Daily Kos

Hillary and NAFTA

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:40:47 AM PDT

Back in the 90's I was extremely upset with the Clinton Administration for their pushing of the NAFTA agreement.  You see, I was an engineer that designed large electric motors in the range from 1 horsepower to 15,000 horsepower.  The company that I will not name was and is one of the worlds largest electrical manufacturers, employing hundreds of thousands worldwide.  

That was and is an industry under intense pressure from extremely low price (low quality) foreign imports.  I worked as a development engineer, and the focus of my position was two fold.  One was to oversee complete redesign of our product lines to meet energy efficiency standards mandated by legislation called EPAct, short for Energy Policy Act of 1992.  The other was cost reduction, necessary to keep our factories (3 that I was responsible for) competitive with overseas competition.

This was an extremely difficult task because the two goals are contrary to each other.  Higher efficiency required higher quality (more expensive) electrical steel used to manufacture rotor and stator cores.  It required more steel to keep magnetic flux densities down.  And it required larger cross section copper conductors, (more weight of an expensive material).  The challenges and the pressure from upper management was so intense, I am walking around today with many grey hairs and stomach problems that I'm sure can in part be attributed to the high level of stress I endured over those years.

The largest reason for the stress resulted from an edict given by upper management that unless I was unable to meet the goals for energy efficiency and cost reduction, two of our factories in the US were going to be closed and the equipment and manufacturing would be moved to Mexico.  So, you see, I felt the weight on my shoulders of all those thousands of American workers who's livelihood and families depended upon the jobs they had.  I worked day and night, analyzing performance shortcomings in our current products.  Analyzing the cost of every single part and manufacturing process.  Designing, redesigning, and redesigning again, and again, and again - trying to meet the goals.

Not only did I meet the goals stated for my projects I exceeded them.  In fact I was given awards by my company, wined and dined by executives that most workers never even get a passing glimpse at.  I was sent on nice tropical vacations with my wife at boondoggle meetings and conferences.  Life was good indeed!

However, at this time, the NAFTA debate was raging away, and the agreement ultimately passed.  So within my company, the Harvard MBA's went to work.  They were just pissing themselves with glee.  They could take my product lines (which I thought were going to save American jobs) and ship them to Mexico to be manufactured anyway.  The savings would be twofold.  It was going to be a windfall for the company.  I sat in the meetings with the companies top executives and what I learned is that they don't give one shit about workers and families.  One meeting was held in Guadalajara Mexico, at the plant where some of the manufacturing was to be moved.  I remember the new building construction that was going on at the time.  There were bulldozers, front end loaders, etc, all sitting around while hundreds of Mexican workers dug holes for the foundations using picks and shovels.  I couldn't believe it.  I asked about it and one of our German executives commented that, there is so much cheap labor to he had here, if we started using those machines, there would be riots in the street.  He added that your American politicians have sold your citizens a bill of goods.  He said they are promising that wages will rise, and workers here will be able to buy your goods.  That is fantasy.  He said that the world has literally an INFINITE supply of cheap labor.  If wages rise here, the manufacturing will be moved yet somewhere else.  YOU WILL NEVER SEE WAGES RISE...  I was shocked by the attitude but not surprised.

I tell this story because it explains why I have NO LOVE for the Clintons.  And I especially hated Al Gore - specifically after his debate with Perot on Larry King Live.  I didn't give a damn that Ken Star was being unfair to Bill Clinton.  And I shed no tears when Al Gore was "beat" by G W Bush.  I simply hated them all, because I had to deal with the tears and fears of all those folks at my company who lost their jobs at the hands of NAFTA.   It was a life changing experience to watch them get pink slipped group by group until the factories were empty.

Fast forward to 2008.  Obama is trying to pin the NAFTA thing on to Hillary Clinton with his mailers, and with this from last night's debate

SEN. OBAMA: Well, I think what is absolutely true is, is that when Senator Clinton continually talks about her experience, she is including the eight years that she served as first lady, and you know, often says, you know, "Here's what I did."
"Here's what we did." "Here's what we accomplished" -- which is fine.

