Daily Kos

A question for Obama supporters

Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:18:45 PM PDT

Ok, not much of a diary, tonight, but I have been arguing a few points throughout the day, and so I am really curious - if you had to choose between Obama being president with Hillary as Senate Majority Leader, or Obama losing the election, but the Clintons out of politics, which would you prefer?

Not much of a diary, but please, vote, and let me know.  I admit this is a hypothetical, but its just something I am really wondering about.

For me, I want a Democratic president, and that answers it for me.  And, yes, I still remain uncommitted.

Poll

I would prefer

89%308 votes
10%38 votes

| 346 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 77 comments

  •  McCain Presidency? Are You Nuts? nt (9+ / 0-)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:21:09 PM PDT

  •  As angry as I am at Hillary...OF COURSE (7+ / 0-)

    I would not want McCain to be President....
    c'mon.

  •  Your poll is sort of silly. (12+ / 0-)

    It's like, would you rather have 10 million dollars and be good looking,

    or have cancer and die.

    It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

    by Fishgrease on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:21:43 PM PDT

    •  Well, actually, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      anotherdemocrat

      I kind of agree with you - I think it is silly.  The problem is, I am seeing a lot of Obama supporters, at least here, who seem more focused on destroying the Clintons than on getting Obama elected.  

      Thus, the poll

      •  Destroying the Clintons? (5+ / 0-)

        Are you really paying attention?

        I am an undecided voter who has decided to back Obama.  Until very recently, I was undecided because I was equally comfortable with both candidates.

        Then Hillary and her team convinced me to vote for Obama.

        I will not go through the laundry list of the absolute bullshit she and they have done recently.  I will mention only the tipping point:  when she endorsed McCain over Obama, she lost me utterly and forever.  I have been following presidential politics since Kennedy/Nixon.  You remember Kennedy?  The junior senator with limited experience whose critics labelled him a dilletante?  The best president of my lifetime?  That Kennedy.

        In all that time, I have seen some bare-knuckled, no-holds-barred primaries.  But I have never seen a potentially viable candidate from one side say, "Vote for me or vote for the other party; but don't vote for our front-runner because he is not qualified."  

        Tell me again about Obama supporters trying to destroy the Clintons.

        Si se fucking puede! - Melody Townsel

        by Endangered Alaskan Dem on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:34:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well now lets see.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        pvlb

        I am seeing a lot of Obama supporters, at least here, who seem more focused on destroying the Clintons than on getting Obama elected.  

        Look at your poll. You're obviously not seeing a lot of people who seem more focused on destroying the Clintons than on getting Obama elected.

        In other words, you're projecting that in order to feel more comfortable with yourself about one thing or another.

        And before you disagree with me, it's YOUR poll!

        It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

        by Fishgrease on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:37:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can point to a lot of posts (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          anotherdemocrat

          that say that Clinton doesn't deserve anything.  In countless diaries.  That the only deal is that she needs to accept the outcome, and get over it.  And that her supporters will fall in line, and vote for Obama

          I am not at all convinced of that, and have suggested that, as a method of uniting the party, a deal be made, where by Obama is the nominee, and Clinton would get to be something like Majority Leader, or Supreme Court Justice, assuming Obama wins.

          I consider that a good solution, and a way to bring unity to the party.  And I've had a number of people say she shouldn't get anything.  I can provide links, if you want.

      •  The Goal is NOT to Destroy the Clintons..... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        la urracca

        The goal is to bring about populist change in our nation's capital.

        Those who hate the Clintons can rest assured that after 8 years of President Obama, Hillary will be far too old to be considered "electable" and the Clinton's WILL fade from the political spectrum.

        Personally, I loved Bill's first term, but feel that he capitulated to the Republicans in his second term, making him less effective and ruining what would have been one Helluva run as President.

