Daily Kos

Looks Like Another Year For Nader

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:01:51 AM PDT

I start every political season with one basic assumption: I do not like any of the candidates.

Democrat, Republican, or other--they really have to win me over because I assume they are all unprincipled, unintelligent, weak, crooked, or just plain evil.  The last candidate I was even moderately excited about supporting was Peter Camejo, the Green candidate for governor in California during the great recall that swept Arnold to power.

I wasn't always like this.  I was raised in a very actively Democratic family, with the understanding that of course I must always vote, and of course, I must always vote Democrat.

So when I turned 18 in 1996, I was ecstatic about voting to re-elect Bill Clinton.  

Then, in 2000, like a good daughter of the Democratic party, despite my lack of enthusiasm, I learned about voting for the lesser of evils, and I cast my vote for Gore.  

Which was not as easy as you'd expect.  I was a student at UC Santa Cruz, where the question was not whether to vote Bush or Gore, but whether to vote Gore or Nader.  And believe me, I experienced my (un)fair share of attacks from my fellow students who delighted in repeating their mantra: Bush and Gore Make me Want to Ralph.  (It was sort of like the "Yes We Can" of 2000.)

Still, I did my Democratic duty, held my nose, and voted for Gore, and all the other Democrats on the ticket.  

But then something happened to me.  I read Nader's book, Crashing the Party, about his 2000 campaign, and I started to understand that unconditional loyalty to a political party is not democracy.  There is more to voting than looking for the "D" on the ballot.  Do I really want a democracy based on choosing the lesser of two evils?  

No.  I decided that I did not.  I decided that from now on, candidates have to do more to win me over than put a "D" next to their names.

In 2004, I voted for Nader.  It was simple, really.  Kerry voted for the war, and alienated me on a host of other issues, so despite my desire to see Bush thrown out of office, Kerry was not the answer for me.  

I folded in 2006, though.  Straight Democratic ticket.  I suppose my Democratic upbringing got the better of me.  Or maybe I believed the Democrats in Congress when they said, "Give us the majority, and we'll give you back your country."

Well.

That hasn't really worked out as planned.  For two years, I've watched the Democrats in Congress capitulate to Bush and the Republicans, and somehow, they've had the audacity to blame the voters because we didn't give them a big enough majority.  Like it's our fault.  Like it's my fault.  Like they'd stand up and fight if only there were more of them.  

Sorry, Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid, but I'm not taking the fall for this one.  Not after you've spent two years proving to me that maybe that the "D" doesn't make much of a difference after all.

Then, last October, a funny thing happened.  I was listening to one of the Democratic debates.  And despite my self-imposed voting rules of 2004, which precluded even considering voting for anyone who'd supported the war, I found myself being persuaded by...Hillary Clinton.

She was the smartest person on the stage.  She knew more than anyone else.  She was tough as nails.  She's been to hell and back, and she's still standing.  She seemed like just the kind of fighter I'd hoped the Democrats would be.

And no matter how polarizing people say she is, there is no doubt in my mind that her election would not invoke pity from people around the world, or cause the London Daily Mirror to ask, as it so succinctly did in 2004, "How Can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?"

I thought about her support of the war, and realized that it wasn't the issue for me that it had been in 2004.  Every Democrat on the stage wanted to end the war.  

Over the past five months, I've listened to her.  I've paid attention.  I've remembered what it was about her that I admired and respected back in 2000, why I thought one day she'd make an excellent president.  Intelligent, knowledgeable, and yes, experienced, not only as First Lady, but as a dynamic and impressive woman all her own, going back to her days as a college girl, before she ever had a husband to overshadow her.  

Debate after debate, against my will, I found myself being persuaded.  And finally, she won me over.

I know her chances are increasingly slim.  It looks like too many tactical miscalculations have cost her the nomination.  So if her name is not on the ballot in November, what will I do?

Well, I'm certainly not going to sit at home and pout.  I strongly believe that I would sacrifice my right to complain if I didn't participate, and I'll be damned if I have to bite my tongue for the next four years every time the president--whoever it is--pisses me off.

And I certainly don't feel any obligation to vote for the party, no matter how rudely and arrogantly Obama's supporters chastise me.  After all, I survived the Gore/Nader war of 2000.  

And I have yet to fall victim to the spell that Obama has cast on the country.  He would have had a better chance with me in 2004, when I was looking for someone with political courage, before he disappeared into the Senate and voted just like all the other Democrats.  Before his campaign started to so closely resemble the Bush campaign in 2000, when the media swooned because, well, he was the cool kind of guy you wanted to have a beer with, instead of the nerdy, wonky, stiff alternative.

So, once again, I find myself feeling relieved at the news that Nader's name will be on the ballot.  Not because he will win, but because it means that I can go into that voting booth in November and make my voice heard, however lonely it is.  You, Mr. R and Mr. D, do not represent me.  And you don't get my vote that way.  You don't get to take my vote for granted.  

I learned my lesson in 2006.  The "D" is not enough.

Tags: Ralph Nader, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, 2008, 2008 elections (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 210 comments

  •  My first diary... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    trevzb, Independent Musings, sdgeek
    So try to be kind.
    •  OK. (7+ / 4-)

      Please understand that you are a fucking idiot.

