Daily Kos

The most important thing about being a Democrat: vetting our candidate.

Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:12:48 AM PDT

Matt Gonzalez over at BeyondChron.org wrote a brilliant exposé on Barack Obama that must be shared.  The hardest part of trying to get Democrats elected to power is vetting them, especially during election years in which people are so desperate for someone who can deliver on a promise of change that they fail to look past the campaign rhetoric to see the truth.  I've explained that Barack Obama is a DLCer in progressive's clothing.  Mr. Gonzalez hammers the point home.

It has been claimed by uncritical supporters that Obama's record in the U.S. Senate is progressive, but this is far from the truth (a fact easily verified by going to GovTrack.us and doing some homework).  It is undeniable that the senator from Illinois has consistently voted to fund the Iraq war, with the sole exception being that he was shamed by Christopher Dodd of Connecticut into voting against last Summer's appropriations bill.  Matt Gonzalez writes:

Since taking office in January 2005 he has voted to approve every war appropriation the Republicans have put forward, totaling over $300 billion. He also voted to confirm Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State despite her complicity in the Bush Administration’s various false justifications for going to war in Iraq. Why would he vote to make one of the architects of "Operation Iraqi Liberation" the head of US foreign policy? Curiously, he lacked the courage of 13 of his colleagues who voted against her confirmation.

The senator from Illinois has been less than enthusiastic in advocating for a full withdrawal from Iraq.  Obama has also, as Gonzalez points out, voted to re-authorize the USA PATRIOT Act -- one of the more heinous attacks on civil liberties in this decade -- in stark contrast to his prior work as a civil rights attorney.  Somewhere along the way, Obama was either corrupted on the issue of civil liberties, or else he has been fooling people on where he actually stands from the beginning.  Either way, his record on the occupation of Iraq and on civil liberties are not consistent with his rhetoric on the campaign trail.

On class action lawsuits, Gonzalez writes:

In 2005, Obama joined Republicans in passing a law dubiously called the Class Action Fairness Act (CAFA) that would shut down state courts as a venue to hear many class action lawsuits. Long a desired objective of large corporations and President George Bush, Obama in effect voted to deny redress in many of the courts where these kinds of cases have the best chance of surviving corporate legal challenges. Instead, it forces them into the backlogged Republican-judge dominated federal courts.

And on credit interest rates:

Obama has a way of ducking hard votes or explaining away his bad votes by trying to blame poorly-written statutes. Case in point: an amendment he voted on as part of a recent bankruptcy bill before the US Senate would have capped credit card interest rates at 30 percent. Inexplicably, Obama voted against it, although it would have been the beginning of setting these predatory lending rates under federal control. Even Senator Hillary Clinton supported it.

Are you seeing anything to suggest that Obama is a progressive, yet?  I'm not.  I've written about this before, but it's worth repeating: health care "reform".  Given Obama's record of gutting actual health care reform in the Illinois state senate, one can't help but nod in agreement when Matt Gonzalez explains:

Obama opposed single-payer bill HR676, sponsored by Congressmen Dennis Kucinich and John Conyers in 2006, although at least 75 members of Congress supported it. Single-payer works by trying to diminish the administrative costs that comprise somewhere around one-third of every health care dollar spent, by eliminating the duplicative nature of these services. The expected $300 billion in annual savings such a system would produce would go directly to cover the uninsured and expand coverage to those who already have insurance, according to Dr. Stephanie Woolhandler, an Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and co-founder of Physicians for a National Health Program.

Obama’s own plan has been widely criticized for leaving health care industry administrative costs in place and for allowing millions of people to remain uninsured. "Sicko" filmmaker Michael Moore ridiculed it saying, "Obama wants the insurance companies to help us develop a new health care plan-the same companies who have created the mess in the first place."

And as Gonzalez points out, Obama went to bat for Joe LIEberman for re-election in 2006 against challenger Ned Lamont (whom this web site supported) and referred to the turncoat as his mentor.  Yeah, real "progressive" of Obama to try to prop up a party traitor who has consistently enabled the Bush-Cheney regime at every opportunity, and who endorses Republican John McCain for president.

