdown occurs.  The saddest part is that you'll keep on making the same excuses for failure you've been making, and learn nothing.

                •  Doomsday... (0+ / 0-)

                  I agree, you do need 60 votes in the Senate to break a filibuster and I admit that our Democratic Senators haven't exactly exemplified the ideal of a progressive caucus.  However, I think winning five or six Senate seats this fall is quite reasonable.  Virginia looks very promising, along with New Hampshire, Colorado, Minnesota, and New Mexico.  If you add in Maine and Oregon, you're looking at a pretty good haul of seats.

                  And let's remember, in 2006, there was even a smaller chance that we would get control of the Senate, needing six new seats with our candidates running against incumbents.  This year, there are a number of open seat opportunties.  I am not guaranteeing victory... we're going to have to work.  But I see no reason to do what you are doing -- predicting doomsday and how our government has failed us forever.

                  It will be a long time before we can get a caucus made up of over 60 Democrats in the Senate.  If you want to wait until then before passing legislation, that's fine.  But I think a caucus of members in the range of 55 or so seats is pretty good.

                  If you are waiting for a guarantee of a good thing happening, I'm sorry to say you'll be waiting for the rest of your life.  There are no guarantees.  Just like it is not guaranteed, as you so happily appeal to readers here, that Obama will fail as a President:

                  This is the emptiness inherent in Obama's campaign.  A lot of fine-sounding rhetoric, a lot of obvious statements about what needs to be done, but little or nothing on how to actually accomplish anything substantive.

                  You seem to hold everyone else above the standard you hold for yourself.  Please guarantee for me that Clinton or McCain will do a better job.  It appears you think that argument only does well against Obama.

                  Having hope is a powerful thing.  Some of our hopes won't be fulfilled... that's the whole idea of it all.  You've lost the hope, which is fine.  I can't say there has been too much to hope for the last 7 years, but to project Bush onto any one of the candidates running now is... well, it's not productive.  And because you don't see the potential for gains in Congress this election, given the state of the country, proves to me that you are totally shut off from reality.

                  Here's hoping that you have set your own bar for success so low that an Obama presidency exceeds all your expectations.  But I'm not holding my breath.  Good luck to you.

                  Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

                  by BasharH on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 12:20:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Kepping you grounded, not warning of doom. (0+ / 0-)

                    You're attributing to me the notion that I'm waiting for a guarantee.  You're the one assuming that we'll gain the sort of Democratic majority needed to pass legislation.  Considering how many new Democrats in Congress stabbed us in the back after we helped get them elected, I'd rather focus my energies on getting actual Progressives into office as opposed to pinning all our hopes on a prima donna candidate who can't deliver on anything.

                    •  You are correct... (0+ / 0-)

                      I am assuming that we will make gains in both chambers of Congress.  But an assumption and a guarantee are different, as you surely know.  I gave no such guarantee either.

                      However, you appear to be guaranteeing that Obama will not do anything:

                      I'd rather focus my energies on getting actual Progressives into office as opposed to pinning all our hopes on a prima donna candidate who can't deliver on anything

                      That sounds like you are guaranteeing something.  And you will only be satisfied when someone gives you a guarantee of success, if anything can satisfy you at all.  Doesn't seem like it to me.

                      You also seem to be very confident that even electing progressives into office would give us some legislative successes.  I agree that the odds of success in governing the country would increase with more progressives in Congress, but I don't see how you help that cause by disparaging the putative Presidential candidate.

                      Maybe it's just a difference in language between us, and perhaps its wiser for everyone to wait for a presidential candidate to actually do something and follow through on their campaign promises.  However, in order to do that, a candidate must first win the election and then work with Congress.  That's a bit too much to ask of any of the candidates, not just Obama.  So, at the moment, we can look at what they've previously done (which obviously does not impress you) and how they will manage the White House.

                      You may think we can't see how someone runs the country by how they conduct their campaign, but I definitely do.  I knew Bush was a piece of crap, but unfortunately for me more people thought he should stay.  I'm sure many of those people now regret their votes.  As for Obama, I have given no guarantee that he will do a great job in the White House.  It's just every individual's feelings for a candidate, in the absence of other information.  But I do know he can inspire and he has a vision that goes beyond policy proscriptions and bureaucratic details.  Those things are important, yes, but a candidate can get help with those things.  What a President shouldn't need help with is the ability to make a case for some piece of legislation they want passed through Congress.  To me, Clinton rubs people the wrong way.  McCain is as fake as can be.  Obama is inspiring, which means he has a slightly longer fall ahead of him if he cannot deliver on the goods.  I'm willing to give him his chance to prove he can.