      Thank you.

      I stand by my original analogy between the Joker and bin Laden and the Riddler and Hussein. -- Greasy Grant

      by TheBlaz on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:09:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow... (6+ / 0-)

        That's really unkind.

        I tried pretty hard to write a thoughtful post without deliberately insulting people.

        I posted it on this website because in the past, I've greatly enjoyed reading it but have found the recent tone shocking and offensive.

        I was curious to see what kind of reaction I would get -- I guess you summed it up pretty well.

        And you wonder why I have a problem with the Democratic party?

        •  This site (4+ / 0-)

          isn't here so you can post your thoughts on why you'd vote for Nader over Obama.

          It's to elect better and more progressive DEMOCRATS, not some asshole who thinks his ego and his "right to run" trump the effects and aftermath of his running in the election.

          The reaction you got is the one you deserved.

          And actually, I'm not a representative of the Democratic party. I'm sure others would be more willing to spend time to explain to you why you're notion is stupid.

          I'm just tired of wasting time on idiots like you who clearly think their personal principles are so fucking magical and special that they'd willingly cast their vote against the better interested of the ENTIRE FUCKING COUNTRY.

          So I stand by my comments about you.

          I stand by my original analogy between the Joker and bin Laden and the Riddler and Hussein. -- Greasy Grant

          by TheBlaz on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:17:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nader found Edwards to be very progressive. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            alwaysquestion, joe shikspack

            Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word.  Your words:

            It's to elect better and more progressive DEMOCRATS,

            Umm,Neither Obama nor Clinton can be called progressives.  They are corporate democrats. The most progressive candidate left the race.  You need to go back and review Nader's willingness to stay out of the race and actually support John Edwards because, in Nader's own words, "He's the most progressive mainstream presidential candidate I've seen in years".

            So Nader doesn't run just to ruin things.  He's bringing up a strong progressive agenda in the hopes that Obama or Hillary might be reminded of it.

            So he's a good thing.  This is a democracy afterall.  I'm still voting for the democratic nominee, but I'll work with others to push Obama or Clinton as hard as possible to hold up the progressive mantle.

            •  I preferred Edwards (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              incompleteness, trashablanca

              to Obama and Clinton.

              I voted for Obama in the primary because the coin came up tails instead of heads.

              I'll do what I can to keep whoever wins remembering progressive values.

              I can respect Nader's views while simultaneously disrespecting his decision to put his ego in front of what's best for the country.

              And again, I'm not going to bother being polite to idiots.

              I stand by my original analogy between the Joker and bin Laden and the Riddler and Hussein. -- Greasy Grant

              by TheBlaz on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:36:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If you take out the "idiot" and the F word (0+ / 0-)

                There's plenty of substance to your comments.  While my views on this subject are vastly closer to yours than they are to hers, the invective in your first comment takes a lot away from your subsequent points.

                Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

                by RFK Lives on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:16:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  The #1 rated liberal/progressive... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Hedwig

              in the Senate is about as far as you can go in a nationional election and win...any further and you will be electing a Republican...

              Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

              by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:18:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  So start a campaign.. (0+ / 0-)

              to have Ralphie register as a Democrat and compete in the primary...that is the way we get more progressive Democrats not by Ralphie being Ralphie...

              Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

              by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:19:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Welcome aboard! (7+ / 0-)

          It's just that everyone has been through this Nader bullshit so many times that there is little patience for a thoroughly debunked idea.  It's also obnoxious to imply that people who support the Democratic Party are unaware of the limitations involved.  Most are doing it anyway because it really is the best way to actually accomplish things.  

          Most of us here hate the whole self-involved Nader arrogance with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns.  

          McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

          by Sun dog on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:18:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Many members on this site have a talent (4+ / 0-)

          for turning fence-sitters into republicans or other.  Though actions are talked about and sometimes worked on, reactions are not the strength of this site.  Fence sitters attract the "go fuck yourself" members like no other.  There is an unwritten rule that if someone is sitting on a fence, we mush push them to the other side.

          But in truth, I don't see a problem with continuing to tell any candidate they have to work for the vote.  Feet to fire and all of that.

          •  Her vote is gone. She should go. Period. (0+ / 0-)

            •  Quite the contrary... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              emmabrody

              I don't know what you mean by "her vote is gone," but really, November is still quite a ways off, which means that anything can happen.  Like I said before, I spent almost six years refusing to even consider Hillary before ultimately caucusing for her, so I don't think it's at all impossible that I could be persuaded to support Obama by November.  (I can't imagine a universe in which I'd be persuaded to support McCain.)

              Please don't count me out.

              •  Instead of promoting Ralphie... (0+ / 0-)

                why don't you tell us all about the progressive policies that you are afraid the mainstream Democrats will not pursue...without mentioning Ralphie...we can have a civil debate about that...

                Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:16:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Probably one vote isn't worth (0+ / 0-)

              fighting for on this site or anywhere else.  So, as we go about our day, let us all slap the shit out of anyone that voted a straight D in 2006 and then take a re-count at the end of the day to get the results of our efforts.