And I have not -- I have not in any way said that that experience is not relevant, and I don't begrudge her claiming that as experience. What I've said, and what I would continue to maintain, is you can't take credit for all the good things that happened but then, when it comes to issues like NAFTA, you say, well, I -- behind the scenes, I was disagreeing. That doesn't work. So you have to, I think, take both responsibility as well as credit.

That got me thinking.  That was Bill's presidency, not Hillary's.  How do we know what went on behind closed doors?  Is it fair to shackle Hillary with everything that Bill did in his term as president?  I wonder...

Then I saw this on CNN, and I decided that maybe I should take her at her word...

Tags: Hillary Clinton, NAFTA (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 41 comments

  •  Flames??? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    importer, hairspray, rhutcheson

    Figured I should know better than to ask for tips.  After all, this isn't what most folks around her these days want to hear.

    I still haven't figured out who I'll vote for if there is still a race when my state primary comes around.

    This is as painful a primary season as I've ever been through.  I could never understand the "undecided."  Now I are one...

    Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

    by Dave B on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:43:26 AM PDT

    •  I'm puzzled by this (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Gooserock

      Because I saw this and it's Hillary's own words.

      http://youtube.com/...

      "I'm disappointed in the outcome" is far different from "I was against it from the beginning."

      •  The Congressional Budget Office was quoted (0+ / 0-)

        several days ago as saying that on balance NAFTA had increased and improved trade for the US with greater economic returns and had negligle effects on US employment.  NAFTA was seen as good thing for this continent in the 1990's to equalize income disparity in the three countries and to ward off trading blocs of Europe and Asia.  So if Hillary was opposed to it and then later said it was a disappointment I can see that.  I, knowing I couldn't control it, would hope to be proven wrong.

        Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

        by hairspray on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:09:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  and when a democrat uses them? (2+ / 0-)

      And that one way is for the people (voters) to reject the tactics of the Repukes at the ballot box

      are we to applaude it, do we need an administration the has the traits demonstrated so far by a certain campaign? what will that change...

      please pardon the poor keyboarding, i can never decide which two of my ten thumbs to use, so hopefully some of you are fluent in Typo

      by TAPayne on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:51:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry Hillary Cant Claim 35 years of experience (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    joe shikspack, BasharH

    And then stay away from the disasters like Health Care and NAFTA.

    McCain/(Hagee+Parsley) '08 "We Hunt Jews and Muslims So You Dont Have To. Straight Talk"

    by DFutureIsNow on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:45:20 AM PDT

  •  Good job (0+ / 0-)

    Thanks for the anecdotes and quotes.  I'm glad to learn that Hillary opposed (or at least did not support) NAFTA.

    I was  disappointed that Clinton didn't demand a quid pro quo from the Rethugs, i.e., that they give him Universal Health Care first, before giving them NAFTA.  You could certainly argue that it wouldn't have been a great deal - but what we got was NO deal.

  •  German executives (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dave B, hairspray

    The German executives could have pointed out that they started free trade in the 80's with poorer Spain, Greece and Portugal.

    All countries involved became richer as a result.

    But the rich countries in northern Europe forced Spain, Greece & Portugal to institute property & labor rights and rule of law; things Mexico does not have.

    •  The EU (0+ / 0-)

      Is a good bargain for civil rights and trade policy.

      It's been a boon to all participants because it integrates human rights and economic issues.

      Free Trade With Canada makes a great deal of sense. Not so with Mexico (unless you see Mexico clean up it's human rights and standards record).

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:34:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What's Her Record On It Been? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Abra Crabcakeya

    She's spoken in support of it often, starting back in the day.

    It's part of her resume.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:50:21 AM PDT

  •  Hmmm. (3+ / 0-)

    Maybe they should have been more open with their records.  Then we could confirm their claims about what went on "behind the scenes".  

