Daily Kos

Mom says she might vote McCain

Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:33:18 PM PDT

it's what she said on Tuesday evening when I picked her up after work to take her shopping.

I was, literally, struck dumb.  If you knew me, you would be astounded.

What the hell could I say?  This is 67 year-old white woman, born and bred in the lower class in SW Washington.  She comes from a long line of alcholic musicians and rednecks.  She still talks about the 'cuteness' of the rearend of the Chairman of the DNC, for whom she tirelessly worked as a personal champion, attempting to convert every single person she met, from the time of the Summer Tour events of 2003 right up to the manufactured 'scream' imbroglio, into a Howard Dean for Life club member.

A life-long Democrat, never, ever, ever talked about voting Republican in my entire frickin' life, not even for dog catcher.  Until this week.

When I finally regained the ability to speak, which consisted of rolling my tongue back up and shaking my head like a beagle on the beach on a brisk spring morning, I asked her if she could tell me why that might be.

I asked her, in a slightly-shell-shocked tone, "well, Mom, uh.... what would make you do that... I mean, what's wrong with Obama? (here is where I disclose my own recent choice, made under protest after Edwards 'suspended' his campaign)

She says nothing for a bit, which was really only about 10 or 20 seconds, but at the time felt like about three weeks.  Then I ask her, with great trepidation, "Do you have a problem with Obama being a black man?"

Keeping in mind that during the 1960's growing up in my hometown meant that in my high school graduating class of about 550 there were less than five black students.  Do the math.  

There was rampant racism, mostly contained to private conversations, because during that time, everyone, even grade school kids, knew that there was a particular part of Portland (Oregon, across the mighty Columbia River, south of SW Washington) where almost all of the black people lived.  This 'segregation' seemed odd to me even then, but was simply accepted as the normal state of affairs by everyone that I can remember.

So this is the cauldron that stewed up the society in which my mother, and subsequently myself, were raised in.  Even today she often says 'negro' instead of 'black'.  I have often wondered just how much prejudice might still live in her heart, but never had the nerve or the inclination to actually speak up and ask her.

But this moment called me to ask the question.  The length of time it took her to respond colors my belief that it was her honest feelings.  She only said, softly and with a brief stutter, "I don't know, I mean, I'm not sure, but I don't trust him."

When I asked her what about Obama made her feel that way, she could only repeat her response saying "I just don't know what it is, I just don't trust him".

Then, with venom, she baldly stated that she could not, would not, vote for Hillary.  Ever.   And just the other day she was again defending Bill CLinton.  (By the by, she always says Bill Clinton and she always says Hillary, I wonder if there is any psychological component to that little quirk?)

So.  Is my mom a lone clone?  Are there any other blue collar stories, of crazy old democrats, who are getting skittish about the black man and woman candidates left in the race, out there waiting to be told?

I'll be happy to take suggestions on how to change her mind, but I have to tell you, I already tried this one:

Wait a minute, have you forgotten about the past 7 years?  Hey, even I admire John McCain personally, I mean shit, he spent frickin years in a North Vietnamese prison camp, tortured and lost for half a bloody decade.  But come on, have you listened to him over the past six months?  He has his head so far up G.W. Bush's ass he may never see daylight again.

Imagine another four years, or worse yet, another eight fucking years of Republican rule?  How much farther can they break down our damn country, Mom?  How could you?  How could you even think about it?

By this time, I was breathing hard, I mean, I was actually worked up.  I nearly broke out in frothing at the mouth.  Seriously.  Well, maybe not really frothing, more like dribbling, but that's beside the point.

At this point she did seem somewhat mollified, and said she'd have to 'think about this more', but you know, there isn't much more time.  The WA State Caucus is this Saturday, February 9th at 1:00 pm.  

If you are a Washingtonian, and a democrat, of course, click HERE to find out where you should go to caucus.

Please read the information on the caucus if you've never gone.  Please.  It's not rocket science.  Show up, sign in, declare you are a Democrat, group up, elect a Caucus Captain, talk about the candidates, vote.  Those candidates who don't get 15% of the table's votes are out and there is a new round of voting.  Anyone can change their mind during any round of voting and pick any candidate, even one they discarded during an earlier vote.  Voting is over when all candidates chosen have received at least 15% of the table's votes.  Go home.

If you have any thoughts or ideas on how to re-convert my mom back into a vociferous, stalwart champion of whomever turns out to be the Democratic nominee, I beg you, commence commenting.

