Daily Kos

Is Barack Obama right about Bill Clinton's presidency?

Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:04:10 PM PDT

First, I want to apologize for calling Iceberg Slim a liar here.  I do believe that she is wrong when she says the Obama team didn't play the race card, but I should have given her the benefit of the doubt.  Emotions run high during the primary season and one day soon we will have to work together.  I also want to apologize for a diary that was perceived as an attack on Michelle Obama. (link)

I did not intend it as an attack, but I can understand how it could have been perceived as such.  I should have worded it better.  My main point was that the media has not treated the Obamas with the same scrutiny as it has the Clintons.  The two pieces that people took the most exception with raised questions that I felt sure would be raised if Obama becomes the nominee and for which I felt the Obama supporters could find good answers.  My only excuse for the poor wording is that I stayed up almost all night researching that piece.  So I was really tired.  And after I posted the diary I had to go teach a full day of classes.  

I found it interesting to see that others agree with me that the Obama campaign has been treated with kid gloves by MSNBC in particular, so much so that the question was raised as to whether it raised expectations too high.  (link)

1994 Retirements

I think one has to have selective memory to blame President Clinton for all the Democratic ills of the 1990s.  In response to the losses mentioned by the Obama campaign (link), there are several other possibilities to consider.  First, Democrats had a lot of retirements in 1994.  From the Stanford Review (link):

The cornerstone of Republican wins in 1994 was taking a decisive majority of seats that were left open by retiring Democratic incumbents, many of whom were embattled in the bank scandals.

Congressional Scandals

Second, there were the abovementioned scandals related to Congress that had nothing to do with President Clinton.  The House Banking Scandal  and the Congressional Post Office Scandal are two main examples.

It really is the economy stupid.

Third, one cannot underestimate the effects of the economy in an election year.  Ruy Teixeira gathered new evidence to show that instead of an ideological shift in the 1994 electorate, it was more of a response to the poor performance of the economy. (link)

President Clinton's approval ratings over his two terms reinforce Ruy's thesis.  In 1994, President Clinton's approval ratings were indeed low.  They were at the lowest of his terms in office.  By 1996 his approval ratings had rebounded in almost direct proportion to improvement in the economy.  Before 1996 his average was 51%.  After the economy kicked into gear in 1996, his average was 61%. (link)

Bill had record high approval ratings

Fourth, President Clinton's approval ratings, which seemed to follow the strength of the economy, were at 65% at the end of his second term.  In fact, if you want to compare him with Reagan, they both had a career average of 57%.  Bill's 65% approval rating at the end was the highest among recent presidents. Reagan ended with 64%, even after that landslide win in 1988, and JFK had 63% at his death. (link)  This seems to contradict the idea that he was to blame for the party faltering. Even when one factors in the Lewinsky mess, he still had high approval ratings.  And since he had higher approval ratings he has at least circumstantial evidence to show that he affected the trajectory of the nation as much as Reagan, whom Obama gave the trajectory changer crown to.

Contract with America over-hyped

Fifth, though Barack Obama is on the record saying that Republicans were winning the war of ideas, their biggest idea at the time, the Contract with America, was introduced so late in the 1994 election season that it seems likely it really had little effect at all. (link)As mentioned above, there is a lot of evidence to show that the economy was much more of a factor than those vaunted "Republican ideas."

Al Gore won.

Sixth, Barack is actually wrong about Al Gore losing the 2000 election. Gore won the popular vote with the most votes any Democrat had ever gotten up to that point.  And he actually won FL by a narrow margin.  If the 2000 election had not been stolen from Gore, no one would even be talking about Bill trashing the Dem brand.  It is amazing how some of the same knowledgable Democratic activists readily point out that Gore actually won and still yet blame Bill Clinton for losing the 2000 election.  Personally, I think the biggest trajectory changers in the US are those five Republicans on the Supreme Court who gave Florida, which Gore also won, to George W. Bush. (link)

Obamaism = Clintonism.

Finally, I think it is odd that Obama claims to be the real change agent and to claim that the Clintons are "the tired politics of the past" when, in actual practice his methods are demonstrably similar to Bill's.  I tried to subtly hint at that here.  Matt Compton stated it more clearly here:

For many bloggers, the problem with Obama was—and is--that he’s been playing into a much-derided "triangulation" meme in appealing to voters without traditional Democratic credentials. As Ezra Klein said last Tuesday, Obama was using "old politics of centrist caution and status quo bias." Markos Moulitsas walked back from his announced intention to vote for Obama, saying "you have to have your head stuck deep in the sand to deny that Obama is trying to close the deal by running to the Right of his opponents. And call me crazy, but that's not a trait I generally appreciate in Democrats, no matter how much it might set the punditocracy's hearts a flutter." Matt Yglesias tempered his former enthusiasm for the candidate as well, writing "while there's a lot I like about Barack Obama, if he wins Iowa it won't have been by running hard on the things I like best about him."