              I have said this before and will say it again....when we attack others, they can't get to the other side fast enough.  In doing so, we give them a reason to push back.  Lurkers read this site, so keep in mind you are not just talking to one writer, but many readers that may just identify with the writer.

              Unless, of course, you feel the Democrats will have votes to spare, and then by all means, attack.  We only have to win by one vote in every state.  I think I may have heard Obama say the same....

        •  You have a problem with the Democratic party? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          trashablanca

          Or, the Democratic Party has a problem with YOU?

          Do you REALLY think Nader has a snowball's chance in hell of winning? Is "making a statement" worth 4 MORE years of "Stay the Course"?

          We don't HAVE 4 more years to "Stay the Course". Someone here has a sig line that reads, roughly, "Staying the Course, is what sunk the Titanic." Got it?

          Read the site's FAQ before you post a diary (the diary post page makes QUITE CLEAR that you're expected to do so BEFORE posting). This site is about electing Democrats, NOT Ralph Nader, Harold Stassen, or Pat Paulsen.

          Nader is a joke. You're being blasted because you aren't welcome here.

          GWOT - Global War on Terra(-firma) - Bush's War on the Planet.

          by grndrush on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:20:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's a mob mentality, Angry Mouse. (0+ / 0-)

          Your post is terrific.

          •  Mob mentality. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            trashablanca

            By which you mean the mentality that people should adhere to the purpose of the site if they're going to post here...

            Yeah.

            Brilliant characterization.

            I stand by my original analogy between the Joker and bin Laden and the Riddler and Hussein. -- Greasy Grant

            by TheBlaz on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:26:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  We would just like to follow... (0+ / 0-)

            the Rules

            ....RedState

            would be happy to hear stories of Democrats defecting to Ralphie...please register there and tell them all about it...I bet it even gets recommended...

            Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

            by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:21:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  What it sounds like... (7+ / 0-)

          is sour grapes because you are a Clinton supporter who is lashing out because she is losing.  Instead of saying, "I am going to vote for McCain" you come to Daily Kos saying you for the second worst choice, Ralph Nader.

          Really, what has Nader done since 2000?  How has he exactly worked for my vote?  I voted for him in Illinois in 2000, I convinced my grandparents (people who loved then ultimately got sick of Bill Clinton) to vote for him.  After that election, he didn't do a damn thing with his political capital; let the Green Party whither on the vine.  So, I made a very stupid choice.  

          He just sat on the sidelines until 2004, again nothing happened. Disappeared for 4 years, and now has re-emerged.  If changing the system is important to him, why doesn't he run for a different office?  Why is the Presidency the only thing that matters?  

      •  Ah, I love dailykos (0+ / 0-)

        People express themselves so...so...clearly.

        A Tiger does not always show his Tigritude -- African Proverb

        by The British Observer on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:15:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't like to leave loose ends. n/t (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          grndrush, Prince Nekhlyudov

          I stand by my original analogy between the Joker and bin Laden and the Riddler and Hussein. -- Greasy Grant

          by TheBlaz on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:17:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Stunning, isnt it (0+ / 0-)

          Its a good thing we can thrive in an honest, open minded environment where debate and dissent is welcome. Hate to be like, well you know, those republicans who don't tolerate any way but theirs and where dissent is met with 'if you don't like it, leave, now F+++ o++'

          It is also good to see people trying to help people make up their minds, and welcoming them into the fold rather than say, shouting insults at them mindlessly and blindly swinging the flamethrower.

          Good days, happy days, indeed.

          Barack Obama + Wesley Clark 'nuff said.

          by Aike on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:29:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're confusing (0+ / 0-)

            debate (which happens every freakin' day) with deviation from the site's mission.

            Would you think it's ok for someone to go to a Rottweiler fan club site--the mission of which is to discuss rottweilers and rott-related things--and starts talking about how poodles are better?

            I'm not wasting time being nice to Nader fans who have no concept of history or results of their actions.

            I stand by my original analogy between the Joker and bin Laden and the Riddler and Hussein. -- Greasy Grant

            by TheBlaz on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:32:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  and that is your choice (0+ / 0-)

              but you are not telling the whole truth.

              you have wasted a lot of time being very angry and insulting when it would have been far less time to just ignore and move on.

              if you feel this is the best way to further the sites mission, go ahead, and I am sure you will, with or without my permission. I do question your methodology. It is exclusive, not inclusive, it is damaging, not healing, it is above all and most importantly, hurtful to both you and them.

              If that is okay with you, fine. I believe it is the wrong way.

              Barack Obama + Wesley Clark 'nuff said.

              by Aike on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:43:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  We can have a debate... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Hedwig

            all day about any progressive policy that Ralphie happens to support...just not mention his name or promote his candidacy...which BTW is what Ralphie is supposedly trying to do...move the mainstream candidates left...

            Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

            by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:14:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You've just been given a Hide. (0+ / 0-)

        Your comment was despicable.

    •  You voted for Ralph in 2004? (5+ / 0-)

      You are an idiot and Nader is your idiot leader.  Please go away.

      Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't. Pete Seeger

      by Mas Gaviota on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:10:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  dunno about kind (0+ / 0-)

      ... but it is your right to vote for whomever you want.

