Daily Kos

the argument - a contrarian view

Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:49:04 AM PDT

As the Democratic primary battle continues, we continue to hear concern that it will damage the party, that we need quickly to come together and refocus our attacks on John McCain and not on one another.   After all, many party officials will say, it is hard to imagine any scenario where Clinton can catch up with Obama in elected delegates and only barely possible that she could in popular vote, and of course it is too late for her to catch him in states won.  Yesterday I heard this argument from one of the most important Democrats in Virginia, who argued that we needed to get field operations organized as part of a unified party, and it was hard to do that until they knew for whom they were organizing. All of this constitutes the argument

I am an Obama supporter.  I fully expect that he will be the nominee at the end of the day.  And I have decided that I disagree with this argument, which is the conventional wisdom of most Obama supporters.

As I look back earlier in this cycle, Obama was not an effective debater.  The numerous debates have enabled him to hone his skill to the point that he would be a formidable obstacle for any Republican, and clearly will be a commanding presence on a stage with John McCain.   That is one indication of the advantages of an extensive campaign.

While I have great concern about the types of attacks offered by the Clinton campaign - and have explained why I view her campaign as a justifiable reason not to support her - I think even these are actually serving a positive purpose.   Obama is receiving a far more thorough vetting than he might have received absent a continued vigorous campaign.  He has had time and opportunity to work out his responses, and as the coverage of his explanation of Rezko by the Chicago papers demonstrates, this enables him to take even areas of potential weakness and use them to demonstrate once again his strengths - his willingness for transparency, his ability to handlo the questions thrown at him by the press, his core integrity.  And in the process he may realize that he is fully capable of winning the press to his side sufficiently to offset whatever McCain has gained over the years in his "straight-talk" approach to the press.   And the openness OBama is showing may even force McCain to have to answer questions about things he has avoided in the past as he has used his chumminess with those who cover him to sidestep direct challenges on more troublesome areas.  

But what I have written is subtext, and not the core of why I take a contrarian view.  That core has two main parts, and a third possible additional one.

The first is I think that by allowing the Clinton campaign to continue further, say through May 6 and NC and Indiana, Clinton supporters will see they have had every opportunity to try to make their case to persuade Democrats to their point of view and will not feel resentful that party elders stepped in and deprived them of that opportunity.   At some point it will be necessary to bring the process to an end.  As an Obama supporter I do not fret about Pennsylvania.  My own opinion is that Clinton will win the state by less than double digits in the popular vote, and I accept the current assessment of Chris Bowers that she is likely to gain an advantage of at most 10 delegates.  While people like Mark Penn might want to try to use that as part of their big state argument, the acknowledgment by Governor Rendell that either Obama or Clinton could win the state in the general election will undercut that argument.  And absent a huge win in Pennsylvania, which I do not see happening, Obama will win NC , probably comfortably, and will do no worse than split in Indiana.  At that point the numbers will be so overwhelming that Clinton will be unable to close the gap.  If we assume that at the end of May 6 Obama's lead among elected delegates remains anything near its current margin, of around 150, consider this:

May 13 West Virginia 28
May 20 Kentucky 51
       Oregon 52
June 1  Puerto Rico     55
June 3 Montana        16
       South Dakota 15

TOTAL additional       217

Now those numbers include District-level, At-large and PLEO delegates, but not super-delegates. And even were Clinton to win 70% of these delegates, which is not really possible, she would still trail in total delegates.  In fact, were Obama to go into May 13 with a 150 elected delegate lead, and he were to do no better than split the 73 delegates in Oregon, MT and SD 36-37, there would be less delegates left (144) than his margin.

So at some point the numbers will become impossible.   Not yet, not even after Pennsylvania.

In the meantime, the process of continuing the primary contest means that Obama staffers and volunteers are out making every effort at registering additional voters - in Pennsylvania some of what is happening is getting independents and Republicans to re-register as Democrats, and in all states it is getting new voters to register for the first time.  I think it might be easier to get people to register when they are going to vote in the very near term - a primary or caucus - rather than 5-6 months in the future in a general election.  I believe the continued primary contest means the Democratic party has a chance to significantly expand the electorate in its favor, and this will have positive consequences not only in the presidential contest, but also in down-ballot races. At the same time the Obama campaign and local Democrats will have the opportunity to develop networks and structures that will be useful in the general election campaign.  

