Sorry, Barack

I don't believe you.

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.

Let me  be specific.  I don't believe the following sentence:

When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign.

I cannot believe that you were unaware of the inflammatory statements made by your Pastor, Jeremiah Wright.  I cannot believe that you were a member of his congrgation for 23 years, that he married you and baptised your children and you didn't know.

These things do not go unnoticed, and you show every indication of being extremely intelligent and super-aware.

23 years!

No.  I don't believe you.  I don't think the Media Beast will take your sentence as definitive.  The Beast will ask the same questions I'm asking myself.  Did you attend any of these sermons?  Were these sermons  the subject of any news reporting?  Perhaps they caused a controversy in Chicago, but did not receive national coverage?  Did Mr. Wright ever appear on Chicago television and radio and express these ideas?  Were the sermons, of which you claim you were unaware, ever the subject of contraversies and conversation within the Church congregation?

I voted for you and supported you, Senator Obama.  I am still prepared to do so.  But for now, I don't believe you.

•  Flame here.

  by bugscuffle on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:38:16 PM PDT

  •  I give him the benefit of the doubt.

    It is a silly controversy, after all.

    McCain can deny his relationship with an attractive young lobbyst and the media gives him a pass. Yet the same media is going apeshit over some absurd comments Obama's pastor made months ago which Obama wasnt' even present to hear.

    Please.

    by jeepdad on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:42:43 PM PDT

    •  It is honest to pete the stupidest

      "controversy" I've ever heard of.

      Senator Obama made the PERFECT choice to speak out about Rezko, when whackos are busy spinning about this stupid shit.

      by sheddhead on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:47:29 PM PDT

      •  Hillary supporter doesn't believe Obama news @ 11

        This diary is idiotic.

        No one. Absolutely no one cares that "bugscuffle" doesn't believe Obama.

        by FishOutofWater on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:53:34 PM PDT

        •  I care

          I say he is either speaking the truth about Obama lying, or Obama is entirely out of touch is some sort of weird isolation.

          by MouseOfSuburbia on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:13:02 PM PDT

          •  I don't even know everything I

            have said, let alone someone with whom I have once-weekly contact, if that (a lot less, out on the campaign trail).

            Do you have a mentor at work?  Do you know everything he has said about everything?  Have you been busy, oohhh, running for President?  

            by DrJeremy on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:24:16 PM PDT

            •  Hahaha that's funny

              I remember Clinton being berated on this site because her campaign was late with a rent check for an office in NH.

              "How can she be president if she can't even keep track of her bills?" was the assertion.

              Are you suggesting that Obama's spiritual advisor berating the US and blaming the US for 9/11 - EVEN THOUGH HE IS CORRECT - is something Obama could not have possibly heard because he was too busy?

              Do you believe yourself?

              by MouseOfSuburbia on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:42:42 PM PDT

              •  Obama is a Senator.

                He lived in Washington for much of the time before he started to run for President. So, it is completely believable that he was not there for a particular sermon.

                by Eternal Hope on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:46:59 PM PDT

                •  Now now, you are slowly reframing things

                  Nobody is making an accusation that he was there.

                  (at least not here.)

                  by MouseOfSuburbia on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:52:18 PM PDT

                  •  Re-read the diary

                    Bug: Did you attend any of these sermons?

                    by Quicklund on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:57:11 PM PDT

                    •  Of course not.

                      That's absurd.

                      by bugscuffle on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:59:10 PM PDT

              •  Umm, yes.

                He's his pastor, not his parent or his wife.  Do you know everything your pastor has ever said about everything?  Do you agree with it?  Would you care to be judged on it?

                by DrJeremy on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 06:59:55 PM PDT

        •  12 tapes, 20 seconds of offensive comments. NT

          by NotablyZen on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:25:30 PM PDT

    •  disagree

      he's been a member of the Church for 20 years, donated huge funds, married and had his children baptized...

      how could he not know what his Pastor stood for.

      I think this is bigger than what's been put forth by his supporters and Barack has to make a strong series of statements or even a speech ala Romney

      I don't think it's going away and I think he's hurt by it.

      by politicalget on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:50:28 PM PDT

      •  Who cares?

        by mnguy66 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:51:15 PM PDT

        •  Indeed.