        Hillary.....I don't hate the woman.  I feel that she's a carpet-bagger and that she's FAR too well connected to the jackals of K street (lobbyists) to represent the BEST interests of the individual Americans living in this country.

        McCain???  My GOD, no!  Who in their right mind wants another four years of GWBush?

        Elect Obama first, THEN worry about the rest of the issues you raise.

        Celtic Merlin

        Bush & McCain - as inseparable as Shit & Stink.

        by Celtic Merlin on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:39:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I just have to pile on here (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        la urracca

        Seriously?

        I don't even know where to start with this. Clinton is the one going around telling the voters of Pennsylvania -- a crucial swing state -- that McCain is more qualified to be president than Obama, who will probably be our nominee!

        We're just trying to get her to stop!!


        "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." - Salvor Hardin

        by Zackpunk on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:47:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Im not justifying her attacks (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          anotherdemocrat

          Im not even a supporter, as I said - I am an uncommitted Dem, who wants us to win.  And I would like to see those kind of comments stop.  

          Thats why I've said a deal should be offered - like Senate Majority Leadership - its not a bad deal IMHO.  It would unite the party, and we could really go after Mccain, after the primaries.

          I just worry that, to many people are more interested in getting her (and Bill) out of politics, than in getting the nominee elected.

          I'd love to be wrong - I just worry that Im not

          •  I think that's crazy (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            la urracca

            You don't reward someone for trying to screw up the election. That's not a deal, that's extortion.


            "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." - Salvor Hardin

            by Zackpunk on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:12:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, its (0+ / 0-)

              a realization that she could hurt the Democrats, and it can be part of a carrot and stick approach, to get her to stop these kind of attacks.

              The carrot is something like Senate Majority Leader.  The stick is political warfare from the Democratic party on her.

              Its just standard negotiating.

              •  Listen to yourself (0+ / 0-)

                You're talking about her like she's an airplane hijacker, or a mafia informant. And I don't entirely disagree with the framing.

                Why should we reward her for lack of party unity?


                "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." - Salvor Hardin

                by Zackpunk on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:22:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because she is a better ally than enemy (0+ / 0-)

                  I don't agree that I am framing it that way.  I'd argue its more like bilateral relations between countries - she can hurt us, but she can also help us.  

                  She makes a much better ally than enemy, IMHO.  And yes, I say again, I am not at all convinced that the 12+million who have voted for Clinton will fall behind obama, and vote for him, in Nov

                  •  But that's my point (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    la urracca

                    When did she become an "enemy"? Look -- John McCain is the "enemy," right? Why don't we make him majority leader?

                    To use your international negotiations analogy, it would be like working out a treaty with Ohio. Ohio is already a state. We shouldn't have to be banging out treaties within our own union.


                    "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." - Salvor Hardin

                    by Zackpunk on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:46:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Destroying is Too Strong (0+ / 0-)

        but she has to be taken out - sooner is better. She is doing nothing but harm - driving up Obama's negatives. She can't win unless the Supers nullify the voters' decision, so she is hanging around for self-aggrandizement at the expense of the party. She is not in any sense of the word a viable candidate any more. She is conducting a hateful, mean-spirited and nasty campaign - against the number one choice of her own party.

        So - destroy is too strong. But, if she scorches the earth so bad that she keeps the Republicans in power she will have earned the undying disgust of all progressives.

        Canada - where a pack of smokes is ten bucks and a heart transplant is free.

        by dpc on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:54:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My preference. (6+ / 0-)

    Your missing the "Obama presidency and Bill and Hillary out of politics" option.

    That's the option I'd choose. :P

  •  Honestly? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BasharH, Endangered Alaskan Dem

    At this point...I'm not sure.

    A week ago I would have chosen Hillary as Senate Majority Leader, or HUD secretary, or SCOTUS justice or something...

    But at this point I can't give you an answer either way.  I just don't know if she can redeem herself from this.

