Daily Kos

Clinton running as an independent? Nonsense.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:14:55 PM PDT

I thought that this was pretty common knowledge, especially after the result of the 2000 election, but given some of the sentiments flying about recently and diaries like this, I thought that a diary explaining why it would be ridiculous for Hillary Clinton to run as an independent and why it would not be a good idea to vote for Nader unless you honestly had no preference between the two candidates put forth by the Republican and Democratic Parties.

The main reason that we have two political parties is because of our voting system, single-member district plurality (SMDP).  SMDP is structured such that for a given electoral division (district), there is one winner (single-member) who is decided by earning the most votes for that area (plurality).

FactCheck.org published a brief explanation  as part of their Ask FactCheck series

The reasons here are mainly statistical. Third parties may have statistically significant support (maybe 15 percent of voters in every district supports a third party). But in an SMDP system, the third party may well not win any seats. So those voters will likely join with another party and look for a compromise candidate that could represent them. Similarly, suppose that a district has 200,000 conservative voters and 110,000 liberal voters. One would expect a conservative candidate to be elected. But if two conservative parties each run a candidate, then a liberal candidate may well be elected – unless the conservative parties unite behind a single candidate.

But, one might argue, it isn't always the case that a third party or independent candidate loses.  For instance take the example of the 2006 U.S. Senate race where incumbent Senator Joe Lieberman (who we all know and love) defeated both the Democratic nominee, Ned Lamont, and the Republican nominee, Alan Schlesinger.  However, Presidential races are even more biased against third parties because of the electoral college.

In the election of every other major office, governors, senators, representatives, etc., there is only one "district" which is contested and thus the winner is the one who gets the highest popular vote in that district.  But in the Presidency, there are multiple weighted districts that determine the winnner.  In most cases, these districts are states (with the exception of the District of Columbia).  States are allowed to apportion delegates as they wish, with most choose to give their entire delegation to the candidate who wins the plurality in their state.

This system thus magnifies the effect described by FactCheck.org by raising the actual votes for a candidate away from individual voters to the state delegations.  Thus a third party candidate needs to actually win pluralities in enough states to constitute a majority of the delegates, which is an even more daunting task than winning a single district, because of the diverse terraine and the fact that a second place finish in any district with winner-take-all apportionment (most states), second place is no different than third, fourth, or fifth place.  One cannot simply have a widespread support but also support that is concentrated enough in enough states to win.

There are a couple historical examples of significant third parties disrupting elections that really illustrate that point.  The first and most recent example is of course, the 2000 election.  Here is a map of the results courtesy of the nationalatlas.gov.  The coloration may be confusing, since Bush is blue and Gore is red:

elect00640

As one can see by this official count, Gore lost the electoral vote to Bush.  While this may have been different if the Supreme Court had not stopped the recount in Florida, it would have certainly been different if all Nader voters had instead voted for Gore, which besides giving him the claim of majority support would have added Florida and New Hampshire to his state count.  This is true even if you take all voters for other third party candidates (Buchanan, etc.) and add them to Bush's total, yielding a map that looks like this:

electmod00

The electoral vote would have been Gore 295 Bush 242 and we would have President Gore in the White House right now (assuming re-election).

An even more striking example is the 1912 election, when Woodrow Wilson won the electoral vote by a landslide against incumbent President William Howard Taft and former President Theodore Roosevelt:

elect12640

For a bit of background, both Taft and Roosevelt had competed in the Republican primary, with Taft winning.  However, instead of dropping out, Roosevelt ran on the Progressive Party ticket.  The infighting among the Republicans greatly helped Wilson, who despite only getting 41.8% of the popular vote to the 27.4% of Roosevelt and the 23.2% of Taft (for a combined total of 50.4% of the vote), won 435 electoral votes to Roosevelt's 88 and Taft's 8.  The funny thing is that if you combine the votes for the two "Republicans", Wilson loses decisively:

electmod12

Republican 420 Wilson 111

Granted, perhaps some Taft voters would have voted for Wilson over Roosevelt or vice versa, but the point stands.  If Roosevelt had been the Republican nominee or if he hadn't continued to run after losing the nomination, Woodrow Wilson would never have been President of the United States.

And that is likely what would happen if Clinton ran as an independent.  President McCain would sit in the Oval Office a year from now, which is why she won't run (and why Obama wouldn't she were to somehow win the nomination).  Nader, on the other hand, should be harmless as long as voters, especially voters in swing states, treat him as the irrelevant candidate he is.  All in all though, this stands as a warning against voting for a third party candidate.  Until this system gets the overhaul it badly deserves, voting for third party candidates is at best symbolic unless there has been some serious political tumult that has damaged the either of two parties sufficiently for a third to take over, which doesn't seem likely.