The great irony here is that, ostensibly, the thing that gives so many bloggers pause about Barack Obama is the very thing that they hate about Bill Clinton's presidency. In fact, the strategy of using "centrist caution" to reach out to swing voters and Independents has been called Clintonism for a long time now.

Tags: Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 109 comments

  •  putting Bill down ain't gonna get u votes (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Magenta, standingup, Osiris

    Whether he is right or wrong putting Bill down will definitely not help him get votes.  You don't hear repubs dissing Ronnie.

  •  Can't find what Obama is supposed to have said (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    vengeance for mr sympathy

    in your diary, so that makes it tough to tell whether he was right or wrong.

    Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

    by Inland on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:08:51 PM PDT

    •  oops Meant to put in a link (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      zbctj52, evercompromised

      give me a sec

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:14:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm cutting and pasting from another (5+ / 0-)

      diary. It says it was on TPM yesterday but provided no links.

      In what may be Obama's most direct and aggressive criticism of Bill Clinton's presidency yet, the Obama campaign dropped a new mailer just before Super Tuesday that blasts "the Clintons" for wreaking massive losses on the Democratic party throughout the 1990s.

      "8 years of the Clintons, major losses for Democrats across the nation," reads the mailer, which goes on to list the post-1992 losses suffered by Dems among governors, Senators and members of the House of Representatives. The mailer was forwarded to us by a political operative who told us it was sent to Alaska, though it was probably sent elsewhere, too.

      Not cool as far as I am concerned. I voted for Obama because I like his positive message. I still do but that sucks.

      •  Oh, that. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        evercompromised, allie123, notohrc

        That's merely true.  

        Moreover, it seems that downticket officials from purplish areas don't want HRC on the top of the ticket.

        It's right to bring it up.

        Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

        by Inland on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:24:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Except that it was more a result (4+ / 0-)

          of a GOP bent on destroying Clinton and the D's with a lot of help from a complicit media.

          •  I don't even understand that. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            notohrc

            That's just excuses, and HRC is running as if she were an important part of a successful presidency that we should repeat.

            I think it's a little silly, seeing as how the successes that we had were parrying the republican advances (temporarily) were due to the once in a lifetime talents of Bill Clinton.  Well, HRC ain't no Bill.  Bill isn't Bill anymore.  We can't recreate that with the Clintons.  You know who the heir is to Bill's talents and his themes is, right?    

            Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

            by Inland on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:31:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Excuses?" (3+ / 0-)

              This is one opf my major problems with so many Obama supporters here. They actually defend the attempted bloodless coup because it helps Obama and hurts Clinton.

              And mark my words. They will be screaming bloody murder when the GOP does it to him and the media helps.

              •  Um. What? (0+ / 0-)

                We were talking about how the Clintons lost congress.  Of course we SHOULD and DID scream bloody murder then.  I remember a fuck of a lot of energy going to defending the clintons, and don't regret it, and don't think you should hold back now.

                But the fact is, they still lost.  Losing is BAD.  

                Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

                by Inland on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:25:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The Democrats in Congress (0+ / 0-)

                  stunk up the place and lots of other things you wilfully ignore.  Instead of addressing what is actually in the diary you just come in and restate what you already said, without giving a shred of documentation to back up what you say.  I have documented everything.  Unless you can refute my points with proof I am wrong, you aren't accomplishing anything.

                  The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                  by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:51:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Obama attacked Bill, (0+ / 0-)

              Other than that, I would prefer to talk about what Obama is going to do in the future, because I am sure, and I gave evidence at the end of this piece, that it looks a lot like what Bill would do.

              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

              by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:46:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  And where have you (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          badger, evercompromised

          disputed anything I said?  All you have done is make an unsubstantiated statement.  I happen to know some of those downticket candidates that will vote for Hillary.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:26:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I think Bill Clinton put himself in play (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        notohrc

        when he chose the role of attack dog over elder statesman.  However, Obama's criticism of Bill Clinton's presidency is correct, he wasn't a tranformational President (and I voted for the guy twice).  As proof of that, 1 year after W had been in office he had wiped out any evidence  of the Clinton years.

        "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

        by lordcopper on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:47:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But that ignores the fact (0+ / 0-)

          As proof of that, 1 year after W had been in office he had wiped out any evidence  of the Clinton years.

          that BushII is a singularity in the Presidency. Someone who never gave a fuck what happened before, what will happen after and what is best for the country.

          Will Obama be a "transformational" President? I hope so but people keep forgetting just how vile the new Republican party actually is. There is just as good a chance, if not better, that the GOP will do to him what they did to Clinton.

