Daily Kos

The Progressive Christian Case for Obama

Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:06:21 AM PDT

Note: Cross-posted at Raising Kaine.

Perhaps the most endearing thing about the Democratic Party is its unique ability to represent the beliefs of such a wide range of American citizens. Within our ranks, we have environmentalists and trade unionists, peace activists and feminists,  small business owners and trial lawyers and even our fair share of business executives. Though its a cliche in American politics, a cliche that often seems far from the truth in an era of increasing partisan polarization, the Democratic Party is truly a "big tent." It is because of this big tent philosophy that I've come out of blogosphere hiding to write to you today.


The Problem

I am, as are many of my fellow Democrats, a devout Christian. For years, in the eyes of many Democrats, the word "Christian" has been dragged through the mud by the growing volume of the Christian fundamentalist voice in this country. As a result, many in the left have come to distrust people of faith. As a result, Progressive Christians have very much been driven underground. To use another tired political cliche, Progressive Christians have become the "silent majority" in America. Within the Mainline Protestant denominations especially (Not to say there aren't Progressive Christians of all stripes. I only cite this as an example because of my own experience as a cradle Episcopalian.), there are Progressive Christians abound, but how are we supposed to communicate OUR faith and values to our fellow Democrats when they've become accustomed to a country where the newsmedia talks about Christians like we're some sort of reliable Republican voting bloc? Christian Democrats fear that by wearing their faith on their sleeves, they will be be painted by their fellow progressives with the same brush as the James Dobsons and Pat Robertsons of the world. This is, I believe, the real shame of our "big tent" of a party.

Though this has changed for the better in the past couple of years, we, as a party, are a long way from truly bringing the voices of Progressive Christians into the fold. Here in Virginia, we are  fortunate to have a governor in Tim Kaine who proudly spoke of his Catholic faith during his campaign. As someone who's progressive beliefs are ENTIRELY guided by my faith, I was so proud to see Governor Kaine take a stand for Progressive Christians everywhere by reminding us that its perfectly acceptable to be a Christian Democrat.


What We Should Do About It

As a party, we need to stand up and say, once and for all, that its not only acceptable, but ADMIRABLE for a politician to let his or her faith guide them in their ideology and decision making. When I go to church, when I read the Gospels, I don't see anything about tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. I don't see anything about preemptive war. I don't see anything about discriminating against someone for their sexual orientation. What I see is an underlying message, the story of someone who I believe to be both God and man. Someone who set an example for us all to live by. Blessed are the poor and the meek and the peacemakers. Love your neighbor as yourself. These, as most moderate to progressive Christians would tell you, are the key values of Christianity. And they are the values of progressives everywhere. When will we move past divisive hot-button social issues, embrace our common ideals, and work together to eliminate the horrible violence of poverty and injustice in our country? I believe St. John Chrysostom, an early patriarch of Constantinople and a master of the art of homeletics, said it best:

"This is the rule of the most perfect Christianity, its most exact definition, its highest point, namely, the seeking of the common good. For nothing can so make a person an imitator of Christ as caring for his neighbors."

This ideal, CARING FOR OUR NEIGHBORS, is our common goal as Christians and Progressives. I await the day that we truly can work together for the common good of this nation.

A Progressive Christian's Endorsement
That brings me to the purpose of this post. Until a couple days ago I was very much on board with John Edwards campaign for President. In Senator Edwards I saw someone whos ideology reflected the ideals of my faith. First and foremost Senator Edwards stood for fighting poverty and extending health coverage to all. Also, he was never afraid to discuss how his faith as a Christian inspired him, a multimillionaire lawyer, to take up the cause of the other America of those living in poverty. With Senator Edwards out of the race, it seems to me that only one of the remaining candidates in this Democratic primary is truly the kind of leader that embodies these ideals: Senator Barack Obama.

