Daily Kos

Why Clinton should not concede (yet)(w/poll)

Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:49:25 AM PDT

Hillary Clinton is doing all of us progressives a big favor by staying in the race. I realized this last night as I watched the second amazing debate I have seen. Josh Marshall commented this morning on something I noted too:

But one of my big questions about this debate was Hillary Clinton's lack of aggressiveness toward Barack Obama. I think it spoke very well of her on a number of levels -- personally, as a potential leader, etc. She made her case on her merits and policies.

But there is no mistaking the fact that by every metric and every visible trendline Barack Obama is in the process of winning the nomination. At least conventional political logic would dictate that she had no choice but to go after him just as she has been doing on the campaign trail.

But she didn't.

So why is she still showing up?

That debate and the one before it, and some of the ones before, were FREE educational seminars on what so many of us have wanted for the country for a long time, WHY we want them, and HOW we'll go about achieving these goals.

I remember writhing in agony watching the MORONIC debates of the 200 and 2004 election cycles. They were so stupid--the questions asked, the limited amount of time to formulate an answer, the lack of time given to other candidates to respond to a candidate's assertions. The soundbite really ruled (much like HRC's unfortunate Xerox (R) comment last night, which even as she was saying it she seemed to understand was a relic from the past).

I hated those debates with the candidates standing and needing to give fast answers, which does seem to increase aggressiveness, and glibness.

I never thought I'd congratulate CNN, but the questions of the last 2 debates have been substantive and serious, and the idea that there is only the constraint of a "reasonable" amount of time is brilliant--we can finally watch these people think and actually DEBATE each other.

I'm not saying HRC wouldn't still like to win--but do I think she's an idiot and doesn't see the writing on the wall? No. I do think her staying in and keeping TV coverage focused on the Democratic race will save our party millions of bucks in the general--because the USA is now so much more educated on what Dems really stand for and how they want to work.

The fact that the race keeps going, and almost 1 million people have now finally contributed to his campaign (and probably half a million to hers), has increased the investment of ordinary folks in this election.

I am really proud of the two of them--and though I originally thought his agreeing to more debates was a mistake, I know see that in any debates between them, the American people are the winners.  I can't remember the last time in my lifetime that I've heard political discourse on such a high level be part of mainstream TV.

As a nation, we're a little addicted to drama. And if it takes a horserace to get people watching and listening to serious discourse about progressive goals and values, I think it's worth it. Thoughts?

Poll

How long should Clinton stay in the race?

6%14 votes
7%17 votes
86%193 votes

| 224 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, debates, progressive (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 49 comments

    •  Hillary should stay in until March 4th (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mainer, MmeVoltaire

      Then withdraw gracefully, with a nice speech where she absolutely hammers Bush 3, aka McSlime.

      That will be the place to "take the gloves off"- go after McCain hard to put him in his place, he is Bush 3, with no other agenda but continuing the disaster of the bush years.

  •  She Shouldn't Concede Because (4+ / 0-)

    She's running a "close" second (at least compared to historical primaries), it isn't mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for her to win, and she still legitimately believes she's the best person for the job.

    That said, I'm pretty sure she'll be conceding in a couple weeks.

    •  I think she realized she isn't (0+ / 0-)

      ...last night right after she dropped that cynical and moronic "change you can Xerox" line.  You could tell she heard herself partway through and realized "Wait a minute, this is NOT who I am."  I really think she realized last night she had become her enemies.  I think she realized at the booing that her chances to become President had ended at that moment, and before the debate was over she had already moved on to the stage of mending fences.

      But I also think it's good for her to stay in the race.  Just think of all the new registrations and crossover votes she will motivate in Ohio and Pennsylvania -- not to mention Texas, where most of the good has probably already taken place.  By staying in the race a few months longer (if she can find the money) and putting up token resistance against Obama, she helps engineer a maximum blowout against McCain in November.

      I think she will condemn that planned 527 her supporters wanna use to swiftboat Obama.  I have a feeling it's going to sink before delivering fire.

    •  That is not the Clinton way (0+ / 0-)

      She will try to drag it out to the bitter end.  The only thing that will force her out is the superdelegates all moving to Obama, which I think they will begin to do after he wins Texas.