      If you believe that the protest of not voting for Obama will rest on you better than the risk of having McCain for president, then that is what you should do.

      I personally choose to see the best in people. I will take Obama by his face value. If he lives up to it, even only a little, I will be a happy man for it. If he does not, well I think McCain or Hillary would do no better. Life is too short to run around seeing danger, fear and failure everywhere.

      Sure, all the camps have supporters that are a little over the edge (apparently a Clintonite stabbed an an Obamamaniac in the gut yesterday over a political disagreement) but on the whole, above the fray what these elections offer is the chance that things could be better. Voting for Nader will not make things better, no matter how good a guy he was/is/might be. There is the risk of disappointment, but take the worst you could honestly see Obama doing, and compare it to the best.

      I would rather take the chance of failure with an eye on hope than guaranteed failure for the sake of proving my point.

      But again, you are free in this country to vote according to your priorities and integrity.

      Barack Obama + Wesley Clark 'nuff said.

      by Aike on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:15:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'll be more than kind--- (0+ / 0-)

      I hear you loud and clear.

      I watched Nader on Meet The Press last Sunday and he blew me away, yet again.  I am a John Edwards supporter and I have this to say:

      Nader isn't a spoiler.  In fact, he very much liked an Edwards nomination and said he would support him if he continued his campaign pledges.

      I'm sick to death of so called progressives blaming Nader for GWB.  There were other parties on the ballot.  I don't hear anyone around these parts blaming stupid Republicans and Independents for Bush's presidency.  I rarely hear the Supreme Court's hideous miscarriage of justice being blamed.  Or that the election was stolen.  Or that Al Gore didn't win some other states.

      Instead people spew their hatred at a man who has real progressive concerns at heart.  While I don't share Angry Mouse's love for Hillary, I share her protective feelings toward Nader.  When he passes on, who will be courageous enough to pick up the torch.

      Go ahead and scream and through tantrums about Nader.  Then go to his website and read his positions or go view his MTP interview and remind Obama just what it is he should be fighting for.

      What would the world do if Nader, Edwards and Gore formed a triumverate in lieu of a Nader presidential bid to push progressive values and hold Obama's feet to the fire?

      That would be my fantasy, and it's a wild fantasy at that.  Maybe we could get a great president out of Obama.  Marshall his fans and voters and guide his to real change.

    •  I just have one request (0+ / 0-)

      You seem like a thoughtful person that shares the common values of the Democratic party.

      My request is, if Barack Obama is the nominee, that you read his book The Audacity of Hope before the election in November.

      If after reading it you still feel that he doesn't represent the type of Democrat you want in the White House, then feel free to vote for Nader.  That's your choice.  But I really hope that, as a thoughtful person, you give Obama a chance.  

      Oh, and if you decide to vote against the Democrat in the fall, you'd be well suited NOT to post about it here.

      "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

      by bawbie on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:47:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Heck of a subject (0+ / 0-)

      for your first diary.  ;)

  •  This site is here to elect Democrats. (6+ / 0-)

    It's not a site for pushing crazy 3rd party candidates who enable Republican victories.  Take it to gop.com where it belongs.

    When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

    by clonecone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:05:52 AM PDT

    •  rec, but... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sdgeek

      I'm not really disagreeing with you, I just have this question.  I thought the site was about the Progressive agenda.  Am I incorrect about that?  Is dKos really just about the Democratic party?  I mean are Green party people not welcome here, for example?

      God knows I don't want to be in the position of defending Nader bc I think he is just a horrible candidate and I dearly hope he goes away.

      The readiness is all

      by mrchumchum on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:14:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The owner of this site (5+ / 0-)

        has made the purpose of this site very clear.  It is in the FAQ, which should be read by everyone before registering.

        This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory. And since we haven't gotten any of that from the current crew, we're one more thing: a reform blog. The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It's one between establishment and anti-establishment factions. And as I've said a million times, the status quo is untenable

        When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

        by clonecone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:17:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks Clonecone...you beat me to it...!!! (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          trashablanca

          Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

          by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:18:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Don't get so mad, sheesh (0+ / 0-)

          I have read the FAQ like 5 times, I thought it said something about the Progressive agenda, but guess I'm wrong.  Jeez, we're on the same side here.

          The readiness is all

          by mrchumchum on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:18:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What makes you think I'm mad? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            mrchumchum

            When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

            by clonecone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:22:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I dunno it sounded like it. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              TruthOfAngels

              I'm still a newbie and I'm still a little touchy with the way you guys say things.  I'll get used to it eventually.

              Look, let me just say I think Nader is a clown and I want him to find whatever hole he came from, so I'm frankly glad to be wrong on this point.

              The readiness is all

              by mrchumchum on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:24:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Same questions I asked the diarist (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                trashablanca, mrchumchum

                Do you really think the Green Party has a snowball's chance in hell of winning the GE?

                Is "making a statement" worth 4 MORE years of "Stay the Course"?

                I don't necessarily believe that a 2-party system is the best route to good government - neither did the founding fathers, for the most part. But it's what we have.