Policywise, there are a number of reasons for my support of Senator Obama. For example, a Clinton White House would likely continue to support NAFTA, a trade policy enacted during Bill Clinton's Presidency that has been disasterous to American working families. Also, while Senator Obama has remained consistant in his opposition to the unjust and immoral war in Iraq, Senator Clinton has continually refused to apologize for her vote to authorize President Bush to use force or adequately explain why she failed to vote for the Levin amendment which would have provided some valuable checks on President Bush's power to wage war.

In reality, my support of Senator Obama boils down to much more than policy distinctions which, admittedly, aren't by any means extreme. The real reason is this: After eight years of horrible division and partisan polarization in the United States under two Bush administrations, only Senator Obama offers the possibility of an America which can put aside ideological differences from time to time and work for the common good. Most importantly, as a Progressive Christian, I believe Senator Obama, who is a devout member of the United Church of Christ, will be a President who has the ability and inspirational leadership to create an America where people of all faiths will really and truly be welcomed with open arms into the Democratic Party. That is just something I don't see happening under the continued polarization of a Clinton White House. When we remain so divided, many Democrats misguided mistrust of Christians cannot and will not be fixed.

In an America with a President Obama, I see the possibility that we can all, Black, White, Hispanic, or Asian, pro-choice or pro-life, gay or straight, Christian, Muslim, Jew, or atheist, finally set aside our relatively small differences and work together to, as St. Chrysostom said so many years ago, put our emphasis first and foremost on caring for our neighbors.

Poll

Should the Democratic Party do more to reach out to Progressive Christians?

77%28 votes
11%4 votes
8%3 votes
2%1 votes

| 36 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Christian, Christianity, Obama, Barack Obama, Democrats, Democratic Party, Progressive, Progressive Christians (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 73 comments

  •  I agree (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bpkybe

    Great diary.  I have always been a Progressive Christian and you put it so nicely.  I have rec'd your diary and I hope that many folks read this to have a better understanding that there are people of faith who do not hate, restrict and try to control others.  Blessed are them.

    •  Thanks! (0+ / 0-)

      I hope this makes the Rec'd list. I think its great that the poll shows such overwhelming support for bring Progressive Christians more into the fold.

      I long for the day that Progressive Christians are able to openly talk about their faith without fear of being made to feel unwelcome by people who have been rubbed the wrong way by the Christian Right.

  •  personally? I would rather you stfu (0+ / 0-)

    about your "faith". I am leaning toward Obama but the one thing that could drive me to Hillary would be one more speech on how important his "faith" is to him.

    The fact that you're superstitious and a Democrat does not impress me. I would rather go on thinking that it is your business what rituals and lucky socks you feel you need to get through the day.

    1. "The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

    -- Thomas Jefferson, discussion of the virgin birth in a letter to John Adams.

    The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

    by NCrefugee on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:22:42 AM PDT

    •  Whoa! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hhex65

      People have different reasons why they pick a candidate and it is valid.  It may not be your reason.  There is no need to be rude.

      And Thomas Jefferson... that man owned people. Shame.

    •  No offensive NCrefugee (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rich Santoro

      but this is the sort of thing that has really hurt the Democratic Party. Did you actually just equate religion to having "lucky socks?" Thats blatantly offensive hate speech.

      Progressivism isn't your private atheist-only club. By shutting out the millions of Progressive Christians in the United States from the Democratic Party, all you're doing is cheapening Progressive ideals by limiting the participation of a HUGE group of potential voters that doesn't feel welcome because of this sort of venomous hate speech. Its EXACTLY what we accuse the right of doing.

      For many of us, faith and ideology cannot be separated. Its not like we're trying to impose our views on you. Far from it. I think I speak for Progressive Christians everywhere when I say that we just want a seat at the table.

    •  To clue you in... (0+ / 0-)

      TJ was well read and versed in the Bible (and the Koran)...  He did not dismiss it outright, but rather spent a great deal of time studying it... to understand its tenets, failings, virtues, and the underlying principles of religion and faith.  He is the first true member to the Church of Reality, in that he made deep considerations into religion and faith as being a part of the world around us (historically and culturally).  He wanted to understand it.  Why quote TJ as an authority on this matter, if you are not willing to consider things as he did???  But if you would rather be divisive over the issue, that is your perogative.

