Daily Kos

Hobbits 2.0?

Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:04:08 AM PDT

From the young island nation of Palau, nestled in the warm waters of the Pacific Ocean 2000 miles south of Tokyo, comes news of a most peculiar fossil find. It's too soon to say if it's a clever hoax, a new species, or just unusual variation in an all too familiar critter. Early reports suggest that island dwarfism was hard at work in the relatively recent past. But hold on to your hat, because this time the species downsized by the long sharp scalpel of natural selection, may have been us. Via Afarensis:

PLoS -- Preliminary analysis indicates that this material is important for two reasons. First, individuals from the older time horizons are small in body size even relative to "pygmoid" populations from Southeast Asia and Indonesia, and thus may represent a marked case of human insular dwarfism.

Hominid plasticity: Human Evolution. For creationists it's the crux of controversy. And don't think for a second this belief is only present among conservatives. A 2004 poll shows that almost half of all Kerry voters believed that "God created humans in their present form." But the evidence for human evolution is immense.

Well, we can assume most creationists are busy this morning, and there is a lot of new blood coursing through the veins of Big Orange. So in hope of placing this new find in some scientific context, a short survey of a few evolutionary highlights and a poll on human origins is in order right here, right now, on Sunday Kos.

  • ::

In the early days of biology it quickly became obvious that living creatures have changed radically over time. Plants and animals were alive that could not be found in the fossil record, there were plants and animals in the fossil record for which there were no living representatives found in the late 18th century.

Because of comparative anatomy and physiology, many of those early biologists had come to suspect that groups of living things were somehow related, distant kin, but they lacked a testable explanation for transmutation of species. What Charles Darwin did was to provide that explanation, and more importantly, he backed it up with observed data gathered in his younger days while on a long ocean voyage aboard the HMS Beagle. Darwin's insight was built on several observed facts:

  • More offspring are born than the environment can support.
  • Intense competition ensues among those offspring for finite resources.
  • There is variation among those offspring lending some of them a competitive edge.
  • At least part of that adaptive variation can be inherited.

Darwin inferred that the environment could naturally select for advantageous traits in plants and animals in much the same way humans had done so using artificial selection to domesticate plants and animals. His resulting inference was that over time, those changes build up, and over long periods of time the accumulated change could be dramatic, giving rise to one or more completely new species. This was Darwin's original theory, Descent with Modification, to explain the Origin of Species. That theory, like any scientific explanation, is logical, consistent, and makes testable predictions. One of the more controversial predictions, at least to creationists, is common descent. Specifically, humans share a common ancestor with other animals, such as chimps or primates or dogs.

Much of the evidence for common descent, be it whales or humans, revolves around two items Darwin would have readily understood, biostratification of the fossil record and transitional fossils.

Biostratification simply means that ancestors are found in the fossil record before descendants. Fish appear before amphibians, reptiles are found before birds, mammals appear before whales or humans. Imagine how easy this would be to falsify: one partial skull of a modern dog found in situ in the entire fossil record during or before the reign of the dinosaurs would threaten it. And yet there's not a single such piece of evidence.

Transitional fossils are remains which show a combination of morphological traits straddling two recognizable groups of living creatures, or clades. Again one single transitional fossil found out of phylogenetic sequence, a half-monkey and half-butterfly for example, would be enough to discredit that enormous body of data.


Left: A scene from 50 million-years ago, Ambulocetus, a transitional 'walking' whale chomps on an early horse. Right: Australopithecus, 3 mya, next to the paleo-wildlife artist who created both images, Carl Buell.

One of the more fascinating lines of evidence for common descent comes from a field Darwin and his contemporaries were completely unaware of: molecular analysis of genetic material. One example comes in the form of a genetic 'scar.' Viruses insert themselves into the genome and turn it into a virus making machine. Sometimes the little bastards will get into the DNA, successfully replicate a few hundred times, the copies reinserting back into the genome, before the body's defenses shut them down. Once deactivated, those little scraps of viral remnants remain in the genome, like a signpost saying "Mr. Virus, was here".  We can tell they're viral because they code for proteins not used in eukaryotic (Animal) cells such as viral enzymes. These preserved viral scraps are called Endogenous Retro-viruses or ERVs for short. And if they happen to lay near or within a stretch of DNA that confers an adaptive trait which becomes ubiquitous in the entire population, every member of that population will have that ERV in the exact same location[s]. Or courtesy of BonoboBill, in video.


Well, it so happens humans and chimpanzees have at least seven of the exact same viral base pairs sequences in several hundred respective locations in their respective genomes. We know how that can happen; chimps and humans shared a common ancestor. We can also estimate how long those shared sequences between chimps and humans have been around, because there are slight, random changes to the sequence over time. The hands on the molecular clock point to about 6-8 million years. Which just happens, oddly enough, to be exactly what the fossil evidence would suggest for a split between the ancestors of chimps, and the ancestors of humans.

Another example from modern genetics are repeat elements like SINES and LINES. Humans share these sequences with chimps and dogs and rodents. But where a repeat element unique to humans and chimps happens to overlap another shared between humans and mice, the human-mouse sequence is over written by the human-chimp sequence; never the other way around. These patterns match the biostratification of the fossil record by confirming that the common ancestor of humans/chimps is more recent than the common ancestor of rats/humans. And these two examples, ERVS and repeat elements, are a tiny fraction of the genetic evidence. There's enough published scientific work in genetics or molecular biology that only makes sense in the light of evolution to keep you busy reading for life.