          Most members of most Christian sects disagree with their pastor/minister/priest on at least one matter of consequence.

          by corvo on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:59:23 PM PDT

          •  Entire congregations have split over

            pastor controversies. It happens in every town in America at some point.

            by jeepdad on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:09:17 PM PDT

      •  It's called Tithing.

        by Shhs on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:58:26 PM PDT

      •  What he stood for? They were talking

        about the 9/11 statements. The guy didn't "stand for" that. Obama did interviews about it a year ago. He wasn't there for the sermon and that might be just when it was brought up to him.

        I'm sure he knew the pastor thought our government had treated people here and other countries poorly but it's not like he'd have been saying "God damn America" 20 years or that he'd have kept saying it.

        When I was doing my own "vetting" of candidates I looked into the real reputation of the church and it was a good one. I read some articles even from conservative pastors who knew the pastor and the church and read what they said about it.

        It's not considered an angry church and the only activism is social things like day care and health outreach, good things.

        by joynow on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:54:19 PM PDT

    •  Who are the Rebubs to

      complain about Obama's pastor. The only thing you hear from their radio talk shows is HATE against gays, blacks, immigrants and hispanics.

      by christine20 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:54:51 PM PDT

      •  You hear that in church too

        Especially the South. Baptist (they hide it a little bit today)

        by Shhs on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:59:07 PM PDT

      •  Exactly

        What about Hagee?  That imbecile who thinks that the Catholic Church is the Great Whore in Revelations...

        We've reached a new low when we are held responsible for everything that one's preacher says.  And we've reached a new low when we are scared of our shadow - when some intemperate remarks by a preacher suddenly give us all the vapors and we freak out that our candidate is suddenly damaged goods.

        Everyone nees to get a grip.

        by ivorybill on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:01:09 PM PDT

  •  perhaps

    you should hear him out and investigate the past a bit before assuming he is not telling the truth.  he doesnt have the track record for lying and obfuscating as do some of the remaining presidential candidates.

    by ratador on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:47:17 PM PDT

  •  you've made it clear you support Hillary

    so maybe this is just one more "deal-breaker" for you.

    by Shahryar on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:48:50 PM PDT

    •  I've never supported Hillary.

      I was undecided until last October, when I decided on Obama.

      by bugscuffle on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:50:18 PM PDT

  •  you should having been watching Tucker

    tonight with Al Sharpton. He was great and laid to rest that not every member of a church knows everything their pastor has said, especially if they have not been at every service. If someone can find the link I think it would add to the discussion.

    by ronnied on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:52:47 PM PDT

    •  Not yet.

      Watch This Space

      by Nonie3234 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:10:05 PM PDT

  •  I already quoted articles in umpteen diaries

    that he uninvited Wright to speak at an early campaign event in early 2007.

    Obama was ready for this at least since early 2007.

    Your skepticism and attempt to turn this non-issue into a smear is noted.

    by wader on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:58:40 PM PDT

    •  And, here's the link

      In February, 2007 Wright was formally taken out of an early campaign event, after he was originally asked to speak:

      http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/...

      . . .

      Some black leaders are questioning Mr. Obama’s decision to distance his campaign from Mr. Wright because of the campaign’s apparent fear of criticism over Mr. Wright’s teachings, which some say are overly Afrocentric to the point of excluding whites.

      Bill Burton, a spokesman for the Obama campaign, said the campaign disinvited Mr. Wright because it did not want the church to face negative attention. Mr. Wright did however, attend the announcement and prayed with Mr. Obama beforehand.

      "Senator Obama is proud of his pastor and his church, but because of the type of attention it was receiving on blogs and conservative talk shows, he decided to avoid having statements and beliefs being used out of context and forcing the entire church to defend itself," Mr. Burton said.