    We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

    by DemocraticOz on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:22:10 PM PDT

  •  Out of emotion right now (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ivey476

    I'd say the latter, I'll accept a McCain Presidency to get these filthy creatures permanently out of politics.

    My head tells me a Obama Presidency is worth having Clinton as Maj Leader.

    John McCain's Something for Everyone Plan: Military draft for youth, SS benefit cuts for elderly, Middle Class destruction, stock market plunge for wealthy.

    by IhateBush on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:22:20 PM PDT

    •  Don't pull a Nader! (0+ / 0-)

      The last 7 years haven't been bad enough for ya? Ya want more?

      -4.25, -4.87 "If the truth were self-evident, there would be no need for eloquence." -- Cicero

      by HeyMikey on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:31:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yo (0+ / 0-)

      Clinton as Majority Leader is a good thing imho. I don't like her too much today either, and I've never wanted her as president, but she's made for this role. Very prepared, knowledgeable, persistent. She's not the type to set an agenda or articulate a vision, but she IS the type to ram it through the senate.

      •  Unless she thinks her role (0+ / 0-)

        is to obstruct President Obama.  There are legislative leaders of the same party who did this. Joseph Cannon, Rethug Speaker of the House did so for TR in the early 1900s.  And John Nance Garner as VP, did the same against FDR.

        John McCain's Something for Everyone Plan: Military draft for youth, SS benefit cuts for elderly, Middle Class destruction, stock market plunge for wealthy.

        by IhateBush on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:54:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's a scary thought (0+ / 0-)

          Hadn't considered it. But the only reason she'd do this is for her own future ambition, no? So wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to have Obama and Clinton sit down and plan an agenda together? Wouldn't a majority leader Clinton want credit for passing as much stuff as possible with little public tension?

  •  Here's why I want her as Majority Leader (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    NotablyZen

    I'm a New Yorker, and I want to savor the pleasure of voting her out of office...

    "I run the kitchen, so I can stand the heat" - Nikki Giovanni

    by sistermoon on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:22:40 PM PDT

    •  That's a total nonsequitor (0+ / 0-)

      What does majority leader have to do with it? You'd vote against her whether she was majority leader or not...but I'm sure she'd win without your vote.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:33:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  jesus fucking christ (9+ / 0-)

    will you guys stop with these stupid polls and 2 sentence "diaries" already?
    It's totally inconsiderate of your fellow bloggers who have written well researched thought out diaries only to have them pushed off the recent diary list in about 20 minutes due the the avalanche of this type of tripe.
    Stop it already.

    The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda

    by FireCrow on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:22:57 PM PDT

    •  Re (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Alice in Florida

      1 - First time doing this - I agree its not something that should be done with any sembiance of regularity, but I was seeing a trend, and really curious.

      2 - Given that I had a nice long series, on the importance of the space economy, intended for Obama, and his supporters, and each one (espcially the first 2) got knocked off the roll quickly, because of primary diaries, I don't feel out of line.

      •  I drive sober (0+ / 0-)

        all the time, years now, it's considerate to my fellow drivers to not be fucked up when I'm on the road. Since I got rear ended last week by a drunk driver I figure to hell with it. I'm getting fucked up and behind the wheel now once in awhile.

        The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda

        by FireCrow on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:55:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I know it's unpopular here... (0+ / 0-)

    and I don't care. Hillary and her Surrogates (Ferraro) crossed a line this week. I want them all to go away.

  •  I voted for the first option but after this week, (0+ / 0-)

    my real preference would be an Obama presidency and Bill and Hillary out of politics.  The 3 am ad, the commander-in-chief threshold, the Samantha Power episode (I'm sorry, her remarks were stupid but they were not sexist; Ferraro's are out and out racist).  The Clinton campaign has become increasingly toxic.  

    Middle Aged White Jewish Mom for Obama

    by nycmom on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:24:28 PM PDT

  •  Where is option 3? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    NMLib

    I am hoping for an Obama presidency, and Bill and Hillary out of politics.  That is the only real option.  She has no basis to be majority leader.

