Daily Kos

Obama and Patriotism

Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:52:12 AM PDT

This diary is an effort at brainstorming a response to the coming Rightwing meme.

You can find a whiff of it here fronted this Sunday am on MSNBC:

Obama may face grilling on patriotism
No flag pin, no hand over his heart: Is he exposed?

Sen. Barack Obama's refusal to wear an American flag lapel pin along with a photo of him not putting his hand over his heart during the National Anthem led conservatives on Internet and in the media to question his patriotism.

Now Obama's wife, Michelle, has drawn their ire, too, for saying recently that she's really proud of her country for the first time in her adult life.

Conservative consultants say that combined, the cases could be an issue for Obama in the general election if he wins the nomination, especially as he runs against Vietnam war hero Sen. John McCain.

Naturally originating from the bowels of the far right wing press, MSNBC is the first that I've seen carrying this into the MSM, but they won't be the last. Two helpful players in all this nonsense are Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga)

And Roger Stone...Yes, that Roger Stone.
Per TPM Cafe:

On Friday night's Bill Maher show, Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA) claimed that Barack Obama refuses to say the pledge of allegiance to the American flag.

The AP's Nedra Pickler asks disgraced Republican dirty-trickster Roger Stone for his opinion. Stone you'll remember is the guy who got caught making threatening phone calls to New York Gov. Spitzer's (D-NY) elderly father and last month set up an anti-Hillary group with the acronym C-U-N-T.

Surprisingly enough, Stone thinks the answer is yes.

Both Stone and Kingston are rotten sources for this, of course, so the question becomes why are suddenly words from this fetid crowd becoming worthy of ink?

The answer is perceived balance. I've been watching MSNBC for a week or so and their coverage seems literarily one day hit Obama, the other day hit HRC.

It's silly and childish but I think their idea of balance is to write hit jobs in equal portion for either candidate. In any case, it will be coming down the pike so we might as well learn how to turn this on it's head.

First, I think we affirm love of country and separate that from symbol. For example, "I love my country, I don't need a flag pin to show it. My love is here (touching heart), not in some pin on my label. I've seen too many scoundrels hide behing the symbols of patriotism, while doing great damage to this country. You'll see many Republicans who wear this pin, supporting an administration that has cut funding for Veteran's benefits, left our poor and elderly without healthcare, and left a city to drown."

Something like that.

As to Michelle's pride thing, again, separate pride of country from love of country.

Example:

"I've always loved my country, there's not a day goes by that I don't love my country. But, like Michelle, I've seen my country do things I'm not proud of. We love our children, but their are days when we are not proud of them. If we can't understand that distinction, how can be begin to correct it?"

Last I'd say it's time we question the nature of what the Republicans and, in particular, far right wingers mean by 'patriotism'.

If it's simple love of country, great, we're all on the same team. But if it means,  starting wars we don't need to start with a refusal to talk with other countries out of a ill formed sense of grandeur and pride--that's not patriotism, that's delusional. The Christian community has a wonderful word for this kind of behavior--it's not patriotism. It's hubris.

I'm sure others here will have some great ideas too. Have at it!

Tags: Patriotism, Obama, Michelle, Really Proud (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 54 comments

  •  Tips for the brainstorm express (5+ / 0-)

    You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

    by DelicateMonster on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:52:31 AM PDT

    •  I Pledge Allegiance (0+ / 0-)

      I Pledge Allegiance,
      To never vote republican again,
      And to spit in their faces,
      For ruining this country and defiling the Constitution,
      And lying to the American people,
      They're full of shitsiville,
      With corruption and cronyism for their friends.

    •  One thing just occurred to me (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sharon Wraight

      is that we turn this on it's head by saying the obvious:

      Obama is a Great Patriot.

      A patriot who organized in Chicago to effect change at the street level rather than take a cushy law firm gig.

      A patriot who voted against a devastating war even when it was politically dangerous.

      A patriot who refuses to insult rivals as a way to win, and instead, counts on the affections of thousands of citizens across the country.

      A patriot who wants to make all Americans pride to be Americans again, not just the select few who decide to wear a pin.

      You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

      by DelicateMonster on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:25:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hello President McCain! (0+ / 0-)

      As to Michelle's pride thing, again, separate pride of country from love of country.

