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Reason #5930 for the invasion of Iraq, liberating Iraqi women, has been thoroughly debunked.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The images in the Basra police file are nauseating: Page after page of women killed in brutal fashion -- some strangled to death, their faces disfigured; others beheaded. All bear signs of torture.

The women are killed, police say, because they failed to wear a headscarf or because they ignored other "rules" that secretive fundamentalist groups want to enforce.

"Fear, fear is always there," says 30-year-old Safana, an artist and university professor. "We don't know who to be afraid of. Maybe it's a friend or a student you teach. There is no break, no security. I don't know who to be afraid of."

Her fear is justified. Iraq's second-largest city, Basra, is a stronghold of conservative Shia groups. As many as 133 women were killed in Basra last year -- 79 for violation of "Islamic teachings" and 47 for so-called honor killings, according to IRIN, the news branch of the U.N.'s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs....

"We thought there would be freedom and democracy and women would have their rights. But all the things we were promised have not come true. There is only fear and horror."

That pretty much redefines freedom and democracy in Bushspeak. It means freedom for private contractors to exploit this war for every dime they can get. I'm not sure where the democracy fits into the picture, but it pretty much means fear and horror for everyone else involved who isn't a profiteer. Which Saint McCain thinks is just hunky-dory.

(H/T Crooks and Liars)

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:21 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Yeah, but the surge is working!!!!!!!!! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    groggy, mjd in florida, esquimaux

    fucking NOT!

    I am a Gaybamaman. A gay man who is for Obama.

    by BoyBlue on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:23:51 PM PST

    •  It surpassed the goals the authors of the surge . (5+ / 0-)

      .. had for it:  postpone discussion of withdrawal, and of the war crime of invading and occupying a fifth-rate country that had nothing whatsoever to do with either the bombings of 9/11 or with Al Qaida, for at least a year (how much cash was drained from our national treasury during that year?  what did we get for our money?).  Focus and divert attention.  Another mission accomplished for the Bush mafiosi.

      Hey JOHN MCCAIN, war hero: President Bush orders torture. What should US soldiers do NOW?

      by Yellow Canary on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:32:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Anbar is exploding. (0+ / 0-)

      who'da thunk?

      We don't have time for short-term thinking.

      by Compound F on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:32:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is that true? (0+ / 0-)

        I've been missing a lot of the news a few days. "Peaceful Anbar" was the last I heard.

        Sadr extended the freeze on fighting today.

        Until we break the corporate virtual monopoly on what we hear and see, we keep losing, don't matter what we do.

        by Jim P on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:47:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Now I see. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mjd in florida

          Just  today four died "northwest of Baghdad"

          The press has pretty much abandoned the phrase "Anbar Province" and always has oblique references like "northwest of".

          Until we break the corporate virtual monopoly on what we hear and see, we keep losing, don't matter what we do.

          by Jim P on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:53:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  don't believe everything you read: (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          groggy, Jim P, ibonewits

          http://www.chris-floyd.com/...

          Keeping in mind the fact that the Sunni resistance, led by al-Douri, operates from the shadows, and that its influence is exerted more indirectly than directly, there are actual al-Qaida elements in Iraq which operate independently of central Sunni control, just as there are Sunni tribal elements which freely joined the "awakening" in an effort to quash the forces of al-Qaida in Iraq. The diabolical beauty of the Sunni resistance isn’t its ability to exert direct control over all aspects of the anti-American activity in Sunni Iraq, but rather to manipulate the overall direction of activity through indirect means in a manner which achieves its overall strategic aims....2008 will see the collapse of the Sunni "awakening" movement, and a return to large-scale anti-American insurgency in western Iraq....

          That the Sunni resistance will continue to fight an American occupation is a guarantee. That it will continue to persevere is highly probable. That the United States will be able to stop it is unlikely. And so, the reality that the only policy direction worthy of consideration here in the United States concerning Iraq is the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of American forces continues to hold true. And the fact that this option is given short shrift by all capable of making or influencing such a decision guarantees that this bloody war will go on, inconclusively and incomprehensibly, for many more years. That is the one image in my crystal ball that emerges in full focus, and which will serve as the basis of defining a national nightmare for generations to come.