                A vote for a Green for a down-ticket race (State House or Senate, specifically) is one thing. A Green Party vote in the Presidential race is basically a vote for McCane.

                GWOT - Global War on Terra(-firma) - Bush's War on the Planet.

                by grndrush on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:29:32 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I definitely don't think Green (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  grndrush, trashablanca

                  has a snowballs chance.  Nor would I vote for them.  I've voted Dem all my life and that certainly ain't gonna change this year.  

                  I actually was thinking down ticket.  I was thinking there might be some more local Green candidates that I would be interested in supporting.  That said, I'll be happy to go to another blog to do so.  Very happy.

                  Like I said, I'm actually really glad that 3rd party prez candidates aren't welcome here.  Thank god, in fact.  I'm a frigging Obamamaniac and I want Nader to take his ego and shove it up his, well, you know.

                  The readiness is all

                  by mrchumchum on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:34:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    mrchumchum

                    And I personally (I'm no Admin, LMAO) see no reason why you'd need to go to leave DKos for voting Green below the national level. That's how any new party will begin - grassroots, at the local and state levels. Kos doesn't often mention State Senators.

                    At the national level, well, we need a Democratic Congress if a Democratic President is going to get much done. We really need 62 seats in Congress - that allows for one death, one Lieberman, and we still have the magic number of 60 Senators.

                    GWOT - Global War on Terra(-firma) - Bush's War on the Planet.

                    by grndrush on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:47:42 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  You are right (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            trevzb, alwaysquestion, mrchumchum

            Well, first of all, kos is the only one who can decide what is or is not right in this context.

            But if you took this FAQ literally, we should be supporting Lieberman. So obviously this is not just a Democratic blog.

            Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz, SPC Eli Israel: true American heroes.

            by sdgeek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:12:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It is not a progressive blog... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grndrush, Fyodor

        it is a Pro-Democratic Party blog  See FAQ's linked above.

        That does not mean we cannot have debates about progressive policy but if a candidate is not registered as a Democrat or hurting a Republican (Libertarian, Reform Party)...they are not welcome at DKos

        Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

        by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:20:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  OK, OK, I have read the FAQ (0+ / 0-)

          I just must have read something elsewhere that said it was about the Progressive agenda...man...you guys are tough...

          The readiness is all

          by mrchumchum on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:21:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just that... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            mrchumchum

            ...it hit a nerve with some.

            Normally, overall, they're generally an accepting bunch. :)

            And, I do disagree that this site, despite the FAQ, has always, in every instance, been distinctly about electing any Democrat. There has been the call for electing "better" Democrats true, but then there has also been the call to not elect someone just because they have a "D" after their name. So, it's kind of fluid on the FAQ thing. :)

            And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

            - Pirates of the Caribbean

            •  Well then ask Kos to ammend the FAQ's (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Hedwig

              Because that is what the Kossacks abide by...until then the self-policing will continue...

              Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

              by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:57:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not sure that... (1+ / 0-)

                ..this is considered self-policing

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                but I have seen plenty of violations of this particular section of the FAQ recently.

                Now, I'm going back to hunting down the dastardly FAQ violators! :)

              •  Here's another.. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                mrchumchum

                In the FAQ:

                Diaries on contested Democratic primaries: Be positive. Make an affirmative case for your favored candidate. If you do criticize a Democratic candidate, don't make ad hominem attacks - stick to substantive criticisms, and back them up with hard evidence. Be very cautious if you go after a fellow Democrat. Odds are, that candidate will have supporters on this site. Reasonable people will accept reasonable criticism - unfair criticism will only needlessly inflame. And remember, deliberately inflammatory diaries are prohibited.

                Think that one has gone up in flames lately as well.

              •  Self policing... (0+ / 0-)

                ...involves policing oneself, not calling out newcomers who are looking for the vibrant, democratic community they've heard about on the news, who think we have a chance using the Internet to move toward a better way of deciding how to govern ourselves.

                I'll tell you what I don't want to enable, and that's a world where Democrats in power go around "self-policing" their neighbors to make sure they don't run afoul of some supposed pro-Democrat policy.

                T.

                •  I don't see how talking about issues... (0+ / 0-)

                  without promoting the 3rd party candidate that might espouse those issues stifles any debate...within reason...you could paraphrase every policy that Ralphie is for and discuss it until the cows come home and even discuss how you feel the Democratic candidates are not addressing these issues...That would be a positive and welcome discussion without promoting Ralphie's candidacy and ego.

                  That would be a positive discussion that might even get some net-roots movements to change some positions by the current Democratic candidates.  In addition, it could create a laundry list of lobbying efforts after the Democrats take over both ends of Pensylvannia Avenue.

                  Promoting Ralphie's candidacy does nothing except annoy 95%+ of the DKos community and give Ralphie free publicity that he does not need.

                  Peace...Go Democrats!!!

                  Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                  by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:33:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Some people... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            mrchumchum

            ...are more concerned about the defense of the FAQ than others.

            With 150,000 registered users and its notoriety in the Real World, this site has outgrown its Mission Statement, I believe. If the goal is really to elect Democrats, as opposed to, say, defending and advancing the progressive movement, then its value as a democratic instrument in the broader fight will diminish, and deservedly so, as party allegiance takes a back seat to statesmanship and effective, transparent governance.

