Daily Kos

Nader, don't you realize that you've won? (IRV) (from an ex-supporter)

Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:59:26 AM PDT

I have been a Nader defender on DKos. I hate it when people lump Nader supporters in with Bush supporters, and when they forget what Gore/Leiberman 2000 was really like, or forget what "safe state" means. I tried to vote for Nader twice ('96 and '00, in '96 my voter registration was purged on some technicality so I couldn't vote). I do not regret those choices.

Yet this is just pitiful. No, not because he's "only hurting Democrats". If that's what he wants to do then that is his right, though I won't support him. But because he's only hurting his OWN stated principles, the principles which got him my vote twice.

I have a very specific reason for saying this.

The two-party system is broken. Every single election, millions vote for the "lesser evil" in their view, and millions more don't vote. The only range of opinions that counts is the space between the two frontrunners for whatever race it is. (You feeling me yet, Edwards supporters?) If you do get mad enough to vote for a third option, your vote essentially goes uncounted. I happen to like one of my options this time around, but that doesn't mean I forget what it feels like when I don't.

There is an easy fix. Voting reform. IRV - a great system - is getting real traction, and even better systems like Range Voting (with ballots which encourage approval-style range voting), or Condorcet voting, are the topic of books which people are reading more and more. The basic idea behind all of these systems is that I can vote for my true favorite candidate, and still vote for the lesser evil as a backup option. (The systems have minor differences as to when and how the backup option would count, but all conform to "one person, one vote" and they would give the same results in almost all cases.) Ralph Nader made IRV a major plank in his platform in 1996 and 2000, and it got him my vote.

And guess what? Both Obama and McCain have taken vocal positions supporting IRV. McCain recorded an ad in Alaska (where the third party is Libertarian, and the local League of Women Voters shamefully went against the national League in opposing the measure for tawdry Democratic gains). And  in 2002, Obama, as an Illionois State Senator, was the primary sponsor on a proposed state constitutional amendment that would have enacted Instant Runoff Voting for
primary elections
. (How's that for the wonkish substance that we know and love?)

Ralph Nader, I will still defend what you were. But there is no defending what you have become.

(Some geekish details: For the presidential election, the electoral college would actually HELP make this reform easier, because the battle can be fought one state at a time. As with the National Popular Vote movement, each state could pledge its electors to the voters true expressed preference (as determined by some preferential voting scheme - Range Voting, Condorcet, or IRV would all work) IF states representing 50%+1 of the electors have made the same pledge. This is an interstate compact and enforcable under the constitution.)

Poll

You should have a poll

7%4 votes
36%19 votes
13%7 votes
42%22 votes

| 52 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: IRV, Ralph Nader, Barack Obama, John McCain, voting reform, range voting, condorcet voting, vote-123 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 29 comments

  •  Tips for voting reform (8+ / 0-)

    because talking about Nader only saddens me now.

    Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

    by homunq on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:59:54 AM PDT

    •  Here's a tip: This site is for electing Dems. (7+ / 0-)

      Nader's run reduces those chances. Ergo, promoting Nader's candidacy at this key juncture in American history is not only insane, but contrary to the purpose of this site.

      I'd love a good debate about changing our plurality system to IRV, and letting more parties emerge, etc. etc.

      Now is NOT the time.

      John McCain: Getting Terrorists off America's Lawn since 1880

      by pat208 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:07:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Did you even read my diary? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        greeseyparrot, BKuhl

        I understand you're mad. But it's irrational to attack somebody for agreeing with you.

        Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

        by homunq on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:11:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I did read it. As I said in my response... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          quaoar, BlackBox

          ... it's badly timed.

          I know all about STV/IRV, Condorcet, Borda, etc., and we need a good dose of reform in the way we make our choices.

          Today's Nader announcement has brought out a lot of Nader Nuts who are trying to make a case that it's either a good thing in and of itself, or that it will lead to good things for our ticket.

          I could not disagree more. For the moment, we need to establish very clearly that Nader's choice is extremely dangerous.

          Let's get our White House in order, then start a real dialog on changing systems. In the mean time, IMHO, ixnay on all things adernay. It only feeds the putz's enormous ego.

          John McCain: Getting Terrorists off America's Lawn since 1880

          by pat208 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:16:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Read it again (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            ripzaw, Soundpolitic, BKuhl

            I agree with you.

            But the fact that Obama is KICKING ASS and is a SUPPORTER OF AN ISSUE I CARE ABOUT is a reason not to talk about that issue? I don't quite follow.

            Or Nader is so evil that you can't even use him as a hook?

            Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

            by homunq on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:19:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nader is so much trouble that... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Soundpolitic

              ... I would use him as a fishhook on my next deep sea shark hunt, but not now. Not before November.

              I strongly agree that Nader makes a great Exhibit A for election system reform.

              I strongly agree that if we employed IRV in more significant elections - Presidential primaries and generals for sure - we would increase the number of competitive parties.

              But c'mon, this is basic stuff, Politics 101: Keep the eyes on the Prize. This election is ours to lose. The GOP is cornered and dangerous, and will try everything. EVERYthing. We lose it if we don't throw everything into November.

              John McCain: Getting Terrorists off America's Lawn since 1880

              by pat208 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:23:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Talking about something good about Obama hurts? (0+ / 0-)

                That's what I don't understand.

                Oh, because I gave McCain credit too? OK: McCain is a menace, he only did it for partisan reasons and to look like a maverick, he is an asshole and a hypocrite too. And I mean it. Satisfied?