      . . .

      by wader on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:03:07 PM PDT

  •  On the other hand, bugscuffle

    Hillary knew Graham hated Jews when she and Bill worshipped with him:

    

    by ksh01 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:58:47 PM PDT

    •  What about REV. Moon? Wing-nuts

      and Dems alike bow down to Moon, they even put a crown on his head.  Moon says he's Jesus (oh yea and of course he hates the jews).

      by Shhs on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:00:50 PM PDT

  •  The reason I believe him

    ...Being an atheist, I became aware of Wright a LOOOOOONG time ago, and relied on Baracks' Jan 2007 New York Times denunciation of his comments, not the ones today. I knew this was coming eventually, I just thought it would pop up in like, October.  To me religion has no place in politics, but it is an inevitability.

    Concerned with Wright, I checked out some of his sermons available as mp3s online, and they are nothing like what we've seen in the last couple days.  These specific sermons have been cherry picked for the juicy parts - that doesnt excuse any of them in my mind, however I beleive Barack didn't hear them because outrageous statements like the ones we have now seen were simply few and far between.

    Likewise, this sort of thing is why people may have never noticed Ferraro's bigotry until now.  She's made a number of statements, but over enough of a course of time I highly doubt Hillary knew anything at all.

    if Barack was in the pews for these sermons, I think its going to turn up. Theres going to be Trinity United Church Members for Truth ads popping up either way.  Sad but true.

    by MasterSitsu on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:06:22 PM PDT

    •  Here is that article from the New York Times

      April, 2007

      A Candidate, His Minister and the Search for Faith

      You may also find this interesting:

      The Jeremiah A. Wright Letter

      by Nonie3234 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:15:30 PM PDT

  •  Flame?

    Nah.  You see...

    I don't believe you.

    You say you don't believe Obama.  But I think you're such a partisan hack that you'll say anything.

    As long as we're in the business of not giving people the benefit of the doubt (over utterly trivial "issues," on top it of it all...), that is.  Fair's fair.

    Not even worth a donut.

    by ogre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:07:56 PM PDT

    •  Okay.

      Thanks anyhow.

      by bugscuffle on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:10:37 PM PDT

      •  Words you probably skipped over

        The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.

        by ogre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:42:28 PM PDT

        •  I included them in the diary.

          The words I don't believe are:

          When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign.

          by bugscuffle on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:52:39 PM PDT

          •  And yet...

            I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments.

            If you go back, you'll find that he distanced himself at the beginning of his campaign.

            No doubt his campaign engaged in serious self-oppo. It's become the norm.  I'd bet that someone hired to do so did what ABC did--and went through Wright's sermons, because... people KNEW he was a mildly controversial figure, and... those kinds of statements were flagged as problematic.

            But never mind, you don't believe and nothing that anyone's going to say is going to persuade you.  

            by ogre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 06:29:42 PM PDT

  •  What a stupid lie for Obama. He'll get nailed on

    this and have to backtrack.

    This stuff is on video, and easy to find, easy to see when Obama attended. What a dumb thing for him to say.

    He'll be bactracking and fudging on this one now, you'll see. Now it'll be he didn't inhale the 'bad' or contry-versial parts of the sermons, because umm... he was telling his children to be quiet or embracing his wife, or something. Geez, what an ultra dumb move.

    by doinaheckuvanutjob on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:11:13 PM PDT

    •  Ah, perhaps I stand corrected then

      from reading this downthread, that Obama was only referring to the controversial quotes reported in the media. Because the thing is, Wright has said many controversial things over the years, but I don't know if he did it on Sunday sermons.

      Problem with this diary is no links. We need to see the original story and judge for ourselves.

      by doinaheckuvanutjob on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:16:54 PM PDT

      •  Sorry.

        I was only working off the widely seen videos and Obama's Huffpo statement.  Still, if what Obama was referring to is in dispute, that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

        by bugscuffle on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:31:25 PM PDT

    •  Church sermons are video-taped?

      The members attending are video-taped?  Wow.  I guess churches have changed since I last attended one.

      by DrJeremy on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:27:48 PM PDT

      •  Yeah many are.

        A lot of that church's videos of sermons are on YouTube.

        My own local new age church, Ctr. for Spiritual Living, videotapes every sermon as well, so it's common for many different denominations and synagogues too.

        by doinaheckuvanutjob on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:36:47 PM PDT

•  I do believe him.

  So... there you have it.