      Example:

      "I've always loved my country, there's not a day goes by that I don't love my country. But, like Michelle, I've seen my country do things I'm not proud of. We love our children, but their are days when we are not proud of them. If we can't understand that distinction, how can be begin to correct it?"

      It would almost be worth it to lose the presidency to watch the shit storm that this would kick up.

      Unfortunately it wouldn't last very long.  Obama would either be hounded out of the race or would lose worse than McGovern did.

      •  You think it's impossible for a presidential (0+ / 0-)

        candidate to say this country has done some things he isn't proud of...

        the suspension of habeas corpus?
        extraordinary rendition?
        torture?
        illegal wars and invasions?

        WTF? If a president can't say something this fucking obvious then we don't live in a democracy. We live in some spin off delusional land filled with jack ass spin doctors, political operatives and apparatchiks, worthy of the late and not so great Soviet Union.

        Dude, if what you say is true, it's not time to keep our head down.

        It's time for a fucking revolution.

        You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

        by DelicateMonster on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:56:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Inadvisable, dangerous, and unnecessary... (0+ / 0-)

          No one expects you to be proud of everything - I don't think anyone, right or left, was proud of Bill Clinton and the stained dress.

          But don't talk about what you are not proud of... talk about what you are proud of.

          1. A 230 year experiment in democracy that has a beacon to the world
          2. A history of opposing dictatorships and fascism that includes defeating the Nazis and Imperial Japanese, protecting South Korea, our noble failed attempt in Vietnam, the liberation of Grenada, the protection of Bosnia and Kosovo (including shepherding that tiny state to independence), and finally, whatever our differences about wiseness, methods and execution of the war, saving Afghanistan from the Taliban and Iraq from Saddam Hussein.
          3. A commitment to equality for all people of whatever race or sex.

          If you can't keep going on that stuff until your listener falls asleep you aren't qualified to be president.

          WTF? If a president can't say something this fucking obvious then we don't live in a democracy. We live in some spin off delusional land filled with jack ass spin doctors, political operatives and apparatchiks, worthy of the late and not so great Soviet Union.

          Dude, if what you say is true, it's not time to keep our head down.

          It's time for a fucking revolution.

          A revolution against the majority of the people who disagree with you?

          Hello Mr. Fascist.

          •  Are you one of that majority (0+ / 0-)

            that takes pride in:
            the suspension of habeas corpus?
            extraordinary rendition?
            torture?
            illegal wars and invasions?

            Or refuses to note that it is not exactly an honorable mark on our country that we participate in this kind of behavior? Really?

            ...

            And this is some kind of idiotic joke, right?

            our noble failed attempt in Vietnam

            Ha, fucking ha. You and Will Marshall need to form a wanking club together. He's the only other 'Democrat '  I know stupid enough to swallow that bit of intellecutal masturbation and smile.

            the suspension of habeas corpus?
            extraordinary rendition?
            torture?
            illegal wars and invasions?

            And you call me a fascists because I happen to think we ought to be denouncing this kind of behavior, not admiring it?

            Pot meet black meet Kettle.
            Hello, Good German.

            You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

            by DelicateMonster on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 06:53:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Our source of pride... (0+ / 0-)

            ...comes from the progress our like-minded fellow American advanced. As for your grasp of history, feeble as ever...

            “In a democracy, after 100 years you have to let your slaves go. And after 150 years, you have to let your women vote.”  --Kurt Vonnegut

            "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch." --FDR

            Your beliefs perpetuate the "they hate us for our freedom" meme that led to this disastrous diagnosis and cure now being carried out in Iraq. Because we have done so much good in the world, it must mean we could never do any evil.

            To call Bush a lying sack of shit would be to slander idle bags of fertilizer.

            by turdraker on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:21:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  It's best to ignore bullshit (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rolfyboy6, pvlb

    not address it.

    Just step around it.

    It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

    by Fishgrease on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:53:11 AM PDT

  •  "Pinhead" Patriots (3+ / 0-)

    I wrote a post called "Pinhead 'Patriots regarding this moronic thing.
    Copy it , if you wish.

    As Abby Hoffman, said..."Steal This Book".

  •  Jack Kingston is the worlds biggest idiot (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DelicateMonster

    seriously, I defy anyone to name a bigger moron that this douchebag. He's just so fucking stupid beyond all belief.  

  •  We have months to beat this to death (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rolfyboy6, DelicateMonster

    There will be patriotic videos out the wazoo, ad buys targeting the believe-anything mouth breathers. You'll see so much of this you will plotz.

