Daily Kos

Charisma wins elections

Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:19:08 PM PDT

One of the most frustrating things about being a Democrat is watching the party repeat its mistakes:  We keep nominating candidates who can get the vote of every thinking man in the U.S., only to watch them lose to hucksters and hustlers who can hoodwink the voters with a tall tale and a smile.

Al Gore had the best résumé of any Democratic candidate in a generation - eight years in the White House, decades of experience in government - but he came across to voters as stiff and cerebral, and he lost to a dry drunk doing a fake cowboy routine.  John Kerry was a great nominee on paper, with excellent credentials - but he couldn't do a sound bite to save his life, and he lost to a dry drunk doing a fake John Wayne routine. Dukakis and Mondale also wore the "thinking man's" cap, for all the good it did them; on paper the Democrats should have held the White House from 1908 to the present, if the "better" candidate always won... but here we are instead.

In thirty years only Bill Clinton has managed to square the circle, winning support from people who voted with their hearts as well as their heads:  Bill Clinton was a policy wonk of the first order, but he also had charisma - he came across on television as a warm, caring, empathetic person.  He did well against Bob Dole and the elder George Bush, both of whom appeared dry and dispassionate by comparison; Dole and Bush were both competent candidates with good résumés, but failed to spark with voters.

This year we have the most exciting Democratic primary in my lifetime, and the GOP is deciding which lamb gets slaughtered:  I sincerely believe we started the primary season with half a dozen candidates who could win in November, and the GOP started with none.  I think that whoever we nominate will win the election, and what's really at stake right now is about coat-tails, filibuster-proof majorities, and winning again in 2012; I think that in favorable conditions a "head" candidate can win an election - the elder Bush did it in '88 - but a "heart" candidate can transform the political landscape.

And so we come to Senator Obama and Senator Clinton.  Hillary Clinton has the stronger résumé of the two; Obama fans might argue whether proximity counts as experience, but Sen. Clinton has undeniably been in the public eye for longer and has weathered some of the GOP's roughest attacks on any national figure. She's been active in the health care debate for decades, has demonstrated she can work with the GOP to get legislation passed, and is running on her credentials:  She'll be ready on day one, says her campaign.

...but she does not have the charisma that her husband famously does.

For many voters, Hillary's public image is already locked in and unflattering:  Cold and calculating, ruthless in her ambition, showing emotion only on cue and doing whatever is necessary to win the election.  Some perceive that last part as an asset:  If you think Kerry lost because he didn't go for the jugular, and you think the GOP's swift-boat hyenas are going to eat Obama alive, then Hillary is a candidate who'll give as good as she gets.  But there's a real risk that Hillary tops out at 53%-55% of the electorate and never goes higher:  She gets enough to win in '08, and we improve our Senate majority somewhat, but it goes downhill from there and the GOP makes gains in '10 and '12.

And then there's Obama.  I think, at the margin, some of Hillary's fans actually see Obama as one of the hucksters:  He's smiling and selling happy juice, people are drinking it up, and this absolutely infuriates certain partisans who don't understand how the GOP puts people like Dubya and Reagan into office.  These are the scream-and-shake Democrats, the ones constantly fighting the urge to track down people who voted for Dubya in '04 and shake them by the shoulders until they can account for themselves - they don't understand why anyone would "fall for" Obama's rhetoric, they don't understand how their fellow Americans were fooled by Dubya's patter, and they don't understand how Obama could possibly be a stronger candidate in the general election than the more "qualified" Hillary Clinton.

But I tend to think Obama is the stronger candidate, and his charisma is the reason.  Charisma alone isn't a good reason to vote for a candidate - I understand Mike Huckabee is a charming fellow once you get past the theocracy - but it's a powerful asset for a candidate to have.  And Obama has substance to back it up, from his superior judgement on Iraq to his non-proliferation work to his continued leadership on ethics reform.  I don't have any major complaints regarding either candidate's domestic policies, really, and I can't get worked up about health care plan differences (the candidate who isn't President next year will still be in the Senate, right?), so for me it comes down to preferring Obama's foreign policy and believing Obama has an easier path to a second term.