          This reversal of course concerning troop deployments into Iraq highlights the reality that the statistical justification of "surge success," namely the reduction in the level of violence, was illusory, a temporary lull brought about more by smoke and mirrors than any genuine change of fortune on the ground. Even the word surge is inappropriate for what is now undeniably an escalation. Iraq, far from being a nation on the rebound, remains a mortally wounded shell, the equivalent of a human suffering from a sucking chest wound, its lungs collapsed and its life blood spilling unchecked onto the ground. The "surge" never addressed the underlying reasons for Iraq’s post-Saddam suffering, and as such never sought to heal that which was killing Iraq. Instead, the "surge" offered little more than a cosmetic gesture, covering the wounds of Iraq with a bandage which shielded the true extent of the damage from outside view while doing nothing to save the victim.

          Iraq is dying; soon Iraq will be dead. True, there will be a plot of land in the Middle East which people will refer to as Iraq. But any hope of a resurrected homogeneous Iraqi nation populated by a diverse people capable of coexisting in peace and harmony is soon to be swept away forever. Any hope of a way out for the people of Iraq and their neighbors is about to become a victim of the "successes" of the "surge" and the denial of reality. The destruction of Iraq has already begun...

          We don't have time for short-term thinking.

          by Compound F on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:58:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  "no one could imagine" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        groggy, Compound F

        ...

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:55:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  "They" will argue... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dunkerque, ibonewits

      ...that since this article is about Basra, where British troops have pulled out, this should be seen as justification for staying in Iraq, ignoring that conditions for women are bad, and continually getting worse, throughout Iraq, and ignoring all of the ways we are and have been responsible for creating the current conditions.  (For example, by empowering these religious groups with our "divide and conquer" strategies, such as trying to stack the Iraqi parliament based on religious sect or militia loyalty, or by making deals with mullah's for their cooperation.)

      Social advance depends as much upon the process through which it is secured as upon the result itself. --Jane Addams

      by shock on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:56:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And Hillary has done so much for Iraqi women (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RichM

      Like voting for the IWR in 2002, and continuing to support the war, thereby insuring that WOMEN in Iraq get killed, maimed, raped, and lose their husbands, sons, daughters and other loved ones.

      See,  I suspect that for many if not most of the feminist Hillary supporters, it's only the fate of AMERICAN women and children that matter.  Iraqi women aren't even on the radar screen for such jingoistic supporters of Hillary, who blab on and on and on about how much Hillary has done for women and children.

      But even this isn't accurate, because for all the feminist Hillary supporters it is only the concerns of CAREERIST American women that count.  

      Those American women who, for example, are too poor to go to college and thus have to enlist in the army (and thus risk getting blown up or maimed in Iraq) don't matter.  Nor do the American women that have lost American husbands, sons, and daughters to this war, either through death or maiming.  Nor do  those women that have had and will have economic opportunity taken from them when their jobs or their husbands' jobs are outsourced to other countries as a result of Clinton-supported trade policies.

      But remember folks: Hillary is all about women.

      What she really is is a symbol that females can also ascend the male dominated power structure . . . and be just as successful at being murderous, greedy, self-serving, pricks as men can be.  A Hillary win is about females getting to play "King of the Mountain" too.

  •  The war was about one thing... (4+ / 0-)

    ...and one thing only:  PROFIT!

    Willard Romney stole my bike!

    by Ken in MN on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:25:09 PM PST

    •  Actually, I think even profit must (4+ / 0-)

      take a back seat to pure raw power.  I think power for the neo-cons beats money every time.
      It's the perfect aphrodesiac.
      It makes up for being small and small-minded.

      •  The plan was imperialism and the destruction of (0+ / 0-)

        the American dollar but for brute force.  Yes.  It is about power and control of all the planet under the cloak of fear, fear, fear.  There was no need for any congressional resolution authorizing Bush to invade. He had that power already just as any president has the power to preemptively strike any foe that threatens the United States.  He was wrong or lying and he needed the cover of the Congress.  But he also wanted a resolution so as to escape the provisions of the "War Powers Act": That act allows the Congress to control the curtailment of the war absent their prior approval.  According to the War Powers Act the (P)resident cannot veto any joint resolution of the Congress concerning the conduct of the war if the war was not authorized by the Congress.  In the case of Iraq the (P)resident could have invaded and did away with Saddam and WMD without the approval of the Congress and had 90 days to get the job done before the Congress, by joint resolution, could force a withdrawal (no veto).  But with prior approval the Republicans can wage a never ending war based on the veto power of the (P)resident.  And war is what keeps Republicans in power.  "Tell them they are being attacked and condemn the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and putting the nation at risk" -- Goering

        This war is about the power of the Republican Party and it is really about little else.