          And before you claim that Clinton did it to himself think about it. It took six years of bullshit investigation after bullshit investigation after... to get him on a fucking blowjob.

          •  I will stipulate the following: (0+ / 0-)

            that BushII is a singularity in the Presidency. Someone who never gave a fuck what happened before, what will happen after and what is best for the country.

            And I'll throw in that he's an ass as well.

            By the way, I wasn't referring to his sexual proclivities.  I was referring to his willingness to co-opt his opponents message to throw the dogs off (welfare reform, "the era of big government is over", etc...). While he is considered the consumate politician, he didn't look so great from 1992-1994 when we had the "co-presidency".  Like I said, I voted for the guy twice, but I honestly couldn't tell you what he stood for.  

            "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

            by lordcopper on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:55:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  OK. I will spell it out for you. (0+ / 0-)

          Gore actually won.  The fact that Bush got to erase Bill's progress doesn't mean Bill didn't change things during his presidency.  The real trajectory changers here are the five SC Justices who gave W that opportunity.  Gore won and would have continued the Clinton policies.  The Supreme Court stole that opportunity from him.  And as I documented in the link there in the Gore section of the diary, the five Republicans voted party over principle.  

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:20:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The guy who is sworn in on Jan 20th (0+ / 0-)

            is the guy who won the election.  My question is how did it ever get close enough to steal.  

            The American electorate looked at two candidates, one offering a continuation of the policies that had been successful, and the other offering to take the country back down the road of supply side economics, and the country chose the latter.  

            "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

            by lordcopper on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:47:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Semantics. (0+ / 0-)

              Gore won both the popular vote and would have won the Electoral College but for the Shameless five.  But still, he won the popular vote, including FL.  and that goes against the point Barack is trying to make.

              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

              by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:24:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  thanks for catching that (0+ / 0-)

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:18:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Do you think (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    arielle, mightymouse

    Bush and his policies are responsible for House Republicans losing their majority in 2006?  Have we not tied each and every Congressional Republican to Bush during an election (it's quite easy to do, by the way)?

    Bill Clinton was not the only cause of our Congressional and gubernatorial losses during his presidency, but he played his part.  And I believe Obama's quote only says how there were losses at all levels of the government during the Clinton years.

    You can read whatever you want into that quote, but we have plenty of real battles to fight without imagining phantom ones.  Also, I don't see how saying this about a Clinton presidency necessarily translates back to Hillary Clinton, unless the Clinton campaign wants to admit she had more to do in the White House governing process than we think.

    Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

    by BasharH on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:15:36 PM PDT

    •  link to Obama quote (0+ / 0-)

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:19:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obama brought this up (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      theplaintruth

      So it needs to be addressed

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:27:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Those losses were real (0+ / 0-)

        The mailer doesn't lie about that.  This seems on-par with Clinton's experience line of attack on Obama.  What are you looking for?  An apology out of the Obama campaign?

        We're all wired from Tsunami Tuesday and now, the day after, we're all just looking for stories that aren't really there.  Minus seven senators... yikes.  That's bad.

        By the way, do you blame Bush for Republican Congressional losses in 2006?  I didn't see an answer to that question.

        Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come -- Victor Hugo

        by BasharH on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:58:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  OK let me spell it out for you. (0+ / 0-)

          The losses were real.  The implication that they were Bill's fault ignores a lot of contradictory facts along the way.  The clear intent of Obama, to blame the losses on Bill and Hillary, falls short for that reason.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:16:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  NAFTA was a huge part. (7+ / 0-)

    Dan Glickman, Maria Cantwell, Buddy Darden, Karan English, Tom Foley, Peter Hoagland, Jay Inslee, Don Johnson, Mike Kopetski, Mike Kreidler, David Mann, Tim Penny, David Price, Dan Rostenkowski, Roy Rowland, Bill Sarpalius, Karen Shepherd, Neal Smith, Mike Synar and Tim Valentine (20 incumbents, nearly all of the losing ones) voted for it thanks largely to Clinton's pushing it.

    •  NAFTA has had ill effects. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      badger

      But those job losses that might be blamed on it didn't show up until after W took office.  That doesn't support the thesis that losses in the 90s were Bill's fault.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:42:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You really think (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mikepridmore

      Inslee lost due to NAFTA? Or Foley? Or Rostenkowski?

      Can't say about most of the others, but that sounds like a pretty amazing claim to me. Rostenkowski would have been thrilled if NAFTA was his only problem. Mexico was (prior to about 5 years ago) a huge market for WA State apples and wheat (Inslee and Foley respectively).

      I have my fears, but they do not have me - Peter Gabriel

      by badger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:08:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It is certainly true that scandals dogged Dems (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Progressive Witness

    This is the reason why it was so easy for Republicans to claim top be the party of morality.  Between the banking scandal, the post office scandal, the Congressional page scandal, Gary Hart's monkey business,... the Dems were seen as filthy and that didn't help.

