Daily Kos

Mortgage Bailout Closer, and what it means

Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:10:20 AM PDT

The New York Times Business section leads with this article,

WASHINGTON — Prodded in part by some of the nation’s biggest banks, the Bush administration and Congress are considering costly new proposals for the government to rescue hundreds of thousands of homeowners whose mortgages are higher than the value of their

Much of the discussion of the current mortgage crisis, which is the trigger for the larger credit crunch in economies throughout the world, see the responsibility as so diffuse that no single individual can be held responsible.  A recent OpEd by Eliot Spitzer makes clear who the main culprit is, and the name is familiar, George W. Bush.

Read on.

Here is the article from the San Diego Union Tribune, Protection for predatory lenders

And here's the key sections:

Even though predatory lending was becoming a national problem, the Bush administration looked the other way and did nothing to protect American homeowners. In fact, the government chose instead to align itself with the banks that were victimizing consumers.

-snip

Several state legislatures enacted laws aimed at curbing such practices. North Carolina passed a predatory lending law in 1999, Georgia in 2002 and New York in 2003.

What did the Bush administration do in response? Did it reverse course and decide to take action to halt this burgeoning scourge? As Americans are now painfully aware, with hundreds of thousands of homeowners facing foreclosure and our markets reeling, the answer is a resounding no.

Not only did the Bush administration do nothing to protect consumers, it embarked on an aggressive and unprecedented campaign to prevent states from protecting their residents from the very problems to which the federal government was turning a blind eye.

In 2003, during the height of the predatory lending crisis, the OCC invoked a clause from the 1863 National Bank Act to issue formal opinions pre-empting all state predatory lending laws, thereby rendering them inoperative against national banks. The OCC also promulgated new rules that prevented states from enforcing any of their own consumer protection laws against national banks. The federal government's actions were so egregious and so unprecedented that all 50 state attorneys general, and all 50 state banking superintendents, actively fought the new rules.

But the unanimous opposition of the 50 states did not deter, or even slow, the Bush administration in its goal of protecting the banks. In fact, when my office opened an investigation in 2005 of possible discrimination in mortgage lending by a number of banks, including national banks, the OCC filed a federal lawsuit to stop the investigation against the national banks.

The tragedy of this mortgage crisis is that it is the culmination of a process that began with the elimination of the requirement that there be a sizable down payment that was paid for by the investor for a home.  This is the equivalent of the margin requirement when stocks are purchased.

When we buy a stock with a 50% margin, we may leverage our investment, but the investor who will benefit from the appreciation of the stock, also pays for the downside.  Houses are an investment asset just as equities are.  When the margin requirements, the down payment is reduced to zero, then we have a bizarre incentive to bid up the value of the house, without any concern with the actual value of the asset.

And those with the least net worth have less to lose.  If the house increases in value they retain the profit, but if the house value declines  then they lose not a thing. In fact they will be the first to abandon the house to foreclosure accelerating the decline of values. If the bailouts under discussion take effect, the person who did not participate in this bubble, who saw it for what it was, becomes the loser.

He/she remains in his rental property, even less able to ever own at the now supported higher prices.  And this is the kicker.  He must now pay the taxes to subsidize the person who bid up the price of homes that he can no longer afford.

This is the worst of all possible worlds.  The financial gurus who created these arcane securitized debt instruments designed to sell to unwitting investors, abetted by "repected" rating companies such as Standard and Poors who gave them a AAA rating, will do just fine.  They will continue their CEO positions making tens of millions a year as the shareholder's equity drops.

And the large population of homeowners are injured as their homes decline in price.  Financially, some are only back to where they were five years ago before the bubble started, but the infection of individuals perception was ubiquitous, and not many had immunity to it.  Mortgage companies were offering free money, no risk, on imagined equity based no the bubble values that were created by this vast scheme.

This is a domestic situation with the same characteristic as the Iraq incursion, in that both have no good solution.  Going into Iraq was easier than getting out, and starting this bubble was easier than lessening the suffering it is causing.

It was largely a result of the virulent free enterprise mentality, that was perverted to eliminating legitimate government restraint.  However, the Democrats in Congress could have made a bit more noise.  Sadly, too many are in bed with the same financial interests as the Republicans.

Eliot Spitzer, and the Attorney's General of the states tried to fight this, but they were stopped by a Federalism that never anticipated that the reigns of government would be in the hands of those who were pathologically and ideologically criminally negligent.