Tags: Washington State, Caucuses, John Edwards, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Election, 2008 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 99 comments

  •  McCain will get about 10%+ of Clinton supporters (3+ / 1-)

    Recommended by:
    Alice in Florida, dconrad, Liberal Pride
    Hidden by:
    lordkelvin

    and a sizable chunk of the Hispanic vote that he would not otherwise get if Clinton was our nominee.

    So let's say an extra 15% total, enough to win easily in November.  And he will win if it's vs Obama.  Let there be no doubt.

    •  Don't piss on my leg (11+ / 0-)

      and tell me that it is raining.

      Most people will vote for McCain over Hillary but would vote for Obama over McCain and I have the poll numbers!

      John W. McCain, Bush's third term.

      by aaraujo on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:40:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As a Clinton supporter, I call BS (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dangangry, bunk, Ken in MN, desert red

      on that. None of us know how the vote will go in November, let alone have the ability to predict what percent of what group will vote for some candidate (other than that Republicans will vote for McCain).

      That said, those who are certain that Obama will draw lots of redneck votes are equally full of it...we just don't know, but it is likely that many of the conservatives who say they support Obama now will change their minds when they find out he really is a (*gasp*) liberal.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:43:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  None of us know? (0+ / 0-)

        Then how do you justify calling my opinion BS?  Be consistent.

        I am telling you all -- better wake up.  Hispanic vote will be critical and we can get the best of both worlds by running a Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton ticket.  McCain will get a sizable chunk of it otherwise.  Please heed this warning Democrats!

      •  That might be true with some conservatives . . . (0+ / 0-)

        although the handful who are crossing over are not doing so blindly.  Many say, in spite of his liberal leanings, his ability to work across party lines and his message are the right one.

        As far as the 60-30% margins with independents in a Democratic primary, these voters aren't going anywhere.  In fact there is about 10% of the independent vote still in play and Obama more so than Clinton will be able to make a play for it in November.

    •  In California for example . . . (0+ / 0-)

      McCain might win some of the Hispanic vote, but it will come at the expense of Republican votes in SoCal.  McCain loses California.

      McCain couldn't even crack 50% in his homestate Arizona.  That's a statement as well.

      The losses that Obama has with hard core Clinton supporters are made up for by the 60-30% margins he gets with independents in swing states and the 5-10% margins he gets from GOP votes in swing states.

      There are no sure-things in November, but Obama brings an upside that Clinton does not have.  This is why statewide figures from potential swing states from Arizona, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska to Virginia have put their energy behind Obama's candidacy.

      •  Ok now think about Florida. (0+ / 0-)

        McCain will win Florida vs Obama, imo.

        •  That might be true . . . (0+ / 0-)

          But McCain is vulnerable in areas that normally tilt into the Republican column -- Virginia, North Carolina, Missouri, Iowa, Kansas (if Sebelius is ont the ticket), North Dakota, South Dakota, and perhaps even Arizona and New Mexico where McCain's position on immigration loses him as many votes as he gains.  The down-ticket effect too in terms of congressional races is another consideration here.  Obama offers an insurance policy in terms of down ticket gains -- even in the event of a November loss -- that Clinton does not.

          I look at Clinton's internals with Republicans and independents and see no room for error.  I also see no benefit to party nominees down ticket.

    •  So will Rossi for Gov. (0+ / 0-)

      The "Gov" just endorsed Obama. She will likely lose to Rossi, considering that a portion of the pro-Hillary vote will go elsewhere, perhaps McCain-Rossi. The Gov. should have stayed nuetral... however, I won't vote for her. She just lost my vote.

    •  That's bullshit (0+ / 0-)

      and not supported by the polls.  Hillary gets decimated among independents in every match up with McCain.

      According to Hillary, "lobbyists are people, too."

      by Prince Georges for Obama on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:54:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I will report anyone troll rating this (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dconrad

      You Obama supporters need to do some introspection at how you're overreacting to dissenting opinions.

      I am a longstanding member of this community and have contributed to many substantive discussions.  Let's be respectful.

    •  Uprated to counteract Hide abuse (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      diplomatic

      Blatant and shameful abuse on the part of lordkelvin.

      Feed the babies who don't have enough to eat / Shoe the children with no shoes on their feet / House the people living in the street / Oh, there's a solution

      by dconrad on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:51:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Remind your mom of where McCain would send (7+ / 0-)

    her grandchildren (and their grandchildren) for the next 100 years if she gave him the chance.

    major combat operations have ended in iraq the 2008 democratic primary. (05/06/08)

    by haruki on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:36:41 PM PDT

  •  McCain is dangerous no matter who is the (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    stephdray, jxg, diplomatic, mijita, dangangry

    Democratic nominee.
    The overconfidence of the Obamacans that Obama will easily beat McCain is troubling.