I realize Obama supporters don't like to read the truth about their candidate, and who can blame them?  After eight years of destructive Republican policies, the desperation for some actual change -- even if it is only an illusion -- is certainly understandable.  But it is because desperation can lead to making serious mistakes in an election year critical to America's future that it is important for Democrats to know exactly who it is we're prepared to hand the nomination to.  Barack Obama simply is not a progressive, he's just another DINO who has somehow managed to fool a lot of people.

Hope is not lost, however.  We can and should focus our efforts to get true Progressives elected to Congress, so that a (we hope) Democratic president may be pushed in the correct direction on issues such as getting out of Iraq and passing true health care reform.  It's still early in the year, and we still have a chance to be the change we want to see in this country.  It's not enough to simply get Democrats elected to power; the failures of the last year have proven that.  We must work to get the right Democrats -- Progressive ones -- seats in the Legislature and in state offices across the country.

Only then can we expect to succeed in pushing Barack Obama, should he win the nomination and become president, to achieve actual change.



P.S.

One of the clique trolls demanded to know yesterday who I think I am to be handing out advice to Democrats in this election year.  My profile explains that in part, namely that I am a Progressive Democrat and a precinct committeeman.  I'm also a Democrat who is sick and tired of watching DINOs and clique trolls sabotage his political party during election cycles, with their endless attacks on other Democrats for the "crime" of (Gasp!) daring to question candidates aspiring to public office under the banner of the Democratic Party.

I'm sure I'm not alone in my annoyance.  (Being called a "unit" and referred to as an "it" by the aforementioned clique troll, threatened, and subjected to abuses of the TR system that run away from explaining how a tip jar might violate site rules, tends to be rather irritating, and I know I'm not the only diarist the clique trolls gang up on.)  I mean, yes, this is a partisan web site.  But guess what?  I'm a partisan Democrat.  I am neither a sell-out or a coward.  And I've never subscribed to the notion that because this is a partisan web site it means we're not allowed to question or criticize within the party.

Anyway, I'm taking the weekend off, as well as next week.  Ohio's primary is this coming Tuesday, and I want to focus my efforts during this Crunch Time helping a real Democrat win his primary.  In closing, I leave you with this YouTube video:

P.S.S.

In the interests of full disclosure, BeyondChron.org reports that Gonzalez has been chosen as Ralph Nader's running mate.  Which means the Nader-haters shall dismiss anything and everything he has to say, no matter that it's true.  But I thought it only fair, in the interest of telling the whole truth, to let you know about this.

Tags: 2008, Election, Dennis Kucinich, Matt Gonzalez, Ralph Nader, Barack Obama, Progressives, Clique Trolls (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 78 comments

  •  Wait. (14+ / 0-)

    Matt Gonzalez, the Green Party candidate for Vice President?

    Yeah, great source.  So, are you supporting the Democratic nominee in 2008?

    •  Not Green Party (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mcfly, trashablanca, Pager

      America for Nader.  All 200 of them.

    •  Oh, Adam, you ruined Archangel's surprise. (0+ / 0-)

      But I'm sure he'll recover and report back to his new found buddies at PFF about his experiment. He was so hoping to be banned and troll rated today. I'm sure he's heartbroken to find that no one cares enough about what he has to say to even stick around and comment.

      Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

      by Pager on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:21:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Already did report back. (0+ / 0-)

        See, you're behind the ball.  Anyway, if you read my previous diary entries I think you'll find out who I intend to vote for when casting my ballot in the presidential election.  I've made no secret of it.

        •  Hey buddy, how's it going for you today? (0+ / 0-)

          Are you being treated well?

          Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

          by Pager on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:42:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Surprisingly enough, yes. (0+ / 0-)

            I guess the Clique Trolls (except for Pegasus) took the day off today.  Either that, or the ricin story has eclipsed other entries for attention.  Either way, I'm mildly and pleasantly surprised.  Lunch break's over now, time to get back to making calls.  But thanks for your concern for my well being.

            •  You are so very welcome, little one. (0+ / 0-)

              I worry that this place might be a bit rough for such a tender spirit such as yourself. Good to see you have recovered...oh wait, I guess not, or you wouldn't feel obliged to update all 12 readers over at PFF of your daily progress here at the big mean Orange.

              See you around, champ. Keep your chin up.

              Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

              by Pager on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:18:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My chin's always up. (0+ / 0-)

                And I have a thicker hide than you care to think.  Too bad it doesn't amount to a hill of beans against abuse of the rating system by Clique Trolls.