    BUT...

    after they got their heads handed to them over gays in the military and healthcare, there was a turn to triangulation in which GOP rhetoric was adopted and the Clintocrats sought to kiss the backsides of the industries that were greasing the wheels of the Republicans in effort to secure cash and support.  This led to HORRIBLE bills like the telecom act.

    The picture of the electorate they held was the 1/3 dems they couldn't lose, 1/3 Republicans they couldn't win, and 1/3 that mattered and those people were cynical and always held "they're both wrong."  To court those folks, they intellectually and morally bankrupted the party.  They made sure that the Dems stood for nothing that wasn't Republican light because if there was a difference between the party, they were afraid they'd lose.  Thus we got the end of the era of big gov't rhetoric and the Defense of Marriage Act.  And as a result we lost our party, and our party lost its spine and everything else that comes from elections.

    Bill Clinton did sell out the party for over a decade in order to gain a second term.

    The playground is open -- Philosophers' Playground: One part sandbox, one part soapbox

    by SteveG on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:18:15 PM PDT

  •  Let's not burn down our own house (4+ / 0-)

    The real battle is in GE.  

    McCain already start staying we will unite the party.  And GOP will have lots of time to observe how our two candidate compete.  Best not to give them extra help to win GE.

    She's a diamond, strong, bright, and precious.

    by JoeySky18 on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:18:16 PM PDT

  •  And he actually won FL by a narrow margin. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    theran

    The only official counts/recounts say no.

    The unofficial recount says it could have happened but not if the Florida Supreme Court decision had been left to stand.

    If the U.S. had not stopped the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court.

    There are some scenarios under which the post-election recount indicates that Gore wins, but they were not in progress when the whistle blew.  Of course, since the margin is so close who knows what would have happened if the whole thing had been re-recounted for another million dollars.  There is a certain error percentage in every process.

    •  dunno who that is (0+ / 0-)

      But they are wrong.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:24:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's an opinion piece (0+ / 0-)

        He references the New York times -- which I gave you a link to.  The problem is that there are a variety of possibilities depending on which scenarios you play out.

        If you cherry pick your option, you can get the result you want.  According to the NY Times analysis I linked to, the one that was in place before the U.S. Supreme court intervened would have confirmed Bush as the winner.

        The problem is that it was really close and minor variations in how you count and what you count matter.

        The only count that is really official is the one produced at election time, recounted via the legislated automatic recount and verified.  It may be flawed, as all counts are, but it is the only  legal result.

        •  It is a (0+ / 0-)

          summary of what was being said with specific references.  Your link had one chart from the NYt with no explanation.  My piece has details and references to where it got the details.

          Full Review Favors Gore," the Washington Post said in a box on page 10, showing that under all standards applied to the ballots, Gore came out on top. The New York Times' graphic revealed the same outcome.

          Earlier, less comprehensive ballot studies by the Miami Herald and USA Today had found that Bush and Gore split the four categories of disputed ballots depending on what standard was applied to assessing the ballots – punched-through chads, hanging chads, etc. Bush won under two standards and Gore under two standards.

          The new, fuller study found that Gore won regardless of which standard was applied and even when varying county judgments were factored in. Counting fully punched chads and limited marks on optical ballots, Gore won by 115 votes. With any dimple or optical mark, Gore won by 107 votes. With one corner of a chad detached or any optical mark, Gore won by 60 votes. Applying the standards set by each county, Gore won by 171 votes.

          This core finding of Gore’s Florida victory in the unofficial ballot recount might surprise many readers who skimmed only the headlines and the top paragraphs of the articles. The headlines and leads highlighted hypothetical, partial recounts that supposedly favored Bush.

          Buried deeper in the stories or referenced in subheads was the fact that the new recount determined that Gore was the winner statewide, even ignoring the "butterfly ballot" and other irregularities that cost him thousands of ballots.

          The Consortium study is the one that was being discussed here:

          A consortium of media organizations, including The Washington Post, will next month begin an examination of all votes statewide that did not register when passed through an automatic counting machine. A similar, separate count by the Miami Herald is underway.

          Unlike those efforts, which will be based on a hand examination of the physical ballots, The Post analysis of the eight counties was based on an examination of the computer record made for each ballot when it passed through the automatic counting machines. These mechanical readers shine light through each card to detect which holes have been punched out.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 08:05:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I tracked down the study (0+ / 0-)

            And the reality seems to be that the election was so close that you can pick evidence to decide who won depending on what rules you set.  The overvote seems to benefit Gore, although the undervote was the source of all the litigation and the eventual Supreme Court case.