    •  I would agree . . . (0+ / 0-)

      that anyone saying McCain loses to Obama simply by virtue of Obama's winning the nomination are being blind.

      I would also say that any Clintonites who claim that Clinton's internals are a better match-up against McCain in November are even more delusional.

      •  More delusional? Honestly, I think Hillary (0+ / 0-)

        is the one who can win more Republican votes. She has a record of winning them in NY already.

        •  New York Republicans . . . (0+ / 0-)

          are not typical of the kind of Republicans that you find in the rest of the U.S. (e.g. NY Republicans tend to be fiscally conservative, and generally socially moderate).  New York Republicans are typical of the kind of Republicans that you find in the northeast.

          Just look at the buzz saw that a Republican like Guiliani walked into when he went to a place like Iowa.  He couldn't even crack 10% -- and this is in a place where he invested a lot of money and energy in advance of December.  He walked away from South Carolina and focused his attention on Florida where there is a sizeable community of NY transplants.  Northern Florida is more representative of the kind of Republicans that you'll find in the southeast -- central and especially south Florida not so much so.

          It's interesting too that in states as different as Connecticut, Missouri, and California Obama won the independent vote 2 to 1 versus Clinton (60/30%).  

          This is consistent with nationally polling which shows Clinton's favorable/unfavorable amongst independents at 46/47 while Obama's numbers are 62/27.  Clinton made inroads with Massachussets independents at a 50/40 clip.  Once again though, the Northeast is typical of the Northeast, not the nation as a whole.  There is a reason that Clinton ran for statewide election in a place like New York and not in a place like Missouri.

  •  Send her over to the Rude One: (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    theran

    I want my Two Dollars!

    by Ken in MN on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:38:02 PM PDT

  •  Another reason to get a nominee in March (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Angie in WA State

    rather than August....keep wayward independents from committing to McCain.

    You know, I've seen this reaction to Hillary Clinton before and I've never entirely understood it.  Mostly from some older folks.

    NetrootNews coming soon!

    by ksh01 on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:39:59 PM PDT

  •  I have people at work (5+ / 0-)

    some of them single mothers, many living paycheck to paycheck, only keeping their job sometimes due to the healthcare they recieve, and they refuse to vote for one of the Democrats.

    Why?  Because it goes against their morals.  They've bought the email that says Obama is a covert radical Muslim, and won't vote for a non-Christian (no matter how many times I say that thing's a lie) and God forbid women be allowed to have an abortion or those homosexuals get married.  It blows my mind at times, but they are people that are more focused with the present than what the past brought and what the future holds.

    Easy is right. ~Chuang Tzu

    by Anjana on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:41:45 PM PDT

  •  All those people who were (0+ / 0-)

    "Democrat for a day" to vote for Obama may have been literally that, and will vote for McCain in November.
    If McCain is the nominee, I think the best shot will be to get REPUBLICAN votes, rather than independent.
    Either nominee will bleed a fair number of Democratic voters, and will have a tough time winning the independent vote.

    •  I think there have been a few polls (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Hornito

      showing that Obama does better against McCain because he wins Independents.

      •  It's bizarre how much people are quoting polls (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Alice in Florida

        after everything we've seen this election cycle from Zogby, etc.

        Even I have quoted some but almost just to jynx the result!

        •  Any poll now is useless (0+ / 0-)

          Everything will be different in a few months...some portion (don't know how much) of Obama's current support is doubtless due to people who don't know anything about him except that he's new and different. Once they find out he's a liberal (or whatever thing they don't like), some of them will ditch him.

          "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

          by Alice in Florida on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:12:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Overconfidence is always a bad thing. (0+ / 0-)

      That's why I confine myself to cautiously noting that most polls show her losing to McCain, but Obama beating McCain.

      Cautious.  Analysis.  Of the Data.

      Carefully weighing it up.

      Adding it to the list of other relevent factors.

      Judiciously making my choice.

      Ooooooooooooooooooooooobama!  ;-)

      Obama 47 McCain 43 ...or... Clinton 42 McCain 49

      by BleedingKnuckleLiberal on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:49:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My mother said she wouldn't mind (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Angie in WA State

    if McCain got elected.  Fortunately, she likes Hillary and I think she has had enough of Republicans, so she wouldn't vote for him.  She says she does like him, though (she's over 80 - do you think that it's an age thing?).

  •  I'm sure there are mom's all over the US (0+ / 0-)

    who have similar things going through their heads.  And dads, too.  There's simply no excuse for the primary numbers in CA and Mass., if "race" did not enter into the equation.  It's a very weird thing to see in people who should otherwise know better, but a phenomena that will have to be faced in the event of an Obama candidacy.  