                      Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

                      by BasharH on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 03:35:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  And by the way... (7+ / 0-)

          ...your attempt to martyr yourself with "Obamamaniacs start[ing] in on me" is extraordinarily problematic, as it insults those who would criticize your diary on proper grounds as cultists who attack you for attacking their candidate.  The attempt by you and other Obama opponents on this site to paint any argument with your reasoning for opposing Obama as a cultist or as mob rule is as disingenuous as it is deleterious to real dialogue and debate.  Please apologize for your comment and refrain from such characterizations in the future.

          Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

          by mistersite on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:32:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You're not even worth it. (4+ / 0-)

      I hope you enjoy your 15 comments of fame.

    •  The instant you pull this shit... (5+ / 0-)

      Obamamaniacs you have proven your intention to provoke a fight.

      This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

      by Tonedevil on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:23:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  how cute (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      carolinadreamer, Tonedevil, Pegasus

      a damned if you don't agree with me comment.  kind of pre-emptive, isn't it?  I'm sure you'll have a "damned if you don't" response for me. bit I really detest this kind of set up comment.  You're immediately contemptuous and dismissive with anyone who might take issue with all mighty you.  And that says plenty about you- and it ain't complimentary.

      When you sugar it all off, it's still a hit diary.  The shorter version would simply be "neener, neener, Obama's an empty suit."

      Oh, and you're wrong about Lincoln Chafee.  The reason he was defeated is because he refused to switch to independent in one of the bluest states in the country.  And yes, the RNC did indeed support him.  

      Right back at you with the contempt.  Your dishonesty diserves it.

      two cheers for democracy

      by ClaryinVT on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:46:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The big logical fallacy of the Clinton camp is: (28+ / 0-)

    if Obama has no substance, how is she having arguments attacking his substance, whether it be healthcare, energy policy, tax reform, etc.?  

    "There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible. But in the end they always fall. Think of it. Always." -- Mahatma Gandhi

    by duha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:58:24 AM PDT

  •  You're saying it's true that he has no substance (17+ / 0-)

    because you don't like the details of his health care plan?  That really makes little sense.

    You might mosey on by this diary.  The "no substance" meme is as sure a sign as anything that you just aren't paying much attention, or that you hope others aren't.

    Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower

    by Pegasus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:58:36 AM PDT

  •  Reading material (10+ / 0-)

    Read this.

    Then this.

    Then get back to me about "lack" of substance.

    "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

    by bawbie on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:59:44 AM PDT

  •  wow, you totally misunderstand the issue (10+ / 0-)

    Mandates have nothing to do with "eligibility."

    Preventing insurance companies from turning buyers down on the basis of illness or "preexisting conditions" is a separate issue altogether and an integral part of both plans.

    It's not vague at all. You're just looking for something that isn't there.

    And this isn't an example of "lack of substance," it's a disagreement over policy.

    I agree with you that only single-payer offers universal coverage, but you're line of attack (coupled with your silly hyperbole) misses the point.

    Again, in your one-sided effort to paint Obama as lacking substance or capacity, you seem to ignore the relevant issue of the political reality before us.

  •  And, gawd, what a crock: (13+ / 0-)

    This is the emptiness inherent in Obama's campaign.  A lot of fine-sounding rhetoric, a lot of obvious statements about what needs to be done, but little or nothing on how to actually accomplish anything substantive.

    Find me any candidate's website that has legislative strategies mapped out.  Go ahead, I'll be here waiting.

    What a ridiculous double standard to apply to Obama.

    Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower

    by Pegasus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:01:10 AM PDT

  •  Hmmn (8+ / 0-)

    So Hillary's plan "covers" everyone? Or is it that it requires everyone to GET health insurance. That's like saying car insurance covers everyone...

    But beyond getting into that particular debate about mandates, to say that Obama's plan "doesn't cover everyone" is using some creative logic. Obama's strategy is different than Hillary's because it focuses on decreasing costs and decreasing the influence of insurance companies. The end result is the same! If you want health insurance, you will be able to get it. Your argument is completely flawed.