      But perhaps you could consider not letting the likes of Falwell and Robertson, Jime Jones, and the local Bible thumpers and hell-fire preachers that knock on your door, mold your judgement regarding people of faith.  In any event, peace...

      "There is no trickle down, because greed expands to absorb any excess." - Devilstower

      by Rich Santoro on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:50:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  TJ edited the BS out of the Bible... ended up (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        NCrefugee

        with a VERY slim volume!

        He was a member of NO church!

        And I don't recall Falwell, Robertson or Jones
        quoting Jefferson. They do, however, constantly
        misstate/lie about the teachings of Jesus.

        •  Yes... and... (0+ / 0-)

          My point was that he studied it...  He did not just dismiss it outright, and most certainly not with vitriol.  

          And my comment about Falwell, Robertson, etc... was that they were/are indeed nutjob oppressors, and one ought not let their example spoil one's overall view of Christians.

          "There is no trickle down, because greed expands to absorb any excess." - Devilstower

          by Rich Santoro on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:07:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It took exactly one response to my post (0+ / 0-)

            for the progressive christians to start advocating abrogation of the first amendment.

            Of couse Jefferson read and studied the Bible. He took out all the superstitious nonsense and magic as well as the hateful authortarianism of Paul.

            Perhaps you will think that my opinions of Christians on either the right or the left is a result of too little contact with either?

            Sadly, no.

            1. "My aim in that was, to justify the character of Jesus against the fictions of his pseudo-followers, which have exposed him to the inference of being an impostor. For if we could believe that he really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods and the charlatanisms which his biographers father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind, that he was an impostor. I give no credit to their falsifications of his actions and doctrines, and to rescue his character, the postulate in my letter asked only what is granted in reading every other historian... I say, that this free exercise of reason is all I ask for the vindication of the character of Jesus. We find in the writings of his biographers matter of two distinct descriptions. First, a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstitions, fanaticisms and fabrications. Intermixed with these, again, are sublime ideas of the Supreme Being, aphorisms and precepts of the purest morality and benevolence, sanctioned by a life of humility, innocence and simplicity of manners, neglect of riches, absence of worldly ambition and honors, with an eloquence and persuasiveness which have not been surpassed. These could not be inventions of the groveling authors who relate them. They are far beyond the powers of their feeble minds. They shew that there was a character, the subject of their history, whose splendid conceptions were above all suspicion of being interpolations from their hands... That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore. But that he might conscientiously believe himself inspired from above, is very possible... Excusing, therefore, on these considerations, those passages in the gospels which seem to bear marks of weakness in Jesus, ascribing to him what alone is consistent with the great and pure character of which the same writings furnish proofs, and to their proper authors their own trivialities and imbecilities, I think myself authorised to conclude the purity and distinction of his character, in opposition to the impostures which those authors would fix upon him; and that the postulate of my former letter is no more than is granted in all other historical works.

            -- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William Short describing why he wrote a "Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus and referring to Jesus’ biographers, the Gospel writers."

            The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

            by NCrefugee on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:08:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Dems are the big tent party (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rich Santoro

    We should do everything we to get our message to Christians and other groups because if we do we will bring more into our party. I think it is great to be in a political party with people who have different spiritual views than I do, diversity is strength! Nice diary.

  •  Interesting (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    TennesseeGurl

    Progressive Christians are, by and large, more liberal than the Democratic Party.

    It would be an amazing thing if the Democratic Party's views on social issues matched that of, let's say, the United Church of Christ. But, that would move the party well to the left of Obama, Clinton, and a whole lot of those who would call themselves progressives. Oh well!

  •  I'm a Progressive Christian with Jewish leanings (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    TennesseeGurl

    I'm support Senator Obama completely.  I just maxed out for the Primaries and looking forward to maxing out for the General.