    Clinton promoted her husband's trade agenda for years, and friends say that she's a free-trader at heart. ``The simple fact is, nations with free-market systems do better,'' she said in a 1997 speech to the Corporate Council on Africa. ``Look around the globe: Those nations which have lowered trade barriers are prospering more than those that have not.''

    Praise for Nafta

    At the 1998 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, she praised corporations for mounting ``a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of Nafta.'' She added: ``It is certainly clear that we have not by any means finished the job that has begun.''

    Clinton ``is committed to free trade and to the growing role of the international economy,'' said Steven Rattner, a Clinton fundraiser and co-founder of Quadrangle Group LLC, a New York buyout firm. ``She would absolutely do the right thing as president.''

    http://www.bloomberg.com/...

  •  Should I get her a pillow? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Its All So Goofy

    Sorry, but Hillary dug her own grave last night and she's more than welcome to lie in it now with my blessings.

    1. The SNL reference was awful.  Whoever told her that was a good idea to bring up had his head up his ass when he said it.  She came across as being whiney and lacking a sense of humor.
    1. The Farrakahn comment was uncalled for.  Russert had tried to pin Obama down on Farrakahn and he handled him deftly.  "Denounce" is a stronger word than 'reject' yet Hillary doesn't understand that basic vocabulary?  She was trying to twist a knife that wasn't even in her victim, and it backfired on her...again.

    Fuck her. Fuck her and her 'inevitable' candidacy.

    Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by darthstar on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:52:45 AM PDT

    •  I'd like to know whether or not Clinton (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      joe shikspack

      Would "reject" or "denounce" her AUMF vote right now.  If she does neither, then I guess she fully supports it.  Sorry Senator Clinton, the triumphs of the Clinton Administration are tethered to the "what the hell were you thinking" trip ups.

      Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

      by BasharH on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:18:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Did you watch the debate? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        hairspray

        Last night she stated that the AUMF vote was one she got wrong and she wishes she could take it back.

        Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

        by Dave B on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:26:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I was streaming it so I missed a bit of her (0+ / 0-)

          Response... but from what I heard, she said that if she knew then what she knows now, she wouldn't have voted that way.  I may be a little hard on her, but that doesn't sounds like the same thing as "I think my AUMF vote was a mistake and I take it back."  (My quoting, not Senator Clinton's).

          Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

          by BasharH on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:17:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  from the transcript (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          BasharH

          posted at the nyt:

          "CLINTON: Well, obviously, I've said many times that, although my vote on the 2002 authorization regarding Iraq was a sincere vote, I would not have voted that way again.

          I would certainly, as president, never have taken us to war in Iraq. And I regret deeply that President Bush waged a preemptive war, which I warned against and said I disagreed with."

          this doesn't sound like an acknowledgement of a mistake to my ear.

          yoo broke the law, now the law breaks you

          by joe shikspack on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:42:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  More... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    back2basics

    The Buffalo News (1998).
    Clinton attended the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, and thanked corporations for mounting "a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA."

    United Press International (11/1/1996).
    On a trip to Brownsville, Texas, Clinton "touted the president's support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying it would reap widespread benefits in the region."

    The Associated Press (11/2/1996).
    Hillary Clinton touted the fact that "the president would continue to support economic growth in South Texas through initiatives such as the North American Free Trade Agreement."

    Clinton's own memoir: "Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for president in 1996. He couldn't hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill's successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA."

  •  NAFTA Must Be Reworked To Be Free, But Fair (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hairspray, BasharH

    trade. Period. End of conversation. I often don't think folks like Clinton (or any of our elected leaders) realize what NAFTA has done to hundreds, even thousand of communities throughout the US.

    The little town my parents live in had a huge Snap-on plant. Made some of the best tools in the world. Several generations of my family graduated from high school and went to work there. If you worked hard you moved up, made a lot of money for that part of the country, had great health care, stock options, etc.

    No more. My uncle now drives 2.5 hours a day to get to work where he does ISO 9000 certification. The town IMHO will almost be gone in a few decades. Younger people just don't stick around. There is nothing for them.