Now we will all pay the price. Just how much it will be is yet to be seen.  

Tags: Mortgage crisis, Eliot Spitzer (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 60 comments

  •  No bailout (4+ / 0-)

    did you read the great examples in the times article.  I am sorry, but my guess is that there are a lot more people in trouble with circumstances similar to the ones in the article than people who were duped by lenders.  The other bailout being discussed (bipartisan) is another shot at a homebuyer tax credit (similar to the one from 1975).  Both of these ideas are bad.  Why can't this "free market" country actually let the market work for once?

    •  That's my choice... (5+ / 0-)

      some people would be hurt.  But those who saw their homes double did not offer to share the proceeds with those who were left out and were renting.

      •  great point! (6+ / 0-)

        The housing crunch is incredibly frustrating right now for my family.  We've been pinching our pennies for about two years, and we're still a year away from having a comfortable down payment plus emergency money for when something inevitably breaks.  Granted, we live in the DC area and we want a townhouse or a single family home, but a two-income family in the low-to-mid-$100s shouldn't have a problem buying a place in a decent neighborhood....it's not like we're trying to buy in Georgetown or DuPont Circle or Capitol Hill.  We moved to the 'burbs for a reason!

        I have a very hard time feeling sorry for people who jumped into this situation expecting free money or who made ridiculous assumptions regarding their potential salary in 5 years not realizing they couldn't get refinanced for a 30-year fixed loan.

        Sandra Day O'Connor: "...A state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation's citizens."

        by radical centrist on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:35:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are not represented in this debate... (4+ / 0-)

          and you should be.

          None of our candidates are speaking for responsible people like yourself.  I believe that there is strong sentiment against a bailout by the broad population, confirmed in an earlier diary with a poll here months ago.

          But HRC and BHO, Clinton more than Obama, seem to only feel the "poor homeowners" are the ones to be saved.  Their saving will be paid by you, and by me.

          That's why I write these dairies.

          •  You shouldn't feel too bad for me... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            arodb

            ...Virginia MegaMillions is up to $270 million tonight, and I'm feeling lucky!

            In seriousness, you're right, there is very little place in this discourse for those who are doing the right thing.  I would have no problem with my tax dollars helping out the immigrant who was taken advantage of because they couldn't speak English, or any situation where the buyer was not told the truth by the mortgage company/bank.

            But I refuse to feel guilty about foreclosures for people who didn't do the right thing.  There is no such thing as free money.

            Sandra Day O'Connor: "...A state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation's citizens."

            by radical centrist on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:08:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  At first I read your headline as MegaMansions... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              radical centrist

              are up to 270 million.  And you know, I believed it.  Yearly income of hedge fund managers can be in this range, and the top 20 this is the minimum.

              Those who designed this housing scam could afford a house at this cost, with acreage, views and high walls to keep us all away. And if we came around to complain.

              As Mr. Burns would say, "release the hounds"

    •  No bailout (4+ / 0-)

      Prices are artificially high because of the lending games of the past decade. Hoping that time and economic upturns will "fix" things makes things worse. Pop the bubble, take the losses, and let's regroup.

      We sold our home in Jan 2007 at the peak of the bubble to downsize...and have been renting since. The lease on our current place just ran out and rental prices are about 20% less now than they were a year ago - our landlord wouldn't cut the lease price to reflect the current market rate, so we gave him 30 day notice last week. Found a new, bigger, nicer place for $200 less per month in just a day.

      Now, if only we could find somewhere with a greater than 5-6% guaranteed return for our money...we put the proceeds from the sale of our house into stocks, mutual funds, and CDs, but dumped the stocks and mutual funds in the Fall, as the market slumped. The CDs expire next month and the renewal rate being offered is currently in the 3% range.

      We're staying in cash/CDs/money market savings til things look safer.

    •  Having Done Predatory Lending Cases (7+ / 0-)

      For 9 years now, I say with all due respect that your guess is wrong.

      In fact, other than in extremely "hot" markets or emerging markets in which entire subdivisions sprung up in mid-air long before there was an actual demand for such housing (i.e. Florida, parts of Arizona), the vast majority of folks caught up in this crisis were folks of modest means who because of the economy ended up in a refinance cycle of deteriorating quality as they tried to make ends meet.  An entire ocean of financial sharks, from brokers to appraisers to banks themselves, were out there to meet them -- because of what Ben Bernacke himself admitted last year was an insatiable desire to produce more and more paper which could be securitized and sold.

