Poll Question -- Are the Clintons Liars?

Right now we're at a point where Obama supporters are now beginning to second guess their negativity about Clinton.

It's becoming at least a little bit clear that Obama will have to do at least a few things here and there to win the support of Clinton supporters.  That he can't take them 100% for granted.

The point at which I knew this campaign would divide the party was when David Geffen called the Clintons liars.  The Clintons remain heroes for a large part of the party, and Obama refused to make a comment one way or the other about Geffen's statement.

So I offer this poll for the community.

•  Will you vote Obama in the GE?

  I will vote for Clinton if she wins the nom.

  by ParaHammer on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:20:23 AM PDT

  •  She won't

    Do you think the Clintons are liars?

    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:21:19 AM PDT

    •  Are they politicians?

      Just sayin.

      by Drewid on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:23:47 AM PDT

      •  That doesn't answer the question

        Directly.

        If your position is that all politicians are liars, do you think Obama is a liar?

        by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:24:37 AM PDT

        •  That depends

          on what the meaning of the word lie is.

          by Drewid on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:44:41 AM PDT

          •  Whadaya?

            Some kind of politician?

            by nolalily on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:49:12 AM PDT

            •  Poll question: Do human beings lie?

              a)yes

              b)no

              c)only politicians

              d)The Clintons never have lied. Ever.

              e)The Obamas never have lied. Ever.

              f)Pie. Pie never lies.

              by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:35:13 AM PDT

        •  You don't have to answer a question

          directly to answer a question sufficiently.

          Q: Do you like broccoli?
          A (direct): I don't like broccoli.
          B (indirect): I hate everything that has to do with the color green.

          by FudgeFighter on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:42:18 AM PDT

      •  BTW

        This guy isn't a liar:
        

        by Drewid on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:51:01 AM PDT

        •  What a damn shame

          Isn't it? The people who tell the truth are treated as lunatics. The ones that peddle what ever it is they want to peddle, they are the media darlings of the moment.

          Would you buy a used car from Mike Gravel or Dennis Kucinich?

          by shpilk on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:18:36 AM PDT

    •  Well I heard Bill say

      that Obama said only Republicans have ideas.
      Since Obama never said that, then I guess that constitutes a lie.

      by ParaHammer on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:24:10 AM PDT

      •  Well then there you go

        Answer the poll question above appropriately.

        by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:25:10 AM PDT

        •  So you agree Bill lied ? n/t

          by ParaHammer on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:26:39 AM PDT

          •  NO

            My question is for you.

            The poll question is for you.

            by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:27:52 AM PDT

            •  how about you

              Do you think the Clintons are liars?  Why should anyone answer a question you are unwilling to answer yourself?

              by fightcentristbias on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:19:26 AM PDT

            •  This one is easy..as far as Bill goes...

              "I did not have sex with that woman"..Heck yes..he lied.

              Unless we back to "it depends upon what the meaning of 'is' is".

              by Morgan Sandlin on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:46:03 AM PDT

    •  Do you think this is a diary? n/t

      by stevej on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:32:44 AM PDT

      •  Yes

        Short one, but it cuts to the chase.

        by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:34:07 AM PDT

        •  Next time post a tip jar

          So I can give you the response I feel this sort of ill-conceived, divisive diary deserves.

          by banjolele on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:39:28 AM PDT

          •  Divisive?

            Who did I offend?

            by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:40:03 AM PDT

            •  E08, better post a tip jar so you don't deny...

              ...the Obamacrats their ultimate DK pleasure -- HR'ing pro-Clinton diarists.

              by Larry Bailey on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:09:36 AM PDT

              •  Sure...that's what it is. Couldn't be that

                he's a little negativity troll could it?

                I had a diary up earlier stating that I would vote for Hillary and this guy highjacked what was a positive to the point that I just deleted it.

                Some people are just deliciously miserable.

                by Morgan Sandlin on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:44:07 AM PDT

          •  Did I call someone

            A liar?