  •  He's responded already (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DelicateMonster, myrealname

    claiming patriotism is not about wrapping yourself in flag, but your actions as a leader. His actions speak volumes as compared to McCain who thinks Torture is a wonderful tool, keep us in Iraq for the next 1,000 years, panders to religious fanatics, has lobbyist running his campaign, and on and on.

  •  This is one of a few long needed conversations (7+ / 0-)

    Look, anyone who thought that a Barack Obama nomination wouldn't bring some intense conversations about who we are as a nation, was fooling themselves.

    We're going to discuss race.

    We're going to discuss religion.

    And we're going to discuss what it means to be an American -- and a patriot.

    No one should be afraid of that conversation.

    Barack Obama says the Pledge, leads the Pledge.

    Barack Obama doesn't put his hand over his heart during the National Anthem because that is what he was taught since the age of two and by the way, that is what is in all the Military Handbooks on the subject.

    There is Patriotism and there is FALSE patriotism.

    I'm not afraid to engage in that conversation with anyone.  I don't think Barack Obama is afraid to engage in that conversation with anyone - even John McCain.

    Hell, John McCain, despite his apparent selling of his soul to the extremists in his party knows the truth on these subjects so if he tries to argue on their side, he's going to look phony, just as Clinton looks phony when she says Obama's an empty suit or any number of her other bullshit arguments.

    Obama's not afraid and neither should anyone else be.  Learn the facts and have them at the ready.

    "Screw em." --HILLARY CLINTON "What Washington needs is adult supervision." --BARACK OBAMA

    by broui on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:02:43 AM PDT

    •  Agreed. I don't think you just 'walk away' (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      indybend, Sharon Wraight

      from this conversation. It's needed. Been needed since Ronald Reagan, frankly.

      One of the risks--and it is a risk--is that Obama is counting on the good sense of the American people to see through this nonsense. That is actually an act of political courage far greater than slapping a pin on your chest which addresses nothing, asks nothing, and questions nothing.

      You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

      by DelicateMonster on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:08:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  thanks.... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DelicateMonster, Sharon Wraight

      this is a real issue.  All those who call it bullshite probably don't remember just how Bush I got elected on flag burning and the pledge- making Dukakis look like some sort of crazy radical.  That idea was basically crazy.  Bush I was in cahoots with lying traitors, selling out our country in Iran Contra scandal.  And he sold himself as law and order, the successor of an administration that lyied and shredded and violated the law.  The very fact that Ollie North is on TV and radio and not jail, and that Admiral Poindexter is in this administration should tell any sensible person to run, run to the flag and the Pledge.  

      Kitty Dukakis was accused of burning a flag while protesting the war.  Dukakis was opposed to mandatory recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in schools- something which was supported by the Supreme Court in years past as religious freedom.  Lots of religions don't like pledging allegiance to an nationalist symbol.

      Wake up people- these issues resonate in places like West Virginia and Kentucky and Idaho.  These are the wavering states we need to win a few of.  These people like McCain and think he is a rebel and a hero.  Swiftboating McCain won't help with this- we need to present Obama as representing a better future.  Not a less patriotic future.  I know they do because people tell me thats why they could vote for Hillary Clinton and not Obama- because she voted against flag burning.  

      The flag burners recently in Berkeley made me sick to my stomach- what is wrong with them that they have to do something just to had ammunition to the right?  Sure they should have the freedom to do it, but I should have the freedom to be repelled by their action and notice its political stupidity in an election year.  Kos is a Berkeley liberal in their book.  Where is the comment on this?

      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

      by murrayewv on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:24:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  voters in ky (0+ / 0-)

        You are absolutely right that these issues are the first things on the mind of people where I live in western KY.  Kentucky has gone Republican repeatedly based largely on these kinds of things.  But they just elected a Democratic governor after being enormously disappointed in the "moral values" Republican they just had.
        So the time is ripe for a change.

        I did hear in MSM somewhere that challenges on patriotism won't come from McCain or the mainstream Republican party, they will come from outside groups.

        •  I think they will too.... (0+ / 0-)

          those e-mail campaigns and such.  A few folks get the e-mails and then print them up and circulate them.  There was an effective campaign against Target for not sponsoring a Viet Nam traveling wall.  Target had to work hard to clarify their position of not sponsoring national issues, but local issues.  It was really nasty.