    •  exactly, the diarist doesn't understand (9+ / 0-)

      the nature of the mandate issue.

      The mandate isn't directed at insurance companies, it's directed at buyers.

      If costs are still too high, the effect is the same in both plans.

      Guaranteeing eligibility helps mediate it but it's a separate concern altogether.

    •  But what if you don't want health insurance! (4+ / 0-)

      Then his plan won't cover you! And if you don't want health insurance! Then you should be worried! Because you won't be covered! Because you don't want to be!

      Hillary's plan is to give you health insurance, by not giving it to you, but by making you buy it, even if you can't afford it.

      /snark

      The real debate should be framed this way:
      Hillary's plan makes everyone get insurance.
      Obama's helps everyone afford insurance.

      They both touch everyone, just differently.

      •  exactly, Clinton's rhetoric is ridiculous (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Scoopster, Tonedevil, zbbrox

        she is now scaring blue collar workers that Obama's plan "leaves people out," and then rhetorically asks the audience, "Who will be those left out?" The suggestion, of course, being that some poor fellow in the audience will be among those forsaken by Obama.

        Of course, when Clinton goes in front of retirement communities and other groups of informed voters, she answers her own question by complaining about "young free riders leeching off the system."

        It's absurd, and I'm disappointed that Obama hasn't been more aggressive in calling it out.

        •  Yeah, I wish Obama could do more on that too (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil

          It's a fine line he has to walk though. He's got to defend himself, but avoid doing on the attack.

          But when you defend yourself by attacking the phony rhetoric, then people start frothing at the mouth that you're attacking, even if you're actually defending.

    •  In Ohio, no insurance = no driving. (0+ / 0-)

      That's how the law is set up.  Unless you buy automotive insurance, you cannot legally drive.  This has its own problems, but the point is that anyone who gets into an accident and has insurance doesn't have as much to worry about in paying for whatever repair work is needed.  It's not a perfect system, but it's better than not requiring insurance for drivers -- a situation that would leave many accident victims out in the cold.

      •  So (4+ / 0-)

        we with Hillary's plan we're forced to buy health insurance from private Health Insurance companies regardless of cost. If we don't buy it we would be fined in some manner, in other words it would be a misdemeanor to NOT have health insurance?

        Thanks but no thanks. Republicans shove stuff down people's throats, dems shouldn't be. Then again mandates are a republicans idea.

        Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

        by Dreggas on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:22:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Pay attention. (0+ / 0-)

          There are problems with Clinton's plan.  The ideal reform would come in passing HR 676.  But since no one wants to handle that hot potato despite its large and growing sponsor list in the House, we must look at which of the two "viable" plans can better achieve the needed reform.  While badly flawed, Clinton's plan at least covers more people and costs less in the long run than Obama's.

          •  I am paying attention (0+ / 0-)

            but I don't want the government telling me I have to bend over and pay whatever the insurance companies want me to pay or I'll be fined, thanks but no thanks.

            Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

            by Dreggas on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:12:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's where the legislative process comes in. (0+ / 0-)

              So much for paying attention.

              •  What legislative process? (0+ / 0-)

                Her proposal would be dead before it ever hit the "process" because of those mandates.

                Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

                by Dreggas on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 12:14:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hardly. (0+ / 0-)

                  Mandates can be rewritten, removed, or improved upon during the legislative process.  You assume Clinton wouldn't be flexible on getting her health care plan through Congress, if she becomes president.  If you look at her record, she's all too flexible.  This can be worked to our advantage, however.  Mrs. Clinton is nothing if not shrewd, and she'll go wherever the political winds take her.

                  •  Ok so if she gets rid of mandates (0+ / 0-)

                    then it's Obama's plan save for the fact that he wants to force down costs first. Clinton, and her campaign are adamant about the mandates. This would be nothing more than a replay of the 90's when she tried to force it down everyone's throat. It won't work.

                    Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

                    by Dreggas on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 12:48:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  As I said, she can also rework them. (0+ / 0-)

                      By following Edwards' lead, Clinton can begin to work out the flaws in her own plan.  As I pointed out in my blog yesterday, Paul Krugman wrote:

                      John Edwards has just called Mr. Obama’s bluff, by proposing that individuals be required to show proof of insurance when filing income taxes or receiving health care. If they don’t have insurance, they won’t be penalized — they’ll be automatically enrolled in an insurance plan.