            If you're really worried about people being divisive!!!!!!!!!!!!

            by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:41:00 AM PDT

        •  will you ever answer your own question? n/t

          by MadAsHellMaddie on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:35:54 AM PDT

      •  No. n/t

        by Drewid on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:45:18 AM PDT

    •  I don't think Obama ever thought he could

      take Clinton Supporters granted let alone at 100% nor has he ever said so.  

      I also don't see where any Obama supporters "are now beginning to second guess their negativity about Clinton".  People have their opinons and she has done nothing to sway that one way or another.

      If you have any examples I would love to see them.

      by MadAsHellMaddie on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:35:00 AM PDT

    •  Last time I checked

      there was only one Clinton running for office this year.

      Bill has already admitted lying to the public about his private life. But his veracity isn't relevant to this election.

      Hillary Clinton is not a liar, but she has engaged in hypocritical smear attacks on Obama. That's the kind of politics I want to leave behind us, permanently.

      by elmo on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:46:56 AM PDT

      •  Hillary isn't a liar?

        All those times she defended Bill, pretending to the public that she had no knowledge he'd cheated on her ... repeatedly?

        by 172 IQ on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 07:47:24 AM PDT

        •  no

          I think she was lied to, not lying. But, eh, what difference does it make?

          by elmo on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:54:15 PM PDT

•  pu

  stinky diary....

  by TexMex on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:23:40 AM PDT

•  I'm a Clinton supporter....

  ...and I said I'd support Obama. If Obama and those under him, starts calling the Clinton liars, I've had enough.

  As far as the Obama supporters go; They're already calling Clinton every name in the book and it doesn't sit well with me.

  by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:24:10 AM PDT

  •  agreed the more i see stuff like this

    the more i think i wont vote for him.

    by Zain on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:25:27 AM PDT

    •  Same here- I may vote 3rd party if someone

      else shows up. I am very worried about all the republican supporters, Libertarians etc., and feel like something bad is going to happen. Even this place doesn't feel Democratic anymore and if I could be assured that Obama is a real Democrat I might vote for him, but I haven't felt this uneasy since Bush was illegally elected.

      Just don't know who to trust anymore. I will also return to Independent status.

      "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones"

      by roseeriter on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:29:31 AM PDT

      •  Rosee, don't go there. (n/t)

        by Larry Bailey on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:53:11 AM PDT

      •  I'm an independent and short of making me

        commit a crime wherein I become a felon and cannot vote, I give up my US citizenship, or you kill me I'll be voting for the Democratic nominee.

        Return to Independent status, certainly - agree with that. But I won't be voting for Ralph Nader or Cynthia McKinney.

        I want to defeat Republicans. It's my primary goal. If that means voting for Democrats, so be it. If there's a local race where an Independent has a real chance of winning, and I agree with their political outlook, I won't hesitate, unless voting for them might give the Republican an advantage.

        by shpilk on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 07:05:24 AM PDT

    •  So let me see if I have this straight

      You won't vote for Obama because some random whackjobs write hit pieces against him on DK.

      Is that what you're saying?

      For all you know Republican trolls are on this website trying to divide us by this sort of nonsense, and you're falling for it.
      
      If you must vote for someone other than Obama, I pray you have a better reason than some bloggers hurt your feelings.

      by banjolele on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:32:40 AM PDT

      •  Well, if they are trolls dkos is complicite with

        allowing them such free reign here and like I said my 'trust' meter is out of whack. Besides Obama won't need my vote and my so called status quo label  because I support Hillary doesn't matter any more. At least that is what so many here have told me over and over again.

        "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones"

        by roseeriter on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:39:49 AM PDT

        •  What?

          Have you visited TaylorMarsh recently?

          If I decided to vote against Hillary on the sort of virulent anti-Obama screeds that I've seen there what sort of Democrat would I be? And it's not just the posters there, it's actually Taylor Marsh who comes out and posts every scurrilous rumor and takes every cheap shot she can... but only at Obama. She's a pro-Hillary shill, but I don't let that cloud my judgment regarding voting for Hillary in November should she win the nod.

          You shouldn't either.

          by banjolele on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:46:21 AM PDT

          •  I've never been there. I don't do group-think

            especially based on hatred.