The genetic evidence for human evo isn’t just a smoking gun, it’s a video of common descent pointing the weapon and pulling the trigger.

Common ancestry is now so well supported that if the theoretical process by which species change and diverge were to be discredited, it would be necessary to find another explanation consistent with common descent. Evolutionary biology also interlocks perfectly with prior evidence from a variety of independent sources, developmental biology and homology, the age of the earth and universe, physics, plate tectonics, organic chemistry, and so on. The modern form of the theory of evolution which unifies all this evidence under a single, coherent explanatory framework is called the Modern Synthesis. That explanation predicts that under certain intense selective pressures, and especially in a relatively small, geographically isolated population such as those found on islands, even routine variations in height or weight can provide plenty of change for natural selection to act upon quickly.

This is what happens in cases of insular dwarfism. Trapped on an island with limited resources, creatures once large can evolve into smaller versions (Interestingly, very small creatures like lizards or mice living on relatively large islands in the absence of larger predators can evolve into giants). It's happened to mammoths, hippos, and even dinosaurs. A few years ago the paleo-anthropology community was rocked by the discovery of what appear to be primitive, dwarf hominids on a remote island in Indonesia called Flores.

Which brings us to today: Whereas the comparatively small-brained "Hobbits" (H. floresiensis) from Flores date from a range of 15,000 -- 90,000 years ago and may represent a population of dwarf hominids descended from something like H. erectus, based on the limited information released, these "Palau Pygmies" sound much more like anatomically modern humans. Except they were petite --  a little over one meter in height and weighing roughly 70 pounds!

Even more stunning, the abstract states they could have still been running around on one side of the world while the Roman Empire rose and fell on the other. And the real kickers is, if they do turn out to be some sort of subspecies that evolved from modern man, that would make us the transitional species to them.

Poll

Which answers best fits your view on human evolution?

2%326 votes
2%296 votes
21%3050 votes
73%10192 votes

| 13864 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: sunday kos, science, evolution (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 460 comments

  •  Please allow (60+ / 0-)

    me to introduce to you a partial list of transitional fossils, and this just from primitive fish to early tetrapods alone!

    Come to think of it, that’s rather fitting music to read this post by, eh?

    If it’s Sunday, it’s Sunday Kos!

    Read UTI, your free thought forum

    by DarkSyde on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:04:27 AM PDT

  •  You forgot this option in poll: (16+ / 0-)

    "Humans evolved from earlier primates over millions of years, God(s) involved insofar as the universe is the God(s) trying to understand it/ him/ her self?"

    •  I agree (12+ / 0-)

      The current poll hems people into four extremely simplistic conceptions.

      •  Well (20+ / 0-)

        I apologize if you feel hemmed in, but polls can't be edited once published, only deleted. The options are basically, Young Earth Creationism, Old Earth Creationism, Theistic Evolution, and plain old evo with no reference to deities.

        Read UTI, your free thought forum

        by DarkSyde on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:18:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I suggest deleting it (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          DarkSyde, Sharon Wraight, MarkBird

          You wrote a great diary that stands on its own, and doesn't need an evolution debate to make it relevant to Kos.

          Even judging from the small percentage of creationist responses, I think it's safe to say the poll isn't relevant here.

          If you want a poll, how 'bout a poll on whether to delete it.

          •  Speak (18+ / 0-)

            for yourself, it's relevant to me and at least 3029 other readers. But if you want to write a diary and include a poll of your own wording, by all means I strongly support the idea and I'll reco it.

            Read UTI, your free thought forum

            by DarkSyde on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:12:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  your poll misses the right answer IMHO (5+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              rhubarb, cappy, DarkSyde, marykk, Spocks Brain

              I read the poll first, and won't bother reading the diary (beyond a quick glance), because the poll is so bad.

              One doesn't need "direction" or "planning" to find "God" a meaningful concept. "God" is the totality of the universe, a concept that encompasses evolution, all scientific process, all existence.  Frankly, I'm disappointed that such a shallow, trite, hackneyed view of religion and evolution would find its place on a front-page story.  Is the author deliberately or unconsciously buying into a Scopes framing?  Or simply trying to provoke by setting up a straw-man to knock down?

              How about:

              Humans evolved from earlier primates over millions of years through a process in which many people find the concept of "God[s]" to be part of a meaningful description.

              The glory of an amazing sunrise or sunset, the beauty of a forest or a leaf, the astonishing biological creativity in deep-sea creatures, the complex mathematical symmetry in a sea-shell (the golden number, sometimes called the divine number in architecture), the astonishing order in chemistry's periodic table (and the brilliance it took to describe it), the spark of artistic genius in amazing compositions of music, art and literature -- many people (including myself) find it useful to use in part a religious (sacred) vocabulary to describe these things (and others).  

              It is difficult to conclude anything scientific from the self-selected responses to a "poll" with constrained answers, among a community for whom our most favored response is often "pie".  

              Reducing religious dialogue to a caricature (by either side) does no-one any good.

              •  I agree with your conceptualization ... (7+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                xerico, Debby, rhubarb, cappy, ksingh, rcbowman, marykk

                ... but can't recommend taking pride in not reading a diary based on looking at only a simplistic poll.  