      •  Really? You have (0+ / 0-)

        some place you can point to that shows when Sen. Clinton did anything that was to the detriment of the Democratic Party? Ya got a link? Any documentary evidence for this slander?

        Or is that just your opinion? Of course you are allowed your own view on things, but if your going to make such an extravagant claim, you need some back up. Got any?

        If you live in fear, then the worst that can happen to you has already happened. Will You live in fear?

        by Something the Dog Said on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:35:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah, debates like these are nothing but good (6+ / 0-)

    for Democratic branding, not to mention how much they help Obama shake the "no substance" meme.

    She should still drop after 3/4 if she doesn't sweep TX/OH, though.  The longer the primaries go on, the harder it will be to pull the halves of the party back together.

    •  I disagree (0+ / 0-)

      at least in terms of pulling the party together. This is a really small samples size but I think it is indicative of the party at large.

      I have Dem friends and relatives that are all over the country, some are for Sen. Obama, some for Sen. Clinton, but they do not have the level of visceral anger that some of those on the blogs do about supporting their candidate.

      To my mind, the party is united about what we want to do; it is just a question of who is going to get to do it.

      Sen. Clinton will drop out when and if it becomes clear that she just can not win. We should know that on March 4th. But if she does win in TX/OH she should keep going as long as she sees a way to win.

      That is what politicians do. Try to win until they can't.

      If you live in fear, then the worst that can happen to you has already happened. Will You live in fear?

      by Something the Dog Said on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:19:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's starting to get silly (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alden

    You have a nice thought, but Hillary's "change by Xerox" line was clearly preplanned and ignores history, e.g., Martin Luther King borrowing big chunks of text from one of his friends for the "I Have a Dream" speech. If she is going to continue this pettiness, instead of focusing on the real issues, the media will continue to go crazy over it and distract people from listening in and learning about those real issues.

  •  The sooner she's out the better. (4+ / 0-)

    These debates are not what we'll be debating with McCain. These debates amount to intra-family skirmishes. We're not going to be debating the nuances of universal health care with John McCain. We'll be debating government being involved in health care at all.

    The sooner Hillary's out, the sooner Barack can get a few days rest, and then build the campaign against the Republican nominee.

  •  Your poll results say it all n/t (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MD patriot, Same As It Ever Was

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:56:04 AM PDT

  •  Good point. (5+ / 0-)

    But at some point we need to get to the work of building general election infrastructure.  And for that, the party needs a presumptive nominee.

    That said, the length of the campaign is allowing Obama to build infrastructure of his own and pentrate markets in way he would not otherwise have been able to had it not been for the length of the race.

    March 5 will be the end of the Clinton campaign IMO.

    We are the ones we've been waiting for.

    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:56:30 AM PDT

  •  She should concede if she doesn't have huge wins (4+ / 0-)

    in TX and OH.  I think Hillary made a big mistake with the Xerox commercial, and realized it.  Her campaign sucks, but I don't think SHE sucks.  Hillary is classy, and she's not going to continue to go negative.  She is going to stay in, (as she should,) and then concede if she doesn't have a huge day.

    She had the best line of the debate last night with "The rich and powerful have already had a president for the past 7 years; now it's time the rest of America did."  (not necessarily an exact quote)

    My faith in Hillary has been restored, and I hope I am not proven wrong.

  •  HRC should conceed (0+ / 0-)

    by March 4th if she doesn't win big.  

  •  This is her peak (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MD patriot, Alden

    She should concede now.

    Her campaign isn't working.  When she does what her high-priced consultant tells her to do (attack on "plagiarism") it goes over very poorly.  She is connecting with people best when she comes closest to acknowledging that she has been beaten by a superior campaigner with a superior campaign - with the one who truly will be ready "on Day One."

    She would do herself a world of good by conceding now, and starting to make herself a major part of the positive turn this country can start making.

    Her liberation from Bubba and Penn should start NOW.

    Politics is not arithmetic. It's chemistry.

    by tamandua on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:59:22 AM PDT

    •  You're right (5+ / 0-)

      Matthews et al were correct on MSNBC last night.