            So, if it had gone ahead without the Supreme Court case, Bush wins, if it had gone ahead according to Gore's proposal, Bush wins, if it had gone ahead according to Bush's proposal Bush wins, if, on the other hand there is a full recount including over votes, (well, ok a full recount of only the under/over votes), then Gore wins unless you require three judges to agree before counting an overvote in which case Bush wins.

            The Palm Beach fiasco was clearly an issue, although not as much as many think.  Although Buchannan got noticibly more votes there, he lives there at least part of the year and thus some people actually know him.  And, of course, there is the offsetting, little-discussed issue that the networks called the state for Gore while voting was still going on in the conservative panhandle -- which subsequently had statistically lower votes.  Of course since they didn't vote, they didn't vote.

  •  The Clintons (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    latts, livosh1, mightymouse

      have earned their media scrutiny. Obama will get his in due time.

      I wish Obama had left the Clinton administration alone....but he's correct on the points. One of Bill Clinton's biggest failures was overseeing the loss of Congress and his absolute inability to turn the popularity of his presidency into taking back the House and Senate.

      He listened to Dick Morris too much. Thankfully at least he's gone from the Clinton inner circle.

    •  You didn't even read (0+ / 0-)

      what is here did you?  You addressed not a single point in the diary.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:28:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes I read the diary (0+ / 0-)

          and I addressed the point about President Clinton's popularity. It had rebounded by 1996, yet no takeover. By 2000, it was, at times, almost 75%, yet we didn't come close to taking back Congress. It was a failure under Bill Clinton's watch and Obama has every right to point that out. People need to quit complaining that it's an indictment of the Clinton Presidency....its not. It's an indictment of one failure of Clinton...and a fair one to attack at that.

        •  How is it Bill's fault? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          badger

          This is ridiculous.  This is completely counterintuitive, to blame a popular president for losses of his party.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:51:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bill's success (0+ / 0-)

              was limited to him. As we saw in 2002, the popularity of a President can make a difference in Congressional races...but Bill Clinton decided triangulation was the best way to go...which saved his own ass, but didn't give anyone else any room to attach themselves.

  •  Al Gore won? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Inland

    Thank goodness. You mean the past 8 years have been some kind of nightmare? Oh my god. I feel so much better.

    There is no doubt that if Bill Clinton could have spared us from knowing way too much about his sexual escapades Al Gore would have been President.

    •  He won in the measures that matter. (0+ / 0-)

      That runs directly counter to the idea that Bill ruined the party.  Gore was running basically on the Clinton record and won the popular vote with it.  Despite very unfair treatment by the media much like what Hillary has been getting now and much like what Obama will get if he is the nominee.  The media has been bashing her because they thought she would be the nominee.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:36:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No. mike. Sorry. (0+ / 0-)

        To "win in the measures that matter" would have been to get that few extra votes that would have meant the great man would have been able to occupy the white house and do some good for this country. Gore had to run AWAY from the Clinton record. He was handicapped from talking too much about the Clinton white house because the electorate was all Clinton fatigued out. Don't rewrite history here.

        •  OK, you have not substantiated (0+ / 0-)

          that.  Although he did not let Bill campaign for him, which might be perceived as a mistake, he did run on the record of the previous 8 years. (link)

          In 2000, Bill Bradley, the former New Jersey senator, characterized the Clinton Presidency as timid and accommodationist, while Vice-President Al Gore ran on Clinton’s record. In 2004, Howard Dean ran on an antiwar message, but he tried to rally Democrats who believed that Clintonism was fundamentally unprincipled; John Kerry recruited people from the Clinton White House and associated himself with the centrist Democratic Leadership Council. Hillary’s advisers argue that the obvious lesson of those two campaigns is that invoking Democratic resentment about Clinton’s ideological and personal failings does not work.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:09:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  To argue Mike that in an election that was that (0+ / 0-)

            close, that Bill did not cost Al Gore the election, is just not logical. He ran partially on the Clinton years because what else was he going to do. And it cost him enough votes to lose. Would anyone argue that if the Bill Clinton Presidency had not ended in scandal that that wouldn't have added enough votes to win? That just defies logic.

            •  Gore got more votes (0+ / 0-)

              than any previous Democratic contendor, including Bill.  When you factor in an extremely hostile media and the fact that Bill didn't actually get asked to campaign, there seems plenty of blame to pass at others besides Bill.  And then there is Nader.  These efforts to blame it all on Bill just don't mesh with all the facts.

              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

              by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:48:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Gore ran like the wind from the Clintons. (0+ / 0-)

              I think if he'd owned the years and put the still-popular Clinton on the campaign trail for him, he could have won it decisively.

              Gore picked freaking Lieberman as his VP just to prove he wasn't like the Clintons and let the scolds determine the narrative.

