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Garnish your wages, or: Is our Clintons learnin'?

Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:24:35 AM PDT

"She'll garnish your wages." If Senator Hillary Clinton is chosen as the Democratic nominee, mark my words: This will be a lead slogan for the Republican opposition.

And it goes to show that despite all her talk of "experience," Clinton has not learned much about politics since the early 90s.

Let me go back a couple of steps to provide some context to the argument.

Hillary Clinton and her supporters regularly tout the Senator and former First Lady as the candidate of experience.

But I submit that she is the candidate of bad experience, and of failing to learn from experience. And on this subject, the topic of how to promote universal health care in this country is Exhibit A.

In the early 90s, as everyone knows, Hillary Clinton tried but failed to reform the nation's health care system. An admirable goal... but secrecy and political hamhandedness abetted the health care industry, its lobbyists, and its paid defenders in Congress, who sent her plan down in flames.

Clinton, while touting her experience, spins this negative example as a "learning experience," one that redoubled her commitment to getting it right the next time.

But has she really learned from her mistake? Read on...

But this weekend, national TV viewers found out that she has not learned much of anything about selling a health care reform. The Associated Press has the story:

Clinton health plan may mean tapping pay

WASHINGTON - Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Sunday she might be willing to garnish the wages of workers who refuse to buy health insurance to achieve coverage for all Americans.

The New York senator has criticized presidential rival Barack Obama for pushing a health plan that would not require universal coverage. Clinton has not always specified the enforcement measures she would embrace, but when pressed on ABC's "This Week," she said: "I think there are a number of mechanisms" that are possible, including "going after people's wages, automatic enrollment."

Now I have to wonder: Has Hillary Clinton actually learned any-
thing about politics in the past 15 years?

For if she had, she would know that the specter of the government seizing your wages is a threat that will be siezed upon by the Republican party to destroy her candidacy, if she becomes the nominee.

"She'll garnish your wages" is the kind of phrase that will drive even the most committed middle- and lower-class supporter of universal
health care back to the Republican party. Somewhere, Frank Luntz is cackling with glee.

I'm not talking about whether she is right on wrong on her approach; I'm talking about whether she understands the people, the media and how the Karl Roves of the opposition re-frame debates to set back reform. However effective she may think her garnisheeing approach would be, she should have learned enough about politics and messaging to know better than to hand the Republicans this ammunition.

Yes, Hillary Clinton is the candidate of experience.

The candidate of bad experience.

The candidate of failing to learn from experience.

A vote for Obama is a vote for intelligent, fresh experiene, unsaddled with the baggage and habits of the past.

---------

UPDATE: Given the early comments, I wish to add this clarification.

I'm not arguing whether Clinton or Obama has the better plan. I'm arguing that Hillary stepped right into this framing trap, thus showing that she did not learn from her previous experience watching her health care reform dream go down the drain. Other diaries would be the place to debate the best way to change health care -- I'm talking about whether Hillary Clinton understands, after all this time, why she failed the first time. My suggestion is that she has not.

Tags: Hillary Clinton, health care, reform, Frank Luntz, framing, wages, AP, 2008 elections, president, primaries, Democrats (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 96 comments

  •  Tips and flames (13+ / 0-)

    Note that I would like to see universal health care made available and affordable for all, and that people should be given strong, strong incentives to opt into it.

    I do think that there may be a small percentage of people who don't want health care for ethical, philosophical or religious reasons, and that there should be exemptions allowed. And making it compulsory is handing the Rethuglicans a weapon we can't afford to give them.

    "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

    by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:25:56 AM PDT

    •  Most states have compulsory auto insurance (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      J Rae

      and there are criminal penalties for not having it.

      Nobody has spoken of criminal penalties for not having  health insurance.

      "Many people did not care for Pat Buchanan's speech; it probably sounded better in the original German," Molly Ivins, 1992

      by jeffinalabama on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:29:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  driving without insurance (0+ / 0-)

        is a criminal penalty in NC (a state with compulsory auto insurance).

        one can't get a license without insurance.

        if we move towards mandatory IDs while voting...it's just a slippery, screwy slope.

        It's like watching an unknown winning a boxing match vs. the world champ and asking him halfway why he didn't knock his opponent out in the first round.

        by bsmcneil on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:32:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But car ownership is not compulsory (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Marinesquire

        So your analogy is inexact.

        I lived in NYC for many years -- I didn't have auto insurance. Because I didn't want to own a car.

        "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

        by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:39:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly - people are forced to weigh the (0+ / 0-)

          benefit of driving (often necessary for work in rural areas) with the cost of insurance and the consequences of criminal charges if they choose to drive without insurance.  And even in insurance-expensive regions the cost of auto insurance usually pales next to the cost of owning/maintaining a car (especially at $3/gallon).