There is an additional reason, but one which can cut both ways.  A continued contest means a continuation of intense media scrutiny.  Granted, that could magnify any missteps, and of course reporter will be inclined to maximize any possible discord they detect between the camps of Clinton and Obama, as it makes for a good story line.  But in the meantime, it provides massive free media, during a period of time when McCain may have struggle for media oxygen.  And the continued high visibility of Obama will get people more used to the idea of seeing him as commander in chief, as someone who would be coming into their living rooms for four years as their president.

So that is my contrarian view.  I think it is beneficial for the primary contest to continue, with vigorous competition, at least through May 6.  I think overall it will benefit Obama in the Fall.  And as an Obama supporter, I believe the continued scrutiny is to his long-term benefit.  

I suspect that many reading this will disagree in part or in full with my analysis.   So be it.  And Clinton supporters are likely to argue that even after May 6 it is still possible that she could close the elected delegate count toa point where the superdelegates could make the difference in her favor.  About that latter point, I think it worth noting that if one divides superdelegates into elected office holders and others, Obama is now either ahead or even among elected superdelegates, and Clinton's entire margin comes from DNC officials and the like.  And I think those superdelegates who must directly face the voters would be very reluctant to overturn the nation wide decision of millions of Americans in giving Obama a clear majority of elected delegates.  At the end of the day, I will be surprised if his margin among elected delegates is much lower than his current margin, and I would be shocked if it drops below 100.   And then, having survived a vigorous contest he will be a better position to reach out to Clinton supporters, who will feel that they have had a more sufficient opportunity to make the case for their candidate, to bring the party together, and to take advantage of the excitement and interested generated by the continued contest.

What do you think?

Peace.

Tags: conventional wisdom, contrarian view, continued primary battle, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, primaries, media, Ed Rendell, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Indiana, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 333 comments

  •  offered for your kind consideration (230+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Karmakin, JekyllnHyde, boydog, pb, Joe Willy, Chi, ogre, copymark, Jeff Simpson, TaraIst, Emerson, dengre, rincewind, scrutinizer, kpardue, theran, RFK Lives, drobnox, object16, zeroooo, pacific city, bigforkgirl, Polarmaker, joynow, bronte17, kayebee, indybend, wvtrailerdweller, mentaldebris, petercjack, megs, rustydude, barath, amanuensis, wishingwell, CodeTalker, FriendlyNeighbor, navajo, dmsilev, SneakySnu, mayan, ammaloy, psnyder, emmasnacker, pat bunny, johanus, churchylafemme, grrr, lcrp, bwintx, svotaw1992, Donna in Rome, ybruti, side pocket, KayCeSF, American in Kathmandu, eve, bellers, beckperson, pat208, bibble, Bandaloo, Fabian, sd4david, radarlady, jrooth, DianeNYS, Jeffersonian Democrat, baccaruda, JanetT in MD, revbludge, SherwoodB, Chinton, irate, PBen, sap, kamarvt, jhutson, Omir the Storyteller, huckleberry, devadatta, cfk, LABobsterofAnaheim, Barcelona, lauramp, Dapremonster, western star, Splicer, Circle, JanL, empathy, Land of Enchantment, dus7, esquimaux, juliewolf, gwilson, BachFan, Fasaha, eddienic, Kimball Cross, cazimi, the biped, koNko, kestrel9000, Samwoman, abe57, taversoe, 123frenchwine, akasha, hideinplainsight, Hobbitfoot, sravaka, tecampbell, figleef, agnostic, FireCrow, bleeding heart, Preston S, Potus2020, Demena, AnnieS, profh, va dare, MadMs, Compostings, lamdat, crystal eyes, mlbx2, orrg1, Wordie, Morgan in Austin, bvljac, dotsright, SomeStones, dgdeakin, Loudoun County Dem, moodyinsavannah, cfaller96, Great Uncle Bulgaria, adamschloss, andy winer, Matt Z, whytwolf, DWG, Casey Morris, dmg40, manwithnoname, chicago jeff, Coolwateroverstones, thursdays child, millwood, sqz23, citydem, slowheels, KJC MD, Puffin, sable, on the cusp, Empower Ink, breezeview, Red no more, Justus, KevinLV, maizenblue, cruz, zerone, Fast Bike, Involuntary Exile, pepper mint, swen eiknuj, cabaretic, alasmoses, CenFlaDem, eyesonthestreet, karpaty, ankey, rubine, tsqd, LCA, BlueStateRedhead, a night owl, nzanne, Progressive Traditionalist, Dewey Kneadleeders, nklein, Spidey47, goshzilla, angelino, ryangoesboom, cybrestrike, ksduck, Independant Man, Zorge, Fonsia, Texanomaly, snackdoodle, Tim in CA, PapiGonzo, DemocraticOz, pvlb, butchergirl, BlackBox, FrankNL, earicicle, math monkey, shoshaku jushaku, erin r, ncaldem, oak510, smartheart, mama hearts obama, Ivey476, Myrrhis, sarashina nikki, Christian Coulon, TuvanDrone, Leslie in KY, marley619, Juan4All, Shelley99, Dark UltraValia, Keith Slater, itsolivia, Question Authority, vadasz, drjknock, DaNang65, JulieUnplugged, Livvy5, Emalene