                •  Yes, that is a crying shame. Boo hoo. :( n/t (0+ / 0-)

                  Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                  by Pager on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 12:47:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm glad you think so. (0+ / 0-)

                    Thank you so much for your concern.  I can't tell you just how much I appreciate it.  You've been so kind to me, being here to sympathize and be a shoulder for me to lean on.  It takes someone of a certain character to watch out for me as you have.  Really!  Why, if something were to happen to me, like the Clique Trolls ganging up on me to finally get me auto-banned, I don't know what I'd do.

                    Other than, you know, continue to post any of the other blog web sites I frequent.  Some of which are fully aware of what goes on here, and have no problem cataloging the bad behavior so that the rest of the blogosphere knows what's going on.

                    But I digress.  Anyway, why should I worry?  I have you here to look out for me.  I just want to let you know how much I appreciate your concern.  Again, thank you so much.

                    :^)

                    •  And again, you are SO very, very welcome, sweets. (0+ / 0-)

                      Feel free to respond to me as much as you want. I'm here for you, during your dark period of blogging.

                      Chin up, lad. You're gonna be just fine. I just know it.

                      Oh and FYI? The rest of the blogosphere doesn't give a rat's fuck what happens here or at PFF. Neither PFF or DKos is that important, except to you, apparently.

                      Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                      by Pager on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 01:34:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Such language! (0+ / 0-)

                        And here I was hoping you'd try to keep up the charade a little bit longer.  But I guess my last comment was a bit much for you.  Word to the not-so-wise: condescension isn't a strength, and sarcasm only works for talented people -- you know, like the late Mike Royko.

                        As for this remark of yours:

                        Feel free to respond to me as much as you want.

                        Admit it, you can't get enough of me.  ;^P

                        •  . (0+ / 0-)

                          Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                          by Pager on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 02:18:00 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Aren't you going to add my latest period (0+ / 0-)

                          to your growing photobucket opus, darling?

                          I feel saddened that you chose to leave it out. Tell Sabrina hi for all of us here. We do miss her so much.

                          And make sure you do post this one...it will give the little darling such a thrill, I'm sure. :)

                          Kisses!

                          Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                          by Pager on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 03:13:57 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I now officially know too much. (0+ / 0-)

                            I mean, I didn't know you were into that sort of kink.  Listen babe, I know we've only been married a few hours, but you're about to put a premature end to this honeymoon.  No one wants to hear about your monthlies, much less see pictures of the whole bloody mess.  Seriously, that's just gross.

                            But it's okay hon, because I'm a forgiving fellow.  Kiss and make up?

                            •  Don't do it! Don't end this beautiful thing (0+ / 0-)

                              called love.

                              Kisses. I love you still. If I'm willing to put up with your tiny penis, the least you can do is accept my menstrual cycle. It's only fair, don't you think?

                              Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                              by Pager on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 03:33:37 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  Ouch! The honeymoon is truly over now. (0+ / 0-)

                                I can certainly understand why you'd think my member tiny, dearest, considering the gaping canyon that is your love hole.  What can I say?  I can't help loving wide-open women, if you take my meaning.

                                •  No, I'm sorry, I don't take your meaning. (0+ / 0-)

                                  Could you expand on that further, little one? I'm sure loads of folks would like to see you spell out your vulgarity.  

                                  And I'm guessing that you really don't measure up, from the defensive tone of your comment. Sorry God didn't endow you. Don't take it out on us women. It ain't our fault you can't pack a punch, if you take my meaning.

                                  Does this mean our lovefest is officially over or shall we keep corresponding in hopes of a reconciliation? Because I'm going to be here and at Docu. long after you flame out on both and I just don't want to get too involved if you are going to be a typical loser and get yourself autobanned. :)

                                  Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                                  by Pager on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 04:59:44 PM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

  •  Wait a minute...not a pro-Obama Diary... (6+ / 0-)

    That could be an issue here with the majority of Kossacks...I thought this was an Obama Coronation Blog...

    Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

    by dvogel001 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:20:02 AM PDT

  •  Being referred (5+ / 0-)

    to as a unit or an it is just beyond rude!  Shame on those who do it.

    Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Bickering Moratorium!

    by mango on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:24:45 AM PDT

  •  Good Luck With Dennis (6+ / 0-)

    seriously -- i really like Dennis a lot, and he more than deserves to secure his Congressional seat long into the future

    i am very glad to have his voice in the Democratic party ...

  •  largely codswallop (5+ / 0-)

    and written by the Green Party VP candidate- a truly disinterested party.  I'm so sick of their bullshit.  Look, even those in the Senate most staunchly opposed to the war have largely voted to fund it, and Obama has voted for virtually all the legisaltion mandating troop withdrawal.  

    Is he a progressive?  His record is mixed.  He clearly has progressive instincts mixed with political pragmatism. Obama's a fuck of a lot more progressive the JMac and that's where we are right now.  As Pema Chodron would say:  "Start where you are".

    Matt Gonzales is a marginal figure trying desperately to get some attention, any attention, and this piece makes clear that he's yet another asshole black and white thinker.  

    two cheers for democracy

    by ClaryinVT on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:27:43 AM PDT

  •  Houston superdelegate switches support to Obama (0+ / 0-)

    "We need men who can dream of things that never were." John F. Kennedy, stop the drama,vote Obama!http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/sb7

    by norahschronicles on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:31:53 AM PDT

  •  Wrong site (6+ / 0-)

    I think you meant to post this at "votenader.org" -- not the site with the FAQs that clearly state this is a blog dedicated to electing DEMOCRATS.

    Be gone.

    I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

    by zonk on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:34:51 AM PDT

  •  Post all you want (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ArtfromMI

    At this stage in the game, you will hardly be changing anyone's minds here. There may be few undecideds left, but for the most part, you know that this site tends to favor Obama.

  •  While I don't doubt the impartiality of the Green (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    vbdietz

    Party VP candidate the same criticisms could be leveled at either of the Dem candidates. Coming off as left-wing doesn't win an election.

    Obama is left, center-left, and center. HRC is  center, center-right, and right.

    Neither of them are just plain old left.

    Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

    by JayGR on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:38:14 AM PDT

  •  You've convinced me (7+ / 0-)

    I'm voting for John McCain this November.  We need a maverick who has attached himself at the hip of George W. Bush as President, instead of a competent politician like Barack Obama.

    John McCain is NOT a Bush supporter. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a Bush supporter, but he is NOT a porn star.

    by DH from MD on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:40:37 AM PDT

  •  Anybody want to consider the idea of (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mango, Archangel M

    unity?

    Sorry for the pimping. I just think it's a novel idea. :)

    Interesting diary. Looks like neither of our candidates are suitable for all Dems. Maybe together...

  •  The Dems are down to two (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mcfly, trashablanca, Osaka

    Clinton or Obama.

    Clinton is certainly a DLCer, Obama may be a DLCer.  I'll take my chances with the one who may not be a DLCer.

    John McCain's Something for Everyone Plan: Military draft for youth, SS benefit cuts for elderly, Middle Class destruction, stock market plunge for wealthy.

    by IhateBush on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:56:35 AM PDT

  •  We had a chance to choose (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BetterTogether, Pegasus

    Dennis Kucinich as our candidate, but he's not in the race anymore. Mind picking from what we have left?

    Obama need not agree with you on every single issue for you to support him in the general election (or remaining primaries). Nor was Dennis or Gravel ever going to have a chance of winning in the general election.

    Since you're not attempting to compare Obama to Hillary, I find your argument to be pretty much moot.

    Dean in the Cabinet, please!

    by Osaka on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:58:26 AM PDT

    •  I caucused for Kucinich.... (6+ / 0-)

      In Maine after he had left the race.  Our precinct managed to get him one delegate to the state convention.

      Sure, it's largely symbolic at this point, but I think it is important to register one's real opinion and let the party know that not everyone is satisfied with the two remaining candidates.

      That being said, the delegate we selected for the state convention has pledged that if she switches her allegiance at the state convention, she will go to Obama and will definitely not go to Clinton.  

      All in all, I left the caucus feeling pretty damn good:  I got to vote for the candidate I really wanted with the knowledge that my vote may go to a candidate who I am becoming more enthusiastic about, and that it would not go to a person who I will in no way vote for in November if she becomes the nominee.

      "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

      by cometman on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 07:40:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, I do mind (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vox humana

      picking from what is left.  Left over, that is.