            "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones"

            by roseeriter on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:54:26 AM PDT

        •  Obama doesn't need your vote

          Democrats need your vote to defeat Republicans.

          Look at it that way, if you have to.

          God knows I be preaching this line like crazy if Clinton gets the nomination to Obama supporters.

          by shpilk on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 07:08:53 AM PDT

    •  You are voting for a candidate

      not the supporters (thankfully).

      by stevej on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:33:48 AM PDT

  •  The first day of the campaign

    Obama fundraiser Geffen called the Clintons liars.

    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:26:18 AM PDT

    •  And he was correct

      by gxy2008 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:56:33 AM PDT

  •  They are good liars

    by gxy2008 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:00:35 AM PDT

  •  Can we stop the drama please.

    "If Obama and those under him, starts calling the Clinton liars..."

    Might I suggest you take a visit to Taylor Marsh's site or Hillary is 44 before you start climbing on a pedastal as to what you won't take as a Clinton supporter.

    Both candidates have their worst supporters. Look for their best.

    Unless you saying I should judge all Clinton supporters by the author of this diary?

    by Morgan Sandlin on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:36:47 AM PDT

•  Gotta Go

  to an event in small town NC.
  I would be shocked if Clinton had presence there.

  by ParaHammer on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:25:57 AM PDT

  •  Of Course Not

    Not if you think the Clintons are liars.

    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:27:10 AM PDT

    •  Is this some new game? n/t

      by stevej on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:34:57 AM PDT

      •  Not at all

        It's a straight forward question.

        by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:36:37 AM PDT

        •  Gawd Edgar...thank goodness most people here

          know that you do not represent the majority of Hillary Clinton's supporters.

          Feel free now to continue your tangent.

          by Morgan Sandlin on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:41:50 AM PDT

      •  Not if you think the Clintons are liars. /snark

        by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:38:23 AM PDT

•  What kind of question is that?

  There isn't a politician who ever ran for president who wasn't a liar. If you think politicians always tell the truth, then I want to have what you're smoking.

  by tazz on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:27:20 AM PDT

  •  So that means

    Obama is a liar too, i guess?

    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:28:27 AM PDT

    •  Yes

      by tazz on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:29:12 AM PDT

      •  Cynical Conclusion to the discussion

        I can't say I disagree, except Obama is all about hope, about creating the impression that politicians don't lie.

        by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:30:46 AM PDT

        •  Well those are "just words" n/t

          by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:31:33 AM PDT

          •  Words are

            "Important."

            by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:32:21 AM PDT

            •  Yeah thanks Deval....

              YOUR words we're great.

              by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:34:27 AM PDT

            •  This is pathetic n/t

              by stevej on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:35:33 AM PDT

              •  Don't you mean

                "Pathetic."

                by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:36:06 AM PDT

•  silly diary

  by Lepanto on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:27:54 AM PDT

  •  Not really

    I disagreed with Geffen.

    Others agreed with him.

    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:29:06 AM PDT

    •  Yes really - If this is about Geffen's comment...

      shouldn't that context be posted here too?  I think you are just flaming the Hillary hate flames here.  It's not really constructive, IMHO.

      by AnnieM on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:01:21 AM PDT

•  Bill is a liar

  ...not so sure about Hillary

  by jds1978 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:30:20 AM PDT

•  When Bill

  wagged his finger and said he he didn't do Monica, he was clearly lying.  What's more, he was utterly indignant when he said it.  That was the worst part.

  by bugscuffle on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:32:02 AM PDT

  •  I don't think he was innocent

    But I felt he had a right to be indignant.

    If that's the basis for answering the question, please do so above.

    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:33:38 AM PDT

    •  Are you just being a dick

      to pass time?

      by stevej on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:36:20 AM PDT

      •  No

        It's a legitimate issue according to Geffen.