    as to recommends, comments, and/or tips.

    I will be interested, as always, in whatever response you may choose to offer.

    I claim no great expertise or insight.

    I came to this position while driving home from an intense 2.5 day political leadership program.  It is a product of that direct experience, of the reading I have done recently, and of the reflection of the past week or more.

    FWIW

    Peace.

    Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

    by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:52:05 AM PDT

    •  umm - how did this make Recommended list (29+ / 0-)

      more than an hour after being posted?  I admit my surprise at seeing it here.

      This is NOT a complaint.  In fact I am delighted.  I hope it provides an occasion for a bit more dialog, even if its stay is as brief as I would expect.

      Peace.

      Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

      by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:15:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  picking up more and more (14+ / 0-)

        recommends as people wake up!

        Don't tell me you're a patriot. Let me find it out for myself.

        by indybend on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:18:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I read the paper first. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          teacherken

          Sorry.

          Be outrageous, ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can produce. --Molly Ivins

          by sap on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:19:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not a problem from my standpoint (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            sap

            I still have not finished my Sunday paper

            peace

            Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

            by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:23:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  One Point On Your Analysis. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              wonky

              The DNC type superdelegates were to a large part appointed by Dean. He named 75 superdelagates as DNC chair. Many of these are still uncommitted. I'm comfortable with these superdelegates not roiling the party by going against the grain.

              "There's no housing bubble..." - Fed Chief Ben Bernanke, 10/27/2005

              by chuco35 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:56:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  look at the list of Clinton supers (0+ / 0-)

                she has a high proportion of those supers who are not elected public officials (House, Senate and Govs) who have committed.  That was my point, and it was just a wee bit of snark when she wants to make distinctions between elected delegates and caucus delegates -  it is not central to the points of the diary

                peace

                Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

                by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 12:04:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm just saying... (0+ / 0-)

                  It might be worth looking closer at these 75 Dean appointees. While some have committed to Hillary already, some have gone to Obama as well.

                  Most importantly, I understand from reading somewhere that a significant number of these Dean appointees (something like 42 if I recall correctly), are still undecided.

                  "There's no housing bubble..." - Fed Chief Ben Bernanke, 10/27/2005

                  by chuco35 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:09:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Encouraging! n/t (0+ / 0-)

                "In the field of world policy, I would dedicate this nation to the policy of the good neighbor - " - FDR.

                by wonky on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:16:32 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  One nit to pick...the media coverage is Not free (10+ / 0-)

        It is sucking funds out of both campaigns and us by extension. However, it is worth it, I agree with you on that.

        "If the Goverment is a car setting out to give every one a ride to work, then for 40 years the Republicans have been puncturing the tires, pouring sand in the gas tank, stealing the distributor cap, and, whenever they can get their hands on the wheel, driving it straight into the nearest ditch and then, pointing to the wreckage as the tow truck backs up to it, saying, 'See, this proves that people were meant to walk.'
        And they do this so that they don't have to chip in on gas." - Lance Mannion

        •  first, LostInTexas, that is a (7+ / 0-)

          brilliant sig.