          Health insurance is different because the need might seem more abstract (if you are healthy), and if money is tight many people may not voluntarily pay the premiums.

          I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC

          by Marinesquire on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:49:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That's a great argument against mandates (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        tmo, Hudson

        Voters were promised lower premiums when auto insurance became compulsory.  

        It didn't happen.

        Also, there are still significant non-participation rates for auto insurance. And there is a big racial gap. In many states compulsory insurance laws has become yet another convenient way to arbitrarily penalize black people.

        I know who Obama's veep will be. You can too!

        by slaney black on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:44:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I really really don't buy this analogy (0+ / 0-)

        No one drives without imposing the risk on others of an accident due to relatively minor instances of driving negligence.  Not having insurance does not merely impact the driver; it impacts the ability of potential accident victims to receive compensation for accidents.

        And I noted yesterday: I live in a state which requires car insurance.  However, those who fully own their cars can limit car insurance purchase to collision coverage: coverage for damage to the person/property of others.  If they so choose, they can dispense with coverage insuring auto theft and damage to their own property.

        The analogy is not an apt one.

  •  Well... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    J Rae, cwaltz

    ...she may not have learned anything, but Obama has certainly learned how to swiftboat like a Republican.

  •  "She'll garnish your wages" will be the ultimate (5+ / 0-)

    Republican talking point if Hillary is our nominee.

    PLEASE vote for Obama.

    Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

    by Jimdotz on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:27:00 AM PDT

  •  What a load (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Radiowalla, J Rae, billybush, cwaltz

    and Obama will "penalize" you by making you "pay back premiums."  And how will he collect those premiums?  Well, if you don't pay a bill from the government it gets taken out of your tax refund.  Welcome to Obama's garnishment.  Except that it comes from a farce of a health care plan.

    Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

    by dhonig on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:30:16 AM PDT

    •  Farce? (0+ / 0-)

      They're basically the same except for mandates which will lose Democrats the election.

      Silly silly.

      Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

      by JayGR on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:32:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Read the link (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Radiowalla

        for why I say farce.  If people can go without insurance and then "pay some back premiums," NOBODY will buy the insurance and the system will collapse.

        Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

        by dhonig on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:41:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  People can go without (0+ / 0-)

          insurance under HRC's plan. Plenty of people never pay taxes or deal with the IRS. Does that mean the system will collapse?

          Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

          by JayGR on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:50:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Did you read the link? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Radiowalla

            because the problem is not taxes.  The problem is Obama's plan, if he described it correctly, permit people to "pay some back premiums" after they get sick, instead of contributing to the pool over time.

            Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

            by dhonig on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:52:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  For the people who do not voluntarily join right. (0+ / 0-)

              The problem with Clinton's plan is that she won't get elected with it.

              The problems with both of their plans is that it's not single-payer UHC.

              Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

              by JayGR on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:05:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  To be clear, the reason I said IRS/Taxes (0+ / 0-)

              is because of Clinton's enforcement mechanism. It will only work with people who come into contact with the government that way. Plenty of people don't.

              Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

              by JayGR on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:31:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  You're missing the point (0+ / 0-)

      The point of my diary is that Hillary stepped right into this framing trap, and it demonstrates that in fact she didn't learn from her previous health care reform debacle.

      She (and her supporters) may believe her plan is best. But can she get her plan passed? Can she get elected when she doesn't know how to sell a plan?

      And thus the point is that I don't believe that experience is an asset if you can't learn from it.

      "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:43:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And Obama laid that trap! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        J Rae

        Now tell me what there is to be proud of in that?

        That he can fight dirty just like the Republicans?

        Because I tell you one thing, if he is using these tactics already they will gobble him up in the general.

        What happens the first time he complains about their dirty tricks?

        You don't think they might trot out these pictures and discuss how he resurected Harry and Louise do you?

        Right now he has the media wind at his back because they want him to be the nominee. In the general he'll be sailing into a full on gale, and he has no experience in an opposition media environment. He has no experience with responding to Republican dirty tricks, although he has demonstrated that he can use them.

  •  No matter the context... (2+ / 0-)

    "garnish your wages" is a piss poor choice of words. There is nothing in this election quite like handing the political bullets to the Republicans that they will use to shoot at her if she is our nominee.

    Roman Catholic by birth---thoroughly confused by life.

    by alasmoses on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:32:00 AM PDT

  •  This was not a term that was used (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tmo, J Rae

    by her or her campaign.  It's a term that others like to use because it is scary.
    Payroll deductions are not garnishments.  Unlike wage garnishments, they are not punitive and they are not the result of court orders.  A payroll deduction is taken for FISA, for example.