      The best thing for Hillary's reputation and legacy would be a surprise concession a few days from now, before the week of the TX and OH primaries, like Edwards before Super Tuesday.

      However, the best thing for the party by way of Obama in November is for Hillary to keep the contest alive while Obama's team continues this tidal wave of new registrations and voter energy, including all the independents and crossovers who reach the point of committing to O.  The mere act of going into the primary voting booth and actually casting a vote for O or against H invests them in his campaign.  That will cool off after Hillary drops out.  How much it will cool I'm not sure, but it will cool some.

  •  I felt as if that bit was a preplanned slip (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alden, spookthesunset

    It had all the earmarks of a remark one of her bright boys (or girls) thought up, but it had nothing to do with the rest of the debate. For 99% of the evening she was really on message for what she believe in--and I think he responded beautifully, privately, to her, instead of trying to humiliate her in return ("this from someone who didn't write her own book--I did").

    There's no fun in tormenting someone who won't respond. She looked an ass right after, the audience booed, and everybody let it go.

    I have the weird feeling sometimes that she has a little bit of a crush on him and really enjoys the sparring. It reminds me a little of eighth grade. Very SMART eighth grade.

    •  What an interesting notion! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MmeVoltaire, NWTerriD

      I wonder if it ever crosses her mind that while she ended up with the sex addict, Michelle ended up with the real political superhero.

      Or maybe she just remembers what Bill was like (or herself) when they were still politically young and fresh.

  •  Ohio and Texas should vote first (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alden, MmeVoltaire
  •  Obama WINNING Ohio and Texas (4+ / 0-)

    would be the best scenario for November.

    If Hillary were a true team player, she would do a Chicago Black Sox thing, hoping that Obama wins TX & OH by 10 points.

    Then concede.

    = = =

    Hmmm . . .

    Xerox quip plus quoting Edwards, Bill Clinton and John Travolta? Is it possible?

  •  It's the money. (3+ / 0-)

    Suppose you had begged millions of dollars from your friends to run for President?  As long as there's a reasonable chance of winning, you gotta stay in. You owe it to your backers, some of whom are in for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    If she wins Texas or Ohio, she has a right to stay in.  She has a mathematical chance of winning, and she and her supporters have put too much cash on the line.

    It would be tacky if she went negative.  But she is far from beat.

    Besides, as a Democrat, I would like to see at least one more debate like last night's.  Preferably in a swing state like PA.  Last night was Good Liberal TV and we need more of it.

  •  Need another option (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Robert Davies

    X She should concede now and allow Obama and team to turn their complete attention to McCain.

  •  If it wasn't for the big gap between MS & PA (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alden, mainer

    I would agree that Clinton staying in the race is not a bad thing. But that 5 week gap in one state- unfortunately, I don't think that will engender the type of politics you are aiming for with this diary.

  •  A lot of this normally is like street ball. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MmeVoltaire

    Trash talkin', the elbows flyin, the shirt grab when the ref's not lookin...then the "who me???" when called on it...but not THIS campaign...so now I expect alot of conciliation talk for conciliations sake.

    My impulse is HELL NO.

    Good thing it's not my call. I'd tell 'em (the Clintons) to go F themselves after the shit they and their surrogates have pulled ( still are) in the Primaries....This is going to sound really shitty, but I can't help but thinking watching CNN and this Police Officer Killed on a motorcycle today for her limo caravan  --- Why??? Why the fuck is she still in the Race trailing by a million votes??

    They really do have an undemocratic mean streak that had them run against Welfare moms and their own  Democratic Congress in the 90's. The result was they got their heads handed to them in 94, crippling the Party, looking for few friends to lean on during Impeachment...In many ways the Clintons ushered in the Era of Bush... If it wasn't for the disastrous candidacy of the Dole Campaign, they would have been knocked out in 96..

    The party would be foolish at this point to fall all over itself worried about a soft landing for the Clintons, especially their operatives within the Party...

    Nobody needs to be kicked when they're down, but "winning" also brings with it the soemwhat difficult reality that you DEFEAT someone else...