          Regarding teachkerken's proposition, I'd say the extra Obama publicity could be a boon depending on the nature of the content. If it's Obama making his case to the people on a particular policy, or even defending himself against a smear, I think it's about right. The extended primary might serve to his advantage.

          However, if it become three months of counter -Obama clips via video of Wright or transcripts of the Reszko trial or HRC surrogates twisting every relevant relationship Obama has ever had in his life then it could be considerably bad news for Obama and for the Democratic party, in general.

          and, unfortunately, the folks who will determine how Obama gets to 'represent' are media executives who, I suspect, do not have our best progressive interests at heart.

          What I would suggest, given that we are where we are with at least six weeks of air time between here and PA when some resolution may be 'forced' upon the primary participants, is that team Obama start working the hell out of the refs. That is, pushing for positive news cycles and going after the HRC campaign with some news hooks that have a little red meat on them. What about those tax returns? Hsu? Kyle Lieberman vote? Nafta, Cafta votes? etc.

          But in addition, Obama should do what he has been doing brilliantly,  a kind of political judo. When the smear on Jeremy Wright started, Obama didn't punch back (as Hillary would do) with a 'yeah, but look how close she is to some other distasteful character (Penn? Murdoch?)', but used the attack to open a national dialog on race. In other words, turn the obvious negative into a positive by using the news cycle to directly address the underly concern that the smear taps into. With Wright it was racism and Obama said, yeah, it's a problem. And started talking about race as a problem and what needed to be done about it, rather than simply saying, oh, that guy, he's nuts. I completely disagree with him (HRC's tactic)....It's a risky manuever because it depends on the intelligence and good will of the American people. But what else could we expect from a guy who writes a book entitled 'The Audacity of Hope'?

          You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

          by DelicateMonster on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:57:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Rec'd for the terrific (and sadly true) quote! nt (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sap

          "I'm asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washinton...I'm asking you to believe in yours." - Barack Obama

          by Wordie on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:02:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  what got me; (30+ / 0-)

        your point that the visibility of Obama, how he manages his campaign, is demonstrating his ability to be a strong, confident, and effective leader. Clinton has shown through her campaign how she would lead, and many have been turned off by it (me, too, teacherken). His ability to think on his feet and make a positive out of potential negatives by being transparent and agile (Powers, Rezko, Wright) is an asset in a campaign and in a president. (nitpick - it's president; not "commander in chief". That RW term has snuck in as a replacement, and it skews perceptions just like the reprehensible "homeland" jingoism.)
        Well argued, as always.

        Apparently only elections of Republicans have consequences. My bad.

        by kamarvt on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:59:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Because you rock the Casbah (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grrr, empathy, earicicle
        •  Ah...The Clash! (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Puffin

          teacherken's telling us a little Clashing now is maybe not so bad for us after all.

          Rockin' the Casbah, indeed!

          Sweet are the uses of adversity...[Find] tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. -Shakespeare, As You Like It

          by earicicle on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:10:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  it cracks me up (15+ / 0-)

        how often you dismiss your influence here!
        We do not need messiahs and gurus, but boy do we like our intelligent thoughtful writers.
        XXOO

        Be the change you want to see in the world.

        by empathy on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:47:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here here! (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lcrp, empathy

          "Not to forgive imprisons you in the past and locks out all potential for change." -- Robert Lennick

          by WSComn on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:36:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  thanks for kind words, but (5+ / 0-)

          let me offer the following

          1. some of what I consider my most thoughtful diaries have scrolled into oblivion without much traffic, perhaps because other items were of greater interest to those online at the time.  Conversely, I had had some diaries I thought were not as well written that got far more attention than I thought they deserved
          1.  While I try to be thoughtful, at times I do display the less attractive aspects of my personality
          1. some people simply either do not like what I have to see, or may even have a personal antipathy to me.  I cannot control the latter, but I do try to understand the former

          peace.

          Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

          by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:55:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What!!! You're human? You bastard! (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            teacherken, pat bunny, lauramp, goshzilla

            While I try to be thoughtful, at times I do display the less attractive aspects of my personality

             Don't we all.

            some people simply either do not like what I have to see, or may even have a personal antipathy to me.  I cannot control the latter, but I do try to understand the former

            And once again, the wisdom and thoughtfulness.  You can run, but you can't hide.
            Enjoy your day.  I assume you've come home from church so you are off to a good start. Blessed Be.