                I find Darksyde's writing to be some of the best, most inspiring on this site -- and some of the most "spiritual" too (in my sense of the word).  I wish he could publish a series of popular science books, like Carl Sagan and Stephen Gould!

                I was going to respond to the wording of the poll myself, but found that others have done it ahead of me.  It does, to me, demonstrate the typical rationalist's literal-minded, separatist idea of how spiritual people must, by definition, view "God" as something other and separate -- a big PERSON.  (Although, I completely acknowledge that there are many, many who DO believe in such a childish, simple-minded view of God!)  

                I find many left-brained people simply do not get, cannot comprehend, spiritual and mystical experience.  I did not take the poll because any answer would be an inaccurate reflection of my real views.  Yet, as a result, my views don't get taken into account at all, so they continue to not exist in the poll-writer's mind.

                •  Not pride, just fact. Too much to read. (0+ / 0-)

                  I subscribe to print editions of Nature and Science. I read dKos for progressive politics, not science.  shrug  The internet has create an infinite amount to read, in the sense that more is written daily than anyone can possibly read.  Setting up filters is a logical way to proceed.

                •  Typical arrogance. (0+ / 0-)

                  I find many left-brained people simply do not get, cannot comprehend, spiritual and mystical experience.

                  Yeah, those who disagree must not get. Not.

                  Yet, as a result, my views don't get taken into account at all, so they continue to not exist in the poll-writer's mind.

                  The four positions form a logically complete set; exactly one of them must be true, regardless of your views.

                  •  Laugh. (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Debby, niemann

                    Ignorance, cloaked in scientism?  Yuk.

                    The four positions form a logically complete set; exactly one of them must be true, regardless of your views.

                  •  Not arrogance ... (0+ / 0-)

                    ... just an acknowledgment, similar to "People who are born deaf cannot 'get' the experience of hearing, or blind people cannot comprehend color."

                    It's not a judgment, just a fact.

                    Your answer is evidence for my point.  You sound rather like a blind person trying to prove a point about color.  The poll forms a "logical" set, given your logic-based idea of God -- but ...

                    One of the key points that emerges over and over throughout the mystical and spiritual writings of the world, over thousands of years is, when one has direct experience with ... the divine, the greater, the whole, God, whatever ... logic breaks down and doesn't apply.  It is inadequate to define that greater truth.  It then becomes necessary to resort to paradox and non-rationality (which is often mistaken for IR-rationality by rationalists).

                    People who have had near-death experiences describe and struggle with this very problem.  I'm working with such a person now, and she gets frustrated because she can't put her experience into words:  She was in a "place" that wasn't really a "place" as such, because it was everywhere, and nowhere;  and the past, present, and future were all there at the same time -- but "time" then didn't really apply, as it was a totality;  and she met a great being she could only define as "God" -- but the being was also the "place" at the same time, which was also that particular state-of-mind of being "there" ...  And it was incomprehensible, but it all made sense and was more real than her everyday life.

                    And like many NDErs, her experience has led her to be fascinated by science, and learning in general, as it is a way to more fully understand that "God" she met.  

                    She would also not agree with your "logically complete" set.  According to her experience, God is not "guiding" the process of evolution because God cannot be outside the process, and the concept of time doesn't apply anyway.  God IS the process -- and all processes occurring "simultaneously."

                  •  Logical completeness can remain ambiguous (0+ / 0-)

                    There exists a set of people who hold a certain belief? Or are you not part of that set?

                    Logically complete, yet incredibly ambiguous as I have not told you what that belief is. I am (C) or (D) but without an unambiguous definition of what the term "God" means, I can't possibly answer the question meaningfully.

              •  It's not a theological question.... (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                ChemBob, drbloodaxe

                I think there's some confusion here about the poll b/c it happens to include the word "God."  The question in the poll is not a religious question, it's a scientific question.  

                Evolution is a fact.  The question is, do you believe in Darwin's theory of natural selection, which explains why evolution happened, or do you think a supernatural being snapped his fingers and that evolution is all part of that supernatural being's hoax on mankind?  These are both scientific questions about how life on our little blue bubble came to be.

                The last option, in my mind, is unnecessary.  How does the "God guided evolution" option help?  Why would a god pick the one way of creating life that makes it look like he's not there?  The argument certainly does nothing to improve our understanding of the natural world.  It still trespasses on the field of science, though, so it belongs in the poll.

                The option you've suggested/endorsed is the Einsteinian God option.  It's not scientific.  It simply says there is mystery and beauty in the natural world that you find far more awe inspiring than a SUPERnatural being.  Even Richard Dawkins endorses this view of "God," but it has nothing to do with the scientific question of evolution.  

                •  Ateo... (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon Wraight, dRefractor

                  Evolution is a fact.  The question is, do you believe in Darwin's theory of natural selection, which explains why evolution happened, or do you think a supernatural being snapped his fingers and that evolution is all part of that supernatural being's hoax on mankind?  These are both scientific questions about how life on our little blue bubble came to be.

                  ??? I've never met anyone who doesn't acknowledge the obvious fact of different levels of 'fitness' relative to life as it is inherited from the life that generated it. But that's only half the equation - selection cannot select anything that does not exist to be selected. Life that does not reproduce (for any reason) contributes nothing to evolution on either side of the equation. Yet it still counts as life.