I think I'm supposed to put a poll here now.

Poll

What's the stronger ticket?

8%7 votes
8%7 votes
76%62 votes
2%2 votes
3%3 votes

| 81 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: 2008 elections, primaries, Democrats, President, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 54 comments

  •  Clinton/McCain 2008 (wars and experience) (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RubyGal
  •  Hillary will give us more war (0+ / 0-)

    she is surrounded by warmongers..she voted for the war resolution..she knew what she was voting for..she has supported Bush and her constituents are war machine making companies..No Thanks..

    OBAMA 2008

    •  she's not a warmonger (8+ / 0-)

      she's a war-enabler. She only voted for the war resolution so that she wouldn't look silly after it was all over in 6 weeks after a stunning U.S. victory.

      For all her political savy, on of the things I hold against her the most is not having the savy to see that Iraq was going to be a boiling swamp of disaster. She should have seen it coming better, cuz I did.

      All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

      by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:28:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She voted for an illegal war... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        RickD, andydoubtless

        It was unlawful for Bush to engage in a preemptive attack on a soveriegn nation that had no defense...plain and simple..and she supported it no matter what she may have thought the duration of the war would be..it was an unlawful military engagement..there are international laws that prohibit wanton aggression by the militarily advanced countries upon the defenseless little nations..problem for Iraq was the fact that they had oil...

        She knew what she was doing and has never apologized for it because she supported it...

      •  Everyone did..we orgainzed 50,000 (0+ / 0-)

        marchers in Seattle and our protests have been ignored..the women from New Jersey who asked for 9/11 investigations have never been given answers to some of the most basic questions..that silence is like Hillary's silence..

        •  well, to me a warmonger (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JayBat, andydoubtless

          initiates wars. Someone who is more passive in their support doesn't get the "monger" label.

          This means, I don't think she'd continue the bush doctrine foreign policy if she won. But it also means I won't vote for her in the primaries.

          All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

          by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:35:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  She wanted to bomb the spit out of Belgrade (0+ / 0-)

            during Clinton I.

            I know who Obama's veep will be. You can too!

            by slaney black on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:38:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  so did i (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              JayBat

              NATO, i.e. 19 countries all agreed that they needed to solve this problem militarily, as negotiations with Milosovic were impossible. And there was no conquest about this, it was to stop a genocide. So I can't accept this as warmongering.

              All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

              by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:45:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I think she would continue the PNAC objectives (0+ / 0-)

            Look at her advisers..she has Sandy Berger and Madeleinn Albright there who were happy to drop bombs on humans...

            These people are crazy...

            •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              SeanF

              I truely do not believe anyone who is a thinking person still believes in the PNAC agenda.

              Time will Tell all the Truth VT, Virtual Truth

              by VirtualTruth on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:46:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  then i guess we are very different (0+ / 0-)

              cuz if you think PNAC and Albright are the same thing, we live on different planets.

              But I get why you think Hillary is a warmonger now!
              ;)

              All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

              by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:47:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Albright knew that Iraqi children were starving (0+ / 0-)

                to death during the 1990's when we imposed sanctions on that defensless country..Hussein was no threat..she says he was contained..well they contained him by keeping his country an open prison..people have been so beaten there.

                PNAC came about because Bush 41 would not invade Iraq knowing it would be a quagmire..Cheney said so at the time..

                PNAC is about empire..everything that comes out of Albrights mouth is about American empire..

                •  i think you are nuts (0+ / 0-)

                  in a way. If you want to use Pax Americanus as code language for empire, then I'd say that the Albrights are more about benevolent empire, the PNACs are about domination and forcing people to be like us, i.e. evil empire. Are either sustainable? I don't think so; we need something truly different. But if you can't tell the HUGE distinctions between those two, then I take your judgement less seriously.

                  And btw, who do you support this cycle? Do you really think Obama (whom I support) will be that much different foreign policy wise? I don't think anyone running is suggesting we transfer American empire power to an international governance scheme that has glocal input. That's what I'd do, but I'm not expecting any candidate to pull that off quite yet.