  And, FYI, no, they made no media splash in Chicago that I'm aware of, and I follow the news here pretty closely.

  by Rorgg on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:39:20 PM PDT

  •  I believe him, fwiw.

    by jeff in nyc on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:41:14 PM PDT

  •  He didn't say

    that he had never heard any inflammatory remarks out of Wright.  He said that he hadn't heard these particular ones.

    Looking at where those quotes fall in his political career, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his assertions were true.  The 2003 remark was during his run for Senate, and the other one was right after 9/11.  It seems reasonable enough that he was busy elsewhere those days.  Can't prove it either way, but the dates are enough to instill reasonable doubt.

    by Elsinora on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:43:25 PM PDT

•  people

  generally have little clue what is said in each week's sermons (especially when there are so many and they are US senators who also have a lot going on).

  i don't believe YOU when you say "sorry."  at least be authentic.

  by bsmcneil on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:39:59 PM PDT

  •  When?

    Now that it supposedly is so important what everyone's pastor says at all times; when is the media going to cover Hillary's Clinton's pastor? Provided she goes to church, that is...

    For goodness sake, talk about dumb issues!

    by mnguy66 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:53:38 PM PDT

    •  well Al Sharton just said that Billy Graham

      made terrible anti-semetic remarks that were on tape and yet he was still invited to the White House by the Clintons and other presidents. And he said nobody was screaming about that.

      by ronnied on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:56:05 PM PDT

      •  Well White people can hate the Jews all day

        long.  I guess it's expected.  -snark sad sad snark

        by Shhs on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:02:09 PM PDT

        •  National Brotherhood Week . . . n/t

          by corvo on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:29:07 PM PDT

    •  i'd just like to point out

      that i hope people remember every word i say when i preach.  and that everyone is responsible for it BUT gets no say over it.  HAHA.

      by bsmcneil on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:58:09 PM PDT

•  The statements were made in January--well into

  the campaign. So there you have it. But thank you for your concern. It is truly touching.

  by The Bagof Health and Politics on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:42:24 PM PDT

•  i don't believe him

  but i don't really give a damn and i'm still down with barack. how's that?

  by missreporter on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:42:26 PM PDT

  •  honest

    by kck on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:48:24 PM PDT

  •  Me too

    In the churches that I have attended in my life, I have heard SO many bigoted statements. Do they reflect on me? Of course not and it is ridiculous to say so.

    by jenontheshore on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:57:13 PM PDT

    •  The problem is,

      you just acknowledged the bogotry you heard in your Church.  Obama denies being aware of it.

      by bugscuffle on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:03:19 PM PDT

      •  So????????

        He's running for president! And they make him jump through hoops that Mccain doesn't have to jump through.

        I don't care not one bit about this issue. I don't doubt Obama's decency or his views or his opinions. And if you read what Wright is saying the other 95% of the side, he is preaching racial harmony and self-reliance and loving Jesus, just like anyone else.

        by jenontheshore on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:08:25 PM PDT

    •  what bigotry?

      i just listened to the video on keith...wright is talking about the atrocities the good ol' USA has committed all over the world...and against black people...it's own people...where is the bigotry? i'd be lying if i said i never thought "God Damn America" just like Wright said. please.

      by missreporter on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 05:07:26 PM PDT

  •  I can dig that.

    I voted for you and supported you, Senator Obama.  I am still prepared to do so.

    by bugscuffle on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:01:43 PM PDT

•  I doubt he attends church all that often

  and I doubt people talked about this at all after he said it.

  by foxsucks81 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:42:27 PM PDT

•  I actually find it curious that we hold the

  two candidates responsible for other people's comments.

  If George Bush were responsible for Anne Coulter's comments, he would be in jail.

  When 25% of the US is made up of wack jobs (just look at Bush's ratings), it doesn't surprise me that Obama and Clinton have supporters whose comments are less than helpful.

  I don't even hold Hillary responsible for Bill. Nor Barack for Michelle.  

  I do hold them responsible if they don't come out to disassociate themselves from these comments.

  I think Obama has done that.

  by captainlaser on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:42:35 PM PDT

•  I believe him because...

  ...he says that he never heard the statements "...while I sat in the pews of Trinity..."