      Don't believe the hype.  The vast majority who will be hurt are regular honest folks.

      •  Seems to me, there are some relatively easy ways (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        libertyisliberal, arodb, LillithMc

        to separate the wolves from the sheep.

        Is it a second home?

        Does the owner also own other properties?

        Is it a more expensive house than the median house priced in the area?

        Have there been equity extractions?

        Did the person qualify for a conforming loan but get steered to a subprime reset?

        Cheers.

        "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

        by New Deal democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:41:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If the broker did not give them the best deal... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          LillithMc

          then their is a breach of fiduciary responsibility.  But I'm not sure this was retained by the Federal agencies.   This is the type of thing that Spitzer was fighting for and Bush thwarted.

          Stopping this would have been so much easier than curing the problem.

        •  additional question (0+ / 0-)

          How many home purchases made in the last 5 years?

          Sandra Day O'Connor: "...A state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation's citizens."

          by radical centrist on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:36:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  As To Second Homes (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          arodb, TerribleTom

          It floors me that someone with a vacation home that is undersecured can file a Chapter 13 and cram down that mortgage, but Average Jane can't hang on to her only house by doing the same thing.  Even in a country where we've all become immune to irony, this one is a doozy.  

          Congress has to change this.  If it's OK to save some people's vacation homes, surely it's OK to save everybody else's actual homes.  You know, not the place at the beach, but the place they own so they don't have to live ON the beach.  

      •  After 9/11 the President told us to "go shoppng". (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        libertyisliberal

        Now we know how many were able to afford it.

        "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

        by lordcopper on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:46:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  shanikka, I don't disagree with you.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        libertyisliberal

        That is why I featured Spitzers attempt to control this preditory lending and Bush's thwarting of it.

        I call this a cognitive infection, a meme that has spread, even to some degree to the non speculators you describe.  Even good people succumb to the lure of easy, no obligation, free money, and leveraged investments with no risk.

        This is exactly what makes this such a thorny problem, the good honest folks have become the participants, unwitting, frequently, even "vast majority" but participants never the less in this......

        What do I call it?  Conspiracy.  Breakdown in morality, Viral Meme.  I don't know how to describe it.

  •  Tax the rich. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    arodb, Fungible Chattel

    This seems like the most direct approach to pay for this.

  •  anyone who buys a house with (6+ / 0-)

    no down payment is a bit naive for expecting "all good stuff with no bad stuff".  Likewise, people should not buy more than they can afford.

    Builders have also contributed to the problem by building oversize houses instead of modest ones.  Finally, those big houses will divided into duplexes as they should have been in the first place.

    I don't want a big house.  You have to consider property taxes, heating and cooling, furnishing, cleaning, not JUST (barely) making the mortgage payments.

    Government can't protect people from their own bad decisions. But the predatory lenders should not have been allowed to offer these "la la land" deals in the first place.

    Lenders, bad for offering them (should be illegal).  Buyers (ever hear of caveat emptor?)

    •  I had not realized how directly Bush... (6+ / 0-)

      had abetted this crisis.  Most people are not aware that he actually stopped state action that would have dampened this mania.

      Add this to the articles of impeachment.

    •  hmmmm (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mataliandy, Fungible Chattel

      anyone who buys a house with
      no down payment is a bit naive for expecting "all good stuff with no bad stuff".

      Not entirely true.

      Likewise, people should not buy more than they can afford.

      BUT - in combination with ignoring this sage piece of advice, however, I would agree wholeheartedly.

      My husband and I purchased our house with no money down in 1999, using his VA benefit.  There is no way we could ever have purchased a house with 20% down, or even 5% in this lifetime.  The way home prices have been rising in our area, by the time we had saved the 20% for this house, it would have been less than 5% of the current market value, and we would be no better off.  But - we did take into consideration the second half of your statement, and chose a house that gave us a house payment that was not much different than our rent payment was at the time.  It reduced our income tax liability dramatically.  We went from having to have extra money withheld every paycheck to getting a refund every year, even after reducing our withholding to "normal" deductions (without the extra deduction).  It was and continues to have been a good move for us.