    •  Obama apparently won whites (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Hornito

      in California.  It was among Asians and Latinos that he got shellacked.

      The Clintons are corrupt selfish race baiting zero character scumbags. I'd rather be run over by a tractor-trailer than willfully vote for any Clinton again.

      by IhateBush on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:17:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hate to quote Fox News, but they said it (0+ / 0-)

    McCain is the candidate of "more wars, less jobs" (or maybe it was "less jobs, more wars"?). McCain is a serious warmonger, always has been. And he's no friend of working people--he is, despite what Rush says, a true conservative Republican.

    "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

    by Alice in Florida on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:48:19 PM PDT

  •  which (D) issue is important to her? (0+ / 0-)

    Go here and find out how he voted on that. It will probably not be in line with what she wants for her country.

    Maybe remind her that he is the man who joked, "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Her father is Janet Reno."

  •  AIII....CHICK VS. MINORITY!!! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dconrad

    Try being both- a chick and a minority. It is quite the ride.

    Both are fine, fine candidates who happen to be either a black male or a white female. But prejudices are prejudices. Maybe you can ask your mum to please not vote this election season? Because I don't think people can get over their biases in such a short time.

    Or if she is willing, take her to candidate rallies. When she sees them in person, hears them in person, and sees the diversity of support they have, she may have cause to rethink.

  •  Let them speak for themselves. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dconrad

    First, let your mother speak for herself.  Let her unload all her fears and whatever bile she has against them both.  

    Second, let Hillary and Obama speak for themselves, particularly at and just after the Convention.  They are both very good, persuasive speakers.  

    Beyond that, you probbly know better than anyone else how to convince your mother.

    And, finally, the caucus is an excellent opportunity to let her vote for the lesser of two evils, as she see them.  Certainly there will people of her peer group (whatever it is) who love Hillary and Obama and have the gift of gab.  

    Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

    by Yamaneko2 on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:53:17 PM PDT

    •  I called her after work tonight to ask if she is (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dconrad

      going to the Caucus.

      She said, "What's the point?  I want to vote for John Edwards, and he's out of it."

      I told her that I can't see any version of the universe where John Edwards could be the nominee - her response was, what about at the convention?

      Sadly, suspending his campaign before Super Tuesday leaves John with (as I recall) 26 delegates.

      Not even a snowball's chance in hell of being the nominee.

      She's a tough nut.  I just hope that she's a rare tough nut, and not a common variety nut!  Too many like mom, and McCain might have a chance to win in November and then I'd have to stick my head in the sand for four years.

  •  People like your mom (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dconrad

    just don't know McCain. As to her opinion of Obama and Clinton...it seems a little odd that she's so fond of Bill but hates Hillary, unless she has some weird crush thing going on. But I suspect that she is attracted to McCain because he's familiar, and seems like a nice guy. The only remedy is somehow getting her (and others) to understand that McCain is not the "moderate" he they believe him to be, and furthermore he never has been. He only looked that way compared to Mr. Worst President Ever.

    "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

    by Alice in Florida on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 06:54:10 PM PDT

  •  Well, you don't really have (2+ / 0-)

    to turn her by tomorrow, since it's just the caucus.  If she wants to go caucus with the Republicans or sit it out it doesn't really matter.  You have until Nov. to try to get her to consider what really is informing her mistrust of Barack and apparent unwillingness to even consider Hillary.

    Sometimes the best thing is for parent to really get a glimpse of themselves through their child's eyes and that gets them introspecting like nothing else will.  You may not have to say anything.  Maybe if you just leave the door open, she will come around or share more information with you.  There is probably not much you can do to force the issue.

  •  this just illustrates (3+ / 0-)

    that Obama can not take any vote for granted. he's demonstrated he can get people involved, volunteering, donating, and voting who weren't before. but there are people on both sides resistant to change. they tend to be older, and McCain could do well with them, or they could just not come out. that is bad. We need to take NO vote for granted. there are so many young people i know who are now interested in voting, but aren't yet registered. there will be a lot of Older folks who just don't get. we need to make them get it.

    ...and some marched, and some sat-in, and some were beaten, and some went to jail, and some died for freedom's cause. That's what hope is. -Barack Obama

    by phukhotfashion on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:03:11 PM PDT

  •  Stop Frothing... (4+ / 0-)

    First of all, you'll never convince her to vote for Obama if you're FROTHING!

    Second of all, people have to come to political candidates in their own time. If she's not ready to trust Obama, can you force it? No.