      But I'll do it. :(

      Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

      by dfarrah on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:22:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for insulting our intelligence (9+ / 0-)

    Whenever people make blanket statements about what Obama supporters do or do not "want to believe" I tune out.

    This may come as a shock, but I do not consider Obama a progressive. He is a liberal, by nature of his record. But he's no Kucinich. He's also no centrist. His votes are all over the place, in that regard. He has voted with and against Republican on many issues.

    But there's a method to his madness that you don't get when you look at votes out of context.

    For example, he originally supported Single Payer. He tried hard to get that passed. But he found out there was no way in hell he was going to get what he wanted, so he sought out a compromise solution.

    This is where Clinton failed, and Obama succeeded. Clinton compromised when preparing her health care plan too, but in such a way that too few were left to support it, and in fact no plan passed.

    Obama, by contrast, forged a coalition and managed to get increased healthcare coverage for children, which was at least a step in the right direction.

    Most people have no idea how hard it is to get legislation created and passed. They think if you have the right idea, everyone will just go along and support you. But that's not how it works! Of the two, Obama proved, by far, to be the more effective legislator on healthcare.

    So please. Context is everything. And stop making generalizations about Obama supporters as a group. It's insulting to our intelligence and as bad as racism. No group of people will ever behave in unison, and shouldn't be talked about as if they do.

    •  You Said It All (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BetterTogether

      " Most people have no idea how hard it is to get legislation created and passed" .unquote
      Also with a staunch majority opposition . That is why we need to fight tooth and nail to tip the balance in favor of Progressive candidates . Then the real work can begin . This is the comfort that the Republicans have enjoyed for so long , and that is why we are where we are today .

    •  Thanks for an insightful comment. (0+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Catrina

      I'll respond by asking you how FDR and the New Dealers managed to get their legislative agenda passed a clearly hostile Republican bloc that fought tooth and nail to oppose it.  I'll give you a hint: it wasn't by giving up and helping the GOP prevent badly needed legislation from ever coming to fruition.

      Just something to consider.

      I also am glad that you're at least making the effort to explain Obama's weaknesses as a politician.  While I disagree with your assessment of his record (your explanation seems to indicate that your candidate really doesn't know where he stands on anything, a criticism often leveled at Hillary Clinton in particular and Democrats in general), I do respect that you're trying to offer an explanation that makes sense.  I up-rated your comment for that reason.

      •  The Truth Being ..... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BetterTogether

        There is not much to compare with the plight of these United States with the situation beginning 1932 .
        In the short answer - you will find that FDR had an overwhelming majority of the popular vote, and considering the plight of our nation at that time there was not a possibility of that support being thwarted .
        Read : Franklin D. Roosevelt And The New Deal -by
        William E. Leuchtenburg  c):1963
        Perhaps this scoffed at Obama movement compares in theory , but not in context .

      •  The new dealers were born of the Depression... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vox humana

        ...We aren't yet that desperate here.

        And people like Huey Long in Louisiana and Upton Sinclair running for Governor of California on an outright socialist platform, made FDR look moderate. The Republicans had fallen very far from favor since they were perceived as having created, through outrageous greed, the events that precipitated the depression.

        Again, context is everything.

        Re Obama - don't misunderstand. I was just saying he's not as neatly categorized as some. His votes on issues place him solidly in the liberal camp, despite his rhetoric. Some of his legislation has been excellent. Some has just been so-so.

        •  I can see where you're coming from. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          vox humana

          But I think we're closer to another depression than many people realize.  According to writer Michael Fox, we entered into the beginning of an economic depression last November, and has reported earlier this month that it has entered Phase Two.  What's kept things from imploding completely is largely the denial of the government that anything is wrong, but Herbert Hoover insisted everything was rosy when the last one hit in 1929.  We all know how "magnificently" that turned out.  In real terms, people at the street level know that the economy is in the toilet; the economic hardship is undeniable to someone living paycheck to paycheck, with no end to the bad times in sight.  Fox writes:

          There’s been much talk about fear of Recession, but I wrote in November that we were in the beginning of a new Depression. And this Depression will be so chaotic that it won’t conform to any previous definitions. High unemployment, inflation due to printed money, simultaneously drastic deflation in the housing sector. Unemployment is rising beyond the wildest estimates of economists. Banks and Financial Institutions are so close to insolvency that they are selling off chunks of stock just to maintain their credit worthiness, and it isn’t working. And the FDIC?