    As soon as I stop worrying, worrying how the story ends, I let go and I let God, let God have His way. "It's the soldier, not.."

    by Lady Bird Johnson on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:29:56 AM PDT

  •  Without Progessive Christians there would be no (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hhex65

    Civil Rights...

    We are watching John McCain decompose right before our very eyes..

    by TennesseeGurl on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:30:58 AM PDT

    •  Great Point (0+ / 0-)

      The abolition of the slave trade in the US and England would also have taken a lot longer without Progressive Christians.

      The same applies to the achievement of the 8 hour work day, the abolition of child labor, the introduction of the graduated income tax, and the minimum wage, all products of the Social Gospel movement of Christianity during the Progressive era. So many preachers used to get up in the pulpit on Sundays and talk about these issues. Some still do, but not nearly enough. I feel very strongly that it is the calling of my life to change that.

      •  What should Democrats say to earn the (0+ / 0-)

        support of progressive Christians?  

        What are Democrats doing now that makes progressive Christians feel unwanted?

        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

        by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:07:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lumping us in with fundamentalists, for starters (0+ / 0-)

          Not supporting equal marriage doesn't help much either.

          Going along with the war didn't help. Yes, I know that not many on here supported it, but it didn't have support only from the republican party.

          Supporting so-called "free trade" doesn't help.

          And some of the things that some Democrats have to say about undocumented immigrants are positively revolting.....can't imagine Jesus wanting to deport people, sorry.

          A start?

          •  I have seen this before, the lumping problem (0+ / 0-)

            that is.  My observation is that the person who is offended by this is usually the one who is doing the lumping.  Don't be hypersensitive.  When someone talks about Christians it is usually clear from the context what kind of Christian they are talking about.  I have never heard anyone here talk about progressive Christians in a negative way.  I don't accept the idea that people don't know that some Christians are not fundamentalists.  

            If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

            by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:23:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Most of the media doesn't know this (0+ / 0-)

              Every time there is a "Christian" voice invited to Meet the Press or what not, it's a fundamentalist. The head of the UCC or Disciples of Christ never is asked to give the "Christian view."

              My observation is that the person who is offended by this is usually the one who is doing the lumping.  Don't be hypersensitive.  

              You asked a question, I gave you an answer. I have no idea from where you've drawn that observation, but you're quite wrong. The idea that progressive Christians would lump themselves in with fundamentalist worldviews is quite farcical.

              •  I got the observation from being immersed (0+ / 0-)

                in the Christian world for more than 60 years.  I have been exposed to Catholics, I was married to one, Baptists, I was raised one and graduated from Baylor and have many friends who are Baptists and some are preachers, and I have many friends who are Methodists, and two are preachers.  I am probably the only non-Christian that most of them know.  

                This phenomenon of easily-bruised feelings is very common.  Most people have heard of "Christian brotherhood."  Well this phenomenon is known as "Christian victimhood."  Christians are well known for saying that they are victims or they are misunderstood, or that they are treated unfairly.  I have seen it all my life.  So you can reject it all you wish, but it is still true.

                If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

                by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:52:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  It starts by giving them a seat at the table. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pucknomad

          I would say that there's just a general feeling of mistrust held by many progressives towards Christians in general. Any signal from the Democratic Party that people of faith are welcome would be a step in the right direction.

          A major initiative by the national party geared towards people of faith would be incredibly productive.

          •  I don't see it at all. I think both parties (0+ / 0-)

            bend over backwards to welcome Christians of all varieties into the tent.  I think I'm hearing a little hypersensitivity.

            But back to the question at hand.  What sort of "signal" should the Democratic Party send that would make you feel welcome.  What exactly is that they must do?  

            What in the hell is a "major initiative by the national party geared towards people of faith?"  Be specific.  What must they actually say and do?  What the hell are you talking about?  Sounds like hurt feelings to me.  

            If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

            by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:21:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  They are really doing nothing at all... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pucknomad

          That is the problem.  The only religious folks with a national identity in politics are the fundies.  They are, believe it or not, a small portion of the electorate... but they are very vocal and very politically engaged.