    You have to give her the space to choose her candidate based on her own real judgment don't you? Do you want her telling YOU you have to vote for McCain?! Of course not.

    Tell her you're sure she'll make the right choice for her. Let it go. Tell her you trust Obama and you're going to vote for him, but that she has to decide on her own.

    Then let her be.

    "One good test as to whether folks are doing interesting work is, Can they surprise me? And..when I read Daily Kos, it doesn't surprise me...." ~~Barack Obama

    by SignalSuzie on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:05:52 PM PDT

  •  Both my father and my mother in law have made (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Angie in WA State, tmo, kkjohnson

    similar comments about McCain.  And what do you think they both have in common?  We've accused them both at times in the past of being racist.  I've also heard a code word: muslim.  No-one wants to be accused of being a bigot, so instead of admitting they don't like Obama because he's black, they say they don't trust him because he's muslim (even though he's not)...but what I heard the other day from my husband's partner - a 78 year old man - was "did you know that if you're born to a muslim father, you're a muslim for life?".  I retorted with "well maybe that'll help us find a way to get along with the one billion muslims in the world before we blow each other up!"  But at least my father would vote for Hillary, but mom-in-law hates her, even though she's been a lifelong democrat.  Why?  because of her attempts to get a universal health care plan.  I've tried to talk to my father about that...do you know how much having a good healthcare plan would help your children?  That was something he seemed willing to listen to.

  •  many people buy the independent/maverick bs (0+ / 0-)

    and he's getting lots of antiwar people even tho he's totally pro-war.

    the media image of him has been set in stone for ages now, and that overrides his actual record, sadly.

    And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

    by amberglow on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:13:14 PM PDT

  •  On NPR's 'Talk of the Nation' (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Angie in WA State

    Someone called up and said that he and his friends had decided to vote for Hillary. They had just decided that for "a number of reasons," they couldn't vote for Obama. When pressed, he said that one of the reasons was that he didn't seem to have substantive policies (now a policy of mine to link to that page whenever the topic comes up). But then he said that another issue was "race. You don't like to admit it, but it's there." This sounded like a younger guy with a heavy southern accent. I wonder if this will be an issue courting older voters, though? My grandfather, for example. For Christmas, our family was playing Taboo. I was supposed to guess the word grandpa was describing. The first clue he gave was "Mammy." I went cold. "In a rocking chair. On the porch." I tentatively suggested, "Plantation?" There were so many other answers I wanted to suggest, but I wasn't going to yell at grandpa. If he wasn't among the dying-off generation I would have bothered.

    McCain = Iran War.
    McCain: Graduated 894th in his class ... of 899.

    by Michael D on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:33:03 PM PDT

  •  I have a friend whose mother.... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Angie in WA State

    ....called her after Obama's Iowa win and screamed into the phone, "We have to stop him! If he wins the Black people will make us their slaves!!!"  This woman is also a lifelong Democrat, but unlike you mother she is supporting HRC.  It's sad that people would let fear overrule their common sense, but racism is like that.

    Oh well, I'm off to Mississippi tomorrow to pick out my estate. :)

    "...at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, 'Not this time'" - Barack Obama, 3/18/08

    by brightstar on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:45:44 PM PDT

  •  Interesting diary (0+ / 0-)

    And an interesting mother you have.

    I don't know what to tell you. The easiest way to overcome racism, ethnicism, xenophobia is to spend some time elbow-to-elbow with those about whom we have gross preconceptions: be it at work at church, in the PTA, or whatever.

    It sounds like you mother was more sheltered from diversity than the average American today.

    Her odd predilection for Bill Clinton sounds like a post-middle-aged woman's take on a kind of "Stand By Your Man"/"Uppity Woman" thing.

    But enough "Fristing": you know her better than we do. What motivates her?

    White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 10/07)

    by Glinda on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:03:22 PM PDT

  •  your first question (0+ / 0-)

    was to ask your mom if racial prejudice was the reason she didn't like Obama.

    I think we'll be ready for a black president when that isn't the first question asked of white people who criticize a black candidate, when we don't feel the need to explain that we voted for Jesse Jackson 20 years ago for president and numerous other candidates who were black since then.

    I don't trust Obama either. For me it's the fake folksy accent he takes on when addressing an audience (reminds me of Bush), and the emotional rhetoric that, when you really listen, is entirely without substance (again, Bush). I feel uncomfortable with the enthusiasm over his vague "movement" of bringing us all together ("I'm a uniter, not a divider"); it's like I'm watching a cult forming around me and moving the Democratic party to a location to be named later. Trust him, it'll be great. I'm sorry, but I just don't.

    Do I have to list the people of color I do trust?

Permalink | 99 comments