                  There are more choices than the black and white you offer here (or the black, white and grays the poll offers). Selection is a mechanism - a "how," not a "why." There are other mechanisms as well, as science has learned quite a bit in 150 years. None of it addresses "why" life evolves, and none of it answers the question of how life came to be.

                •  They are four mutually exclusive possibilities. (0+ / 0-)

                  Exactly one must be true, as a matter of logic. None should be omitted just because you think it wouldn't "help" or you question that it could be true. If you don't think a god would do that, then obviously you wouldn't vote that alternative.

                  The option you've suggested/endorsed is the Einsteinian God option.  It's not scientific.  It simply says there is mystery and beauty in the natural world that you find far more awe inspiring than a SUPERnatural being.

                  Einstein would have voted the last option, since he didn't believe in a personal god; our deist founding fathers would have picked that as well. It's odd that some people seem to think that the last option claims there is no god, when it does no such thing.

              •  Simple solution: (12+ / 0-)

                don't respond to the poll. Better solution, create your own, better poll using the tools freely available to you on Daily Kos.  

                Very strange solution: pronounce the poll so bad that you won't read the post, ignore that 5000 people found it funcitonal enough to at least pick an answer, and then write a long comment directed at me apparently under the premise that I should read what you write, even when it's a response stating you won't read what I wrote.

                Read UTI, your free thought forum

                by DarkSyde on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:24:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Boycott (0+ / 0-)

                  God!

                  Boycott reading any polls, fp pieces, diaries

                  or comments

                  damn, now we got something going on
                  /snark ~;)

                  good piece, DS.

                  And Sharon, I love your perspective, yet not so much your invective...

                  Love is the source, substance and future of all being. --St. Francis

                  by ksingh on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:19:14 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I just want the science (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon Wraight

                  Your analysis and illustrations are great. The poll (any poll on this topic) just hijacks what is otherwise a fascinating news/science story, and bifurcates readers into opposable little categories. And then (as with this little digression) we end up off the main science of your piece.

                  Some great stuff (and attached video) about ERVs. And mind-blowing conclusions about the relative contemporaneity of the hobbits. (Explains the legends of little people in the area; another good example of the truths buried in oral traditions.)

                  •  DarkSyde hijacked his own diary? That's funny. (0+ / 0-)

                    And then (as with this little digression) we end up off the main science of your piece.

                    Try taking a little responsibility; you're the one doing the hijacking.

              •  God is the universe? (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                dougymi, armadillo

                We have a term for the universe--the universe.

                I am a revolting homosexual!

                by MAJeff on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:57:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We have at least 2 now (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon Wraight

                  God, universe.

                  I actually vaguely subscribe to that too.
                  Whenever anybody asks me if I believe in a an all-encompassing power that 'sees every sparrow fall' and everything you do and say, and judges us all after we die, I say yup.

                  The fact that what it judges us all fit for is generally worm food doesn't bother me much.  It's sort of the 'Stranger in a Strange Land' approach to religion.  Thou art God, grok?

                  Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                  by drbloodaxe on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:47:33 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  "won't bother reading the diary" (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                BYw

                Well, I appreciate your saving me a little time. Because I read that as "don't bother reading my comment."

                Tact: It's not just for sailors and grocery lists.

                There is only one presidential candidate.

                by OutOfManyOne on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:33:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  What you find useful has no bearing on what is (0+ / 0-)

                true. People use all sort of vocabularies for all sorts of things, but that doesn't change the factual status of the four options.

                It is difficult to conclude anything scientific

                Well duh. As for caricature, I think you do that to yourself.

              •  If you cant describe God, how can the... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                BYw

                concept of God be part of anything meaningful?

              •  One person anwering yes to #3 is an atheist (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Sharon Wraight

                It's a bit self centered to think we are the only ones in this vast universe. There was no option for other beings assisting in our evolution.  Surely in ancient times these other beings were presumed to be gods.  I'm fairly sure many humans would believe they were gods if they manifested themselves on earth today.  They were advances beings from other constellations.  If humans can manipulate DNA between species so can extra-terrestials.  They really screwed us up when they left in the lizard brain.

            •  This poll is fascinating... (1+ / 0-)

              74% of 10k Dkos users (who chose to participate in the poll) are essentially atheists?

              Am I reading that right? 3/4ths of us believe that there is no (interventionist) god?

              I know this is just in relation to evolution. But if God didn't have a hand in evolution, I can't imagine what he DID have a hand in (unless it's "created the universe/laws of physics, then kicked back to watch the fireworks").

              There is only one presidential candidate.

              by OutOfManyOne on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:30:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                OutOfManyOne, BYw

                it could explain why so many of us are political junkies.

                Current conditions in the US have it so that athiests are basically squeezed out of ever successfully running for office, so all we're fit for is ground troops for those who do profess to believing in the Total Information Awareness Agent in the Sky.  Pent up desire to participate more fully in politics with no outlet leaves us frothing around the edges continuously.  (In more ways than one, really.)

                Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                by drbloodaxe on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:51:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Also (0+ / 0-)

                  Good point. I think there's probably also something about cynicism and analysis that makes us believe in the politics that we do.

                  It's a classic argument, I guess. Those who question, think. And vice versa. And if you think and question, and vote based on your digestion of thought and answers, then you're pretty likely, IMO, to be one of us. :)

                  There is only one presidential candidate.

                  by OutOfManyOne on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:56:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  No, you aren't. Deists aren't atheists (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Coffee Geek

                and one doesn't even have to be a deist to think that God didn't intervene in human evolution. Why would an omniscient and omnipotent God need to intervene, when he could set things up at the beginning to come out just how he wants them?