        "I know no safe depository for the ultimate power of society but the people themselves" -- Jefferson

        by TheTrucker on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:32:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  McCain has a 100-year plan for fixing ... (14+ / 0-)

    ...this, mcjoan. Have a little patience, for crying out loud.

    Or is it a 10,000-year plan?

    The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose. - Frederick Douglass

    by Meteor Blades on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:25:13 PM PST

  •  Saddam crushed the fundamentalists (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johninPortland

    Now people are realizing what he had to put up with.

    I'm mad as Gravel, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

    by ceti on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:25:33 PM PST

    •  If only we could have seen! (0+ / 0-)

      How could the Bush's be so blind to not see that the people of southern Iraq were the same fundy crazy types that we all love so much in Iran.  

      So, I guess our current strategy could be describes as...

      Democracy for those crazy people that are just like the people across the border that we want to toppel the Democracy of.

      •  Democratization is not a strategy (nor, truth be (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ibonewits

        ... told) a goal -- it is a sales pitch and a con job, and nothing more.

        And -- let's be clear -- there is no "our" involved.  The Bush strategy is to spend as much money as possible (Congress keeps giving this wastrel spendthrift the biggest blank checks ever written) while the killing is still good.

        "Our" strategy, I guess -- Nancy?  Harry? -- is to mortgage our grandchildren's future while sending our children to kill and be killed so Republican plutocrats can make a second 100 M each.

        Hey JOHN MCCAIN, war hero: President Bush orders torture. What should US soldiers do NOW?

        by Yellow Canary on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:39:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It begs the question - (0+ / 0-)

      Was Iraq the way it was because of Saddam?

      Or was Saddam the way he was because of Iraq?

      The Republican Creed: Pray and Pass the Ammunition

      by johninPortland on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:55:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is very sad (6+ / 0-)

    Not unexpected, but sad.

  •  from UNIFEM (6+ / 0-)

    Women have played important roles throughout Iraq's history. It was in the early years of secular Baathist socialism and early in Saddam Hussein's rule that women's status and rights were formally enshrined in legislation and treaties. In 1970, a new constitution nominally made Iraqi women and men equal under the law (although family law continued to favour men). Under Saddam Hussein, women's literacy and education improved, and restrictions on women outside the home were lifted. Women won the right to vote and to run for political office, and they could drive, work outside the home and hold jobs traditionally held by men. Before 1991, female literacy rates in Iraq were the highest in the region, Iraq had achieved nearly universal primary education for girls as well as boys, and Iraqi women were widely considered to be among the most educated and professional women in the Arab world.

    I'm mad as Gravel, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

    by ceti on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:27:15 PM PST

    •  I was driving home from work the other day (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rhutcheson, not a cent

      when I heard an NPR story about the tragic plight of so many formerly independent women in Iraq.  It brought tears to my eyes to think that simple things like driving and holding a job are now death-defying acts of courage for our sisters in Iraq.  Every day I silently beg forgiveness for what we've done to that country.

      "We *can* go back to the Dark Ages! The crust of learning and good manners and tolerance is so thin!" -- Sinclair Lewis

      by Nespolo on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:42:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  1991 hmmm (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ceti

      Something tells me Iraqi women might be very grateful to see a US Administration headed by someone not named "Bush" or "Clinton".

      I can't help thinking how much more bitter a taste it must be to have made progress then to have it all taken away.  Given that "moving backward" is the theme of US-Iraq policy, McCain with his 100 years of basings and 1000 years of glory is perfectly consistent.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:54:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Same in Afghanistan (7+ / 0-)

    Remember how Bush (and Laura) proclaimed that our invasion was going to bring freedom to women there?
    It's not working out all that great.

    Five more American deaths announced today.

    Thanks for keeping this on the front page, mcjoan.

  •  Liars lie. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    smintheus, Compound F

    Can we move on now.  The war was a lie.  The war was a crime.  A war crime.

    There is no argument with liars.  There is no common ground.  There is no good faith.  Liars lie.