          Christains who are socially and politically moderate or progressive, such as the ECLA Lutherans, Methodists and the like, are simply not a part of political discourse.  The distaste for the evangelical movement has pushed the secular progressives' tolerance for religion over the edge.   I can honestly say that I often feel ushered to the margins by the agnostic and atheist progressives, and feel that it is very unfortunate that Christain identity is so often associated with policies like Huckabee, who wants to amend the constitution.

          "There is no trickle down, because greed expands to absorb any excess." - Devilstower

          by Rich Santoro on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:20:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What the hell are you talking about. (0+ / 0-)

            Be specific if you can.  You say the are doing nothing, but that is meaningless.  What should they do, that is the question.  What specifically should be done.

            But let me say that the Southern Baptists, the Methodists, the Presbyterians and the Episcopalsto name a few share many of the same political positions.  All of these churches are firmly against gay marriage, so they helped get all of these state amendments in recent years to outlaw it in 27 states.  So in this context, these churches are far from progressive.

            Also all of them, except perhaps the Episcoplas, share the same mission in life: to "make disciples of all nations."  They mean to convert people to their faith, and I resent the hell out of that and so do lots of others.  So these churches are certainly not progressive in this context.

            So set me straight.  What is it precisely that the Democratic Party is doing that makes PC's feel unwelcome?  

            What precisely must the party do to make PC's feel welcome?

            If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

            by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:31:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That question is hard to answer (0+ / 0-)

              because its not really about initiatives and action, but rather a change in negative stereotypes of Christians. It doesn't make us feel very welcome when we're lumped in with Pat Robertson and told we're crazy.

              This is touchy, but not making abortion rights a plank in the DNC platform would go a long way towards including a lot of Christians. In the long run, compared to the vast vast amounts of income inequality and poverty in America its a relatively small issue, but it it, for example, a dealbreaker for a lot of Roman Catholics.

              •  Let me understand. Are you saying that removing (0+ / 0-)

                the abortion rights plank from the DNC platform would make you feel welcome?  Are you saying that you are against abortion rights and you think that the party should not support abortion rights?

                If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

                by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:44:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I already am a Democrat (0+ / 0-)

                  and no, I don't support abortion rights in most cases. Neither does Majority Leader Reid, Sen. Bob Casey (PA), Gov. Tim Kaine (VA), Rep. Jim Oberstar (MN) (undoubtedly a Progressive on most every issue and also the co-Chair of the Congressional Pro-Life Caucus), a sizable number of Southern Democrats, and many, many other people.

                  I think its inclusion in the party platform hurts the party by excluding people who share 90% of Democratic ideals but can't get over the parties abortion stance. I vote for politicians that support abortion rights all the time because their other positions are STILL, in my view, more consistant with an "ethic of life" than are the views of just about any Republican. It would just be nice for inclusion's sake if it wasn't in the platform of our party.

                  After all, aren't we supposted to be a big tent?

                  •  So this was a sneak attack diary. (0+ / 0-)

                    You are against abortion rights.  That is the whole point.  The other complaints were simply not real and that is why you had no specifics.  

                    So you attack abortion rights and atheists.  And you align yourself with all the other anti-abortion-rights conservatives.  You misrepresented yourself you are not progressive you are fundamentalist.  That must be why so many people treat as if you are a fundamentalist.  They do it because you are.

                    I live in the heart of fundamentalist Texas and I know many fundamentalists.  Many of them try to hide their identities.  It is a peculiar behavior but not unusual.

                    Go in peace, but go without my respect.  You did not even have the courage to speak honestly.  You disrespected me.  

                    If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

                    by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:00:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  HAHAHA! (0+ / 0-)

                      Yeah, sneak attack diary, thats likely...

                      If you knew ANYTHING about me, which you don't, you would realize how absurd that statement is. If you want to know how much of a pro-life crusader in disguise I am, just ask anyone who's been following the Virginia blogs for a couple years about me. You're so self righteous it makes me sick. No one here is a cry baby. Give me a break. I am far from a fundamentalist. Thats simply laughable. I don't know too many fundamentalist, pro-gay clergy Episcopalians who read, and agree with, John Shelby Spong. I just believe in a consistant ethic of life. I suppose that if I'm a fundamentalist, so are ALL CATHOLICS and the Archbishop of Canterbury, who also oppose abortion. But that isn't really the issue here.