    •  I think many of the Democrats including Clinton (0+ / 0-)

      understand the devastation, which wasn't evident in the early '90's.  Our country was on a roll with Bill Clinton, we created 2M jobs, paid down our debt and had a rising middle class. Much of the damage Reagan/bush had created was being addressed. The Dot com miracle was going great guns and Gore was beginning to push for a "new economy" which would have kicked in when the dot com bubble came down to earth.  Have you all forgotten how wonderful the times were? We felt we could afford some changes in our economy to a white collar one very easily.  It was irrational exhuberance, but the times allowed us to think big.

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:18:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This thing about White Colllar Economy (0+ / 0-)

        It is shown that to be successful in college at the sciences or engineering, one needs to have an IQ minimum in the 120-125 range.

        Look at the graph below to get a feel for how much of our population gets left behind if all we can do is the "creative stuff."

        Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

        by Dave B on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:45:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  True, but wasn't there the belief (0+ / 0-)

          that for every white collar job created there were several lower level ancillary jobs also created?  I think I read that somewhere. Sound familiar?

          Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

          by hairspray on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:51:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  good point (0+ / 0-)

    and this is something that makes me feel bad for Hill - I'm sure her intentions are good, and that her judgment and aims are more noble than Bill's. But if she's running on their legacy, then you gotta wonder where her leadership is.

    Why didn't she stand up and say something about Nafta at the time if she was so against it? Why didn't she run for office herself if she thought she could put better legislation together?
    She waited until after she became the established political dynasty of the era to put herself at any political risk. That's not brave.

    Where is the courage and the leadership in Hillary's legacy if she bent her will to Bills when it really counted? Sure she means well, and sure she sacrificed her best intentions for her husband's success, but that's not brave or heroic or smart, it's sad. And that's certainly not leadership.

    Say something you don't agree with!

    by Christian Coulon on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:02:10 AM PDT

    •  The bottom line is that she wasn't (0+ / 0-)

      the last word.  Even Carl Bernstein writes about her anger over NAFTA.  But read what I said about NAFTA upthread.

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:20:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is correct (0+ / 0-)

        I'm sure that a lot of folks who cannot forgive Hillary for this would vote for Al Gore in a heartbeat.

        Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

        by Dave B on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:24:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Never can forget - (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dave B, webranding

    that Al Gore , VPOTUS and President Pro Tem of the Senate cast the tie -breaking vote to send NAFTA to President Clinton's desk. For years now , it gives a creepy feeling to realize the weird little Ross Perot had the whole shmear pegged.

  •  You can read Hillary like a book (0+ / 0-)

    Before the debate she was very angry...telling Barack to meet her in Ohio for the debate.  During the debate she fails to bring it to the table.  That is telling because as you can see she is all bark and no bite.

  •  What Blows My Mind About This Whole (4+ / 0-)

    debate is that somehow Americans can't make a product, get paid a solid salary, and the company still make money. A couple years ago Toyota opened a huge plant outside of Evansville IN. They make some of their popular trucks. They're selling well. Win award after award for quality. And last I checked Toyota has found a way to turn a profit.

    And of course a plant of this size has spawned a number of side business to support it. It is just a win, win, win for everybody involved.

    •  The car issue is like many other issues (0+ / 0-)

      one of poor management decisions.  The big three decided some time ago that the profits were in the big autos and so they left the small autos to the foreign competitors, who soon ate their lunch.  Recently i spoke to a furniture maker from GA who said that a number of small companies have taken over special markets and are doing quite well, even as the big companies flounder.  He went on to say that it takes creativity but there are people who can do it.

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:25:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It does not blow my mind at all (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hairspray, EthrDemon

      Toyota opens new plants.  They have no retired workers for whom they owe healthcare benefits and pensions.  Their workers are all younger and have lower health insurance costs.

      The US auto industry is crumbling under the pressure of health benefits.  And we can't find a way to do single payer.

      Meanwhile, American and foreign car companies are building plants in CANADA!  They have higher wages, but guess what?  No health insurance costs!

      Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

      by Dave B on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:30:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not sure (0+ / 0-)

      I'm not an economist, but it's hard to imagine American prosperity ever existing without manufacturing jobs. This seems a fundamental part of our history. How can shipping these jobs out of the country not be very bad? And I have yet to hear someone who's job is threatened by this trend defend it.

  •  Hillary on NAFTA (0+ / 0-)

    As an Obama supporter I actually tend to believe that perhaps Hillary really was not a big fan of NAFTA behind the scenes. Even her statements praising it aren't overwhelming endorsements. It seems to me, however, when talking to an audience which likes free trade, such as the DLC, a world econ forum in Europe, or in a state like New York which benefitted from NAFTA, then NAFTA is just fine. But while campaigning in a state that has been hurt by free trade, then she has always been against it.

    Some Facts

    Her implication that NAFTA was simply a spillover from the first President Bush and passively made law under President Clinton ignores the fierce lobbying Bill Clinton engaged in to get the deal ratified by Congress. Hillary Clinton helped him in that effort.
    President Clinton used his faith in free trade as a core issue to distinguish himself from Democratic orthodoxy and establish a "third way" between politics of the left and right.
    Hillary Clinton counted NAFTA among her husband's leading accomplishments, despite her publicly expressed misgivings about parts of it.
    In 1996, when the pact was three years old, she said the trade deal with Mexico and Canada was giving U.S. workers a chance to compete. "That's what a free and fair trade agreement like NAFTA is all about," she said. "I think NAFTA is proving its worth."
    In a speech to the centrist Democratic Leadership Council in 2002, the New York senator said this of her husband's record:
    "The economic recovery plan stands first and foremost as a testament to both good ideas and political courage. National service. The Brady bill. Family leave. NAFTA. Investment in science and technology. New markets....
    "All of these came out of some very fundamental ideas about what would work. The results speak for themselves."

    •  The CBO released a report recently (0+ / 0-)

      that said NAFTA has been an economic plus for the US and has had negligle job impacts.  So no matter what anyone says about what so and so said, what do you say about that report?

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:28:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can say a bit... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        joe shikspack

        The exports at my company where great.  All the equipment that we shipped to the Mexican plants were called EXPORTS.

        Also, we sent lots of motors out on machines to China.  Any idea what they were going to do with those machines?  They were going to use them to manufacture products that were in direct competition with ours.  But those were exports...

        Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

        by Dave B on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:34:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I know that NAFTA gets a bumb rap which it may (0+ / 0-)

          or may not deserve.  I don't like giving tax credits to companies that outsource and the whole idea of trade agreements seem to be unfair.  Just think about it.  On the other hand, there are tradeoffs and I know we did not stop industrialization a century ago and we are not going to stop globalization now. It just won't happen.  We have to have smart and fair trade, and some people will be hurt. But China had nothing to do with NAFTA.  That is WTO and I did not like that deal going through and it has hurt us a lot.  We seem not to have a way to hold China accountable for the things they do to undercut us.  The idea to reduce China's isolation and its potential for military mischief was sound, but really couldn't we havd done better?

          Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

          by hairspray on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:01:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  For any further comment (0+ / 0-)

        I would have to go over the report with a fine  tooth comb.

        Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

        by Dave B on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:34:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What's sad about her candidacy (0+ / 0-)

    is that is forces the other candidates to rake over the good old days of our last President, instead of seamlessly integrating those days into their own platform.

    Obama's sorta forced into dicrediting those days if he hopes to win against her.

    "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

    by Salo on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:32:42 AM PDT

  •  Carl Bernstein: Hillary Clinton and NAFTA (0+ / 0-)

    Carl Bernstein: Hillary Clinton’s economics, the ones she preached to her husband in the White House are much closer to John Edwards then you would think. She argued with Bill Clinton when she was First Lady, her husband, she said ‘Bill, you are doing Republican economics when you are doing NAFTA.’ She was against NAFTA. And if she would somehow come out and tell the real story of what she fought for in the White House and failed in a big argument with her husband she would end up moving much closer to those Edwards followers.

Permalink | 41 comments