    To engage liars in the field of discourse is to already lose.  Liars lie.

    Killers kill.

    Watch what they do.  Carefully.  Ignore what they say.

    Liars lie.

    Hey JOHN MCCAIN, war hero: President Bush orders torture. What should US soldiers do NOW?

    by Yellow Canary on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:28:34 PM PST

    •  Amen. No more futile engagement. (0+ / 0-)

      How many times do you get whipped?  This is ridiculous.  beyond words.

      We don't have time for short-term thinking.

      by Compound F on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:34:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  move on? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yellow Canary, Nespolo

      I included this quote in my diary on this:

      "When I came to Basra a year ago," he says, "two women were killed in front of their kids. Their blood was flowing in front of their kids, they were crying. Another woman was killed in front of her 6-year-old son, another in front of her 11-year-old child, and yet another who was pregnant."

      Maybe we can move on when these children -- and the rest of the Iraqis and world -- forgive us.  Not that they should.

      This isn't about vengeance against Bush, nor winning an argument with the liars.  This is about justice for these women and children.

      Social advance depends as much upon the process through which it is secured as upon the result itself. --Jane Addams

      by shock on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:37:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  O, I agree 100% (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shock

        I meant "move beyond" debunking the tsunami of lies with which the professional liars (getting paid by a think tank propaganda mill makes one a professional) pollute our national discourse.

        Calling war crimes "war crimes", and crimes against humanity "crimes against humanity" would be a small first step.

        "Daddy, where were you when the US committed war crimes and crimes against humanity?"

        Hey JOHN MCCAIN, war hero: President Bush orders torture. What should US soldiers do NOW?

        by Yellow Canary on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:43:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Shock and Awe? Freedom and Democracy? Liberation? (0+ / 0-)

    No, just:
    invasion, occupation and oppression
    fundamentalism and extremism
    violence and misery
    Fear and Horror
    profiteering and exploitation

    Bush and Cheney:  Mission Accomplished.

    Social advance depends as much upon the process through which it is secured as upon the result itself. --Jane Addams

    by shock on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:31:25 PM PST

  •  fucking impeach! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim P, Yellow Canary, zipn

    what is left to say?  Not a goddamned thing.

    We don't have time for short-term thinking.

    by Compound F on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:31:46 PM PST

  •  I have to go back to the beginning. (0+ / 0-)

    If democracy in the Middle East was the mission, why weren't we told that?

    Our own infrastructure is falling apart and we are spending our grandchildrens money in a country that doesn't want us there.

    What the hell are we doing there and why are we staying?

    •  hey (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      not a cent

      Hello, don't you know that Iraqi Oil is going to pay for all of this in the end.

      What I can not understand is why he stays at 30%. He has ruined everything that America stands for and he is still at 30%.

      Of course we can also blame the Congress now for sitting on their hands. They are also running out the clock knowing that there will be a Democrat in the White House this time next year.

      We vote in leadership and we get a poker game. A poker game were we all of the cards but still fold most of the time.

  •  Mission Accomplished! (0+ / 0-)

    Their real mission, that is.

    Sad.

    Proud to live in a Blue State!

    by Sister Havana on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:32:27 PM PST

    •  Still no legalized theft ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... the illegal thefts are going well, but that black gold in the ground isn't like cash or guns -- it's going to need some actual official stamps of ownership.

      Draining $1,000,000,000,000 (that's a million millions) from our shared national savings account was a fun side-line, though.

      Hey JOHN MCCAIN, war hero: President Bush orders torture. What should US soldiers do NOW?

      by Yellow Canary on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:47:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  so many layers in this onion (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcjoan, dewley notid, not a cent

    each one rotten.

    an important, angering issue. absolutely ripe for a fp post. thanks, mcjoan.

    Time for Miles to soothe me again, because jazz is the antibush. --zic

    by homo neurotic on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:33:34 PM PST

  •  Bush makes Saddam look like Willy Wonka. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Compound F, John2Luke

    The Bush Administration: One historic step forward, 1000 leaps backward.

    Neocon fuckers.

  •  Remember RAWA before Afghanistan-- (0+ / 0-)

    the women who had smuggled film of the Taliban's execution of women in the sports stadium? They were on all the time on all the channels. Remember our noble urge to  protect the women of Afghanistan?