      There is nothing wrong with using a tool like a zero-down VA mortgage to buy a house that is within your means.  Or any other type of legitimate mortgage product - provided you understand how it works and how your payments will change over time.  I have never been able to wrap my head around ARM's, so we simply don't consider them, but I know people for whom they have worked beautifully.  

      The other mistake folks seem to have made - with the help of lenders - is to use their home like an ATM.  I couldn't begin to guess the number of loan offers we get in a month, all unsolicited. THAT should be illegal.  Lenders should not be able to send second mortgage offers through the mail like credit card offers.  I would be willing to bet that not everyone who takes advantage of those offers truly understands that they are putting their home at risk when they do.

      'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

      by lcork on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:50:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the imput... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        libertyisliberal

        and you are the poster family for these zero down payment loans.  I'm glad they worked for you, and understand your support  of them.

        But sometimes policy formation has to look at the larger picture, and for the potential for abuse.

        And the problem you describe, not being able to ever catch up with increases in values, was when inflation was low compared to now.  But put yourself in your own place now, looking at your house with it's present value.

        I'm happy for you.  And this is always the difficulty with any policy, what can be right for certain individuals can exact a larger aggregate cost to the economy and society.

        But you avoided your second defect, which places you in a different light than so many others.

        •  my point is really (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mataliandy, arodb

          that common sense must prevail.  Anyone buying a house right now should have a compelling reason to do so.  The zero down loans worked wonderfully well making it possible for first time buyers such as myself to own a home.  I'm not the only person who has had a good experience with them, surely, but they are a tool and need to be used properly.

          If you accept the concept that home-ownership is a good thing, that it can be a building block for financial security and at the same time build strong, stable communities, then making it easier for would-be homebuyers to buy a house sooner is a great policy.  But it's not an excuse for buying more than you can realistically afford.  There is a clear difference between making it easier for people to buy their first home when they have everything going for them but a down-payment, and making bad underwriting decisions that result in loans being made to people who can't afford them.  

          If more and better regulation is needed to prevent lenders from making what at the end of the day are simply bad business decisions, then I'm all for more and better regulation.  Simply eliminating a product that, when used properly can give first time home buyers a great benefit is a rather short-sighted and reactionary approach.  One that punishes otherwise qualified first-time homebuyers and doesn't do much to address the issues that caused mess we're in now.

          'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

          by lcork on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:46:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  people should be free (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lcork, arodb

        to make their own decisions.  That is my point.  When it comes to any large purchase or investment, "let the buyer beware" is always in full force.

        I am not dissing all home-buyers, or those who won versus those who lost. Merely that those who lost did so on their own accord.  Those who won did so on their own accord. And people who believe snake-oil salesmen should not believe snake-oil salesmen.

        I do not think there should be government bailouts for bad investments. It undermines the whole rationale for making good investments. You made a good investment good for you. But had it worked out badly then it would be bad for you. I don't see how government can "make everything rosy" for everyone.

        •  yeah (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          arodb

          I think that each of us in our own words is saying kind of the same thing.

          I think the parties that need to be LESS free are the lenders making the loans.  Because not everyone understands the intricacies of the mortgage industry, it's easy for consumers to be led astray into a product they either don't understand, or worse, one that is not in their best interest.  It should not be necessary to have a Ph.D. in economics in order to know whether or not the loan product you're choosing is likely to cause you financial ruin.

          It's not that I believe people should not have choices, but that the lenders should have strict guidelines on how to qualify people for the products they offer.  Make the menu of options for the consumer as comprehensive as possible, but make it less possible for the lender - the one who is making the profit on the loan - to push a person into something inappropriate.  And when a person doesn't qualify, that should be that - send them on their way with an action plan to help them get to a solid enough financial footing so that the can qualify in six months or a year.  

          At the same time the concept of "profit" and "loss" when it comes to buying a home should largely go away.  Your home is first and foremost your home.  Historically, real estate prices go up and down, not unlike the stock market.  If you hold onto your home for ten or twenty years, chances are when you go to sell it, you'll get more than you paid for it.  Chances are the price of milk will have gone up as well.  It's nice if you come out ahead, but that shouldn't be the whole deal - and it's should never be a "get-rich-quick" scheme.  