  •  A month ago I would have supported her as (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    NMLib

    majority leader but her campaign has gone way downhill.  We need the party elders (make sure at least one woman lest she complain about sexism or misogyny) to step in and tell them to stop the race baiting campaign tactics or get out.

    Middle Aged White Jewish Mom for Obama

    by nycmom on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:27:54 PM PDT

  •  I just responded in anger, but I'm really not (0+ / 0-)

    sure.  I'm actually afraid of Hillary Clinton getting the presidency, though.  I really hate that we're stuck with two shitty options and one pretty good option.

    "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." Orwell

    by NotablyZen on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:32:23 PM PDT

  •  this site (0+ / 0-)

    used to be full of really insightful diaries that the authors had done copious research on and the comments were as thought provoking as the diary itself.

    these days......not so much.

  •  Neither (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    William Domingo

    An Obama nomination makes a McCain presidency less likely. And Hillary extending her campaign until she makes civil war with the party makes her less likely to be majority leader.

    Oh, the hills are groaning with excess, like a table ceaselessly being set.

    by faithfull on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:38:38 PM PDT

  •  she's done with politics after this (0+ / 0-)

    She'll be defeated in the next NY primary.  A lot of the support she has now is from people banking on quid pro quo if she's elected. Once defeated I expect her to have few allies in the Senate. She's burned a lot of bridges inside the Democratic party over the past year.  

    As far as the majority leader position goes, that's a job that requires working diplomatically with other members of your party. When it comes to that, she has 25 years of experience sucking at it.

    I personally think putting Durbin in that slot would be awesome in terms of coordinating with an Obama White House.  

    ---
    Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

    by VelvetElvis on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:39:12 PM PDT

    •  She'll be defeated in the next NY primary. (0+ / 0-)

      Could be, but then she'll just go Lieber-style Independent on us, and with the 35% of Democratic voters who stick with any kind betrayal of the Party joining with Republicans after she talks sweet neo-con nothings in their ears, she might just be able to retain her seat.

    •  She will be a force in the party (0+ / 0-)

      for years to come.  I am quite sure of that.  To think otherwise is a mistake.

      •  How is that? (0+ / 0-)

        To be a "force in the party" she'd have to be able to be able to do the following:

        1. Build consensus to help pass important legislation. Not her thing.
        1. Be able to help people get reelected by campaigning for them.  Now that she's told democratic voters in most states in the union that they don't matter, her support would be a boon to any primary challenger.
        1. Fundraise. Without the lure of favors from a future Clinton administration, she's going to have a hard time getting the fat cats to come off the dough, particularly considering how much they gave to her presidential campaign with nothing to show for it.

        The bottom line is that she operates squarely within the framework of political patronage.  He power and influence will decline in proportion to her ability to do favors for people until she's insignificant.  

        ---
        Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

        by VelvetElvis on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:57:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Majority Leader (0+ / 0-)

    an Obama Presidency and Hillary serving as Majority Leader.  

    a Mccain presidency, but Bill and Hillary are out of politics  

    Hillary can't be Senate Majority Leader until she gets enough seniority to be Majority Leader, and that won't be for another couple of decades. Of course, I'm sure she'll try to "pad her resume" for the job before then somehow. Also, a McCain presidency won't mean the Clintons would "have to leave politics". As a matter of fact, I think they'd probably like it better that way, McCain being president that is.

  •  It's the McCain, Stupid. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    The Termite

    Hillary is not the enemy.  Bill Clinton is not the enemy.  Geraldine Ferraro is not the enemy.  
        McCain.  McCain.  McCain.  McCain. McCain.
    McCain is the enemy.  A Conservative court, more years in Iraq, more dead soldiers, more wars, more hate, more   corporate giveaways, and more ignorance is the enemy.