    Here's what the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan [RAWA http://www.rawa.org/...
    ] had to say on Dec 10, '07:

    The US and Her Fundamentalist Stooges are
    the Main Human Rights Violators in Afghanistan

    The US and her allies tried to legitimize their military occupation of Afghanistan under the banner of "bringing freedom and democracy for Afghan people". But as we have experienced in the past three decades, in regard to the fate of our people, the US government first of all considers her own political and economic interests and has empowered and equipped the most traitorous, anti-democratic, misogynist and corrupt fundamentalist gangs in Afghanistan.

    Human rights violations are widespread across Afghanistan

    In the past few years, for a thousand times the lies of US claims in the so-called "War on terror" were uncovered. By relying on the criminal bands of the Northern Alliance, the US made a game of values like democracy, human rights, women's rights etc. thus disgracing our mournful nation. The US created a government from those people responsible for massacres in Pul-e-Charkhi, Dasht-e-Chamtala, Kapisa, Karala, Dasht-e-Lieli, 65,000 Kabulis and tens of mass graves across the country. Now the US tries to include infamous killers like Mullah Omer and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar into the government, which will be another big hypocrisy in the "war against terror".

    The reinstatement of the Northern Alliance to power crushed the hopes of our people ...

    Until we break the corporate virtual monopoly on what we hear and see, we keep losing, don't matter what we do.

    by Jim P on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:43:33 PM PST

  •  If I wasn't agnostic... (0+ / 0-)

    ....I'd say I hope BushCo Rove Chaney and the entire currupt mess of MoFos would all ROT IN HELL for what they've do to IRAQ as well as to this country and to our kid's and their kids too who'll still be paying for this F UP for years to come.

  •  Remember Afghanistan... (0+ / 0-)

    as well.  After removing the Taliban/al Quida all women were supposedly free to remove their blue burquahs, only we saw more of them...

  •  Bush managed to absolutely screw this one up (0+ / 0-)

    A great opportunity born from a terrible lie, and Bush has probably managed to alienate the Middle East and Iraqis more than when he started.

    So much for having a friendly, Democratic Muslim state that could start opening the door to sunshine and happiness. Instead, the toilet has overflowed, and Bush's shit is all over the floor.

    I once watched a documentary about Iraqi women who burn themselves to kill themselves in order to get away from the society around them.

    It was made after we were welcomed as glorious saviors.

    "Without alienation, there can be no politics" ~ Arthur Miller

    by jwalker13 on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:45:46 PM PST

    •  "managed" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      not a cent, jwalker13

      he didn't merely manage to screw everything up, he succeeded royally in screwing everything up.  It was a masterpiece of screwing things up and doing the absolute wrong thing at every turn, making the absolute wrong decision at every option.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:00:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Profit is the only motive (0+ / 0-)

    May they all burn in hell.

    Molly Ivins wanted WHO for President?

    by Positronicus on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:51:48 PM PST

  •  Not much new here (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    invisiblewoman, John2Luke

    Bush sucks. We know that.   The war is a misbegotten mess.  We know that. But Bush will be gone in a matter of months.    Since McCain is just an extension of Bush,  what would   Obama  or Clinton  do to  help women  suffering under the misogyny of islam?   And why is NOW so silent on this issue?

    •  NOW is not silent on this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      invisiblewoman

      But there is an effort out there to portray the Western feminists are soft on this issue, which is completely false.

      I'm mad as Gravel, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

      by ceti on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:58:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  McCain extension of Bush? (0+ / 0-)

      I wonder, actually, if this is true.  Bush's reasoning and motivation on Iraq isn't the same as McCain's even if they do tend to agree on what short term "steps" need to be made.  McCain strikes me as a throwback to the old-school hawks, and I'm guessing he tends to see Iraq through eyes glazed over by Vietnam and his own experiences there.  He's one of those "liberals lost us the war" guys.  Bush had corporate global domination on the brain, no politics whatsoever. Its part of the reason they always got the politics so wrong, the underlying engine was more corporate-oriented. Both are dangerous and both will travel similar paths on short trips through history, but which of those is most dangerous, I dunno?  McCain actually scares me more than Bush, because his motivation really is deeply ideological rather than simply class-interested.  But I could be wrong.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:05:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  A Solution originating in the West (0+ / 0-)

      will only go so far. We can provide support, but true women's liberation is going to have to come from within the middle east.