    Barack is smart savvy and gracious politically...he need do no more than that...

    When I think about how the Clintons sought to closet Jesse Jackson and any other "inconvenient" voices within the Party, it STILL makes me pissed...

    The Clintons: Caving to Republicans since the first Day One.

    by Robert Davies on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:18:44 AM PDT

  •  Is anyone owning up to authorship .... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alden, Robert Davies

    ... of that dreadful Xerox comment?

    "It does not require many words to speak the truth." -- Chief Joseph, native American leader (1840-1904)

    by highfive on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:19:39 AM PDT

  •  Need another poll option (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    humphrey

    Clinton needs to concede now.

  •  The people who (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alden, MmeVoltaire, Catte Nappe, NWTerriD

    are saying she should drop out now (not very many of them, true, but still) are being silly. Everything for the past several weeks has set up March 4 as the most likely deciding moment.

    I'm saying some "ifs" so as not to jinx things, but I do think Obama will win Texas, and probably Ohio too. Despite the sententious pronouncements of some pundits, the race is no longer "tied" and momentum is now counting. The coalescing around the likely nominee is starting to happen.

    But if Hillary drops out before March 4, it won't feel right. Obama in some sense still has to cross some sort of final hurdle, and if he wins on March 4, he will have done it fair and square, according to terms Clinton's campaign appears to have endorsed, and according to all possible measures of how the race might be cast (ie, winning even if you count MI and FL results, winning on pledged delegates, winning on total delegates, winning on popular vote etc.). We need that sense of closure to move on. Clinton supporters probably need to feel the sense that their candidate really lost, and not on any technicalities, to better come to terms with that loss.

    But, assuming Obama does win on March 4, there doesn't seem to be much point to Clinton staying in. She won't be able to win the nomination, and her policy points are very similar to his. She will be in a Huckabee-like position (maybe she can win in Kentucky!) and not really helping. The press won't really be covering her, and she'll still be spending her supporters' money. No, she really should get out if things play out that way.

    Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

    by JMS on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:26:30 AM PDT

  •  After March 4th (0+ / 0-)

    I see no reason for her to concede before March 4th. In NH voters flocked to her and let it be known that they weren't ready for it to end yet. It may be a long shot but it could happen again.

    Unless she sees internally that it is really unraveling  in TX or Ohio and she is going to get crushed there is no reason for her to pull out just yet. I am supporting Obama but as long as it is on the issues and does not become a slime fest the party benefits from the on the ground organizing, the experience and exposure the candidates gain and the media coverage. Both candidates must be tested and ready whichever goes up against McCain in  November.

  •  The debate (0+ / 0-)

    was a great event for Dem politics.  Unfortunately, the same can't be said about what's been happening in the campaign as a whole over the past few weeks.

    The dominant theory on this thread seems to be that the crashing of the the Xerox "lead balloon" finally convinced Clinton that the attacks have to stop, and her final shining moment was acknowledgement of that.  

    I hope that is right, and if it is, then continuing the campaign for a few more weeks will be helpful.

    But pardon my cynicism when I say I'm not sure that interpretation is correct.  I heard several days ago that the compromise betweeen the warring factions of the Clinton campaign was that she would be nicey-nice during the debate, while behind the scenes the nastiness would continue, and possibly be stepped up.  

    If this scenario is true, then a continuation of the primary campaign will not be helpful to the party at all, either in terms of party unity or the nominee's chances in November.  I guess we'll see over the next few days.

    In the face of all cynicism, all doubt, all fear, I ask you to believe we can once again make this...a land of limitless possibility & unyielding hope - BHO

    by NWTerriD on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:47:34 AM PDT

  •  End it on March 5th (0+ / 0-)

    I think she does see the writing on the wall and for the sake of the party, and the Clintons, she better get out on March 5th.  If her and Bill continue on to the convention with this, she is only going to split the party and poor Bill's legacy.  

    She is going to lose Texas, Vermont and Rhode Island on the 4th, maybe even Ohio the way the polls are moving.  So, end it on March 5th and let Senator Obama unite the party and go after McCain.  We don't need Billary out there tearing down Obama every day.

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