                  All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                  by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:04:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  She was not about benevolent empire.. (0+ / 0-)

                    She is not about benevolent empire..she is about empire and the power and might of the USA...That is Neocon to me..that is what PNAC is all about..

                    •  you need to get you vocabulary sorted (0+ / 0-)

                      i can't discuss these things with you when you decide what labels and words mean "to you" willy nilly.

                      All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                      by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 04:13:03 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Obviously you are a hostile idiot (0+ / 0-)

                        I see so many people like you here.  It gets so tiresome.  

                        •  i was trying to be nice actually (0+ / 0-)

                          but you tire me too, so we're even.

                          All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                          by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 04:43:47 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Madeleine Albright is a signatory to PNAC (0+ / 0-)

                            but then again .. so is Joe Biden..very curious.. and look at the date..my my..

                            http://www.newamericancentury.org/...

                            •  nice catch (0+ / 0-)

                              actually, it's a letter, not an indication of membership. but nice catch nonetheless.

                              All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                              by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:28:03 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  Joe Biden is on this also... (0+ / 0-)

                                which is curious..and the date is curious also..but what is really interesting is that a person with the last name of Bao Lord is a signatory to one other of these PNAC documents and she is in the FEC filings for Hillary's campaign fundraising..very curious..

                                •  well what's hard to tell (0+ / 0-)

                                  is what implication do these letters have? Why would anyone on the left want to be on any of these letters? I mean, the content of the letter was fine, I agree with it. But the letterhead you'd think would give one pause...

                                  That being said, are you a fan of Zbigneiw Brzinzksky? (spelling is wrong) He's one of Obama's top foreign policy advisors and is a longstanding center left hawk. I happen to love him, but given some of his stances, wonder if you'd consider him a PNAC lover too??

                                  All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                                  by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:35:58 PM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                                  •  Well...I think he has written some unfortunate (0+ / 0-)

                                    things..but he was also stating very clearly in the Carter administration that we had to move full speed ahead on alternative fuels because he correctly predicted the mess we are in now.  Carter wanted to have this country work on energy with great vigor.  Now we are behind the rest of the world when we could have been at the forefront of alternatives.

                                    Reagan came in and the PNAC people saw this as the opportunity to push their agenda way back then..The Council for National Policy was formed by Rich DeVos..Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson ushered in the Evangelical political power needed to give the right wing election wins..and George Herbert Walker Bush started on his ambitious project to create black ops money by trafficking in drugs and weapons..that was what BCCI was about.

                                    I don't know how Barack will be..but I surely do not want Hillary.  It is the cold bloodedness of these people that is shocking..

  •  The diary does not make the Yoo Ess of Ey look... (0+ / 0-)

    good.

    But it is certainly true.

    The thing is, the media has been dumbing down us Americans for decades now, and so we see the results.

    The media with its soundbite explanation of candidates policies, with its talk (really: HATE) radio, with its treating political coverage the same like the superbowl coverage - all of it has an effect.

    So yes, us Americans are dumb - but apart from those who read the news on the internet, and have the time and inclination to do so, get their news and political coverage from the teevee...

    Scare prospect indeed, and one that explains this diary.

  •  Tip Jar? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    andydoubtless

    I have been saying this since Bush absconded with the White House in 2000. We need someone who can use his charisma to unite our party under one banner. I am not convinced that Obama will be the perfect candidate to do this, but I have severe reservations about Hillary's ability to pull in the independents, whom we need to win.

    The cerebral types like to pooh-pooh charisma and claim that experience trumps it. Well, elections are popularity contests, and like it or not you can't win one without charisma.

    But don't forget that most men without property would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich, than face the reality of being poor. (1776)

    by banjolele on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:25:55 PM PDT

  •  Charisma is fickle. Hillary is actually quite (0+ / 0-)

    likable;unlike Kerry and Dukakis, who came across and cold and aloof, she is very warm and personable. The more people see her, the more they like her.
    I don't know what charisma is, but if it's what it takes to win elections and votes, then objectively speaking, Clinton seems to have more of it than Obama, you'll have to agree.