    Why shouldn't every American who can afford it participate in a universal health care plan?  Every American at one time or an other is a consumer of health care and those who can afford to pay for insurance should.  Otherwise they are freeloaders who cast the burden on to everyone else.

    I thought this was a blog with progressive values.

    It's the Supreme Court, Stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:35:33 AM PDT

    •  We have turned into redstate (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Radiowalla

      I don't think I have ever seen anything like the "ME, ME, Me" chatter here before.
      "Give me UHC but I don't want to pay a penny for it"
      Yup redstate all the way.

      If I want feel good, happy, happy I will smoke a joint. For President I want a real plan.

      by J Rae on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:41:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The issue for me here... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tmo, MediaFreeze

      ... is not a debate about whether her plan or Obama's plan is the better one.

      The issue is whether Hillary Clinton has learned anything about how to sell a plan to the public and Congress.

      She failed to anticipate this criticism, and has opened herself up to an easy smackdown by Republicans.

      I don't think she learns, and I think Obama has a better chance of both getting elected and reforming health care, because he's just more adept politically.

      "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:45:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  oooopss... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Radiowalla, J Rae

        minus that recommend. I hit the wrong button.

        You make the point that she failed to anticipate the criticism.

        Let me ask you who leveled this bogus criticism?

        Who opened up UHC to an easy smackdown by Republicans?

        Because it seems to me it was another Democrat...

        •  Oh Oh let me guess (0+ / 0-)

          Obama?
          Yup that uniter.
          I just caught his wife Michelle on GMA saying that if Clinton wins they might not support the Democrates.
          YUP a fair weather Democrate for President.

          If I want feel good, happy, happy I will smoke a joint. For President I want a real plan.

          by J Rae on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:59:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Wait a second (0+ / 0-)

          Are you saying that Barack Obama invented the argument that compulsory care and garnishing wages was a downside to universal health care?

          I'm no health care policy wonk, but I believe this debate has been going on for decades now.

          And that's the point: Hillary doesn't learn from her vaunted "experience." She should have been prepared for this.

          "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

          by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:02:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  FICA not FISA (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Radiowalla

      Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)  

      FICA tax as the means to pay for Social Security. .... The FICA tax is imposed under the Federal Insurance Contributions Act

    •  You've made my point against Hillary (0+ / 0-)

      // It's a term that others like to use because it is scary. //

      Exactly: And she should know by now that it's not just what your plan is, but how you sell it.

      Hillary Clinton, with all her "experience" of trying and failing to reform health care, should have anticipated that and figured out in advance how to deflect it.

      Instead she's getting hammered by the largest news-dissemination engine in the nation, the A.P., and Republicans can smell blood.

      The issue for me in this diary is not whether compulsory care is the right choice (I think there must be at minimum religious and philosophical exceptions), but whether Hillary Clinton has learned from her failed previous experience.

      It looks like she hasn't learned.

      "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:54:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So we base our own conclusions about her (0+ / 0-)

        program on smears from her opposition?  

        Breathtaking.  Simply breathtaking.

        It looks like we are the ones who haven't learned.  

        It's the Supreme Court, Stupid!

        by Radiowalla on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:09:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Politics 101. (0+ / 0-)

          Are Clinton supporters so naive that they think they can campaign and govern in a bubble, without having to account for how their messages and plans will be received?

          That's exactly what I mean about Hillary failing to learn from her much-touted "experience."

          "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

          by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:19:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The new slogan? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Radiowalla

    Garnishment is how we pay SS/MC tax. It comes right out of our paycheck.

    Of course SS is useless, right?

    Medicare is evil socialized medicine, right?

    If old people did not save enough to retire then they deserve to be homeless and destitute, right?

    The fact is EVERY person in america gets health care in accidents and acute illnesses now. It is finaced though garnishment of the American people via payroll taxes.
    It is the most expensive, senseless way to provide healthcare ever imagined.

    If I want feel good, happy, happy I will smoke a joint. For President I want a real plan.

    by J Rae on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:36:04 AM PDT

  •  How else are you going to collect the money ... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MediaFreeze, Radiowalla, J Rae

    from those unwilling to enroll? Ask pretty please?

    Mandates mean cumpulsory participation. You can get the money through withholding, or eliminating personal tex exepmtions, or imposing fines.

    As HRC says, there are lots of mechanisms to enforce compliance.

    •  I'm not arguing the issue (0+ / 0-)

      I'm not arguing whose plan is better.