                      I used the DNC plank as an example, a pretty bad and inconsequential one, and it was probably a dumb idea. Rich Santoro is right in his analysis of the problem, he hit the main points of my argument in the comment below.

                      •  No, you don't get to retract the clear thread (0+ / 0-)

                        you wrote.  You snookered me.  You were gently trying to plant the idea that the Dems should come off their pro-abortion-rights position and that would make the party attractive to all those people you listed in one of your comments, including Baptists, the least progressive people in mainstream religion.  The paint washed off your spots revealing just what kind of leopard you are.  You have been found out.

                        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

                        by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:38:12 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  I would not touch the Freedom of Choice plank (0+ / 0-)

                  It is not about that...  It is just that all the rhetoric (mostly media and progressive groups) are about how the reliogious vote is conservative and gouing republican...  Dems need to make strides and say NO... there are religious folks in the priogressive movement, who feel that sin is a matter between them and God, and that we do not legislate morality.

                  There are religious folks that support the Dem party, and it is not a souless party as the religious right try to paint it.  And, like in my example, it would be great if rights groups understood that Christians are insterested in preserving the 1st amendment, and interested in equal rights, and freedom of choice.  I want to be involved in those debates, and not feel like an outsider because I am Christain.

                  "There is no trickle down, because greed expands to absorb any excess." - Devilstower

                  by Rich Santoro on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:59:47 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  OK... I religious in that I attend church to (0+ / 0-)

              practice my faith, but I am not indocrinated...  And as a matter of fact, the doctrines of churches often evolve over time.  Such as the ECLA allowing gays to be ordained, and revisitiing the debate in 2009 whether they shall continue to require that gay pastors remain celebate.  I hope they do not...

              That debate and others like it can progress in the right direction with more discussion (not necessarily just the Dem party, but progressives in general).  The Presbyterian Church and Methodist church are facing internal struggles with the matter and are divided.  So on this note, I think that you are mis-informed or under informed about the positions of churches and the their denominations.  This is where more open dialogue is necessary, this is what we are talking about...  We all need to realize that there are people that think differently all around and we need to understand each other in order to make positive changes...

              "There is no trickle down, because greed expands to absorb any excess." - Devilstower

              by Rich Santoro on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:52:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I am not a Christian and I have been a Democrat (0+ / 0-)

    for more than 60 years.  I have never asked the Democrats to make me feel wanted.  I have never asked them to do anything special for me.  And because I am not a Christian I feel unwelcome.  The Democrats don't fight to get "under God" removed from the Pledge, they don't fight to get homosexuals the right to marry in all jurisdictions, they appropriated money for faith-based groups, they open their conventions with a prayer, one of their leading presidential candidates this year was for school prayer, many of them do talk about their faith, and I find all of these things offensive.  So I am still mystified as to why progressive Christians don't feel welcome.  

    If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

    by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:16:36 AM PDT

    •  I am wholeheartedly for separation of Church and (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pucknomad

      State... and I am more talking about the discussions and tones from progressive groups.  Janeane Girafolo and Julia Sweeney for example, are very strong rights activists, and in the middle of a commercial about an organization they are members of and trying to advance (to protect the 1st amendment or something) they are explicit that are atheists and are suggestive that religion is the problem...

      The wind goes out of my sails...  They don't want to include me in an effort that I believe in...

      "There is no trickle down, because greed expands to absorb any excess." - Devilstower

      by Rich Santoro on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:31:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Those are people who are expressing their views, (0+ / 0-)

        and they have the right to do that.  So why don't you express yours?  But still they are not the Democratic Party, they may be Democrats, but they aren't all Democrats.  So if this all you can use to justify your position then you just understand how the world works.  If you want to help advance a progressive agenda then you must expect people to resist, and you must people to disagree even if they also call themselves progressive Christians.  And are you saying that religion is not a great big stinking steaming problem in American today?