                      That’s actually a terrific idea — not only would it prevent people from gaming the system, it would have the side benefit of enrolling people who qualify for S-chip and other government programs, but don’t know it.

                      Here's what Obama has demonstrated in responding to critiques of his flawed plan: attack the opponent's policy while heralding the weaknesses in his own as strengths.  If he persists in this behavior upon becoming president, he'll sabotage his efforts to pass health care reform.  Clinton may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.  I think she realizes that if Congress finds her health care reform plan in need of amendment, and any offered actually strengthen proposed legislation along the lines of what Edwards proposed, she'll go for it.  We have no such assurances from Obama, given his attacks.

      •  So, we'll make no health insurance = no living?nt (4+ / 0-)

      •  The difference is... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Inland, Marinesquire

        You get automotive insurance to protect other people, not yourself. I don't know Ohio, I suppose, but in every state I've lived in, you were required only to have liability insurance.

      •  Yeah - and its a CRIME to drive without it (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Scoopster, Inland

        (at least here in PA). If you don't have the money or don't want to spend the money for insurance, nobody is forcing you to drive.  Health insurance cannot work that way, since there is no voluntary way to avoid the need for it.

        Is it going to be a crime to not purchase private health insurance?

        I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC

        by Marinesquire on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:28:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  HRC's plan is, everyone gets a bill. (3+ / 0-)

      What you get for your bill, well, that's someone else's department.  All she's promising you is a bill.

      Since we have to decide between candidates, I like obama's plan better.

      Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

      by Inland on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:36:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You are not straight (8+ / 0-)

    You are so not straight.

    Guaranteed eligibility. No American will be turned away from any insurance plan because of illness or pre-existing conditions.

    This is a bit vague, isn't it?  How does Obama expect to cover all Americans, when his plan does not include mandates and doesn't cover everyone?

    Obama is being misleading when he says his proposal would "cover everyone." It would make coverage available to all, but experts we consulted estimate that 15 million to 26 million wouldn't take it up unless required to do so.

    You get no more reading from after that from me after such bullshit.

  •  Nonsense (4+ / 0-)

    You think that bi-partisanship is the emptiness in his cvampaign?  Nonsense.  hillary's lack of a reasonable feel for politics is the emptinness inn hers.

    She has always aimed low: voting R-lite over and over annd over on "defense" issues such as the Patriot Act or the Iran Resolution, or waffling, appeasing and copping out onn annything that the righht mighht use against her such as her recent failure to show for the FISA amendment. Hher Senate legislative record shows an unwillinngness to tackle anything that isn't safe.

    her plan for getting health care throuugh Congress seems to be "Elect me President and it will happen".   Well it wonn't. Not as she is proposing it. not unless we get a whole lot more Dems in bothh Houses and that won't happen if our Pressidential candidate doesn't have the coat tails to help close elections all over thhe nation.

    Clinton's approach is old style: go to Congress, tell them what to do.There is no reasonn to think it will work.

    Obama's approach is new style: create an activated, demading  majority of citizens, win races all over the country, win the Presidenncy with a clear majority, then go to Congress with the message that Congress must give the people whhat they want to face the consequences.

    His aproach is much more reality-oriented given thhe nature of Congress.  Most Congress people are more innfluenced by their lobbyists than their constituents. To get healthh care reformthat dynamic must be changed,.

    Obama's campaign is paid for by people like me. Hillary has accepted huge amounts of PAC money.  If shhe wins it will be by thhe skin of her teeth with no coattails to help other reaces.  She wonn't be in a position to advocate effectively for change annd hasn't got it in her character anyway.

    Second star on the right and straight on til morning

    by wren on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:09:30 AM PDT

  •  Let's see if I can do this... (3+ / 0-)

    The moon is made of green cheese.

    Now, how long do you think it'll be before the reality based community sets in on me?

  •  Obama's plan is universal access plan (6+ / 0-)

    Everyone that wants coverage will be able to get coverage, with help if needed.

    Once a working system is in place, there will be outreach efforts to get everyone to sign-up.

    These estimates (only estimates) like "15 million", are of people that choose not to get covered. But, outreach efforts, requirements on employees (to either provide HC to employees or pay into the public plan) and requirement on parents to ensure coverage for their children will help minimize that number.

    Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

    by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:12:44 AM PDT