        Lying is a serious charge I think.

        by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:37:27 AM PDT

        •  Bill Clinton lied under oath

          so, I think, it's safe to assume that Bill Clinton is a liar. Perhaps you should change the question to just Hillary...putting her with Bill is unfair to her.

          by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:41:23 AM PDT

          •  No

            Because the context is Geffen's statements about the Clintons.

            by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:41:57 AM PDT

          •  Btw,

            how long ago did Geffen make that statement? I think it was just about a year ago. Why are you bringing him up now? And who cares what a Hollywood producer says about ex-best-buds?

            by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:44:34 AM PDT

            •  Yes It was a year ago

              Why would someone agree with it then and disagree with it now?

              by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:46:17 AM PDT

              •  Who agreed with it then and disagrees with it now

                I'm not getting your point here...

                by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:48:39 AM PDT

                •  And what Obama supporters are second guessing

                  their negativity about Hillary?

                  I guess I'm asking: what is the context for this diary?

                  by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:50:47 AM PDT

                  •  Good Question

                    Do you think once Obama gets the nomination that he'll have to make any statements about Clinton that will bring her supporters on board?

                    Or will he just expect them to get on board after everything that's happened in this primary?

                    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:53:06 AM PDT

                    •  I do think that if Obama wins the nomination

                      he will reach out to Clinton supporters...not once but many times. I also think if Hillary wins the nomination, she will also reach out to Obama supporters many times too.
                      Probably Gore and Edwards will play a part in the healing that must happen.

                      by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:01:05 AM PDT

                  •  You See

                    My point is that a lot of negative things were said about Clinton.

                    Geffen called the Clintons liars.  Obama didn't say Geffen was wrong!

                    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:54:43 AM PDT

                    •  What if Geffen is right

                      And if he is wrong why is it that Obama should say it is false

                      by gxy2008 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:02:55 AM PDT

                      •  If Geffen is right

                        Then fine.

                        Just say so.

                        Don't say "What if."

                        by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:03:41 AM PDT

                        •  Ok I think Geffen was right

                          by gxy2008 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:07:15 AM PDT

                •  Are there people who would agree with it then

                  But disagree with it now????

                  I might be mistaken in that sort of observation.

                  There was no point.

                  Just an observation.

                  by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:51:20 AM PDT

                  •  So you're wondering if ppl who agreed with Geffen

                    then about the Clintons being liars are now rethinking his statement and seeing that the Clintons aren't liars or are Obama supporters seeing the light?

                    by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:58:22 AM PDT

                    •  No

                      Really I'm wondering if people figured it was a politically motivated statement about a frontrunner.  And supported it in that context.  And now that Obama is going to be the winner I wonder if people are going to back off the accusation made by Geffen!!

                      Are the Clintons really liars?????!!!!!!!

                      I don't think they are.

                      Do you????

                      by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:00:37 AM PDT

                      •  I barely noted the remark that Geffen made...

                        when he made it. I chalked it up to some Hollywood in-fighting, wounded ego/prima donna thing...and I'm an Obama supporter. I don't think anyone had an epiphany against the Clintons when Geffen made his accusation...I mean, it's David Geffen, who the hell cares what David Geffen thinks?

                        As far as the liar thing...I have a big problem with framing the question to include both Hillary and Bill. First, Bill did lie under oath and on TeeVee and Hillary is not responsible for Bill's lies. Secondly, Hillary is running and not Bill, so why join them together like that?

                        by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:06:59 AM PDT

    •  Really?

      Now, I have to go back to work on my State of the Union speech. And I worked on it until pretty late last night. But I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false. And I need to go back to work for the American people. Thank you.

      by bugscuffle on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:47:24 AM PDT

      •  Well, that's technically a lie

        I wish he'd just said "Yes, we had sexual relations.  No, it's none of your business.  Next question?"

        by Plutonium Page on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:52:41 AM PDT

        •  Technically?

          Sheesh.

          by bugscuffle on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:54:19 AM PDT

          •  Ok, it *is* a lie.

            No doubt about it.  I meant that in the first place.

            by Plutonium Page on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:57:27 AM PDT

  •  I thought she did him?

    Wait, how does that work?

    Never mind.

    by Plutonium Page on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:51:44 AM PDT

•  He doesn't need HRC 08 Supporters - He's Winning!

  It seems to me that he's winning the nomination.  And that he will do so without her supporters by definition.

  by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:40:42 AM PDT

  •  Even without her supporters

    In the General Election?