      Anything instigated from a western country will immediately be viewed with suspicion.

      The Republican Creed: Pray and Pass the Ammunition

      by johninPortland on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:36:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Curious about one thing... (0+ / 0-)

    Did it make any difference when the British pulled out?

    Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

    by dinotrac on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:56:36 PM PST

    •  differences... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      invisiblewoman

      The CNN article which she's quoting claims it did.

      (But, imo, that's something like lighting the fuse of an M80, holding onto it for couple of seconds, throwing it at the last minute, and then asking if throwing it made a difference to how loud it sounded.)

      Social advance depends as much upon the process through which it is secured as upon the result itself. --Jane Addams

      by shock on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:08:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Same Result (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rhutcheson

      That's what I think when I hear McCain or the talking heads say the surge is working.

      Well, isn't violence also down in the South after British withdrawl? So, it would appear fewer troops bring the same result a more, provided of course, your town has already been ethnically cleansed.

      Oderint Dum Metuant.

      by Dunkerque on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:11:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Pre-War Iraq, 40% University grads were women (7+ / 0-)

    70% of elementary school teachers were women
    58% of secondary school teachers were women
    27% of university-teaching faculties were women

    And here's what the 1998 Country Report for the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women has to say:

    It is difficult to speak of the country's implementation of the Convention in isolation from the circumstances in which that country finds itself. As is well known, an embargo was imposed on Iraq eight years ago, and the country continues to be the object of heinous crimes that have affected all segments of the society, including women. Many reports, emanating from impartial international humanitarian societies, have indicated the magnitude of the impact of the embargo has had on all classes of the Iraqi people. Many have characterized it as genocide, which has been outlawed by a whole range of international covenants including, merely by way of example, the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

    I'm mad as Gravel, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

    by ceti on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:57:25 PM PST

  •  All those years, we did nothing in Afghanistan (4+ / 0-)

    When women were kept prisoners in their homes, the US government did nothing. When they were denied their right to an education and the ability to feed their families, we did nothing. When they were publicly executed for acts as simple as leaving their homes without a male relative, we did nothing.

    Mavis Leno, Jay Leno's wife, did more to try and help Afghani women than the entire US government, including the White House and Congress. Republicans and Democrats, and multiple administrations, are culpable, because they did nothing.

    I hoped that the Afghani women at least would gain some benefit from our war there. That seems less likely as time goes by, and now we have the women of Iraq facing similar conditions.

    Not a Cent to those who won't fight torture.

    by not a cent on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:57:37 PM PST

    •  America created the mess in the first place (3+ / 0-)

      And then left Afghanistan to rot. They refused to help stabilize the situation after the Soviet pull out. Benazir Bhutto then promoted the Taliban as the force to bring stability. Go figure.

      I'm mad as Gravel, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

      by ceti on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:00:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        invisiblewoman

        And, quite frankly, that is my concern with Iraq. I want us out of there now, I thought from the beginning it was an absolute mistake.

        That being said, do we not have a moral responsibility to try and correct the horrendous situation we have created? And is there any way we can even do so?  

        Short of a time machine, it is difficult to see any way to rectify the harm we have done.

        Not a Cent to those who won't fight torture.

        by not a cent on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:08:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  This will be ugly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          not a cent

          How to do it without a strong central state -- i.e., the same thing that was thrown out the window in 2003? Even now they are trying to recruit back Baathists, but it seems like almost too late. The brightest have already left the country.

          I'm mad as Gravel, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

          by ceti on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:15:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  "moral responsibility" arguments... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rhutcheson

          ...helped get us into this in the first place.  (In addition to the WMD scare tactics, my parents, for example, believed that we had a moral obligation to "protect" the people in Iraq from the evil dictator that was Saddam, protect the Shia and Kurds, etc.  After all, Saddam was "another Hitler!!!")

          I do believe we have a moral responsibility to pay reparations (lots!), to help rebuild the country, to shield the country from war/disaster profiteers and pillagers, etc.  But none of this is the job of the military.  We have a moral obligation to get them out of there now.  They are not making things better, and not coincidentally, and more importantly, they are not wanted there by the Iraqi people themselves (by an overwhelming majority).