          Just a thought about the FDIC and your bank account: There used to be something called the FSLIC, which got depleted when the Savings and Loans were deregulated and blew it on risky investments in the 1980s. The one still-seated member of The Keating Five (five Senators who used influence to avert oversight in return for campaign contributions -look up the details if you don't remember): Senator John McCain. Probably the last guy you’d want in charge at a time like this, and he just nabbed the Republican nomination.

          Buy precious metals.

  •  Well, (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BetterTogether, ArtfromMI

    It's pretty clear why Mr. Gonzalez was chosen.  Ralph plans to earn his money this time around as a Republican hatchet man.

  •  Oh, elusive purity. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BobzCat, BetterTogether

    Welcome to the real world.  The world where one can vote differently than the far left wing of the party now and again without being labeled a DINO.

    Or... you can keep listening to voices from outside the party, lead a campaign of bitching and moaning against our nominee, and then whine about how people call you on it. Entirely up to you, but nobody's going to stop calling you on it.

    Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower

    by Pegasus on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 07:09:58 AM PDT

  •  Sorry you put up with so much flack (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dfarrah, vox humana, Catrina, Archangel M

    First, I think the point you're making here about bankruptcy bill votes is a really important one.

    I just don't have the energy to research all of this, but, in my opinion, bankruptcy bills tend to be really good litmus test bills, because what's right or wrong there is often extremely clear cut.

    If a lawmaker really, sincerely believes a fetus is a human being, for example, I feel uncomfortable with making abortion a litmus test for that lawmaker. I probably would, on purely practical grounds, but, still, I don't think there's anything inherently evil about being sentimental about fetuses. When my daughter I was a fetus, I certainly thought of her as being a human being -- especially when she grabbed the amnio needle and wiggled it, hard.

    Similarly, I can picture someone who, for completely sincere reasons, thought the United States had a moral obligation to try to get Saddam Hussein out of power.

    But there's just no possible moral way to justify letting banks impose 80 percent interest rates on poor people. That's not really even a conservative versus liberal issue. It's just a decent person versus a creep issue.

    So, I really do wish I had seen more people here discussing and analyzing the candidates' positions on bankruptcy bills and similar bills.

    On the other hand: to some extent, I think a fair number of us here would define ourselves as moderate Democrats, or maybe we'd say we were liberal Democrats in the sense that we're all Spartacus. I'll say I'm liberal because I'm angry about bullying of liberals, but I don't think I'm really all that liberal compared, for example, to Gerald Ford.

    But I think you're obviously right that Obama is a moderate or moderate progressive, not a very progressive progressive (as someone who likes the Green Party goals might define that).

    Personally, I like the fact that Obama's been a moderate progressive. But I think it's funny that Obama supporters who think of themselves as being progressive progressives, who get caught up in Obama's rhetoric, fail to notice that his actual positions often give him room to be as progressive or as conservative as he wants to be. They're getting mad at you for pointing out the stuff that Obama has, essentially, posted on his own Web site for all the world to see.

    And the funny thing is the stuff you're criticizing might be the sort of stuff that makes Obama electable in November. So, it could be that a lot of Obama supporters are trollrating you for emphasizing (in a somewhat critical way) the very stuff that will get their guy into the White House.

    •  Yeah, the banking (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vox humana, Catrina

      bill was beyond heinous and completely immoral.

      Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

      by dfarrah on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:25:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  On the other hand . . . (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vox humana

        I think a lot of the reasons for these votes can be very complicated.

        Maybe Obama could have voted for bill X, which was going to win anyway, because he got good thing Y done, or something like that.

        So, a "bad" Obama vote on a bill like this could be a symptom of opportunism, a symptom of naivete, a sign of some kind of deal that he made, etc.

        To me, the worst scenario would be if he didn't understand what he was voting for and just voted the way a nice lobbyist told him to vote.

        The best scenario would be if he voted the way he did because he knew the bad bill was going to pass, anyway, he cut some deal that made another bill that actually passed a better bill.