  This is pretty easy to check, so it would be dumb of Obama to lie.  I don't think he's dumb.

  Pastors are also under tight restrictions on how much they can discuss politics in church.

  by ManhattanMan on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:42:40 PM PDT

•  Barack Barack ....

  Barack has been a member of Wright's church for two decades and he never heard him say anything inflammatory or racist in any of his sermons?

  Sure I believe you Barack!

  And George W. Bush has been an excellent President too!

  by Andrew40 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:42:42 PM PDT

  •  Do you believe that Hillary

    was voting for diplomacy?

    Just wondering.

    by dlh77489 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:45:47 PM PDT

  •  But that's not what he said

    He said the specific comments that have caused the recent uproar.

    by christomento on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:52:48 PM PDT

  •  Wow

    you sure beat the shit out of that strawman.

    by happymisanthropy on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:05:03 PM PDT

  •  shoot...I don't think you read what he said.

    did you.

    by billlaurelMD on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:16:59 PM PDT

•  I find it implausible. . .

  that Bill was messing around so much and Hillary didn't really have a clue, but I'm not going to write a smear diary calling her a liar it because I'm not a freeper, and although it's slim she still has a chance of being our nominee and this is a Democratic website, jackass.

  by play jurist on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:43:07 PM PDT

•  As I've said, repeatedly,

  in at least 5 or possibly even 10 of these 50-odd diaries, Wright said some stuff I don't agree with.

  But it seems ridiculous to me to judge the man based on 5 minutes of the most inflammatory statements he made in his 20 year career. I'm not sure where the insistence that he must sound like this every week is coming from.

  by brklyngrl on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:43:57 PM PDT

  •  must sound like this every week

    scuffle gets it from FOX.  Fairly unbalanced.  They showed a "representative" selection--i.e., the most provocative thing they could find--and scuffle knows, like most FOX watchers, that this is what Wright says every week, over and over.

    by ogre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:01:53 PM PDT

    •  No,

      I'm sure they sampled bits over several years just to make sure they got a fair and balanced sample of what the man really represents.

      by happymisanthropy on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:06:32 PM PDT

•  I believe him...

  And as you well know, I'm not an Obama supporter, per se.

  That being said, however, I'm not sure if his statement and cable media tour will be enough to put this issue to rest... only time will tell, methinks.

  by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:44:01 PM PDT

  •  Oh I think it will put it to rest

    and certainly will put to rest that he is a Muslim. So it will have a double benefit.

    by ronnied on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:58:45 PM PDT

    •  I don't know about that...

      while it may help to dispel the rumor that he's a Muslim, it also feeds into the meme that he belongs to a "radical" church.

      I wouldn't be so quick to write this whole thing off.

      by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:00:29 PM PDT

      •  It's not going to disappear, and McCain can

        scare some people with it..the question is if what was nuclear left sitting there can be defused into a chain-email type fear point. (I'd like to see them combine the Muslim/bad Christian thing into one email!)

        by jeff in nyc on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:03:08 PM PDT

        •  Yeah...

          this is really much more an issue about perception rather than reality.

          I think it's unrealistic to portray this as a net positive for Obama... at least at this point.

          by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:05:05 PM PDT

      •  Radical

        It's the freaking (more) CONSERVATIVE wing of the religious movement that split... and the other side is the Unitarians.

        The RADICAL side gave us at least four presidents, and Jefferson considered himself a Unitarian congregation of one (that would be a fifth).

        And the UCC is so radical that...

        < rolling eyes >

        by ogre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:04:33 PM PDT

        •  I didn't say it's a "radical" church...

          what I said is that it plays into the meme that it's a radical church.

          Do you deny that there's such a meme out there?

          by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:06:07 PM PDT

          •  Nah.

            The meme is that black churches ARE radical churches.  Damned MLK.

            Now, ask me if I give a shit if it's a "radical" (or perceived as "radical") church.

            Or if I think that many voters do.

            by ogre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:37:31 PM PDT

    •  RWers might just modify the smear into

      his church is a secret mosque!

      by condorcet on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:45:38 PM PDT

      •  Count on it. They'll say/do anything, no matter

        how ridiculous, as long as it's brazenly evil.

        by doinaheckuvanutjob on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 05:06:00 PM PDT

  •  I should also add...

    that I do think this is a legitimate issue which bears media scrutiny (though I can't say whether it bears the level level of scrutiny it's been receiving... I haven't been watching the news today).