                •  Good point -- in fact, I call myself a Deist (0+ / 0-)

                  But frankly, it's synonymous with atheism.

                  Or rather, believing in a non-interventionist god means (to me, anyway), that the "correct" answer to the question:

                  Is there a God?

                  Is:

                  It doesn't matter.

                  I guess I just don't see the difference between belief in a god that hasn't touched His creation since the Big Bang and belief in a godless universe.

                  Still, it'd be very interesting to see that 75% parsed out with the deist option included.

                  There is only one presidential candidate.

                  by OutOfManyOne on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:22:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, deism isn't synonymous with atheism. (0+ / 0-)

                    I guess I just don't see the difference between belief in a god that hasn't touched His creation since the Big Bang and belief in a godless universe.

                    I don't believe you, since you just articulated the difference.

                    Do you see no difference between someone who shoves a big tire to get it rolling, letting it fall where it may, and someone who does that but continues to run beside it, steering it when it starts to swerve?

                    •  That doesn't make any sense (0+ / 0-)

                      Somebody running beside the tire, helping steer it, is analogous to interventionism.

                      Deism is believing that somebody starting the tire rolling, then walked away. Atheism is believing that the tire is rolling because the mechanics of the universe are such that the tire is on a hill.

                      Consequentially, there's no difference.

                      I call myself a deist because I like the idea of a creator force. That's it. I like the idea. I believe in it the way I believe, say, The Wire is the best show on TV. It's a preference.

                      Because there's no difference between it and atheism. But deism is  more fun. :)

                      There is only one presidential candidate.

                      by OutOfManyOne on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 01:09:07 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  "consequentially"? (0+ / 0-)

                        Look, there's a difference between starting the tire rolling and walking away (deism), and a tire rolling because it falls off a hill (atheism), but you said you couldn't see the difference between those beliefs, and now you say "consequentially" about something that isn't consequential at all. Talk about not making sense.

                        But you're right that I offered an example showing adistinction between deism and interventionalist theism, not deism and atheism; musta been some sort of brain fart.

                        •  As in "of consequence" (0+ / 0-)

                          That is, I could have said it "Crucially, there is no difference." Or a variation on the meaning: "It follows that there's no difference."

                          Since that's an uncommon usage, but doesn't contribute greater meaning than its more common synonyms, I guess my diction's a bit suspect.

                          Still, I'm not sure how that doesn't make sense. Maybe I'm not getting your meaning?

                          Semantics aside, my point is this:

                          Neither Atheism nor Deism allow for an interventionist God. That means that functionally (even when functioning as a system of "belief"), they're equivalent. If you believe that there doesn't exist an interventionist God, then everything else is dressing and spice.

                          I like the idea of a Deistic god, so that's what I pour on my spiritual salad. :)

                          There is only one presidential candidate.

                          by OutOfManyOne on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:46:42 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  your conclusion doesn't follow from the data (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                BYw

                Not believing in a creationist god doesn't equal athiest. there are millions of people that are ancestor worshipers and other types of anamists that do not rely on a creation myth but they do belive in spooks.

                •  Spookin' on god (0+ / 0-)

                  I suppose that's true. Though it's hard to validate a belief system that doesn't include creationism or interventionism.

                  That said, what proportion of religious beliefs include  neither? I'd imagine it's slim.

                  Slim enough that it wouldn't make much dent in that 74%.

                  There is only one presidential candidate.

                  by OutOfManyOne on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:26:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  that would have worked better for me (6+ / 0-)

      I think there was some sort of Divine spark setting off creation in general, but my vote might indicate I think there was some old white guy in the sky deciding that apes would shift to humans at some point, and I certainly don't think that. The traditions of witchcraft I'm allied with don't even have anything like a "creation myth" but we do believe in God/dess energy  in everything, creating everything.

      -7.75, -6.05 The point of the war in Iraq is that there IS a war in Iraq- Keith Olbermann

      by nicolemm on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:41:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, the poll is reductionist (9+ / 0-)

      There are many concepts of God. Unfortunately, most biologists, being agnostics, can't appreciate the gnostic's experience or understanding of God.

      This article is great informaton and should stand on its own, and doesn't need to be buttressed by the usual socio-political debate about evolution. That's extreme reductionism and not worthy of inclusion in the otherwise excellent detailed understanding of the evolutionary processes described.

      •  How (8+ / 0-)

        about George Bush?

        • Good President?
        • Greatest President?

        :) Thanks for the compliment on the article btw. I bitch about poll wording also, I've seen some real doozies that aren't too far from that spoof. But if you were going to write the human evo poll, how would you word it?

        Read UTI, your free thought forum

        by DarkSyde on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:25:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Personally, (0+ / 0-)

          I would simply add Joy Busey's input to your existing list; something like:

          o Natural selection (genetic reduction/mutation) is scientifically proven, yet new species show a historical pattern of getting more complex genetics over time. I'm waiting for a verifiable explanation of how.

          Many scientists don't seem to find this a reasonable hesitation towards the theory of evolution, but there's more than enough mysteries in deep space and in front of our noses to make it a legitimate item to ponder.