        •  Sadly, I see no indication of that. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          dfarrah

          Looking over his record, I don't find anything to suggest that Obama voted a certain way on bad legislation as part of any deal to pass better bills.  I think he really did vote the way he has on these bills for the purposes of political opportunism, or because he actually agreed with the legislation or amendment(s).

          I mean, if you think about it, what does it say about his character?  On the one hand, voting so as not to be judged "too liberal" feeds ammunition to the GOP spin machine that shall inevitably try to portray him as a flip-flopper who doesn't really stand for anything.  On the other hand, if Obama actually voted the way he did because he agrees with the bills or amendments that have harmed Americans, it is proof that he isn't what he pretends to be on the campaign trail; that he is, in fact, a conservative Democrat unlikely to do anything to effect change in direction when America wants it most.

          •  Hmmmmm, (0+ / 0-)

            I think he is one who doesn't stand for much, except self promotion.

            Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

            by dfarrah on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:53:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Would you happen to know how Kucinich or other (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            vox humana

            "good" members of Congress voted on the bills?

            And how did HRC vote on the bills?

            If, say, Kucinich voted the same way, or we talked to Kucinich and Kucinich said, "Well, I disagree with HRC and Obama, and here's why they voted the way they did, and it sort of makes sense," that would carry a lot of weight with me.

            If Kucinich says, "Well, the American Bankers Association came along with a checkbook . . . ," that's a somewhat different thing.

            I do think, in a lot of cases, when Democrats are deciding which devil to sell their souls to, they choose devils such as the bankers, because the bankers  are sympathetic to or neutral toward Democratic positions on a lot of issues. Also, Chicago is a big banking center, etc. etc.

            But I think your key point, that Obama really is not Dennis Kucinich with more savoir faire, is correct.

            Also, if you're plugged in there in Ohio: would you happen to have any observations on how plugged in people there who actually know Obama or HRC think of  them? Do they generally like these folks, or say, "Bah, humbug," or what?

            •  HRC voted against this (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              sclminc

              bill.

              You'd probably make a good PR [or excuse-making] person for a politician.

              Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

              by dfarrah on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:01:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's a shame that HRC doesn't publicize (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Archangel M

                those sorts of votes more effectively.

                And it could well be that she talks about this sort of thing on some part of her Web site that I'll never see, but it would be great if someone would come here and really explain and drive home the ways in which her supporters think her voting record is better than Obama's.

                And, on the flip side, it would be great if more Obama knowledgeable supporters were here trying to describe and defend Obama's votes, rather than just trollrating people who criticize him. I suspect that you're right and that the hypothethical counter arguments I was making were wrong, but I feel as if I have to try to keep an open mind, because I don't really know.

            •  I do have the links to GovTrack.us bookmarked. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              sclminc, Catrina

              That web site tracks how members of Congress have voted on bills, and their attendance records.  Did you know that Clinton has missed about 6% of votes in the Senate since January 2001, as opposed to Obama's whopping 17% since January 2005?

              Another note of interest is that there is not a significant difference in the voting records of Clinton and Obama.  That doesn't fill me with confidence or enthusiasm for either of them.

              As to your question about how Kucinich voted, he is a co-author of HR 676, which would bring every American under Medicare coverage.  Here's the link to how he has voted this year on legislation:

              http://www.govtrack.us/...

        •  Well, when there's (0+ / 0-)

          something that is so obviously bad in a bill.....

          And, while it's a nice notion you bring up [that maybe BO traded this vote for support on a better bill], I don't think your suggested 'best scenario' happened.  

          Otherwise, surely the BO supporters would have loudly proclaimed so in every other diary.

          Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

          by dfarrah on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:51:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think one clearly true thing is that Obama (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Catrina, Archangel M

            will drive a lot of progressives up a tree if he becomes president.

            Obama and HRC could pleasantly surprise a Kucinich-wavelength person by at least trying to be nice and by not being all that bad.

            But I think I can predict with virtual certainty that, even if you sort of ended up liking a President Obama or a President Hillary Clinton, you'd end up spending a lot of time wanting to throw your shoes at the TV every time they got up and spoke on TV about policy proposals. Unless there's an 80 percent progressive Democratic majority (not just a Democratic majority, a true blue majority) in the House and the Senate, there's no way even Dennis Kucinich could really please a true progressive with legislative proposals that actually had a hope of passing.