    Auntie Em: Hate you. Hate Kansas. Taking the dog. Dorothy

    by haremoor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:06:07 PM PDT

  •  c'mon folks (0+ / 0-)

    Hillary Clinton has played some very dirty politics, shown herself to be the political animal that most of already thought she was and certainly she does not have my vote for president. But she is a decent legislator with a record relatively similar to BO and if she were working under a good president ( as I believe Obama will be) I do not think she will be disruptive to the democrats. Lets practice some grace and be creative rather than destructive.

    The speed of communication is wondrous to behold.
    It is also true that the speed can multiply the distribution of information that we know to be untrue. - Edward R. Murrow

  •  I love her when she's fighting Republicans (0+ / 0-)

    I despise her when she's fighting Dems.

    That simple for me.

    "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

    by The Termite on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:20:37 PM PDT

  •  hopefully you're feeling heartened, diarist (0+ / 0-)

    When I voted, the numbers were 87%-12% in favor of an Obama presidency with Hillary as Majority Leader.  You've gotta be feeling appeased, there.

    Back in November/December, I would have been perfectly happy with Hillary as the nominee.  But the way she's run her campaign has irrevocably disillusioned me, from the negativity and fear-mongering to the plain old poor management.  The Clinton campaign is inarguably ruthless, and the implication she made that McCain is better qualified to be president than Obama was disloyal to the Democratic party in a way that I trust concerns you, given the nature of your poll.

    If for some reason Hillary Clinton is the nominee, I will vote for her because I'm a yellow dog Democrat all the way.  I might even reach deep into my conscience, swallow my anger and go to work for her.  I wouldn't bring the joy to it that I bring to my efforts for Barack Obama, but I think we desperately need a Democrat in the White House.

    Since you're undecided, I also hope you'll take into account the effect our nominee will have down the ticket in races across the country.  I'm not going to make a case here for Obama - surely you've looked into this, or you will.

    I didn't come into this race with any a priori bile for Hillary Clinton, but this campaign has certainly deposited some in the ol' bank.  But ultimately I'm not supporting Obama in protest against Hillary.  I'm supporting Obama because he's the first candidate I've run across to inspire me not just to actively get involved in a campaign, but to also take a larger look at how I can help my community in the long term.  For a former political couch potato, that's priceless.

    I wish you luck making your choice.

    •  The problem is that (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      anotherdemocrat

      Im not happy with either candidate, on my 2 main issues.

      My 2 issues are space development, and seeing some sort of accounting for what has happened during the Bush administration, with the real possiblity of criminal indictments and prosecutions.  

      With regard to space development, Hillary has said some things that I like, and Lori Garver, who is advising the Clinton campaign on space issues - I've met her, and trust her to move Nasa in the right direction.  Obama's space policy, however, I find very trouble, as I find his comments about manned spaceflight.  I know that there is a group of space activists that support Obama - I am associated with the group, but his comments have me concerned, as I said.

      As for seeing some sort of accounting, and justice, while I have a small hope that Obama might do something (although its really minuscule), I have really no expectation that Hillary would do something to stop.

      As for making a choice - I already voted - in the michigan primary, I voted for Mr Uncommitted.  If we have a redo, I don't know who I'll vote for.  

      I do feel a little better, but I still remained concerned that the party could end up in a civil war.  Hopefully, that wont' happen.  And, as I said, I intend to vote and campaign for whoever is the nominee

  •  Why it aint gonna happen ... (0+ / 0-)

    I doubt that in the present climate Hillary could get elected majority leader. In order to do that, you have to have an ability to get things done in the Senate, with your fellow Democrats, that Hillary does not currently possess.

    Further, since there are 2 Senators per state regardless of size, all those "boutique" state Senators will not take kindly to her remarks.

    If you don't stand for something, you'll stand for anything.

    by Keith Pickering on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:44:19 PM PDT

Permalink | 77 comments