            But to hear some people tell it, electing Lieberman is more important than considering a third-party alternative in CT, at least on DKos. I don't buy that for a second, and I think Kos recognizes that his site has become more than what the Mission Statement describes, that it has become a meeting place for progressives and a bazaar of information and ideas that deserve to transcend party labels.

            Yes, electing more Democrats is important, at least for now. But Pelosi and Lieberman should tell you that it's about far more than that, and damned well should be.

            t.

            •  Of course... (0+ / 0-)

              When elections are not being waged, then keeping the elected Democrats voting as we believe is correct takes precedence...and BTW it is not a zero sum game we can lobby our elected Democrats and try to get new ones elected at the same time...

              Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

              by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:25:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  no. that is simply wrong. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pat bunny, sdgeek

      Stifling debate is not the goal in any free society. If someone has an opinion, they should be free to make it, just as you are free to disagree. This site may or may not be here solely to get democrats elected, a factoid I think many would argue, but telling people to shut up, censorship and affrontery are not part of an open minded community.

      You dont like Nader, great. We agree. I can't stand him. But Angry Mouse has every right to represent the views, just as you have every right not to read the diary.

      If I wanted to push an odd progressive republican who had a chance at unseating a cantankerous corrupt racist bigot, would you hold me to those same rules? Nothing but democrats?

      Censorship is the wrong path. Always.  

      Barack Obama + Wesley Clark 'nuff said.

      by Aike on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:22:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's a private site (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grndrush, TheBlaz

        and the owner can impose whatever rules he wants.  This is a site for electing Democrats.  Diaries advocating for third party douchebags are not welcome.

        When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

        by clonecone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:25:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  of course he can... (0+ / 0-)

          ..and you fail to see the point.

          hiding behind a wall of censorship is not conducive to debate and discourse. If someone wants to talk about why nader is great, tell them they are wrong. Tell them supporting him will hurt us all. I agree on all of those.

          Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting lalalala and insulting everyone who has a difference of opinion will not help the cause. Finding out how to pull those who are disenfranchised, discouraged and misunderstood into the fold will.

          Its about tolerance and welcome vs stonewall and censorship.

          Barack Obama + Wesley Clark 'nuff said.

          by Aike on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:36:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is not censorship...it is Kos' site... (0+ / 0-)

            you can say anything you want...just start your own blog...and BTW if you want to talk about progressive policies and debate them...that is fine...it is just supporting 3rd party candidates that is an issue here...

            So you can take all of Ralphie's policies you want and write diaries about them and ask if our Democratic candidates are supporting these policies as long as you do not advocate voting for Ralphie (or any other non Democrat)

            Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

            by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:47:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am not the issue... (0+ / 0-)

              but thank you for being civil. I agree with everyone about Naders political ambitions, and you will not find me writing diaries about him or his policies, by any measure.

              I disagree with the methodology and the aim. You further the democratic cause by calmly and openly bringing people like AngryMouse, who is obviously unhappy with the situation, into the fold, not by shouting at her and insulting her. Anger and vitriol do not help anyones cause.

              It is censorship, however justified it may be. Kos has a clear agenda, and that is fine. I abide by his rules, furthermore, I agree with them, which is why I am here. I am suggesting people slow down and think about how they go about working to further that agenda.

              Barack Obama + Wesley Clark 'nuff said.

              by Aike on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:56:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have tried to be positive... (0+ / 0-)

                as well...trying to let the diarist know that he/she could talk all day about policies of Ralphie she likes and why she is concerned that the current mainstream Democrats will not pursue those policies without promoting Ralphie...

                Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:40:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  "It's Kos' site" (0+ / 0-)

              It isn't yours. Why do you feel the drive to vigilance so strongly? Do you spend this much time in the comments of diaries that don't measure up to the three substantive paragraphs standard, as well, or is it simply your personal animosity toward Ralph Nader that provides your FAQ Violation Detector with its juice?

              T.

              •  It is a community site... (0+ / 0-)

                and I am a partisan Democrat...which is why I like Kos and we are all responsible for keeping it that way...I am as vigilant about other anti-Democratic comments (especially Blue-Dog negative comments)

                Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:01:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Seems to me... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...you should be more upset at anti-democratic comments than anti-Democratic ones. But to each his own...

                  T.

                  •  Look there are many... (0+ / 0-)

                    progressive sites that have no particular feeling towards Democrats where talking about Ralphie would be welcome...it is just not this site...

                    Many of them are linked right on DKos front page...

                    Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                    by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:28:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're so flip... (0+ / 0-)

                      ..."just go to a different blog!"

                      As if there are numerous interactive Internet communities with the size, scope, prestige and potential as this one...

                      Like I said before, I hope Kos is starting to realize that this creation has grown beyond him or his personal vision for it, I think.

                      There are a lot of profoundly talented people participating in this community, and their collective value transcends any mission statement that precludes its continued existence as a diverse, vibrant and progressive instrument of public participation.