          BTW - I don't like the idea of government bailouts.  I guess they're coming whether we like them or not, but to the extent that lenders made bad business decisions, they ought to pay some sort of a price.  It does concern me that so many people are losing their homes and that some neighborhoods have so many foreclosed properties standing empty.  It is sad, and penalizes people in those neighborhoods, who may have lived there for years and had no part in the whole drama.  

          One proposal I read somewhere seemed to make some sense, and I can't find where I read it - should have bookmarked the thing.  Basically it went like this: the banks would get to foreclose on the owners, but then would be required to rent back the properties at fair market value to the former home owners.  This kind of made sense to me from the standpoint that the homeowner who made the bad choices didn't get bailed out totally, but still wasn't necessarily rendered homeless.  It allowed the banks to take back their assets but they also paid a price for their bad business decisions by not being able to sell the properties for a period of time.  It helped the neighborhoods with the most foreclosures from becoming "blighted" by keeping people living in the properties.  I forget the whole proposal, but it seemed like it made some sense.  

          'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

          by lcork on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 01:22:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Everyone would love to make corrupt mortgage (7+ / 0-)

    lenders foot the bill for this fiasco.  Here's the problem, they've taken hostages (the U.S. economy and prectically every U.S. consumer in one way or another). There is no way that the govt., can freeze interest rates, or foreclosures.  If they did, they would introduce more uncertainty into the market by causing "capital flight".  The govt., is going to have to create some sort of "backstop" (for lack of a better term) to give lenders and borrowers time to work out of these failed mortgages.  They can limit it to "primary residences" only, but depending on the level of speculation in the real estate markets they may have to back off of that too.  What we are looking at is a substantial portion (10-12%) of the real estate owning population in/near foreclosure, or underwater (in terms of value.  This situation has grave implications for the U.S. economy as a whole, and for specific regions of the country.  It's going to take 3-4 years before inventory comes in line with demand.

    "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

    by lordcopper on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:32:19 AM PDT

  •  I am not a big proponent of a bailout (5+ / 0-)

    I have no problem supporting legal remedies for those that actually were victims of predatory lending. but it is not clear to me just what percentage of the current problem predatory lending is versus everything else. I suspect it is on the small side. I also suspect that while the victims of predatory lending are worthy of redress what we actually have is a lot of unworthy on its' own merit riding in with the worthy.

    I do not want to see taxpayers subsidizing those who pulled equity out of their home (some repeatedly) to finance a lifestyle .... nice vacations the BMW and so forth. Also boomers have the highest percentage of second homes/vacation homes ever historically .... why should a taxpayer subsidize the "investment". Or the multitude of people who "purchased" far more house than they could afford betting that property would appreciate before their payments jumped. All the flippers.

    Bad behavior does not deserve a reward.

    •  Term preditory is misleading... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sharon Jumper, libertyisliberal

      the people who took out these equity loans, and mortgages either got a great big check or a nice house.

      Predatory is when something is extorted and nothing received.  They turned out to be bad deals, but only in 2007.  These same predatory loans made the lendee rich for many years prior to this.

      I don't recall them offering to share their gains with anyone.

      •  Yes and No (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lcork, arodb

        Sure, there are plenty of cases where the lending wasn't predatory, BUT, as the person who fields the frequent phone calls for my elderly Dad (who can no longer speak), seeking to get him to take out a new home equity line "at a lower rate," I can say there are definitely some predators out there, actively targeting those who might not be in the best position to make good decisions.

        He got another one just last week - trying to con him into an adjustable rate loan at 2 percent lower than his current fixed-rate loan ... at least to start. If he's getting these calls - from his own bank, with which he's done business for many years - then I can only imagine how many others are getting them.

        How many of our parents are hurting due to the prescription drug "donut hole," watching the value of their retirement accounts fail, and paying ever increasing taxes for inflated property values - leaving them hemorrhaging and desperate? How many of these people are "leveraging the value" of their homes just to get by?

        Also, if more than 50% of bankruptcies in this country are due to medical costs, then how many people took out big loans at low teaser rates in the hope that they could get out ahead of their medical bills before the piper came calling?

    •  agree, problem with betting is (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sharon Jumper, arodb

      that people can and do lose.  If betting only involved winning, everyone would do it.

      It is the losing part that 1) sucks, but 2) keeps one from making bad bets in the first place.

      Government can't protect people from their own bad decisions.  They will most likely just make future bad decisions.