Poll

If your candidate loses the Democratic nomination, what will you do in November?

67%64 votes
7%7 votes
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0%0 votes
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| 95 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Ralph Nader, Electoral College, Third Party, 2008 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 29 comments

    •  Duverger's Law: (0+ / 0-)

      SMPD usually result in a two party system.  
      Trying to thwart it usually means you end up shooting yourself in the foot.  
      Nader should crawl back under the rock where he came from.  Years ago, he was a strong advocate for reform, but now he is a slave to his own ego.  

  •  I am a little sad that this blog was necessary.nt (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    psycho liberal

    An indie run for Hillary. That's a riot.

    •  if you believe HRC is running (I) (0+ / 0-)

      you need your head examined - why COMPLETELY destroy teh Clinton name and legacy for something that would be a failed vanity project

      Bill Clinton never won a majority, merely a low % plurality - and the anti-Clinton negatives are such that without a party machine against a movement like Obama and McCain for the hardcore R supporters

      it makes no sense

      Hillary is a brilliant woman - ideas that treat her like she's a fool benefit no-one

      it is indeed sad this diary was needed if people really think that way

      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:13:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's her her frantic, blogosphere-junkie (0+ / 0-)

        so-called "Clintonista" base that's been pushing bogus crap like this idea.

        She's actually run a pretty predictable, weak campaign, despite all Obama had to say about its magnificence, and she's made up for that with her fervor, but she's not so foolish (or so fervent) as to run without the support of her party. The one-time Goldwater girl's fate is nowadays as tied to the Democratic party as that of the Kennedys.

        •  and therein lies the rub (0+ / 0-)

          she could run to the right of McCain and the wingnuts would still hate her

          i think her campaign has been terrible too

          i think that it shows the Clinton's have an outdated political philosophy IMHO

          in fact those that used to point out Clinton won because of Perot - I always used to dismiss them - but maybe they have a point...

          No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

          by ResponsibleAccountable on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:24:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  There are certain times... (0+ / 0-)

    ...that voting for a third party may have some beneficial result.

    For instance: I live in South Carolina, a state that has been solidly in the Republican camp for years now. I look at voting third party as a way to help build the infrastructure for a real alternative to this stranglehold.

    It certainly didn't hurt Gore's chances here...

    T.

    •  Hope you aren't playing that game in Nov. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gracchus, Cassandra77

      And ask yourself, besides: Does a strong Green party in South Carolina benefit anyone? The Democratic platform is swiftly moving in their direction, and it's because of a social sea change at the popular level, not because a few hundred hard-core Green organizers really got the word out.

      Anyone who says there is no difference between the Democrats and Republicans, after the prime example of Bush, is either being disingenuous (lying to themselves, to be generous) or knows nothing about politics.

      •  Yeah, there was some Greenie on an open thread (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Cassandra77

        a few days ago who seemed to have honestly convinced himself that the last seven years would have passed in exactly the same way had Al Gore been elected - and got very angry when challenged on this assessment.

        Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

        by gracchus on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 01:09:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Green party (at least in Canada) (0+ / 0-)

          is misunderstood, particularly by conservatives.

          The Greens are fiscally conservative, only ecologically "left".

          Ideologically on almost all issues they are between the liberal and conservative viewpoint.

          But, they can't seem to get that message across.

          -6.5, -7.59. Dump Harry Reid. Put in someone who can rid us of Holy Joe Lieberman.

          by DrWolfy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 02:12:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Local races (0+ / 0-)

      Indiana's ballot access laws are among the toughest, but St. John and Frankfort saw third-party candidates win municipal elections.  

      Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

      by Yamaneko2 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:04:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There are ways to effect change (0+ / 0-)

      If the money and time the Greens spent on Nader in 2000 had been devoted to getting a small block of Representatives in Congress, they could have wedged every deal in favor of the environment and really began a movement toward change in this country.

      Next, we need a coordinated effort to change the Electoral College system to proportionality--that means bills that are all tie-barred, like a constitutional amendment. (When the majority of states have adopted this clause...) That will open the door to third party candidacy down the line.

      But right now, a third party presidential bid is stupid.

  •  If she has enough of an ego to run third party... (0+ / 0-)

    ... she won't accept McCain winning as a possibility.

  •  Obama's the one with shallower roots (0+ / 0-)

    in the Democratic Party ideologically. If either would run as an independent, it wouldn't be Hillary. But neither would, I hope.