                      So, yes, technically it is Kos' personal site, but these people are going to work together somewhere. The object of electing Democrats in particular may be a good short-term strategy -- I prefer a more drastic reorientation -- but I doubt it's so valuable that it trumps the broader purpose of this community, which is making the world a better place for all its people through cooperation.

                      We are self-sustaining. Kos is a particularly mutually-beneficial arrangement, and I suspect that, ultimately, that's what Kos wants it to be.

                      T.

                      •  Kos has a very... (0+ / 0-)

                        specific mission...Elect more and better Democrats...this is accomplished in several ways simultaneously.

                        1. Get as many Democrats elected in as many levels of governement all over the country...(ala the 50-State Strategy).  This accomplishes 3 things:  Spreads our Democratic message nationally, builds a farm team in districts we have historically not been competitive in and adds more votes for the Democratic leadership.
                        1. Perform selective primary challenges where the Democratic representative is out of step with the political leanings of their district (e.g. Al Wynn and Joe Lieberman).  This is how we get better Democrats.
                        1. Lobby the existing Democrats through the Net-roots process to do the right thing on key issues.  

                        That does not mean we will always win...but having a larger majority of Democrats will mean that Blue-Dogs become less of an issue in critical votes.

                        Now you can disagree with this strategy of how to make this country more progressive and responsive to people while being less corportists...but it is a strategy in the right direction.  And it is the strategy that Kos has elected through his FAQ's (which I happen to agree with...obviously).

                        So you can help with this process by putting issues in the forefront of Kossacks to be lobbied for and help elect Democrats you believe in or you can be a force against this strategy by diluting the Kos mission by promoting 3rd party candidates

                        As for being Flip...it was not my intention...My interpretation of the FAQ's is that Kos has spent a lot of time and energy building his blog community to what it is today...the reason he believes he has been successful is that he is not all things to all people, he has a mission and that is what attracts 95% of people to his site...so either try to change the mission (you can e-mail Kos, you know) or support the mission...if you don't then Kossacks like myself will defend the mission because we like Kos and agree with his mission as represented in the FAQ's.

                        Look you are not the only one frustrated with Kos' mission, even committed Democrats on this site who happen to be very left leaning Democrats cringe when they see support for Blue-Dogs...but they just ignore it and move on for the most part when I bring up that I happen to love all Blue Dogs from Red Districts.

                        Peace...Go Democrats!!!

                        Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                        by dvogel001 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:28:15 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  But you... (0+ / 0-)

          ...why do you feel the need to be such a footsoldier in the Kos Army, defending the sacred site against the mention of third party candidates?

          Why does anybody? Let Kos go about banning everybody he wants to ban. Why do you feel like that's somehow your job?

          Note that I'm not talking about you personally, just those (like you, apparently) who feel the Mission Statement trumps all dissent.

          T.

    •  Would you tell me where this site states (0+ / 0-)

      that its mission is to elect democrats?

      I'm not being facetious.  Just want to know if this is true.  It's a little hard to believe.

  •  Just curious (7+ / 0-)

    If the Democrats do not represent you, then why did you bother making an account here, a site whose mission is to promote and elect Democrats?

    John McCain is NOT a Bush supporter. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a Bush supporter, but he is NOT a porn star.

    by DH from MD on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:05:52 AM PDT

    •  see lieberman.... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      trevzb, stridergambit, alwaysquestion

      if you need an example of how this site picks and chooses who they want.  Kos even commented during the 2006 election that he didn't care who won a close Tennessee race.

      To have such a narrow view of what this site actually represents is silly.

      •  Lieberman? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grndrush

        What does he have to do with this?  He's not a Democrat at all.

        And however narrow a view you claim it is, it's still the site mission:

        This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory.[...]

        John McCain is NOT a Bush supporter. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a Bush supporter, but he is NOT a porn star.

        by DH from MD on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:15:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually... (0+ / 0-)

          ...he is. You may not appreciate it, but he is.

          Congratulations on working to elect more like him by shutting off dissent among the Democrats on this site who actually have problems with the way things are going in the party...

          T.

          •  Again, (0+ / 0-)

            Nobody is trying to shut off debate on the issues, it is simply not the place to promote or give publicity to 3rd party candidates...feel free to discuss any policy issue you want that you feel the Democrats are not pursuing to your liking as many Kossacks have actively and vehemently done...

            Why do you need to promote Ralphie to get your policy differences with Democrats across?

            Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

            by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:26:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because the Democrats... (0+ / 0-)

              ...aren't listening to me.

              T.

              •  So go talk to Ralphie... (0+ / 0-)

                I am sure you can find his website...We won't listen to you anymore by bringing up Ralphie...It just makes us mad...so if that is your purpose then you have achieved your goal...If you are looking to have reasoned debate about progressive issues or issues that Ralphie cares about and how to get Democrats to consider those positions...then you are in the right place...

                Peace...Go Democrats!!!

                Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                by dvogel001 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:12:33 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I never brought him up... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...in the first place.

                  T.

                  •  Now you are being flip... (0+ / 0-)

                    That is the context of the whole diary...as I have said...talk about issues all you want just don't promote 3rd party candidates...then all is good...So if you did not bring Ralphie up...then fine...go back to blogging or your job and keep on doing what you are doing...