    •  How Do We Separate the Deserving? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mataliandy, arodb

      I have no problem supporting legal remedies for those that actually were victims of predatory lending. but it is not clear to me just what percentage of the current problem predatory lending is versus everything else. I suspect it is on the small side. I also suspect that while the victims of predatory lending are worthy of redress what we actually have is a lot of unworthy on its' own merit riding in with the worthy.

      I don't know how anybody, anywhere can draw this line.  Who's worthy?  Who's unworthy?  I can promise you that the government is utterly  unable to make this distinction; I've made too many phone calls to Welfare trying to keep people off the street.  

      There is no way to unravel this mess and punish the undeserving without punishing the deserving as well.  The jackass who took out a second mortgage to get a BMW and is now upside down and halfway out on the street can't be punished without also punishing the family that just wanted a nice picket fence and some damned closet space.  And even the jackass may have kids in the back seat.  What bothers me most is the idea that there are parents opening their bills white knuckled and fearful and staying up late after the kids are asleep whispering about what the hell they're going to do now.  

      But it affects my family too, and we're renters.  I didn't buy into the market a few years ago because I could only get an ARM, and the prices I was seeing were giving me the vapors.  I knew it wouldn't last.  I don't want someone else's family on the street but I do want mine to have a shot at a house, and that's not going to happen if we prop up the mortgage market, which will keep the prices inflated.  I didn't play the game, but somehow I lost anyway.  

  •  Bailout? (3+ / 0-)

    With what? our country is beyond broke.

    The house of cards is toppling.  This little article tells me we are in deep deep shit.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/...

  •  I vote bailout (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lordcopper

    but do it on the most favorable possible terms for the home-owners, so we can try to stem the devastating impact this is having on too many families and communities.

    As for the lenders, let it be known this plan will come loaded with all the regulation they have fought to get rid of for the last 20 years. This medicine better taste like cod liver oil -- it may help them survive, but they are going to hate every second of the therapy.

    The Republican Party: Reinventing government, the same way they reinvented New Orleans

    by QuestionableSanity on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:40:27 AM PDT

  •  No bailout. (7+ / 0-)

    Offering easy credit to anyone with a pulse in order to buy a house, requiring no down payment... wow, our financial leaders should have really seen this coming.  They actually encouraged people to be irresponsible with their finances and buy homes they couldn't really afford.

    The real losers in this are not the banks, nor are they the people who were duped into buying houses they never would be able to afford (though I feel bad for them.)  No, the real losers in this are the responsible homeowners who didn't overextend themselves, make their mortgage payments on time, and now are being hurt because of the gross irresponsibility of everyone else in the system.

    •  the housing market was like gambling (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      New Deal democrat, arodb

      a few years ago.  When "everyone" was winning, there were no complaints.  Now that some of those same people are losing, they are crying for help.

      Meanwhile, those of us who don't "gamble" in the first place, understand that any money we invest CAN be lost (isn't usually but certainly CAN be and therefore should be invested wisely), and don't live beyond our means to pay for it, are the ones expected to be sympathetic.

      I am not sympathetic.  Maybe they will learn how to invest more wisely from this mistake (isn't that how most people actually learn?).  

      How is it these people "losing" $100,000 equity in their "investment" any different than my having rented for 10 years?

    •  not to mention... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      arodb, Fungible Chattel

      The folks who didn't buy because it seemed irresponsible and now have been priced out of the market.

      Sandra Day O'Connor: "...A state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation's citizens."

      by radical centrist on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:43:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  zero down (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      arodb

      is really not as much of a problem as the "no doc" loans that were going on for a while.  To underwrite a loan with no documentation from the borrower is (to me) the height of irresponsibility.

      I purchased my home with no money down, and I'm glad I did.  It has kept our budget stable over the years - the same house we rented in 1999 for a thousand dollars a month now rents for more than twice that, whereas my mortgage payment is only a couple hundred dollars more than our rent used to be.  The value of the house has increased, and we have been very conservative about tapping into that, although we have done so when it made better financial sense to consolidate some debt than not to do so.  Even with the decline in value we have at least 50% equity now, and I'm here to say that if you use good common sense and budgeting a zero-down loan (if you can find one any more) can be a great way to buy your first home.

      'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

      by lcork on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:03:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you had bought in 2005.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lcork

        the story would have been different.