      I'm arguing that Hillary Clinton does a poor job of framing and handling the issues, despite her supposed experience.

      "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:46:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        J Rae

        ...she did not anticipate being ambushed by another Democrat on UHC.

        Perhaps she would have been able to counter such bogus claims effectively if they came from the opposition party and not from a supposed progressive Democrat.

        •  Senator "Ready on day one" not prepared ... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Hudson

          for a basic question on her health care plan that has been 15 years in the making.

          If true, that's a bit disconcerting.

        •  Seriously, how naive could Clinton be? (0+ / 0-)

          Do you seriously think that no one ever raised this objection to compulsory care before Obama, or that this  wouldn't have been used against her?

          The point, again, is: Hillary didn't learn from her first failure.

          "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

          by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:04:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just remember your comments here (0+ / 0-)

            If Obama wins the nomination.

            Getting Universal Healthcare is hard. The powerful forces in this country are against it. When Democrats gleefully join in the politics of division we lose.

            Obama can not win by playing the game this way because in the general the media will not be at his back, they will be at his throat.

            I just ask you to remember how willing you were to join in the campaign against one of the most important progressive causes facing our nation as we watch the general election unfold and your candidate is subjected to these same types of attacks.

            •  Hillary can't win by ignoring the reality ... (0+ / 0-)

              ... of how our political and media system works.

              If she believes her compulsory mandate is the right thing, she should promote it. But there is no excuse for letting herself be blindsided by the most obvious and devastatingly simple criticism the Republicans can use against her plan.

              Again, for the umpteenth time: Hillary hasn't learned from her endlessly-mentioned "experience."

              "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

              by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:07:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Clinton dodged that serious question (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Hudson

    yesterday - watching that was unpleasant.  

    If enrollment is mandatory the only way to force people to enroll is to "garnish wages" (like Social Security and Medicare) or make it a criminal/civil offense to refuse to pay the premiums (are we really going to fine and/or jail people who won't pay?)  

    There is also a difference with mandatory auto insurance - if you can't afford it you have the option of not driving (or taking the risk of being charged if you get caught).

    I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC

    by Marinesquire on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:41:31 AM PDT

  •  Personally I Don't Want .... (0+ / 0-)

    any more deal makers representing me .
    People don't just lay it out though . Look at stuff . Do some research . Find out the best way so you can get behind it .
    http://www.pnhp.org/...
    Single-Payer FAQ | Physicians for a National Health Program
    http://en.wikipedia.org/...
    1993 Clinton health care plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    http://www.census.gov/...
    Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2003

    http://laws.justice.gc.ca/...
    Canada Health Act ( R.S. 1985, c. C-6 )

    At least bookmark them and read later .

  •  Was that Hillary's comment (0+ / 0-)

    or Stephanopoulis'?

    Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

    by dhonig on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:01:50 AM PDT

    •  You're missing the point, again (0+ / 0-)

      And I suspect you're doing it deliberately.

      The point is that Hillary stepped right into this framing mess, and it shows that her "experience" taught her nothing.

      "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:12:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  George Stephanopoulis (0+ / 0-)

      Remind me again whose campaigns and messaging he managed?

      Oh, right. The Clintons.

      "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:20:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Call me a purity troll or other demeaning words, (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Hudson

    but the comments to this diary are yet another reason why I cannot wait for the primary season to be over.  And why I spend so little time here.

    Let's face it: We're miserable to each other.  And we're shrill and we don't listen and we lash out.  This is disgraceful.  It's like we've turned into LGF.

    Visit The Dream Antilles, a lit blog. Another Proud Member of the Mariachi Mama Moratorium On Bickering.

    by davidseth on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:18:14 AM PDT

  •  Are Obama's supporters against UHC? (0+ / 0-)

    What I am hearing is that most of the Obama supporters are againist Universal Health Care.  The only way it is going to work is if everyone pays for it.  The whole garnishment issue is a joke, it is anti UHC talking point, either everyone pays or we don't get it. Where is your "Yes we can" when it comes to UHC?

    •  This diary is not about Plan A vs. Plan B (0+ / 0-)

      I am not arguing in the diary whose plan is better.

      I am arguing that Hillary Clinton's experience doesn't seem to have prepared her for defending and promoting her program.

      If she can't anticipate the obvious criticisms, what good is all this supposed "experience"?

      "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Hudson on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:12:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sure, Republicans will use this... (0+ / 0-)

    ...and if Obama is the candidate they will say that he wants to garnish your handguns.

    Believe me, Obama may look more electable now, but I would be shocked if he won more than 45% in a general election.

Permalink | 96 comments