                    Peace...Go Democrats!!!

                    Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                    by dvogel001 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:06:56 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Read the FAQ's... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grndrush

        If Kos wants to change the purpose of the site then he will change the FAQ's...it is not my opinion that counts...it is his Site...

        If you want to support 3rd parties then start your own blog called the NotDemRepBlog.com

        Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

        by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:22:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  that does not change... (0+ / 0-)

          the fact that Kos stated during the 2006 election that Ford winning or losing Tennessee did not matter one iota, which highlights that dissent from the electing democrats above all else creed is evident from the top down.

          Not saying I agree or disagree.  I am stating fact.

    •  Excuse my nuance, but... (0+ / 0-)

      I am not saying the entire Democratic party can f*ck off (as opposed to what some have suggested I do).  There are certainly Democrats I like and respect.  I love listening to Sen. Leahy and Sen. Schumer grill witnesses.  I think Sen. Feingold, more often than not, represents my positions (although I have not lived in his state and been able to elect him).

      I've read this site for years, but only recently bothered to jump into the conversation about the primary season because of questions I've had about the various candidates.  

      As I stated in the beginning of my diary, I start out not liking anyone, but rather, waiting for someone (from the Democratic party) to win me over.  (I have really not been able to give serious consideration to any Republican thus far -- I find the general party platform disgusting, and it's hard for me to find ANY common ground with any Republican candidates.)

      So the reason I'm here -- as I'd expect is the reason for many -- is to try to make up my mind, to be informed, and to try to make sense of this party that so often does not make sense to me.

      •  Being Pro-Ralphie... (0+ / 0-)

        is bad enough...that is giving him free press that he does not deserve on DKos...

        As a suggestion...why can't you talk about the progressive policies that you like instead of talking about Ralphie...you might find a kinder audiance talking about how you hope you will not be disappointed that candidate X or Y will not persue the following:

        1.
        2.
        3.

        That is fine and you can do that without promoting Ralphie...which BTW is that what Ralphie is trying to accomplish anyway...to move the candidates to the Left?????

        Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

        by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:52:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not about being pro-Ralph (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not urging anyone to vote for Ralph.  I'm simply saying that when neither of the major candidates do it for me, he's sort of my default.  And I don't agree with him on all issues, but I still want to vote.  I couldn't bring myself to vote for Kerry, but I wasn't going to sit home in 2004.

          •  As I said...an acceptable diary... (0+ / 0-)

            would be to talk about all of the policies you like of Ralphie without promoting him and telling the DKos community why you are concerned that the current mainstream candidates will not pursue those policies...what DKosers have an issue with is promoting (even slightly) a 3rd party candidate on this site...talking about progressive issues is fine...

            Peace...Go Democrats...

            Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

            by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:42:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Contrary to popular opinion... (0+ / 0-)

            ...not everyone on this site is as anti-third party as some of the more strident defenders of the DKos Mission Statement.

            But it sure is easier to hold up the Mission Statement and shout you down than it is to defend the Democratic Party as some kind of monolithic good that deserves the unquestioning support the Mission Statement demands.

            I suppose they're technically right...this is a site for electing Democrats. But without the free exchange of ideas and criticisms, it ceases to be worth reading. You people wielding the Mission Statement like it's some kind of actual defense of your chosen strategy better hope that this site remains about more than just unquestioningly electing Democrats.

            So if you ever get tired of beating your head against a wall, Angry Mouse, just say "Lieberman".

            T.

  •  Vote for Nader, split the Democratic vote, (6+ / 0-)

    get McCain, then whine about how McCain attacked Iran. Same thing every cycle. It's blindingly obvious, ain't it? As Obama said, and I paraphrase: Nader thought there was no difference between Gore and Bush. 8 years on, it evident he was wrong.

    At the end of the day, you can vote for whoever. Just don't complain.

    A Tiger does not always show his Tigritude -- African Proverb

    by The British Observer on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:07:05 AM PDT

    •  No one can predict the future ... (0+ / 0-)

      While I think W is evil incarnate and think Gore would have been a better choice .... who knows what Al would or would not have done? Noone is the correct answer. Along the same lines, I do not believe McCain is any more likely to invade Iraq than Obama is to take the presidential oath og the Koran.

      Never voted for Nader. Still respect him and do not blame him for Gore's defeat. Had Clinton had had a little more decency and a lot less leasure time Gore would have won in a cake walk. Along the same lines I don't worship Perot for helping give us Clinton.

      Does DK have a mission statement? I've seen references to promoting a progressive agenda but nothing formal. Would say that not all dems are progressive in my opinion.

      •  YES, dKos Does Have a Mission Statement! (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grndrush, baudelairien

        Posted above, but apparently needs to be reposted.

        From the FAQ:

        This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory.

        Tikkun Olam...Obama '08

        by tethys on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:24:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  9/11 probably would not have happened... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grndrush, Hedwig

        Because Al Gore would not have spent the first 9 months of his administration re-inventing the intelligence community and he would have read and heeded the PDB that said, "Al Queda Determined to Attack Inside United States"

        The first 9 months they were doing strategic planning of how to suspend our civil rights and ge