              I'm sorry, but when I get down to logic I'll believe my lying eyes that watched the campaign over this new viewpoint that people hated Bill Clinton so much they wouldn't vote for his vice president.

              •  Thank you!!! (0+ / 0-)

                We disagree over the semantics of whether Gore "won" or not.  But I think we agree on the substance.  Thanks for the comments!!

                The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:21:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  And if you believe there weren't enough (0+ / 0-)

                people who voted against Gore because of Clinton to swing the race, then there is no discussing logically with you. Almost anything could have swung the small amount of votes that Gore needed, and Bill Clinton was one of those things.

                If you don't admit that, then you're just shilling for Hillary. It's inarguable.

      •  The only measure that really matters ... (0+ / 0-)

        is if he got to sit in the White House, so I'd have to dispute this.

        Now, I don't disagree that Gore was treated very unfairly and that Hillary Clinton deserves better than she's getting on a Democratic site. But although Gore didn't lose the popular vote (and arguably didn't lose the electoral vote), he didn't win.

        •  I think the appropriate (0+ / 0-)

          thing to say is that the Supreme Court didn't let him have what he actually won.  He won the election but was denied the Presidency.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:19:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Did he blame? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    livosh1

    or state a fact? We did lose the majority. That's a fact. You don't have to blame the Clintons to restate the fact.

    To say the "Contract on America" was just a statistical fluke based on retirements is really dumb; don't care what one reviewer tries to argue.

    I read the quote. It wasn't a put-down.

    •  that isn;t what I said at all (0+ / 0-)

      I said the economy was the deciding factor in 1994.  And I gave good evidence that the actual Contract with America wasn't introduced in time to make the impact that is claimed for it.  Here is a jpeg of the actual mailer.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:39:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Where did the mailing come from? (0+ / 0-)

        It looks unprofessional from your scan.

        Of course, it doesn't blame the Clintons. I do think that the economy was a major factor.

        •  That was discussed (0+ / 0-)

          here. Sometimes it is hard to tell what something looks like based on a scan.  I agree this does look unprofessional based on just this scan.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 05:09:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Bill Clinton did (0+ / 0-)

    some remarkable things - the Northern Ireland Easter accord, for example - and some crappy things (Nafta, "welfare reform", DOMA).  But I don't think that Hillary Clinton should be held accountable for Bill Clinton's presidency, it's failures or it's successes.  

    There is plenty for Democrats to attack about the Republicans.  I wish Obama would stick to focusing on those issues, myself.   Hillary Clinton was a dignified and gracious first lady during what must have been a hellish time for her on many levels, and I don't think it helps Obama to remind people of that.  

  •  Race card (0+ / 0-)

    was injected/played by the Clinton camp. It's best if they don't resort to such tactics again if they don't want to end up in Dem. party hall of shame. I don't think supporters like you should want to go there either.

    Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

    by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:42:24 PM PDT

    •  OK, so Jesse Jr. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      badger, JoeySky18

      didn't do it and Michelle and donna brazile didn't twist Bill's words out of context and the Obama campaign didn't put out a memo with other false charges of racism they wanted to disseminate.  All those videos here that prove otherwise are a figment of my imagination.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:03:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i don't think Obama campaign (0+ / 0-)

        made any charges of racism, per se, on the part of the Clintons.

        It is perfectly legit and, in fact, the right thing to do to point out the sleaziness (as cataloged at the wiki link I gave above, eg) of the Clinton camp when they tried to marginalize Obama since Dec and through SC to box him in as a "black candidate". WJC's JJ remark on the day of the SC primary tells it all.

        Their nasty and divisive tactic has been rejected by voters in large part with Obama winning several mostly-white states yesterday as well as IA, as well as with the drubbing HRC got in SC.

        Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

        by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:35:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes they did. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JoeySky18

          I documented them.  Michelle twisted Bill's words out of context to turn "fairytale" into a racist remark.  And they sent out talking points, four pages worth, to play up the racism angle, all to inflame blacks and make them not vote for Hillary.  and it worked.  In the link i gave, there is video of Tim Russert calling Obama on it during a debate, after Obama had loudly denied playing it up.  I don't have the video of Michelle doing that but there is a link to a reference to the speech she gave.  They did play the race card and I have documented it.  To continue to deny it is to contradict what your own eyes can see here.  It is under what I called "Fairy tale #2."