    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:45:14 AM PDT

    •  Only trolls like you are saying that

      And besides, campaign strategists expect to lose a certain percentage of single-issue and personality cult voters.  Most are still loyal to the party.  We really aren't worried about you at this point.

      by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:47:46 AM PDT

      •  Only a Troll Would Say Something like

        My supporters might not support my opponent, but all of my opponent's supporters will support me?

        You're taking my vote for granted.

        Stop.

        Obama has to earn it.

        He can start by making a more definitive statement about something Geffen said a year ago.

        by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:49:50 AM PDT

        •  Hillary Going to Apologize for Weatherman Smear?

          Truth: Hillary has no pull with indies or liberalrepublicans.  It's not trolling to say that.  It's also the truth that HRC 08 hasn't done the work or made the connections with the youth vote.  It's not Obama's fault that her campaign is failing.

          How about Hillary apologize for Singer pushing the weathermen thing to the press yesterday?  How about Bill apologize for race-baiting?

          Hell, how about Bill apologize to Hillary for sucking up all her campaign's O2?

          by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:55:45 AM PDT

          •  Don't waste your time

            Edgar's getting his jollies yanking chains this morning. Just read his comments scattered throughout the thread.

            by banjolele on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:57:11 AM PDT

            •  Oh drat, and me without my coffee EOM

              by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:57:50 AM PDT

            •  Jollies?

              I appreciated SteamPunk's answer.

              It was very direct.  See my response below.

              by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:58:16 AM PDT

          •  Fine Then

            Your position is that you can win the GE without Clinton supporters.

            With all the youths and independents Obama has brought on board, Clinton supporters aren't required.

            That's a very direct answer to the issue I'm bringing up in this diary.

            by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:57:25 AM PDT

            •  When did I say that?

              You aren't very good at this logical argument stuff.

              Luckily, most HRC supporters are smarter than you, and understand that we are fighting for the right to defeat the GOP.  Hillary lost the nomination, Barack won.  Sour grapes folks like you aren't a part of the equation, because you're such a small percentage of the voters.

              Essentially, Hillary 08 voters matter as a group.  Individual sour grapes voters like you do not.

              by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:00:35 AM PDT

              •  Oh

                I see.  If you're a Clinton supporter and Obama still hasn't earned your vote, you're a bitter idiot.

                Thanks for your frank assessment of my position here.

                by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:02:45 AM PDT

                •  "Bitter idiot"

                  Very succinct.  Probably the most lucid thing you've wrote all day, but still based on your own poor reading comprehension/craziness/need to be difficult.  

                  by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:05:33 AM PDT

  •  Really dumb statement n/t

    by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:45:20 AM PDT

    •  It's not dumb, it's math!

      The people who vote for Hillary, by definition, didn't vote for Obama for the nomination.

      by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:48:27 AM PDT

      •  You need them for the general election n/t

        by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:50:59 AM PDT

        •  But that's not what I said

          Last post.  I wrote about the nomination.  Anyone who won't support the nominee in the general I have no idea what to do with.  You can keep arguing with what I didn't say if you like, but I won't respond.

          by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:52:15 AM PDT

          •  I see n/t

            by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:58:58 AM PDT

  •  There you go! You just provided the...

    ...answer to Edgar's next diary.  You're ahead of the curve!

    by Larry Bailey on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:55:56 AM PDT

    •  I try to be, the campaign is, after all

      over.

      by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:56:59 AM PDT

      •  Yes, it's just so over. Time to move on...

        ...to the next toy.

        by Larry Bailey on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:58:12 AM PDT

  •  Have a doughnut

    and that is all I have for you. I won't tell you where I live, because I don't want you to come over and actually pee all over me.

    by dhonig on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:14:38 AM PDT

    •  That was so unwarrented.

      I'm talking about the nomination.  It's a mathematical fact that he is winning without Hillary's voters.  It's time to chill out from the primaries if a perfectly true statement ticks you off.

      by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 07:10:10 AM PDT

      •  You are wrong

        and remarkably unpleasant.  Your words were ugly, and you are only in full retreat because you got called on them.  

        by dhonig on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 07:27:56 AM PDT

        •  I re-up around 4 PM

          If you can't see what another poster, leftbird, saw on second glance, I can't help you.  I'm not in full retreat on anything, and the mathematical soundness of what I said stands.  You apparently aren't sophisticated enough to tell the difference between the nomination and the general election.