          I want Obama to answer these issues directly and honestly.  

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 11:43:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Problem is, this issues is not about those facts (0+ / 0-)

      those facts are an excuse to push Barack and Michelle into the "other" pile.  GOP and whites still uncomfortable with blacks in power can label them as "unpatriotic" and therefore not one of us instead of having to say they're not one of us because they are not white.

      This is not about patriotism, but good old racism. And shame on any legitimate new source that perpetuates these ugly rationalizations in the name of "balanced" reporting.

  •  A lapel pin and a hand on a heart does not a (0+ / 0-)

    patriot make..those are only superficial indications..we have seen plenty of members of Congress with pins all over their lapels who have engaged in crimes, war profiteering, fear mongering, war mongering and propaganda...

    •  Very true (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DelicateMonster, Sharon Wraight

      and it's old advice to wrap yourself in the flag.  Buy a pin.  Cheap on line.  See, for some morans it's the form, and they can't understand anything else.  this one's easy.  Pretty soon Obama's going to be getting on that Presidential helicopter with the Marine guard saluting as he does so.  He's going to be wrapped in this stuff.  Might as well get used to it.

      •  In Obama's case, I think his patriotism is like (0+ / 0-)

        mine...our system if allowed to remain, offers people a true protection from the awesome power of the state..that was a first in the history of modern mankind where we see that in Russia, serfs were bought and sold and tied to the land...where royalist empires could execute people at will..torture people..exile people.. send them into endless wars to make the King wealthy in land and treasure...ooopss..sounds kind of like what Bush is about..hmm

  •  That says it all right there (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DelicateMonster

    Sen. Barack Obama's refusal to wear an American flag lapel pin

    Refusal?  Who made the demand?    

    He was caught not wearing a loyalty flag pin.  For some reason he was questioned about it.  Has every politician not wearing a pin been questioned about their patriotism?  I there is a law or something?  Does the law only apply to, er well, certain types of politicians?  

    If there is an indictment here, we've got to turn it onto the freaks who are trying to push American Fascism.  

  •  The Republican trick is to . . . (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DelicateMonster

    . . .create a trope and reinforce it and reinforce it until it sticks.  Expect much more of this.  They think Obama is going to be the nominee.  If you think Obama is just going to be elected by acclimation, you have not been watching the last two presidential elections.
    You cannot ignore this stuff, you have to attack it straight on.  The truth means nothing to them.  They are looking to create a gut impression in the minds of people who otherwise would not be paying close attention to the candidates.  You have to give it back to the Republican slime machine --with some to spare.

    "Resisting Assimilation"

    by waztec on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:07:14 AM PDT

  •  I served my country proudly and have never (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    indybend, DelicateMonster, skrekk

    worn a flag pin on my lapel in my life. I never put my hand over my heart during the national anthem or pledge of allegiance. I guess I should be drawn and quartered too. Displays of over patriotic symbolism is like going to church and ripping someone for not knowing all the words to every prayer in Latin in the Catholic Church. Much ado about nothing.

    You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

    by tazz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:08:28 AM PDT

  •  He needs to address (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DelicateMonster, Sharon Wraight

    this now in some fashion. The patriotism stuff is out there. (The GE audience is different from the primary one).  

  •  They are being stupid .. (3+ / 0-)

    I see a opening remark by Obama.. which begins I pledge allegiance to America....

  •  This is an issue? (0+ / 0-)

    HAHAHAHAHA!

    Just listen to his speech at the Convention. Case closed.

  •  I am already hearing this shit from my (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Sharon Wraight

    "Independent" but conservative family members.

    Be the change you want to see in the world.

    by empathy on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:16:12 AM PDT

  •  Whenever someone asks (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DelicateMonster

    see these photos

  •  "The GOP Thinks You Are Stupid" (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    indybend, DelicateMonster

    I think this is good frame - that the GOP is being cynical, and that it's based on being stupid.

    But blame it on the GOP. It's using the GOP projection technique against them.

  •  Patriotic symbols (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Sharon Wraight

    served the USSR well.

  •  The best way is to vigourously fight these memes (0+ / 0-)

    Via surrogates and inthe media.
    Point out just how stupid they are!

  •  Where is your Aids Walk Ribbon!!??? (0+ / 0-)

    Hey!  Why aren't you wearing the ribbon!!!

Permalink | 54 comments