    •  you underestimate what an (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      andydoubtless

      achievement it has been stopping the hillary machine in its tracks. The hillary machine isn't powered by charisma. Obama's movement is. So the better comparison is Charisma vs. The Machine.

      That all being said, I like Hillary quite a bit and am fascinated watching her in this fight.

      All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

      by SeanF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:31:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Kerry is warm and personable, too. (0+ / 0-)

      Ask anyone who was at his rallies in 2004.

      But you're right; perception matters. Through the filter of the media, he did come across to much of the nation as cold and aloof. In the election, that turned out to be what counted.

      Charisma isn't about winning votes... or, not just about that, though it does that, too. It's not about being likable, or warm and personable.

      It's about cutting through media filters like a hot knife through butter.

      It's about transforming perceived reality.

      Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

      by Canadian Reader on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:37:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obviously (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      RubyGal

      That's why -- despite everyone knowing her - she can't get past 50%

      OBVIOUSLY... everyone is wrong - it's Clinton not Obama - that grows on you.

      Good luck with that.

      5 million in loaned cash must only buy used thematics, huh?

      I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

      by zonk on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 04:12:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

    Comparisons to Mao, Stalin, Mussolini, and maybe even Hitler in 5, 4, 3...

  •  Charm his way to the WH - (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sexton, Greasy Grant

    Ronald Reagan.  

    May be it's BO's turn.  I surely hope his substance commensurates with his style.

    My Edwards 2008 yard sign will stay up for a long time.

    by Andy86 on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:31:21 PM PDT

    •  Bill gave us Monica-fatigue, Bush gave us.. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SeanF, andydoubtless

      stupid-fatigue.

      My advice to Bush would be:
      It is your stupidity, stupid.

      Obama is fresh, charismatic, and brings citizens, young and old, to tears.  That is what I want from a leader - inspiration.  I don't think HC and BO are all that different on policy, but BO can reshape our national conversation in a big way.  I look forward to that.

      Curiosity brings truth to power, Incuriosity brings the villiage idiot to power.

      by sexton on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:35:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Calling Bush (0+ / 0-)

        stupid is an oversimplification.  But I don't want to defend him.

        Obama is fresh, charismatic

        Perception is reality.  Consumers are victims of commercial marketing and citizens political marketing.

        May the Dem candidate who wins the primary wins the general.  Then we'll be able to "eat the pudding".

        My Edwards 2008 yard sign will stay up for a long time.

        by Andy86 on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 04:30:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hate to tell you this (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SeanF, andydoubtless

    but human beings always make decisions based on their emotions. Even us.

    "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

    by denise b on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:37:08 PM PDT

  •  Charisma, Hope but no experience and thick skin (0+ / 0-)

    I really like what you said, but it would be nice to have another candidate with the complete package, like Bill Clinton.

    Obama saying he was against the war rings hollow based on his actions in Congress. He has voted along the same lines as Hillary, so where is his leadership? Where is the difference? Where are the actions to end the war, NOW?

    I understand That Hillary would win the general election, but hurt the party by motivating the Republicans.

    My feeling is this, who is the best candidate to beat the Republican nominee, whoever that may be.

    Could Obama beat McCain?

    Time will Tell all the Truth VT, Virtual Truth

    by VirtualTruth on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:41:56 PM PDT

    •  Yes. Obama beats McCain, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      VirtualTruth

      precisely because the public's dissatisfaction with the war is so deep and broad, and whereas McCain can play off of Hillary's shifting positions to undermine her criticism ("you were for it before you were against it"), Obama can make the case that the war was wrong from the beginning and not bring his own prior judgment into question.

      You and I might not like that the Democrats of the U.S. Congress have largely dithered on the question of withdrawal these past thirteen months, but hesitation to withdraw the troops because of the hostility of the executive branch is simply not of the same order of mistake of judgment as the decision to commit the troops in the first place. I think the American people will realize that.

      Also, Obama is much more clearly the candidate committed to pulling U.S. troops out. His deadline for withdrawal--sixteen months after his inauguration--distinguishes him from Clinton and would be an effective clarion call in a general election, especially against a nominee prepared for us to fight a hundred years.