          And Puh-lease, a review of your comments proves you to be one of the most unpleasant folks I've run into recently.

          So I will return the loan around 4 PM.  

          by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 07:34:57 AM PDT

          •  What's that?

            a threat of a retaliatory doughnut?  Yawn.  Also, you might want to check the rules about that sort of behavior.  You've not been here very long.  You might not understand.

            by dhonig on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:20:27 AM PDT

            •  Why is your cognitive dissonance my problem?

              since your original doughnut is in itself outside the rules.

              Basically you're being a punitive jerk because you can't deal with the fact that your candidate is losing.  I think it really sucks that you're taking your cognitive dissonance out on me.  It shows poor character, and reading skills, that you choose to interpret a wholly true statement as something other than it is.

              So yes, I would be well within my rights to HR you back.

              by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:26:14 AM PDT

              •  Knock yourself out n/t

                by dhonig on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:48:47 AM PDT

                •  Upon further review, I don't need to bother

                  looking over a month of your comments I see you're doing a fine job of getting yourself ostracized on your own.

                  by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:15:53 AM PDT

                  •  Ostracized?

                    dream on.  Look at my recent diary history for "ostracized."  I don't think that word means what you think it means, unless you think it means a Recommended diary with over 1,000 comments.  If you want irrelevance, looking to me won't help you.  You need to find a mirror.

                    by dhonig on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:26:45 AM PDT

•  Feel like slinging mud? OK

  by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:43:40 AM PDT

•  Obama's Conspiracy to Flouridate Drinking Water

  We must protect our precious fluids.

  by SteamPunkX on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:46:15 AM PDT

•  Edgar, PLEASE delete this diary...

  First of all, Clinton supporters at Daily Kos are supposed to be seen and not read. You're making too big an effort to be read and, I'm sorry, but that is just not acceptable under Clearly Obamacrats Control Kos Yestheydo Rules Of Etiquette.

  Second, if you're going to taunt Obamacrats into declaring themselves anti-Clinton, then why stop with the "are the Clintons liars" question (you've already got 85% on that one). Why not go all the way and post a diary and poll around the question of whether Obamacrats feel they even need the support of HRC people here or in the country generally.  I'm thinking they're so full of confidence (at least here 8 days prior to the start of the Rezko trial) that you'll manage to trap the same 85% of them into proclaiming what some have already been expressing -- that HRC and her supporters can just go to hell and take their GE votes with them!  

  by Larry Bailey on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:51:36 AM PDT

•  Yes - the Clintons are good liars

  by gxy2008 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:54:49 AM PDT

•  All Primates lie... it's in our genes.

  "Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"

  by Dood Abides on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:01:19 AM PDT

  •  but, but..are politicians primates? '; )

    by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:17:50 AM PDT

    •  And what are they doing in my jeans? ; )

      "Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"

      by Dood Abides on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 07:07:57 AM PDT

•  Yes

  "Everybody in politics lies, but they [the Clintons] do it with such ease, it's troubling,"

  D. Geffen

  link.

  by allmost liberal european on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:01:48 AM PDT

•  Brini Maxell's Crown Roast Of Cheese

  Crown Roast of Cheese

  This is delicious with a salad and a good chardonnay or pinot grigio.

  You'll need:

   4 tablespoons butter

   7 1/2 inch-thick slices bread (sourdough is nice, but any kind will do)
   1 cup grated sharp cheddar cheese
   2 eggs
   1 cup milk
   1 teaspoon salt
   1/4 teaspoon paprika
   Pinch of cayenne
   1/2 teaspoon dry mustard

  Preheat the oven to 350°F, and grease your casserole dish (butter will do nicely). Butter all slices of bread. Cut two slices twice on the bias (from corner to corner), creating eight triangles-set these aside. Cube the remaining bread (there should be about 4 cups). Layer the bread cubes in your buttered casserole dish alternately with the grated cheese until you've run out of both cheese and bread.