        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

        by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:35:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Good point (0+ / 0-)

        On his HBO show, Bill Maher, someone who is respected by a lot of "Progressives" often portrays Christians as having some sort of psychological problem. Its offensive and it divides a group of people with largely the same set of ideals.

      •  Should we boot Girafolo and Sweeney out (0+ / 0-)

        of the party, would that make you feel welcome?  Who else is on your list?  Don't you like atheists?  Should we kick all of them out of the party as well?

        Do you think that atheists are better treated in American society than Christians?

        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

        by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:38:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Its not about special treatment. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pucknomad

      That would be ridiculous. Its about Progressive Christians not being treated like superstitious freaks by non-Christian Democrats. If we're supposed to be so open-minded, why can so many progressives still not do that?

      All I'm saying is that it would be beneficial for both Progressive Christians and non-Christian Progressives to give Christians a strong case to rally together and support bibilcally mandated calls for social justice.

      •  What "biblically mandated calls for (0+ / 0-)

        social justice are you talking about?

        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

        by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:40:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Read the Sermon on the Mount (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pucknomad

          Really, just go ahead and read the entirety of the gospels. Whether you believe he was the "son of God" or not, its hard to deny that Jesus was a social reformer as well as a religious teacher.

          •  I have read the Sermon on the Mount. (0+ / 0-)

            Many times.  I was raised a Southern Baptist and I graduated from Baylor University.  The study of Christian doctrine has been a great interest of mine since childhood.  And I agree that Jesus was a great reformer.  But you must agree that he was not a Christian.  Jesus did not found Christianity.  It was founded by those who lived after him, in some cases centuries after him.  

            But I'm beginning to think that you have nothing to complain about.  People just don't seem to treat you with the respect you are sure you deserve.  Welcome to real life.

            If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

            by hestal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:49:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're forgetting something... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              pucknomad

              Progressive Christians are more concerned with emulating Jesus than what you would call "Christianity."

              I'm not complaining, and it seems the majority of people agree with me. It is as much of a call for Progressive Christians to get involved in progressive politics as it is for progressive politics to accept Progressive Christians. There is the potential for a greater partnership than currently exists. Thats all I'm saying.

    •  Hmm, perhaps it's because (0+ / 0-)

      So I am still mystified as to why progressive Christians don't feel welcome.

      The Democrats don't fight to get "under God" removed from the Pledge, they don't fight to get homosexuals the right to marry in all jurisdictions, they appropriated money for faith-based groups, they open their conventions with a prayer, & one of their leading presidential candidates this year was for school prayer.

      Progressive Christians don't want to mix church and state, they think all people should have the right to marry, they don't support giving government $$ to religious groups, and they don't like the idea of forcing people to pray .... in schools or otherwise.

      Contrary to what you have stated elsewhere, you have clearly not spent time with any progressive Christians. Hint -- Baylor University is about as opposite of progressive Christianity as you can get, save perhaps Bob Jones.

  •  This is an enormously dangerous idea. (0+ / 0-)

    As a party, we need to stand up and say, once and for all, that its not only acceptable, but ADMIRABLE for a politician to let his or her faith guide them in their ideology and decision making.

    This suggestion is not only unconstitutional but is frankly highly unethical.

    Since your faith can tell you anything, cannot be proved, cannot be argued, and as granted by many believers can defy the available facts and evidence.

    Why is your faith better than James Dobson's?  If you can provide me reasons why your faith is better then you can justify your position and there is no need to rely upon your faith.  If you cannot provide good reasons why it is better then there is no reason for us to trust you are anyone else's faith.

    Logic, reason, and science can be the only just and reasonable standards by which to judge policy and legislation.  The rest is just an appeal to emotion.

    Puskara

    Theology is to legitimate scholarship as playing doctor is to brain surgery.

    by Puskara on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:42:23 PM PDT

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