    Unlike the situation with Farrakhan, this involves someone with whom Obama has had a longstanding personal/spiritual relationship.

    by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:59:07 PM PDT

    •  The RW is/will make a big issue of it

      --demonize Wright & how Obama is close to him.

      It's all over the RW sites, has been for months. They will use this. Don't think the story will disappear. Heck, the RW makes up smears all the time and runs with them. This is red meat for them.

      Whether it will matter to voters is another matter altogether.

      by doinaheckuvanutjob on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:22:41 PM PDT

      •  I don't think it will.

        Obama jumped in the polls today.

        by Eternal Hope on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:35:15 PM PDT

        •  But this didn't really get media play until today

          I think it's too early to know what, if any, impact this will have.

          by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:43:38 PM PDT

          •  It got some yesterday as well.

            by Eternal Hope on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:44:42 PM PDT

            •  Well...

              even if it got some play in last night's news cycle (which I'm not disputing), it's still too early for the impact to show up in polls.

              I'm not saying it will have a negative effect on Obama... just that it's too early to say one way or the other.

              by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:47:13 PM PDT

  •  I think an additional speech would put this to

    rest. The statement and the cable news will quell it, but he'll have to repeatedly deny it. I was very worried earlier, but the statement and news of the media tour put me at ease. I think it'll blow over as long as Obama keeps repeating what makes him tick, not what anyone else makes him tick.

    by slinkerwink on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:37:25 PM PDT

    •  Yeah...

      I've seen people suggest that he should maybe give a Kennedyesque speech on religion like Romney tried to do, and that it might work because he's such a good orator.... I think I might agree with that.

      by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:42:32 PM PDT

      •  The more I think about this...

        the more I think that it probably would be a good idea for him to give such a speech.

        It's the only way I can think of that would enable him to seize the issue and use it to his benefit.

        by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:50:42 PM PDT

        •  I think a highly anticipated speech on Monday

          would be best. Thanks for being very reasonable, Trix. Most Hillary supporters I know are chortling about how this will bring Obama down.

          by slinkerwink on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:52:41 PM PDT

          •  I'm a Democrat first and foremost

            :-)

            by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:55:37 PM PDT

            •  good :-)

              by slinkerwink on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:56:03 PM PDT

              •  Just because I support Hillary...

                doesn't mean that I would want to see Obama brought down... I have a great deal of respect for him.

                And I believe that I speak for a lot more Hillary supporters than you'd think in saying that.

                :-)

                by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:59:07 PM PDT

            •  I wish I could tip you.

              Ah, well.

              by slinkerwink on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:57:40 PM PDT

              •  It's the thought that counts :) n/t

                by Trix on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:59:36 PM PDT

•  BULLSHIT

  Hillary Clinton believes in torturing Jews and Muslims with fire.

  She is a Christian.  

  The core Christian belief is that all Jews and Muslims and Budhists and Athiests and everyone else who isn't a Christian will be tortured by God in a lake of burning fire forever and ever.

  What is more hateful than that?

  How do you excuse that?

  And it is PREACHED regularly from the pulpit of all churches around the world.

  by AntonBursch on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:44:33 PM PDT

  •  Sorry, I had to hide

    For obvious reasons.

    by BoiseBlue on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:46:36 PM PDT

    •  why

      this is the hypocrisy of this entire controversy

      all of the presidential candidates are christians

      most of all of our presidents were christians as were founding fathers.

      they all believed that jews and muslims are going to burn in hell forever for not being christians

      or, like Obama, they don't acccept everything that is preached in church, even the most core beliefs when they are hateful and absurd

      by AntonBursch on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:50:55 PM PDT

      •  Not all Christians

        believe the fire and brimstone outcome taught by radio evangelists. I don't know the numbers.

        by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:05:37 PM PDT

        •  I surely wish

          that those who don't would come down on those who do believe that everyone other than them (even other Christians) are going to hell.

          by billlaurelMD on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:16:24 PM PDT

          •  I wasn't running for president but the idea

            of a God that would condemn those not in the "right" or any religion was so appalling to me that after debating it I just left the church.
            I was in 5th grade, went to a Catholic school so we had religion every day and I was forever in trouble for asking questions or disagreeing but it just made no sense to me.