        I'm someone who is always seeing disaster.  I was deeply concern when I bought my first condo in West Side of New York in 1976.  Was I overpaying.  Would I lose my investment.

        The cost for 900 sq feet was $7,800.  Tax and maintainence was all of $135.

        But I was concerned that I was over extending.  Now, or at least last year.  it would have gone for a half million and the person would not have worried because the bank was taking the risk.

        I've taken baths on investments, and never considered asking anyone to make me whole, to correct my mistakes.  It's part of living in a capitialist system, with the ups and downs of the market.

        And with the freedom to live where you please......Gee, I'm starting to get on my soap box.
        Enough.

        •  If you bought a condo on the (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          arodb

          upper west side of manhattan in 1976, we were probably neighbors - well, maybe not, I ended up at 107 & B'way, which was still a little dicey in '76.  Hell, it was dicey when I moved there a few years later.

          You saved yourself from the housing crisis that took place a few years later - one which renderd a dear friend of mine homeless, not because he could not afford the rent but because he kept getting outbid on the "key money".  Remember "key money" the illegal bribe you had to pay to someone or other in order to even get to apply for a vacant appartment?  It was illegal, but everyone did it because the alternative was homelessness - at least it was if you were in a particular income bracket.  

          So, you were probably paying somewhere around 15% interest on that loan, if memory serves, but you were wise and ahead of the market when you purchased.  Did you make a big profit when you sold it?  Did it really matter? If owning your home during that time period meant you could live in the same place year after year (I'm assuming you bought something that fit in your budget), then you did a wise thing.  I realize that people did make huge profits on "flipping" apartments in buildings that were being converted, but sometimes the real value in owning a home is just that - that you own your home.  That period in New York, from the late seventies through the eighties, I got so harassed by my landlord simply because I stayed and stayed instead of moving so he could raise the rent.  If I could have purchased, it would have been such a relief just for the stability factor.

          But now I'm curious - what makes you think that people who take out $500K mortgages don't worry?  You worried when you bought your first place - are you really that different?  You paid a lot of dough back then, but just because prices have gone up, do you think people don't worry about it - if anything I would think they would worry as much or more.  $7800 to you back then probably was enough to keep you awake at night, but contemplating paying half a million dollars for anything is daunting.  I would not assume that the majority of people who borrowed that much didn't worry before they made the purchase.  

          I don't think a bailout is a great idea - although I don't think we're going to get a vote on that issue.  It will probably come, and it will probably benefit the mortgage industry, and I heartily agree with you that for the companies who made bad investments in poorly underwritten loans, they ought to take their lumps.  Individual consumers, families with kids, especially I have concern for, but there too - if they did made poor choices and lived beyond their means, none of us gets to do that forever.

          'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

          by lcork on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 02:04:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  oh and about 2005... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          arodb

          in this area (Northern Virginia) I simply would not have purchased, absent a compelling reason.  The market was clearly out of control, and without a compelling reason to join in a free-for-all blood bath, I wouldn't have entered - and if I had it would have been a futile gesture.

          If the entire scenario had been the same - VA loan, first time buyer, etc.  I wouldn't have gotten a contract accepted anyway.  It was like the housing crisis in NYC in the late 70's - remember the "key money"?  Well, here the "key money" was to put a lot of money down, offer more than the asking price and get into a bidding war with the other buyers, and hopefully hold out until you were the last man standing.  A contract with a VA loan would never have gotten accepted - there are fees that the seller is required to pay on VA loans, and sellers were not inclined to give buyers anything back then, certainly not VA subsidies.  So us little no-money-down VA loan buyers were all sitting out that dance.

          'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

          by lcork on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 02:16:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hey ex Neighbor.... (0+ / 0-)

            My condo, really a coop was 310 West 94th apt 6C.  At the time I bought it the street was full of SROs and marijuana was the odor that permeated the neighborhood.

            I was so concerned I arranged to sleep over the night before closing.  It turned out that that was the only quiet night for years, as my bedroom was on an air shaft where the residences of the welfare hotel would drop their beer bottles---all through the night.

            Luckily I had another room to sleep in and used that room for handball.  I was going to columbia as a grad student and my net pay for being a Teaching assistant was $350 a month.  And get this, I saved money on that income.

            The others in the coop resented how cheap I got the place for since they had paid twice the amount a year or two previously.  NYC was in trouble, and actually was in default on their bonds for a few weeks.