            The great thing for you is that at least you understand you're going to want to throw your shoes at the TV.

            What's unfortunate is that a lot of the people here who now want to throw their shoes at HRC when she's on TV (NOT in real life; I'm talking about hostility toward televised images; not physical attacks with shoes) fail to understand that they're going to want to throw those same shoes at Obama if he's in the White House 3 years from now.

            I'm a really nice, tolerant person who liked the Clinton presidency and could find nice thoughts to think about Reagan and Bush I some of the time, so I'm pretty sure I'll want to keep my shoes on my feet if Obama's in office. But I think the sad thing is that, if Obama gets into the White House, the people who are fainting when he speaks now are probably going to be his most vicious enemies. You and MMorang will probably be the reluctant defenders who try to protect him against the wingnut Swift Boaters when push comes to shove.

            So, if you're in a swing state, I hope you can take a lot of Tylenol (or Vicodin?) in November and vote for Obama, because at least he wouldn't appoint the same kinds of people to the courts that McCain would appoint. But I understand that doing that will hurt. At least (if Obama wins) you'll have the pleasure of being able to think, "I told you so!" in 2009.

        •  how Many People .... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sclminc

          have access to the language or amendments of bills in congress . Which ones passed . Which ones died . You are right it is very complicated , and trying to read those bills is mind boggling (for me anyway) , and most people don't even care enough to search them out .

          •  It's kind of (0+ / 0-)

            their job, you know.  That's why they attend law school.

            Obviously, they can't read every word of every bill; but the banking bill was hotly argued.  How could he have just 'overlooked' it?

            Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

            by dfarrah on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:59:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No . You Missunderstood .... (0+ / 0-)

              I was referring to people , voters and the public in general . Many of us at the KOZ may take the time to research bills and who supported them , but but I doubt the general public does even with internet access .

  •  Hate to quibble (0+ / 0-)

    but I guess it depends on what you mean by "our" candidate.

    •  What does the full title say? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vox humana, Catrina

      Seeing as how most or all of us here at DK are Democrats (that does include me, whether certain people like it or not), "our" candidate means exactly what the title says: the Democratic candidate.  Since it is increasingly likely that our party's nominee is going to be Barack Obama, we must vet him before the general election.  If we wait until after he gets the nomination, we'll have lost precious time in which to mount an effective counter to the inevitable GOP spin machine.

      Furthermore, we can and should make every effort to make sure that the 111th Congress has more actual progressives than the dismal failure that is the 110th.  That way, we can be surer that a Democratic president is likelier to support more progressive legislation and not waffle under to placate Republican fear-mongering and obstructionism.

      •  but your diary (0+ / 0-)

        is essentially the Green Party critique, no?

        •  Not really. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          vox humana

          It's a progressive critique, and one that isn't restricted to the Green Party.  A lot of Progressive Democrats feel very strongly about the issues, and many of us have legitimate concerns over Obama's record.  I think the beltway establishment has really underestimated how far the political pendulum has swung back to the left, and these people need to be aware that settling for the same DLC-type politics isn't going to cut it this time.  It has been said the "perfect is the enemy of the good," something I disagree with but won't go into now.  What I will say is that progressives aren't even asking for the 'perfect'.  We're asking for the 'good', but being saddled with the mediocre.

          There's also a practical, electoral aspect to this critique.  As I'm sure you're aware, the Republican Noise Machine is going to use any and every vote to try to tarnish the senator from Illinois, should he win the Democratic nomination.  We need to be able to counter this stuff sooner rather than later, before the general election.

  •  I Think (0+ / 0-)

    that Archangel is just showing frustration with the choices we have as Dems.  I am also a progressive and not too damn thrilled with my choices.  The DLC has done an excellent job of removing ALL progressive candidates.  But wait!  I am being told that the two candidates we have now are spouting progressive ideals.Sorry sport fans, these people are not progressives.

    I have been told that we are here to elect democrats.  Cool!  I am all for that, but do we abandon principles, just so that we can say that there is a Dem in the WH?  No matter how we may disagree with their positions.

    Yes I am a DEMOCRAT.  will I vote that way?  That is my decision not anyone elses.

    Peace---Out!

    To be loved is to be fortunate, but to be hated is to achieve distinction.

    by CHUQ on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:24:13 AM PDT

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