Internet life vs Real life... Strikes and Supporters

While you've probably been under a rock if you haven't heard about the "writer's strike" here at kos, I wanted to throw my two cents in and share an experience I had this weekend hanging out with a room full of Clinton supporters for a few hours. This latest temper tantrum might be the most asinine, laughable thing I've seen yet from Clinton supporters during the nomination contest. More below the fold...

This weekend I took a trip up to DC to spend some time with my brother and first cousin who both live there. My cousin's boyfriend works for Hillary Clinton and has spent the last several months traveling around the country as a field director... Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, California, Texas and soon Pennsylvania and North Carolina. He's spent the last several months working 18-20 hour days for his candidate. Obviously, he loves Hillary Clinton and thinks she would make a great President.

I had the opportunity to meet him last night along with several of his coworkers, and needless to say, the topic of conversation quickly turned to the campaign. Initially, I feared the worst, that I would end up in an irrational screaming match with people whose views couldn't be more different than my own when it came to Obama and Hillary. However, I was pleasantly surprised when we managed to get through a whole hour of discussion without once raising our voices or personally insulting each other. We respected each others viewpoints, and we respected the fact that intelligent people could look at a set of facts and circumstances and come to opposite conclusions.

They are all are smart, hard-working, determined people who happen to think Hillary would be the best candidate and best President.
Additionally, they are intimately involved in working to get her elected, and I have tremendous respect for what they're doing, and we'll need their energy no matter who our candidate is come fall. And here's what I heard from them to a person: "We like Barack Obama, we just don't think he's ready yet." This is a legitimate concern, and while it's not a concern of mine, I can certainly see their point.

I think what amazes me most is the stark difference between the Hillary supporters I meet in person and those I run across online. For every alegre or taylor marsh who make me want to puke with their desire to rip apart Obama, I meet people like these who restore my faith in our ability to reconcile in time for November.

So to alegre and the other Clinton supporters who are boycotting Kos: Good riddance. Take your diatribes, your invective and your self pity elsewhere. Get outside and do some work for your candidate instead of inciting flame wars online. Go meet people like my cousin's boyfriend who are Clinton supporters and also members of the reality-based community; who recognize both candidates weaknesses as well as their strengths. Or just go flame at a pro-Clinton spot, whether mydd, talkleft or taylor marsh. Whatever you choose, you won't be missed.

•  Tip Jar

  by Acacia951 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:04:24 PM PDT

•  Speak for yourself...

  I'll miss some of the departed.

  :-)

  by Trix on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:07:02 PM PDT

  •  I don't mind reasoned debate

    In fact I think it's great... But it's just about damn near impossible to get in the blogosphere right now.

    by Acacia951 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:08:18 PM PDT

    •  And you blame that solely on Clinton supporters?

      by Trix on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:08:53 PM PDT

      •  Of course not

        Obamaites are equally culpable. There are just as many of us who are detached from the reality based community as there are Clinton supporters.

        by Acacia951 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:10:00 PM PDT

        •  Okay...

          But if you're open to reasoned debate (and I'm not disputing that), saying good riddance to people who disagree with you probably isn't the best way to go about that.

          :-)

          by Trix on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:11:39 PM PDT

          •  That's not reasoned debate

            That was the whole point of this diary. Reasoned debate comes from talking through ideas without personal attacks. I firmly believe both candidates are electable, and I also think Hillary would probably be a pretty damn good President. I just think Obama is more electable and would make a better President.

            :-)

            by Acacia951 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:13:01 PM PDT

            •  Fair enough...

              I think this qualified as reasoned debate.

              :-)

              by Trix on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:13:35 PM PDT

              •  Errr... qualifies... not qualified :) n/t

                by Trix on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:13:54 PM PDT

                •  Yes... that it does

                  alegre's steady drumbeat of diaries lionizing Hillary and trashing Obama was not reasoned debate. It was, dare I say, almost cult like in its reverence.

                  by Acacia951 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:16:25 PM PDT

                  •  Her diaries were fine at first...

                    ... but as Dallasdoc said earlier, her writing followed the tone of the Clinton campaign very closely, so when it got ugly, so did the diaries.

                    Too bad she couldn't have kept on with the positive ones.

                    by highacidity on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:18:29 PM PDT

                    •  I partially agree with that...

                      but I think the changing tone of her diaries was also a reflection of/response to the tone of many in this community towards Clinton supporters.

                      by Trix on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:20:03 PM PDT

                      •  Yeah. I tried a couple of times...

                        ... to go in those diaries and ride herd on the obnoxious Obama "supporters" but it took a lot of time. And that was in addition to disagreeing with the diarist too ;-)

                        by highacidity on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:36:47 PM PDT

                  •  I could say the same thing about...

                    certain Obama supporters... but I won't.