                Look, I agree, we have to keep fighting. But if we lose our heads, it only makes us look bad. That means we have to be fair. And we have to remember that the candidates are the means, the issues are the ends, not vice versa.

                Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                by homunq on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:28:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  There we go - let's end with agreement... (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  dirkster42

                  ... on this fundamental point:

                  And we have to remember that the candidates are the means, the issues are the ends, not vice versa.

                  John McCain: Getting Terrorists off America's Lawn since 1880

                  by pat208 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:32:51 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  We've Welcome Republicans Who Have Seen (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                greeseyparrot, dirkster42, KingCranky

                the light; we've welcomed Libertarians who have decided to vote Democratic. But Greens are only fit for eternal damnation?

                IMO, we Democrats ourselves have to take some of the blame for the rise of the Green Party - after Jimmy Carter's administration, too many Democratic Congress critters seem to have abandoned social justice and environmentalism and acted "republican Lite' (like the Democrats we are now primarying) in their quest to cling to power. Hence the DNC's trying to get Al Gore to be everything to everyone in 2000 instead of being the principled leader we have since known him to be. Oh, and where was that 50-State strategy?

                To suggest that we can't multitask and still win this election is, I think, somewhat disempowering. And the diarist IS talking about an issue that Obama supports, so more power to him.

                "You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -Abbie Hoffman

                by Uthaclena on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:08:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Fool me once (0+ / 0-)

        Oddly enough, my gut feeling is that Nader has already done all the damage he can to the Dems.  I feel like the protest votes he gets this time will come from McCain as much as from our candidate.  

        Just sayin.  

        How many wrongs does it take to make a right?

        by pdknz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:16:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If I had voted for Ralph Nader and helped elect (0+ / 1-)

      Hidden by:
      tle

      TGDSOBGWB, I would be said too.  But I would certainly not tell anyone!  Pissant!

      A private gyn office offering full gyn services including abortion care to 18 weeks.

      by william f harrison on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:09:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah (5+ / 0-)

    But how can he turn down all those right wing donors that want him to run?

  •  No, he doesn't realize it. (6+ / 0-)

    His candidacies were never about advancing a platform anyway--they were about sating his ego and exaggerated sense of self-righteousness.

    Underneath the image of the tireless public defender was always a Machiavellian shadow fully willing to jettison the public good for his personal satisfaction. 2000 proved that for anyone with eyes.

  •  Love the poll, and your thought process (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    greeseyparrot

    I invite you to join the conversation at my blog.

    And on my cross-post at the Albany project, where I did, in fact, catch up to my slow wits to include a poll I think you may enjoy as well.

    Tipped and rec'd

    Three Just Words: "Join, Or Die." -Franklin, 1754; "Yes, We Can!" -Obama, 2008.

    by Soundpolitic on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:08:46 AM PDT

  •  Nader's announcement exposes what all (7+ / 0-)

    but his most ardent supporters have understood for years. His only interest is self promotion. He needs a megaphone and this is the only one left to him. He will take money from anyone to enable him to prune his ego and cares not a whit about the consequences for progressive ideas or the American people.

    The good news is that most people are on to him. He will be lucky to get a tenth of the 0.3% of the vote he received in 2004. Normally, I would have pity for a person who has tarnished what could have otherwise been a proud legacy. But since he has been working diligently at destroying that legacy for over a decade,  he is not even deserving of pity.

  •  You wrote in your diary ... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dirkster42, TazExprez

    Ralph Nader, I will still defend what you were. But there is no defending what you have become.

    and earned a rec' from me ...

  •  Won what? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    homunq

    Nader doesn't give a shit about IRV.  All he cares about his feeding his own massive ego.

    •  Well pardon me... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      greeseyparrot

      ... for rhetorically giving him the benefit of the doubt for not being a hypocrite.

      heh. Rec'ed

      (Not the only hypocrite I've voted for, by a long shot. Really looking forward to helping elect someone who ISN'T for the first time in my life...)

      Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

      by homunq on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:01:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  'IRV' was the hook for me, not Nader. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    greeseyparrot, dirkster42

    I'm a Democrat.  I vote for Democrats (except one time, in a local election with no Democrat running).  And I strongly support IRV.  I would like to see more diaries on it.  I'm sick of voting for the least horrible candidate.  Obama would have been 4th or 5th on my list, with Clinton at the bottom of the Democrats.  I still wonder who would have won if there had been no primaries, just an IRV election, in 1992, 1996, and 2000.

    I had no idea that Obama (and McCain!) supported it.  I don't see that McCain's support means anything, but Obama could actually help move the idea forward.  Good info.  Thanks.

    I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

    by tle on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:15:26 AM PDT

    •  You should check out Range Voting (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dirkster42

      for the moment, IRV has the momentum, but Range Voting is even slightly better.

      Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

      by homunq on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:22:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I like the Range Voting approach, (0+ / 0-)

        but in this case, I think the perfect (or better) is the enemy of the good.

        However, if Range Voting is implemented, I'd like it to include negative numbers.  Might result in the blandest person getting elected, but that's better than electing someone like Bush.

        I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

        by tle on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:55:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hope not (0+ / 0-)

          Fighting about which way of fighting less is better, when we know both of them work, would be really stupid. That whole mentality - that the perfect and the good can't be friends - is so current-system.

          Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

          by homunq on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:54:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

Permalink | 29 comments