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:54:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  By the way (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JoeySky18

          See my discussion of the Jackson comment here.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:17:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  This is (partially) true. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mightymouse

    Democrats lost in the 1990s because:

    1. Republicans were better organized.
    1. It was the end of a natural cycle of entrenchment and corruption.
    1. Clinton, along with other Democrats, was running away from both liberal policies and the 'liberal' moniker.  It made it look shameful to be a liberal.
    •  OK, I documented everything I said. (0+ / 0-)

      So how is it "partially" true.  And why is your explanation legitimate and how does it disprove mine?  I want more than statements please.  But I do appreciate that you are commenting.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:53:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmmm. (0+ / 0-)

        1. It's "partially" true because Clinton's practice of running away from liberalism contributed to successful Republican attempts to stigmatize liberals.  Since what Democrats have to offer is liberalism, Clinton's decision to run away from liberalism made it harder to sell Democratic ideas and faces.
        1. You're asking me to explain why my explanation is legitimate and provide more than statements. What do you want? Scripture? Read up on the Overton Window.Overton Window Politics is the art of the possible.

        Anyway, my point wasn't to disprove your analysis, it was to put it into context. Of course Bill Clinton shouldn't get blamed for all the ills of the Democratic party during the 1990s.  On the other hand, Bill Clinton gets credit for a lot of things that he shouldn't get credit for.  For example, he's credited with the success of the economy during his tenure - credit that is mostly unwarranted.

        •  He gets full credit (0+ / 0-)

          for reforming the tax code and balancing the budget.  The tech and internet-related boom drove the economy, so it is true he doesn't get full credit for that.  But if Bush had followed the Clinton tax code we wouldn't have the deficit we have.  Corporate profits have been at record levels and fair taxes, as under Clinton, would have helped avoid the deficit.  He gets credit for sound fiscal policies at the very least.  We can have an extended debate over the rest.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 08:46:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  slims a she (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mikepridmore

    And it is too bad she doesn't share the grace you show in admitting you went too far.

    Obama is running against Hillary Clinton, he seems to have decided that he has to tear down Bill Clinton to win. That is why he had surrogates call every issue attack Bill made racist. It made Hillary Clinton's attempts to get to Barack's record seem divisive, and gave him more room to avoid clearly saying what he will do as president.

    Obama's tactics deeply wound the Democratic party and make it very difficult for him to build on the things the party has accomplished over the past few decades. It has also reduced his ability to depend on the Democratic base in the general election. Should he become president he may have crippled his administration.

  •  A Fact is a Fact (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mikepridmore

    We LOST Senators, Representatives and Governors during the 90s' -- more than EVER before.

    Most Presidents, when doing well (which Bill was doing domestically) brings along coat tails of congressional people and State legislatures.  Bill Clinton did not.  He LOST them.

    The question is --- why?  When everything domestically was doing SO WELL?  We were at peace, etc..  Ask yourself why?

    When did we really lose big?  1994.  After Hillary stepped in to force Health Care bill on Americans.  

    In 2000, Al Gore brought along with him the Clinton Impeachment (americans were angry at Dems).

    Obama stated a FACT - at least he's not MAKING stuff up like Hillary's been doing or exaggerating the truth.

    Coonsey's World http://coonsey.wordpress.com/

    by cscmm on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:52:16 PM PDT

    •  Damn I wish people would learn to read. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      JoeySky18

      In 1994 it was the economy.  And one has to factor in an unfair media that Obama will sooner or later have to face if he is the Dem nominee.  Retirements were the cornerstone of the 1994 losses.  It was the Democratic scandals, which I documented, and the subsequent retirements that were the issue.  Explain how that was Bill's fault.  His popularity didn't translate into coattails because the Democratic congress had left a bad taste in people's mouths.  He was wrong with what he did with Monica.  But his approval ratings contradict the point you are trying to make.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:00:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent Post - Trashing Clinton will get you a (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mikepridmore, badger, JoeySky18

    seat next to:

    Walter Mondale
    Michael Dukakis
    Al Gore (Al should not be on this list, God love him)
    John Kerry

    All nice gentlemen but they lost. Obama will not win over independents or Republicans in the general election by taking cheap shots at Bill Clinton's presidency. Things will change dramatically in the general election and Obama (along with his followers) will not know what hit them. At that point he can get on the phone with Bill and Bill will clue him in.

  •  It's not About the 1990's (0+ / 0-)

    I agree with a lot in this diary but I think the underlying assumption here is that the election is somehow a referendum on the 1990's and the Clinton record.  A lot of voters see it that way I suppose.  Most voters, IMHO, see it as about the future.  I just got back from St. Louis here :-)  There is some nostalga for the Clintons but the future beats that every time.  I miss the Beatles & the Dead too, but it's over.

    Hillary just doesn't have a message about today or tomorrow.  Her campaign song should be "Yesterday".  Clinton deserves a lot of credit for peace & prosperity.  He earned his Presidential pension.  Fine, next?