                    :-)

                    by Trix on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:18:29 PM PDT

                    •  LOL of course....

                      by Acacia951 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:20:59 PM PDT

      •  YES.

        by jj24 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:42:52 PM PDT

  •  I see the diarist's point...

    ... especially after meeting some Clinton supporters who are nothing like what you read on this and even worse, on other sites.

    If some of the most virulent ones can return and make up for the badness that was said, well that would be good, but as things stand now, I understand Acacia...

    I wish all of the Clinton supporters were like you (at least how you are on the internets, not sure about the real you and that Spitzer thing ;-)

    [disclaimer: I know there have been a-holes "advocating" for all the candidates at some time or another, except for Gravel (can't diss the Gravelanche!) but I speak for what I perceive here... YMMV.]

    by highacidity on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:14:50 PM PDT

    •  LOL @ that Spitzer thing

      I'm much cooler in real life.

      :-)

      by Trix on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:15:51 PM PDT

•  I can only speak to

  the diaries by alegre in the last month or so -- when faced with actual questions re: Clinton -- they are ignored or ridiculed without substantive response.  I'm not talking about the nastiness of Obama supporters who highjack the diary -- I'm talking about legitimate issues.  What I read were snotty responses and ditto-head support from the predictable commenters.  Some Clinton supporters attempted to actually engage in debate, but the diarist consistently sabotaged her own and their arguments.

  There are Clinton supporters who are hanging in here -- I respect them when they attempt to present issues - and I resent the knee-jerk reaction by Obama supporters to trash them.

  by gchaucer2 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:18:47 PM PDT

  •  I respect that and agree with that

    I think there are plenty of Obama supporters out there who are detached from the RBC too... And its hard watching them go nuts when legitimate points (i.e. experience or lack thereof) are raised.

    by Acacia951 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:20:39 PM PDT

    •  Agree

      I tend to ignore the "worshipers" from both camps and search out reasoned arguments.  Anyone who can't engage rationally in discussions re: Obama's weak points is deluding him or herself and won't be a persuasive advocate in the long-run.

      by gchaucer2 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:22:51 PM PDT

•  It really shouldn't be so hard for

  Clinton and Obama supporters to be agreeable, considering that there's hardly a sliver of daylight between their positions on important issues. Unfortunately the internets make it all too easy to engage in infantile flamewars instead of discussing differences of opinion like adults....nice thing we still have the real world as a place to do that..

  by Alice in Florida on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:23:29 PM PDT

  •  That might be the reason, right there.

    When it's harder to find substantive policy divisions between the two, it means we start picking apart the last substantive differences, and inflate them to the point of critical.  

    That's not to say Clinton and Obama are identical, but they overlap far more than they differ.  

    by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:36:37 PM PDT

    •  *least, not last

      by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:43:43 PM PDT

•  IMO, your reasoning does not support

  your conclusion .... It amounts to post hoc, ergo propter hoc. The fact that there are many reasonable supporters of HRC does not prove that the diarists are unreasonable in striking/boycotting. In a democracy, they should be entitled to their position. They do have a point in that there are blogstorms of vitriol, simply based on the choice of candidate. That fact doesn't go away. There is plenty of angst on several sides, and those who come to the site for analysis of issues find it to be a waste of valuable time and space. Make your arguments; if they're good, you'll get a fair hearing in a fair forum. The diaries on Obama's legislative record and style, IMO, were a very valuable contribution worth being read by all Democrats, whether you support Obama or not. If people want to do something constructive, IMO they would be better off focusing energy on opposition research on Johm McCain, so they are prepared to make the case for  the Democratic nominee, whomever wins the primary. The contentless blogswarms are becoming an actual impediment toward the general election, in that they are wasting time and turning off Democratic voters. The people who have left have a right to make their point, and the fact that it appeared so quickly in the obstructionist and mischevious commercial media should be a wake-up call to the peanut gallery.

  by jfdunphy on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:42:40 PM PDT

•  perfect diary, loved the last paragraph.

  it really says it all.

  this reminds me SO MUCH of the 2004 election, except the virulent online mob supported bush.  it was intolerable, and nothing like talking to people in "real" life who supported GWB.  every topic had particular posters who focused on that issue, and responded to every. fucking. post.  they usually started by personal attacks, but always ended with them.  and always the victimy whining whenever they were bettered ... it wore us all down.

  it is, imo, the result of online campaigning.  i wonder who would come out of the woodwork as campaign operatives if they had to divulge when they were working/volunteering.

  what's sad, sickening, tiring, annoying, nauseating - is that this IS just like 2004, complete with the kind of coordinated undercutting that very well could ensure our populist demise, once again.  question is, if this is successful, what will we do?

  by jj24 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:52:31 PM PDT