    •  There's not really a quantitative way to measure (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gracchus, Ericwmr, swissffun

      that.  There are issues where Hillary is closer to the party consensus and there are issues where Barack is.  There is a wide Gulf between both of them and McCain on many issues.  If either ran as an independent, both would be slaughtered, with the independent runner getting the worse end of the stick for betraying the party.

      Respect. Empower. Include.

      by Meng Bomin on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:14:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  what does that comment even mean (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ericwmr

      "shallower roots in the Democratic Party ideologically".  What's that mean.  Sounds like sumfin you just made up.  Judging by your crapola in the diary re Louis Farrakhan, hard to take you seriously to begin with

  •  I live in CA (0+ / 0-)

    There is no point in me voting.

    My vote was relevant in the primaries. I cast it. The primary is over.

    If the campaign is going so badly that California has a chance of flipping - then my 1 vote isn't going to matter. The country will be painted red if California goes red. The only point in voting would be "running up the popular vote total," but as you said, this means nothing in our current democracy.

    I'll vote for my candidate if they win the Democratic primary, but only to feel good about it. There is no point in holding my nose if the wrong candidate wins the nomination. I'll vote Democratic down the ticket, but President will remain blank.

    Real beauty is seldom appreciated by popular culture

    by Mikesco on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:14:10 AM PDT

    •  akh! he has blasphemed !! (0+ / 0-)

      come to it, it's a wonder why any single person ever votes at all, given the negligible return for the time and energy invested. I haven't voted for 20 years. Voted in the primary this time, just to feel good. But I've decided to take the leap of faith, that I MUST VOTE. It's sort of decision like whether or not one believes in god.  Actually, I'd support a law allowing a small tax credit ($25?) to every qualified adult for casting a vote (either for a candidate, or "none of the above") in the presidential election at least.  Australia has this type of system, I understand.

      •  they fine you (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        gracchus

        if you don't vote.  they do not compensate you for voting.  having lived in Australia and had the elecion people come to the house to find out why we had not voted, I know this. Of course we weren't fined when they saw we were American citizens, but we got the scoop on how it worked. BTW, after seeing how the mandatory voting thing worked with many of our friends and acquaintences, I go for the voluntary vote of an informed, motivated citizen anytime.  Of course, hearing about the new PM and the exitement he created was interesting.  like Obama, he motivated a youth vote to get informed.  They had to vote, but they were exited to vote for the new future they desired.  They were ready for the anti-Bush and I have no doubt any Democrat in office will raise our status overseas. Not to mention we'll all breath a sigh of relief.

        "Establishing lasting peace is the work of education; all politics can do is keep us out of war." Maria Montessori

        by educonfidential on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:35:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Cash for voting (0+ / 0-)

        would have a direct impact on one party or the other's turnout (not going to speculate, yawn), so it won't happen. Even if the party who it would favor makes it into heavy control, it would be seen as an entrenchment move--like jerrymandering--and criticized.

    •  One vote never matters. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gracchus, Cassandra77, SciVo, Meng Bomin

      But a million "one votes" do. So don't be a putz. If you're here, you're interested enough in the process to get off your fat, lazy ass and get down to the polls this November, even if it's for the sake of extending the popular lead (or narrowing it, god forbid).

  •  I understand the sentiment of voting third party (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cassandra77

    but (this statement would be ironic to Hillary Clinton, seeing as I am an Obama supporter) sentiment and reality are two different things. The reality is if Nader hadn't been running, it's very likely that 4,000 of our best and bravest and hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis would still be alive today. Maybe Nader voters believe their vote was worth the blood it cost. Maybe they don't. But sugarcoating that FACT gets us nowhere. If people are going to defend voting for Nader, they have to own the good and the bad. In this case, the bad was VERY bad.

    I mean, how bad could Senator John McPalpatine possibly be?

    by terra on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:27:08 AM PDT

  •  She would get Lieberman voters (0+ / 0-)

    and we all know why.

    Racism.

    CBS, the new "Memory Hole" Ask McCain, "Where's Sattar?"!

    by Paul Goodman on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:04:32 AM PDT

  •  Nonsense Squared (0+ / 0-)

    And when she loses, where would she go? Right now, she has a brilliant future, either as a leader in the Senate or if she prefers (since her governor is a Democrat) in the administration. If she acts civilized she can get what she wants, and effect the change she wants. If she were sincere, she could ask to be HHS Secretary in return for an early withdrawal. (Yeah, I know Obama doesn't cut deals...but it's so logical.)

    Leave the party? She loses, then loses any chance at a committee chairmanship or Majority Leader. Next round, she probably loses the Senate election. Does she knit? I bet not well. And she's not stupid.

Permalink | 29 comments