          Social advance depends as much upon the process through which it is secured as upon the result itself. --Jane Addams

          by shock on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:26:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't disagree with you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shock

            There are no easy solutions, but we have to figure out how we can right our wrongs as much as is possible. And we have to figure out how not to compound the damage we have done by leaving a power vaccuum that will be filled by religious fanatics and/or warring factions.

            Not a Cent to those who won't fight torture.

            by not a cent on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:38:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Actually it's worse than that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rhutcheson, not a cent

      Because there was a period when women enjoyed significant rights. That was under the Communist government which Jimmy Carter and Zbigniew Brzinski and Ronald Reagan happily overthrew with "the moral equivalent of our founding fathers." By, you know, funding Osama bin somebody. Oh yeah, Osama bin forgotten.

      Eli Stephens
      Left I on the News

      "Philosophers only interpret the world, the point remains to change it." - Karl Marx

      by elishastephens on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 10:08:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It was the false doctrine of (0+ / 0-)

        the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Yet another short-sighted foreign policy by the US. We do it again and again, in Central America and the Middle East among other regions.

        It is indisputable that we funded and armed the Taliban. Much like we have funded and armed some of the militias in Iraq.

        The more things change, the more they remain the same. It is dismal.

        Not a Cent to those who won't fight torture.

        by not a cent on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 10:49:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Purple Prints (0+ / 0-)

    Eh...in the immortal words of Mr. Rumsfeld, "Democracy of messy".

    PS Anyone else wonder what PsyOps cog came up with the "Anbar Awakening" slogan? Although I find some "Sahawah Al Anbar" references, almost all links or quotes are from US Military spokesmen in Iraq or from the right wing echo chamber.

    Oderint Dum Metuant.

    by Dunkerque on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:06:44 PM PST

  •  US might be in Iraq for a long time (0+ / 0-)

    The British remained in control of Iraq until 1958 (overthrow of hashemite king/puppet), after first conquering and creating it in 1918. They also faced a revolt in 1920 where they used airplanes to strafe villages as well as herd people into concentration camps. They also used white phosphorus bombs on the Kurds, so were the first ones to introduce chemical weapons in Iraq.

    Regardless, the timeline of 40 years and more is not too far fetched.

    I'm mad as Gravel, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

    by ceti on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:10:08 PM PST

  •  But Mesopotamia (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ibonewits

    was the last significant conquest of the British as well as Roman Empires. After that, the sun began setting on both. For the Brits, only four years later the Irish fought them to a standstill enough for partial independence. The fall of the Roman empire would take a lot longer, but Mesopotamia as the marker of the maximum extent of the empire would only be held for a few years by Trajan.

    I'm mad as Gravel, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

    by ceti on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:13:16 PM PST

  •  Taxi to the Dark side (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux

    Human Rights abuses and torture in Afghanistan and Iraq

    http://www.taxitothedarkside.com/

    Bill Moyers Journal will discuss tonite

    I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

    by valadon on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:13:25 PM PST

  •  Thank you for writing about the plight (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, rhutcheson, invisiblewoman

    of Iraqi women.  This is much appreciated by me.

    This is, and always has been, an evil war.

  •  what is sickening is that bush will get away (3+ / 0-)

    with what he has done. our own society is so deformed and degenerate that his crimes are treated with a ho-hum response as we worry about our credit ratings...

    •  teh awesome! (0+ / 0-)

      everything is working as planned.

      We don't have time for short-term thinking.

      by Compound F on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:18:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's what kills me (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ibonewits, rhutcheson, invisiblewoman

      Any other leader of a country that had initiated an unprovoked and illegal war, who had condoned torture, who was actively engaged in spying on his own citizens - our country would be clamoring for justice.

      Because Bush is one of our own, we overlook it.

      The Republican Creed: Pray and Pass the Ammunition

      by johninPortland on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:48:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's because we're the Good Guys! (0+ / 0-)

        Christian Dualism gives the average American no choice. We must identify our side as 100% Good and all others as 100% Evil.

        Even the worst of crimes can be forgiven if done in the name of the Forces of Good™. We've seen that throughout our history.