  •  Obama/Clinton? Just say no! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    andydoubtless

    Hillary will have negative coat-tails. Obama is indeed the most exciting, charismatic Democratic presidential candidate since JFK. But add Hillary to the ticket as vice president, and the Clinton-haters come out of the woodwork to vote against her. It will hurt every down-ticket race as well.

    •  You get the same benefits with McCaskill, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader

      plus the fact that McCaskill would probably bring Missouri with her, plus the fact that she's a personable candidate in precisely the way Hillary is not, plus the fact that McCaskill's number-crunching budget skills actually have immense practical value in an administration (I saw her once in a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing broadcast on C-SPAN and was just spellbound by her command of detail).

      And she just seems wonderful. A very sunny, positive, effusive personality.

      I really can picture the two of them at the lectern in Denver, smiling while the balloons drop.

      (Alternately, I think Jim Webb would make a good running mate too).

  •  Unfortunately, thats true. (0+ / 0-)

    "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

    by Niniane on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:23:01 PM PDT

  •  So spurn me, I voted for Hillary. (0+ / 0-)

    Obama doesn't move me at all. Never has. Just doesn't.
    Let me tell you about charisma:

    When Bill Clinton ran for Prez in 92 I had no idea who he was but he was brilliant in defining problems and expressing solutions in a v. simple fashion. Everybody  could understand it. Often only in two and three sentences. I recentely talked to someone in Europe who brought exactly that subject up ...

    Bill Clinton really did inspire when he talked about the issues ... he had an answer for anything because he had thought it thru without hemming and hawing like Obama does during the debates. PLUS Bill Clinton always felt at ease in his skin." That speaks confidence. That is real charisma.

    Barack Obama? I don't see it. Just don't. And what Foreign policy? I can't point to anything he has ever done while in the Senate. Rien.

    And now he decided to even run a negative campaign against the most successful Dem Prez we have had for the longest time .... since FDR? ... and trying to kill Universal Health in the process with his Harry And Louise ads. Just to name that huge problem he obviously doesn't care about.

    But If you care about Health Insurance for All ... its Hillary Clinton who knows what she is talking about. Who can be trusted to be tough enough to get it done.

    Hillary Clinton is being defined by the Obama love channel (NBC) and the rest of the Clinton-hating MSM plus a series of Clinton-hating bloggers who set themselves up long ago to bring her down by co-opting all the rightwing talking points.

    To let that happen without defending her ... THAT IS A DISGRACE FOR ANY SELF-RESPECTING DEM.

    Sadly, Obama became the media's ally. They loved him. He loves them. The bond:  Hillary Clinton hatin. Negativity.

    Yes depite all that, Hillary Clinton has remained strong on Super Tuesday and won.

    Charisma and charm? You better believe she got that.  Comes across everytime she speaks about the issues and everything else. Longtime voters who can remember the Clinton admin, well, people in their 30s at least, know that. No need for spin there.

    Whose speech last night brimmed with charm, unity, and class? Hillary Clinton's all the way.

    Thanks goodness
    for James Wolcott. He has not disappointed me yet and I think exactly like him (see his blog, it's as good a read as always):

    "So spurn me, I vote for Hillary."

  •  American voters choose these qualities: (0+ / 0-)

    the candidate they perceive to have the most energy and trustworthiness.

    Reference: Psychologist Dr. Philip Zimbardo

    Americans, expecially American men, dislike intellectuals/eggheads.

    Listen online to interview with author of new book:

    Neglected Voters: White Men

    In the 1960s, the Republican party won a key demographic: white male voters. Now David Paul Kuhn of The Politico says that the Democratic party is luring many of those voters back. His new book is The Neglected Voter: White Men and the Democratic Dilemma.

    http://www.wnyc.org/...

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:47:21 PM PDT

  •  Reporters favor Obama, says ABC's (0+ / 0-)

    Mark Halperin. They even want Obama to attack HRC. She's old news; Obama is new news.

    To reporters...never mind the issues or what's best for the country...or even 'reporting'........Reporters want novelty.

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:49:30 PM PDT

Permalink | 54 comments