            No one knew whether that area would be the next South Bronx, boarded up and abandoned.

            I overstated my point when I said those who paid a half million would not be concerned.  This was true for some during the peak of the bubble, with Lier loans for actually over full value, so the buyers walked away with cash.  It was a gigantic scam.

            No we know that our dear president had his hand in arranging this from the Spitzer article.  It should be more widely known.

            Peace.

            •  those liers (0+ / 0-)

              This was true for some during the peak of the bubble, with Lier loans for actually over full value, so the buyers walked away with cash.

              should go to jail.  I had someone try to do that with me last year - I told him it was illegal said goodbye.

              I am a realtor, BTW - not sure if you know that, although it's in my profile for all to see.  I got into the business because of our home purchase that started out hideous and was saved by a really top-notch realtor who helped us work through it the right way (as opposed to the guy we originally hired who lied to us repeatedly and lost us the house the first time around).  My goal is always to help people do what's in their best interest, so I maybe have a rosier take on the real estate market than most people right now.

              I was a Juilliard student, so we probably passed each other on the street as I headed downtown and you headed uptown.

              310 West 94th probably turned into a pretty nice area after a few years, but it sounds like you didn't hang out that long.  The building where I lived was kind of a Juilliard/Manhattan School of Music slum.  When I moved in, the building super was a MSM student and her husband, so they gave preference to musicians in the building.  Place sounded like a huge practice room at times.  Very nice people in the building though - even the non-musicians took our caterwaulling with pretty good grace.  After it got sold, however the new owner was kind of a notorious NYC landlord.  Not nice.  I left after ten years, and I still miss it.  Ah well, Northern Virginia is nice in its own way.

              Enough rambling... my lights just flickered - ice storming here today, a little bit at any rate - probably best to shut down the 'puter.

              'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

              by lcork on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:11:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Strange about these dkos discussions... (0+ / 0-)

                people come through as disembodied entities.  All stereotypes of Gender, Race and Age are eliminated and all we have is the message in the diary and comments.

                Linda, so you are a woman, probably in 40s or 50s, and with a background in music.  I'm older than my bio, since I went to Columbia Grad school in my early thirties, never a good mentee to the Professors who just wanted a little respect, that I couldn't give easily to those younger than me.

                Now I'm retired, and spend absolutely too much time on this site. And living in a suburb, it's quite different from just walking my dog on Riverside park and connecting with some fascinating people almost anytime of day.

                Since I was being beat up by everyone last night, I visualized them as men, not as women.  And it was bad.   It was a two valium night, and as much as I felt morally correct, I was hurt.  Damn I'm vulnerable.

                Oh, I forget, this is the thread of the diary by the nice arodb, not the hateful troll of last night. I guess that's one of the saving graces of this site, each new diary gives you a new persona.

                Strange world we have ended up living in, eh?

                •  funny old world (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  arodb

                  And living in a suburb, it's quite different from just walking my dog on Riverside park and connecting with some fascinating people almost anytime of day.

                  so now I guess you just walk your mouse around the netroots connecting with fascinating people any time of day or night... funny how you can still get mugged even here.  

                  Strange about this new world we live in, though.  I have two dear friends from the last company I worked for.  We struck up a friendship in IM conversations during conference calls.  To this day, it's odd to hear their voices or see them in person - something I've only done a couple of times since we live in three different parts of the country.  However, I would know them by their writing absolutely anywhere - especially their snark.  I wonder if that's a good thing, or a bad thing.

                  Here's a link for you to use the next time you feel you've spent a little too much time here.  Think of it as your own personal emergency escape button:

                  GET ME OUT OF HERE!!!

                  Toodles

                  'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

                  by lcork on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:00:53 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  The linear interest/tax deduction (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    arodb

    could be shifted to a non-linear housing cost credit upon a lifetime tax election.

    Say housing cost credit=
     .7*payment*percentage of your income[up to 50%]

    The percentage could be up to 60% for loans in effect when the bill becomes law for a maximum period of five years as elected by the taxpayer. Many people would save the 60% for when they are unemployed.

    This credit would not be refundable, but could come in the form of monthly legal tender checks jointly payable to the mortgagor and a Federal Reserve approved lender sent out around the 20th of the month.

    The federal tax help would be front loaded. With inflation, the percentage and the credit would rapidly shrink.

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