          Argue for your limitations and you own them - bach

          by dRefractor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:19:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gene duplication is one well known source of (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            BYw

            increased complexity. Our immune system is a highly analyzed example of genes duplicating and then diverging. If you want to know something, you should read the literature rather than "wait" for the answers to be delivered to you.

            •  two things (0+ / 0-)

              1. If the scientific community wishes to convince me, they have but to state their evidence. I'm smart enough to understand it, really.
              1. gene duplication is hardly the same as creating unique genetic code instructions unless you are implying that by "diverging". Are you and if so is this a theory or an observed fact?

              My brother in-law is the science head of a significant secondary education school district and he was not able to describe to me how genetic code instructions have become more complicated over the eons, but he assured me that it has via evolution. Sorry, not good enough. Darksyde's diary is great as far as it goes, and I'm not trying to argue for creationism by any stretch of the imagination, but until you or someone else bothers to describe how new unique genetic code is created, then I will remain in the camp of the undecided...

              Argue for your limitations and you own them - bach

              by dRefractor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:03:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The scientific community publishes in journals. (0+ / 0-)

                I'm smart enough to understand it, really.

                Not given how dumb your comments here are.

                gene duplication is hardly the same as creating unique genetic code instructions unless you are implying that by "diverging".

                Uh, have you ever heard of mutation? They duplicated, then diverged through mutation.

                Are you and if so is this a theory or an observed fact?

                What part of "Our immune system is a highly analyzed example" don't you understand?

                My brother in-law is the science head of a significant secondary education school district and he was not able to describe to me how genetic code instructions have become more complicated over the eons

                Then either he's a poor explainer or you're too dumb to understand, or both.

                I will remain in the camp of the undecided...

                Bully for you. If you ever decide to stop being an ignoramus, go read some basic textbooks on evolution or take a course, or go hang out on PandasThumb.org, where lots of evolutionary biologists hang out, and they'll set you straight, if that's possible.

        •  good enough poll for 10.7K Kossacks at this time (0+ / 0-)

          ran out of room for the n/t, so I guess I'll babble a bit.

          I don't think the poll takes away from the article; I think it draws people in to read the rest, and if it's not quite what they expected, they actually come away with something even better in the remaining article, then get to wonder if having read and watched the videos might even lead them to change their answer.

          Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

          by drbloodaxe on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:55:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  As I explain above.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        drbloodaxe

        As I explained above, I think the poll is intended to be a scientific poll, not a religious poll.  The question is a scientific question about how life evolved, not a religious question about one's conception of "God."  All of the options in the poll embody the most popular beliefs about how life evolved, which is a purely scientific question.

      •  many are agnostic? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        drbloodaxe

        or atheistic? Not sure why you assume an agnostic wouldn't appreciate the gnostic's understanding of god... In order to be agnostic you have to accept the possibility of some form of higher power, just as you acknowledge the possibility of none.

        Argue for your limitations and you own them - bach

        by dRefractor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:24:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's not about your understanding of God. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BYw

        It's about a) whether human beings evolved from other animals and b) whether God -- however experienced or understood -- guided that evolution.

    •  That question would also be iimiting (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sharon Wraight

      I agree with you, but without a poll on what the meaning of the God Concept, we  are going to be limited.

  •  Science "intelligently designed' by God (7+ / 0-)

    Long before humans evolved and before the Big Bang happened, the laws of science were put into motion.

    I believe that these laws were crafted by a supreme being, and per that plan, we happened, and not by accident or chance.

    Progressive, Unitarian, Independent, Vermonter

    by Opinionated Ed on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:08:50 AM PDT

    •  David Hume would say.... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hideinplainsight, mcmom

      Prove that these laws will stay the same forever.  Just because the sun came up today, and every other day of your life, doesn't mean it will tomorrow.

      The best you can say is that based on past experience it will, but you can't prove that it is an immutable law.

      "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

      by cometman on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:16:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Speed of light may have changed (0+ / 0-)

        Speed of light may have changed recently (July 2004 article).  

        Of course, that doesn't mean that the speed of light is not based on "constant" laws of physics, simply that we don't understand all of those laws.

        •  I wholeheartedly beleive in science.... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          drbloodaxe

          but we've got a long way to go before we have a complete understanding of its laws, and by the time we do, other events may have occurred to change those laws somewhat.

          I've suspected that these physical constants are merely a way to fudge things and make equations balance.  It's simply another way of saying' We don't completely understand this part yet' so were going to throw in a constant to make equations match the experimental results.  

          Take the particle physics equations used to describe the subatomic particles used in the standard model.  There are so many constants involved which appear to have no relation to each other whatsoever, I suspect that much more work is needed before we truly understand how atoms work.

          "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

          by cometman on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:40:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your suspicion is funny and ignorant. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            BYw

            There is one such constant,the cosmological constant, which Einstein introduced and later said was his greatest error. But lately it has been revived due to dark matter and dark energy. But generally, constants aren't "fudged to make the equations match the experimental results", the equations are the consequences of experimental results and the constants are what those results demand.

            There are so many constants involved which appear to have no relation to each other whatsoever, I suspect that much more work is needed before we truly understand how atoms work.

            Certainly, but that has nothing to do with what you said. The constants weren't pulled out of someone's ass, they're the result of empirical measurement.