            One of my grandmothers I went to church with at times would be so sad and get teary eyed because she couldn't go to communion because she'd been divorced and remarried (guess church annulments weren't common then) so she was ex-communicated.
            If I'd stay at a friends house that went to another church I wasn't suppose to go and it certainly didn't count as church.
            What? God couldn't hear people in that building? Or an old lady who did everything right was doomed because he husband had dumped her decades ago?
            The majority of the world who were great people were doomed because they were Muslim or Hindu? Someone not baptized or who didn't believe in God could be wonderful and honest and loving but are doomed while a Christian who is mean and does bad things gets to heaven?

            Nuns and priests and adults aren't too impressed with the insistence of a child that "God wouldn't do that"
            Or "Jesus didn't say that" or "that's not what that means"

            There was more to my issues but that was the main one. It's ridiculous. How petty is God?

            Now Obama's talks on faith have been more appealing to me because he speaks of honoring all faiths as well as the secular? Can't recall how he words not judging those who don't have any religion as not being as good.

            I'll tell you if there is God he does not give a dang what church you go to or if you go to church or what you call him.

            But when you think about it we have a majority of people saying if you don't believe in (insert miraculous things here that go back to the myths in pagan religions but have varying names) you are a lesser being? If you don't believe the right version of impossible things having happened to Hades with you?

            Good Lord. So to speak. Jesus, man or myth, said fine things. so did those in other faiths. If they were real and still exist they'd be shaking their heads as they watch the mess made in their name and saying "Oy vey" or whatever language they would use.

            by joynow on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 05:55:01 PM PDT

        •  Evangelism versus universalism.

          Evangelicals believe the unconverted go to hell, Universalists don't care so much about that and believe that "all persons and creatures are related to God or the divine and will be reconciled to God. A church that calls itself Universalist may emphasize the universal principles of most religions and accept other religions in an inclusive manner, believing in a Universal reconciliation between humanity and the divine"

          Big gulf of difference. Universalists may have gay and female ministers and are very open and inclusive in their teachings and ministries, while evangelicals tend more towards Biblical literalism and conservative politics though not all evangelicals are conservative either.

          by doinaheckuvanutjob on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 05:19:09 PM PDT

    •  Agreed.

      As long as the hellfire stays speculative and people don't actually light me on fire, why should I care?

      Also, I know plenty of Christians who believe that the "Righteous Unsaved" have a chance at heaven by accepting Jesus after death, or something like that.  So much for "all Christians".

      by Elsinora on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:53:53 PM PDT

  •  Not all Christians are taught that

    I wasn't.

    by HRs Kevin on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:53:59 PM PDT

  •  Your post

    is the equivalent of saying that all Muslims believe in strapping on an IED and setting it off in an elementary school classroom.

    by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:07:11 PM PDT

  •  Blimy, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

    Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

    by Caelian on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:15:59 PM PDT

  •  Just shows to go you how to avoid hides and

    get offsetting recommends is to say something hideable, by adding Hillary to it, and the uprates will come flowing.

    Trolls, pay no attention to this comment.

    BTW, I don't think Anton's being trollish, he's cool, except for just saying hideable stuff that I don't want to waste my precious tr's on.

    by doinaheckuvanutjob on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 04:43:51 PM PDT

•  I don't care

  and I ain't scared of Hannity.  How do you like them apples?

  by mcfly on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:45:14 PM PDT

  •  Well, I like them.

    I really thought we were doing better not falling into the "OMG Teh Republicans!! Think what they'll say about this!!!!!"  trap.

    If people have a problem with such a problem with Wright's statements that they don't want to support Obama anymore, that's fine. But all this handwringing over what other people might think is pathetic.

    by brklyngrl on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:49:58 PM PDT

•  WhyDoYouCare???

  by oscarfrye on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:45:24 PM PDT

•  9-11 didn't happen