  In a small bowl, beat the remaining ingredients together and pour over the casserole, then place the triangles of bread around the edge, forming a crown. Bake for 25 minutes and serve immediately.

  Serves 4 as a main dish, 6 as a side

  This recipe is also available I my new book Brini Maxwell's Guide to Gracious Living, available right here on this site!

  by Glinda on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:02:59 AM PDT

  •  Now THAT'S a recipe you can Xerox! (n/t)

    by Larry Bailey on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:04:31 AM PDT

•  Compassion is great...

  but sometimes it turns into blindness. Obama is far from perfect. If you research enough, you will see that all politicians have their baggage.

  Now that Obama is considered the frontrunner be prepared; his passed will come out of hiding. The shine will come off. Politics is an ugly business.

  by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:07:14 AM PDT

  •  I've never met an Obama supporter who thinks he

    is perfect...that's a meme put forth by Republicans and Hillary supporters in order to denigrate those who support Obama.

    by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:38:52 AM PDT

    •  You made my point not admitting that some...

      Obama supporters take it to far, but the diaries that are posted by many Obama supporters(not all) shows how it really is.

      by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 07:53:05 AM PDT

•  Thanks Folks

  93 votes are in.

  82% of the voters said "Yes," the Clintons are liars.

  There may be a subset of those who also think Obama is a liar (simply because all Politicians are liars).

  What's leftover should be considered Obama supporters who think the Clintons are liars.

  Thanks for your input.

  Happy General Election!

  by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:07:45 AM PDT

  •  Happy Party

    Unity!!!!!!!!!!!

    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:12:48 AM PDT

    •  This is kind of smug.....

      Baiting the Clinton haters and then talking about Unity....how does fanning the flames help?

      by AnnieM on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:14:57 AM PDT

      •  Good point.

        A better question would be: Have you ever lied? because as Dood pointed out, everyone has lied at one point or another. Asking if "The Clintons" (as if they're one person) are liars is silly.

        by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:24:14 AM PDT

•  If the shoe fits

  What the hell is this anyway?  Even if you believe the Clintons are liars, which is pretty well documented by the way, you'd better say they aren't or we won't support the Democratic nominee in the general election?  

  This is beyond stupid.  

  by Sun dog on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:11:13 AM PDT

•  Can Bill Clinton

  Practice law any longer?

  by pletzs on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:16:08 AM PDT

•  Edgar..You have a Diary 'support Hillary Clinton"

  The complete diary Title is "Why I support Hillary Clinton"

  Who are you?

  by leftbird on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:16:54 AM PDT

  •  I think he proved that this is no longer a blog

    for democrats, and I agree with him.

    "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones"

    by roseeriter on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:22:21 AM PDT

    •  oh puleeze. Have you ever lied?

      Has your significant other ever lied? Has your child, boss, best friend, next door neighbor ever lied? Has Edgar ever lied?
      What a dumb ass poll, diary and comment.

      by byteb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:26:03 AM PDT

      •  You're right, the big tent is full of lies

        and liars

        "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones"

        by roseeriter on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:27:50 AM PDT

        •  You expect too much

          Power corrupts. The Clintons have been politics for some 35 years, as Hillary is always willing to remind us. I think given that, both her and Bill are relatively clean, compared to many of their colleagues.

          Barack hasn't had a chance to do much more than dip his toe into the cesspool, yet there are already troubling signs he too is surrounded by the incredible amounts of grease required to make government work.

          It's the old saw "you'll never eat sausage again if you only saw how it was made".

          Democrats generally have fewer liars, and even a few of  the remarkably rare honest politician so at least it's a step in the right direction.

          by shpilk on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:51:52 AM PDT

          •  Democrats have fewer liars, my point is

            dkos is lying because it use to be a democratic blog but it isn't unless one thinks like kos.

            And it will be a cold day in hell before I trust any republicans who coyly say they are voting for democrats for the right reasons when mostly it is because they hate Hillary, not because they like Obama. That worries me.

            "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones"

            by roseeriter on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:58:28 AM PDT

•  This diary is a good example of how...