          •  Its important to make a key destinction: (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            BYw

            I believe in the scientific process. That is the currently accepted results of that process may change over the course of time. Disproving our current understanding of how things work, is not disproving the method under which we devised those understandings. If further evidence were to unveil a superior intelligent species that did design our own (technically causing our understanding to coincide with the intelligent designers, however not quite the way they may want) we would believe that. But the method of conducting research and basing non biased explanations based upon that research would still be the same and we would have no reason to apologize for not coming to that conclusion when the evidence did not support it.

            •  Thanks... (0+ / 0-)

              You said it better than I could.  I wasn't trying to discount the scientific process at all, just to mention that we don't have everything figured out yet.

              Newton wasn't wrong, but Einstein showed that his notions needed to be modified somewhat.  One builds on the other.

              "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

              by cometman on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:38:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I've been out of science too long (0+ / 0-)

          But I don't see why they're picking on the speed of light necessarily.

          That equation has 3 components on the other side.  Why pick on c, as opposed to plank's constant, for example.  Did they just like the speed of light best because it possibly allows them to explain a few other puzzlers?

          But I actually like it, it makes the world a bit more like Discworld ;)

          Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

          by drbloodaxe on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:05:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I prefer (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      geez53

      "God" as designed by social scientists and religious (b)Leeders.

      What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

      by agnostic on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:18:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Me too (5+ / 0-)

      Things are too perfect, IMO, for it to be an accident.

      But that is a teaching of faith, not science or history.

      I just don't want my faith precluded in science or history. Otherwise, people can believe what they want to.

      McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'

      by DAVE DIAL on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:51:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Too Perfect?? You mean HIV/AIDS, SARS, H5N1 (0+ / 0-)

        MS, Polio,..... how long a list do you want?
        There is a teaching of Homocide, fratracide and Genocide. all conducted under name of faith. The spanish Inqusition was a matter of faith and history and yes the Spanish and other national Catholics made a science of torture.

        I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat. -Will Rogers

        by geez53 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:02:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perfect? Pffft right, (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          BYw

          my aching butt back.

          Alito. Kennedy. Roberts. Scalia. Thomas.
          More important than ever: ERA NOW!

          by greeseyparrot on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:22:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Perfect in the workings (6+ / 0-)

          Perfect in the workings, not always the results. The blood flowing through the veins, the heart beating, the lungs sucking in oxygen and omitting carbon dioxide, which the trees use for photosynthesis and release the oxygen we need to live.

          I am talking about the Earth, and how everything goes together, and the universe not yet totally explained.

          Catholics also had a vital hand in western universities being places of learning. First through theology, history and philosophy and then medicine and law.

          Yes, faith has been used as a weapon, but the faithful are not responsible for the sins of every religious leader no more than any other doctrine, occupation or attribute is responsible for people of the same.

          McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'

          by DAVE DIAL on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:23:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then why not create.... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            armadillo, BYw

            beings who don't need oxygen?

            The first life forms seem to have used hydrogen and found oxygen to be quite poisonous.  They actually depleted much of the hygrogen from the early atmosphere and were forced to get their nourishment from water, good old H2O.  But by taking the hydrogen from H20 instead of atmospheric H2, they released oxygen into the atmosphere which was a poison to most of the microbial creatures at the time.  But not the organisms that became our mitochondria.

            These little buggers were able to use oxygen for energy.  At one point, they formed a symbiotic relationship with other microbes, where they took the poisonous oxygen and converted it to energy used to power the other microbe they had combined with.  These organisms evolved to become ever more complex until we got the creatures we see on earth today.  It seems to be a pretty good theory when you realize that the mitochondria in our cells have different DNA than that in the nucleus of our cells.

            The problem is, that while fixing oxygen to power the rest of the cell, the mitochondria release free radicals which basically bombard our DNA causing it to reproduce with abnormalities over time which we know as aging.

            Couldn't god, if he/she/it really cared about us, kept those damn mitochondria from screwing up our DNA and causing us to die?  That would seem to be an imperfect way of working to me, but I don't consider the entire process to be finished quite yet.

            "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

            by cometman on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:16:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Who is to say (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              cappy, Iowa Dem

              Who is to say he/she/they didn't? Maybe we are but one 'experiment' out of millions or billions.

              I don't have all the answers, that's for sure. I just want to be able to have my faith and learn about science/history too. I don't others to have to have my same beliefs, but I don't want others telling me I can't have, or degrading, mine.

              Maybe there is some bigger plan than anyone knows of. Like I said, I have no idea if that is true or not.

              But I like to listen to my Priest and think about a God who loves us and will be there when I die.

              And maybe, just maybe, hook me up with that interactive DVD and TV so I can watch and interact with the beginings of Earth.

              McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'

              by DAVE DIAL on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:36:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  YOU said it's perfect. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                BYw

                You claim to have all the answers, and then when questioned pretend you didn't.

                I just want to be able to have my faith and learn about science/history too.

                Who is stopping you?

                I don't others to have to have my same beliefs, but I don't want others telling me I can't have, or degrading, mine.

                Tough shit; you believe some rather stupid stuff, on rather foolish grounds.

          •  How could something not be perfect in doing (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            BYw

            exactly what it does? That's a tautology. And if you mean that  hearts are perfect for pumping blood, that's absurdly false.