        First, oversight; second, investigations; third, impeachments; fourth, war crimes trials!

        by ibonewits on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:57:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  i am not sure if it is just because he is one of (0+ / 0-)

        our own. i think it is deeper than that. nixon, reagan, the increasing ability for each of us to get information from various sources...all this led to our being able to see the wizard behind the curtain...but seeing the wizard didn't empower us ( or we didn't empower ourselves ) to replace the wizard with a real leader whose concern was for the welfare of future generations...instead the wizard keeps babbling and killing and wasting our time on earth and no one seems to have a clue as to how to hold the wizard accountable and how to bring justice to our country.

  •  McCain has promised another 100 years of the same (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    invisiblewoman
  •  Bush will declare marshall law when... (0+ / 0-)

    ...the anger boils over and and people resist his hamfisted and tortured logic.  He's already stacked the Judiciary with %30 of his own appointments.  He's getting away with torture, murder, war crimes. He can get away with declaring marshall law.  He just needs to construct a Gulf of Tonkin, or, a 9/11 -type rational and people will acquiesce.  Hitler and Mussolini came to power with the aid of their democratically elected congress...

  •  LIEraq? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rhutcheson

    I know that 'Islamofascism' is just something that neoconservatives made up, but after they made it up did they install it in Iraq?  
    Maybe that's why more troops can't come home, because when they do Bush, McCain, Petraeus, et al know Iraq will implode.
    McCain will lose any chance at the Presidency, Petraeus will lose his job and his credibility, and Congress will lose more Republicans, etceteras.

    This time it's personal.

    by apostrophe on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:48:38 PM PST

  •  This kind of behavior will stop ... (0+ / 0-)

    ... when Islamic women start organizing secret Amazon sisterhoods, wearing machine pistols under their chadors, and using them on their would-be killers.

    Nothing else will stop fundamentalist Islamic men from their violence against women and children. Westerners can't do it, we've only made matters worse. Pacifism and enlightened thinking won't do it, they've only made more victims.

    I think the only reason there isn't a similar level of violence by fundamentalist Christians and Jews against their women and children is the wide availability of guns in the US and the existence of a feminist movement that tells women they don't have to be doormats and that has created some legal protections for them. Yes, those guns get used by the men, but they also get used by women often enough to convince all but the craziest that there are limits that must be obeyed.

    In the backward parts of the Islamic world there are no limits on socially and legally acceptable violence against women. Until "their" women start fighting back on the same level of violence, nothing will change.

    First, oversight; second, investigations; third, impeachments; fourth, war crimes trials!

    by ibonewits on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:54:51 PM PST

  •  CNN International is covering this (0+ / 0-)

    I watched the package until they started showing morgue photos of the women.

    Are they showing this on CNN America?

    Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

    by Zwoof on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 09:24:45 PM PST

  •  Democracy has never been part (0+ / 0-)

    of nazi/republican control.  However democracy and Jesus are a cloak they always use. Since the republican propaganda machine the WMD’s War Mongering Dirtbags ,.aka MSM refuse to report the vile crimes this anti-American administration commits;  I would suggest that American women had better start wearing headscarf’s too, who knows what they will do next.

    We will never forget the crimes and atrocities committed by the Bush administration!

    by Freedom Loving American on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 09:46:53 PM PST

  •  And there there are the gays (0+ / 0-)

    400 murdered since the "liberation" of Iraq.

    Eli Stephens
    Left I on the News

    "Philosophers only interpret the world, the point remains to change it." - Karl Marx

    by elishastephens on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 10:04:06 PM PST

  •  McCain is just McBush (0+ / 0-)

    McCain would do it because it's 'right' ("the right thing to do") whereas Bush does it because it's 'wrong'.
    These are slightly different versions of the same unhappiness; it explains their 'love hate' relationship; it explains why McCain panders to CPAC; it explains Bush's backhanded endorsement of McCain.

    This time it's personal.

    by apostrophe on Sat Feb 09, 2008 at 01:46:39 AM PST

  •  McCush .. Bush with a Tush HA! (nt) (0+ / 0-)

    This time it's personal.

    by apostrophe on Sat Feb 09, 2008 at 02:45:40 AM PST

  •  cheny bush war (0+ / 0-)

    It is a mistake to even consider the War in Iraq as a quest for freedom for anyone especially women.  The war is about oil and access to oil not freedom. Freedom is a cheney bush headfake and nothing more.

    go raibh maith agat

    by jersy on Sat Feb 09, 2008 at 07:44:17 AM PST

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