    John McCain on Iraq: "McCain in NH: Would Be 'Fine' To Keep Troops in Iraq for 'A Hundred Years' "

    by howardpark on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:06:25 PM PDT

    •  OK, I agree that it should be about (0+ / 0-)

      the future.  That's why I would rather hear Obama explain how he plans to achieve his objectives, beyond inspiring people.  Notice that last point, which is that Barack's methods are just the same as the ones Bill used.  Those methods have to be talked about.  Otherwise, he is just all talk and no meaningful action.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:12:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Read "The Audacity of Hope" (0+ / 0-)

        The Obama Campaign started with a rather wonkish book called "The Audacity of Hope".  It was on that book tour -- and it sold really, really well, that Obama got serious about running.  There is plenty of specifics in the book.  You should read it!  Hillary had a couple of books from the 1990's but nothing like Obama's book.  Obama has it down on the page.  

        John McCain on Iraq: "McCain in NH: Would Be 'Fine' To Keep Troops in Iraq for 'A Hundred Years' "

        by howardpark on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:26:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  you're not the first person to be driven nuts (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    badger

    by icebergslim. He/she has accused people of racism on multiple occasions. No need to apologize in my opinion.

  •  YES - Donate to Obama - 5 million in one day (0+ / 0-)

  •  Sadly there is truth to go around (0+ / 0-)

    I have a gut check reaction to Democrats attacking Democrats. I do not like it, but that is part of a hard fought primary season.

    And one person's "fair: critique of the facts is another's "hit dairy" or "dirty trick".

    The Democratic Party failed to be a National Party in the 1990s. Perhaps the trouble started in the 1980s. All of our resources were sent and spent to feed the top of the ticket. Everything went to the the big race in the four year cycle.

    entire regions of the country were written off.

    This accelerated under Bill Clinton and our lack of a grassroots infrastructure led to the Bush installation in 2000 and his win in 2004.

    Dean was the first to lead a needed change.

    Obama is taking it to the next level.

    Look where Senator Clinton did not campaign in advance of February 5th. Like Bill, her campaign is writing off millions of Democrats. I think Obama is correct to make this an issue in the primary.

    It should be..

    Time to clean up DeLay's petri dish! Help CNMI guest workers find justice! Learn more at Unheard No More.

    by dengre on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:25:36 PM PDT

    •  our lack of a grassroots infrastructure (0+ / 0-)

      "This accelerated under Bill Clinton and our lack of a grassroots infrastructure led to the Bush installation in 2000 and his win in 2004."

      As I always like to do in the candidate diaries, a caveat...I definitely will vote for Hillary if she is the nominee.  But....

      The whining of the Clinton supporters is getting onerous.  Yes, they have been treated unfairly in the media throughout the years.  Yes, they have been unfairly attacked by the Republicans over the years.  But this flyer is nothing other than hardnose politics, and it's not even that hardnosed.  Not caring about convenient polling places until it looks like it will hurt, not caring about Florida and Michigan voters until it appears they will help...that's dirty politics.

      Through all of the whining for Bill, what Hillary supporters fail to acknowledge is the active role her husband paid in fighting the development of the grassroots.  What they don't acknowledge is that Bill never defended progressive values.  Quite the opposite.  Bill had lots and lots and lots of values that were directly in line with the Republican values, doing little other than pay lip service to progressives.

      And that is what lead to the loss of Democratic power in the 1990's and 2000's.  It was the constant selling out of ideals in the name of political expediency.  It was the narrowing of the difference between Democratic and Republican ideals that Bill embodies.  It was the constant pandering and empty promises, and top heavy prioritization that Bill insisted on.  It was losing the high ground by selling out to lobbyists and corporate money and illegal campaign contributions.  

      All this while ignoring how the Republican grassroots and think tanks and media connections were coalescing into the moster that manufactured the atmosphere that allowed Bush to steal the election.  In other words, he stood by and let the Republicans be 'the party of ideas.'  They were the party of ideas.

      •  You forgot to mention (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        JoeySky18

        the part where he was having to deal with a $50,000,000 years long attack during this period.  And the netroots didn't really exist until after he left office.  And he has campaigned for a lot of the 50 State Strategy Candidates, and his friend james Carville has helped do research to look for opportunities to expand under that strategy. (PDF)  He happened to campaign and fundraise for my friend Eric Massa in NY-29, and Eric talks with Jim Dean, Howard's brother a lot.  You guys are giving Bill a false rap with this.  There has been a big tussle between the DLC and the netroots during the Bush years, but that was before Howard Dean took over from McAuliffe and Bill's presidency wasn't part of that tussle.

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:02:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And I should add (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        JoeySky18

        that the Republicans started the think tank stuff decades before Bill was in office. People who were part of the Clinton team are in the Democratic think tanks now.

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:04:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think she had to go where (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      JoeySky18

      she had resources to go.  I don't think that was completely by choice.  And I think the trouble goes all the way back to 1968. (link)

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:07:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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