            I am talking about the Earth, and how everything goes together

            Tautology. It's like being amazed that all the pieces of a broken coffee cup fit together. Beyond that, all species co-evolve ... that's fundamental to the theory of evolution.

            the universe not yet totally explained

            Uh, so? God of the gaps is rather foolish. Will you stop believing when it is explained, or are you simply confident that you will always have a gap to hide in?

            One of the reasons I'm an atheist is that all the arguments people put forth for God are so patently stupid.

      •  The idea of a "perfect" world is in the eye (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BYw

        of the beholder, but evolution by natural selection will produce a world in which life forms seem to be designed.  All we see are the survivors and we see them only for a short time.  And the world of evolution by natural selection is also highly variable, even within our own species.  Evolution by natural selection produces varieties of our own species and even produces varieties of cultures and religions.

        According to many of my devout friends, "God works in mysterious ways," but evolution by natural selection works in very clear, well understood ways.  And we understand more every day.  As we do, God becomes less relevant.  

        The United States is probably the last stronghold of the interventionist, active God of Christianity.  Even where that God thrives in other nations, it depends on support and energy from American worshippers.  Once the God of Christianity recedes in America He will recede everywhere.

        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

        by hestal on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:05:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Faith it is (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BYw

        Faith is so much easier than getting an education and critical thinking. Just imagine the answer and there it is. You're done.

        Too bad this doesn't work for algebra.

        "Question authority and the authorities will question you." Now more than ever!
        I remember when all of America was a free speech zone.

        by armadillo on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:42:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Pangloss: this is the best of all possible (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BYw

        worlds. Sorry, but your thinking is steeped in fallacy.

        I just don't want my faith precluded in science or history.

        What the hell does that mean? The history of science is the precluding of false beliefs that are contradicted by evidence.

        Otherwise, people can believe what they want to.

        How generous of you.

    •  Who Said This? (10+ / 0-)

      "Science describes what happens and how, while Religion decides who gets credit."

    •  The laws of ... physics, you must mean ... (0+ / 0-)

      couldn't have been put into motion before the BB; that's incoherent, as the laws describe what happens.

      As for science, it's a human enterprise and doesn't have laws, although it does have methodology.

      Rather than believing whatever is your fancy, I'd suggest getting a scientific education.

      •  You are pissing up the wrong tree... (0+ / 0-)

        Rather than believing whatever is your fancy, I'd suggest getting a scientific education.

        Are you suggesting that the laws of physics invented themselves just as the Big Bang happened, and if an identical event happened a bit earlier than things would've turned out different?

        We don't really know, but your remark makes you sound like a nitpicking jackass.

        that's incoherent, as the laws describe what happens.

        Your statement is the incoherent one. The laws set into motion what will happen, theories describe what we believe may have happened.

        Progressive, Unitarian, Independent, Vermonter

        by Opinionated Ed on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:17:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Need Another Vote Option (12+ / 0-)

    How about:
    Humans evolved from earlier primates over millions of years.  God allowed the natural variations and processes He created to determine the outcome.

    "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -George S. Patton

    by vmibran on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:08:55 AM PDT

    •  I like that much better n/t (5+ / 0-)

      If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

      by marykk on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:12:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Change it to he or she. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DarkSyde, marykk, whytwolf, Rick Winrod

      We don't know whether God is masculine, feminine, or neither.  My best guess is neither.

      •  yeah (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        drbloodaxe, BYw, Mule at Rossem

        I'm not touching that one :)

        The thing about the poll, one of the reasons I included it, is, well partly because I was curious, but I wanted to give Kossacks who are skeptical of evo a way to express themselves without bringing the wrath down on their heads. This isn't directed at you Houston, I'm just using this slot to explain something: I don't know if we really understand how intimidating we can be, even unintentionally. If a progressive who happens to hold creationist views comes in here and says so on a thread like this, there are members who will take a vicious whack at them just because they're creationists.

        I want creationists here in discussion. One, because they're welcome here just like any other member in good standing, and two because they bring up points that foster healthy debate and might even make us learn something we wouldn't otherwise have bothered with.

        Read UTI, your free thought forum

        by DarkSyde on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:10:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, I'm pretty sure (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vmibran, BYw

        'The Cosmic Wang' theory dictates that He must be the He with the largest 'wang' of all, which is why most churches have been reluctant to allow women to serve as priests, knowing that their lack of 'wang' renders them inherently lacking in GodPower (TM).

        In the Far East, this is known as 'Yang', because they didn't have the 'Right' alphabet, and it also explains why the origin of the universe is known as the 'Big Bang'.

        Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

        by drbloodaxe on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:15:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "God" also "created evil" (6+ / 0-)

      "I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light and create the darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things."

                               - Isaiah 45: 6, 7

      And all this time Jerry Falwell had been blaming it on gay people.


      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! - President Merkin Muffley

      by AlyoshaKaramazov on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:39:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why God? If a Supreme Being(s) existed, do you (6+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sagesource, lightiris, mcmom, AuntieM, geez53, BYw

      really believe things would be as screwed up as they are now? WE are killing our planet-is this part of a Cosmic Plan- and if it is who's responsible the Almighty or us?
      The primary evolution of our belief system appears to have sprung for a desire for power by priest/kings (do what I say or you'll roast in hell).
      Don't mean to insult anyone, I just don't understand Mankind's need for a master.

      "He does what politicians do," explained Jeremiah Wright.

      by hideinplainsight on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:48:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]