            Be the change you want to see in the world.

            by empathy on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:03:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  got back from Meeting for Worship at 11:30 (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              empathy

              and have been trying to get completely caught up on this diary, while also making a few remarks on some other threads, and recommending other worthy diaries

              thanks for your kind words

              peace

              Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

              by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:06:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I think. (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lcrp, lauramp, obamamama, Leslie in KY

        Running the primary conclusion is generally good since it enables a maximum number of people to get involved and provides (waht could be) opportunity for candidates to define themselves for the voters.

        But (here's my not so contrarian view) the fact Clinton has squandered the opportuinity and is continuing to escalate the negatib=ve campaigning while supporting the opposition makes me wish party leaders would take her aside and read her the riot act, and if she fails to right herself, then to endorse Obama and finish her off, politically speaking.

        If the primary continues to be mainly negative attacks instead of positive dabate of issues, what useful purpose does it serve?

        When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

        by koNko on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:57:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  KoNko, the only positive I can see (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pat bunny, koNko

          is that it will prepare Obama for the Republican attack machine coming from not only McCain but all the right winger 527s that will air ads this fall.

          Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

          by wishingwell on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:45:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Tipped and Rec'd, More primaries equals more (2+ / 0-)

        Obama organization in those states equals victory in November.

        If man was created with Free Will, why create Religion to take it away? Weise

        by hideinplainsight on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:10:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe the dKos community is ready (6+ / 0-)

        to look at some "cease fire" diaries and look at the possible opportunities (minus the vitriol) that an extended campaign could bring. I know I am.

        I agree with teacherken that Obama was not nearly as fluid and articulate an orator as he was given credit for when he first started. I, too, have witnessed his growth, ease and -- at times -- grace with which he has handled himself. Exposure has been good for Obama.

        I appreciate this diary, teacherken. You make very cogent points. Congratulations for making the rec list!

        "You can count on Americans to do the right thing after they've tried everything else." -- Winston Churchill

        by bleeding heart on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:53:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  oh, he was a fluid orator (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ClaudeB, mama hearts obama

          what he was not was an incisive debater, and in that he has improved greatly.

          Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

          by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:19:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm picky ;>) (0+ / 0-)

            His words were fine. His delivery needed some work, IMHO. I think he's gotten much better lately and so noted recently to mr. bh.

            My recollection is that he had a lot of "ummmm's" and "errrrr's" which he now silences, which makes him much appear smoother. He now uses deliberate pauses at those times. I'm tainted by previous career in broadcasting. Although I was an IT person, I did some voiceovers and PSA filming.

            "You can count on Americans to do the right thing after they've tried everything else." -- Winston Churchill

            by bleeding heart on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:43:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  filled pauses in his speech (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Emalene

              You are referring to what are called "filled pauses" as opposed to "silent pauses" in his speech as he formulates his thoughts.  They can be viewed as somewhat positive, though, in that they show him to be thinking as he speaks, and not just reeling off automatic responses.  I think they make him more human and are part of his authenticity.

              ---written by someone who 30 years ago as a grad assistant had to go through speech samples of teacher education candidates and try to find 10 seconds of continuous completely fluent speech for a faculty research project.  

          •  Yes he has improved greatly (0+ / 0-)

            in debates. He has grown in that area.

            Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

            by wishingwell on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:47:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Your contributions are a real treat (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lcrp

        for many of us.  Thoughtful, principled, and usually enlightening.

        "In the unlikely story that is America, there's never been anything false about hope." Barack Obama for President

        by Chi on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:38:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting points... (5+ / 0-)

        And I actually think this is how Obama sees it.  I am sure his campaign may see it differently, but I bet that Obama and Michelle think that what might be best for the party and the election, at this point, is to let them make every defense possible, every argument, every attempt.

        And while I deplore what seems a waste of money, OTHO, if done well, it gives us a big, big organizing advantage in each and every state.

        So when McCain comes a knockin' in marginal districts in September, he's going to seems like the Johnny come lately, so to speak.

        Interesting.  That's why it made the rec list.

        As usual Teach, I find you POV has an in depth reasoning behind it and work.  I appreciate and respect your efforts, even on those occasions when I may disagree with you.  It's nice to discuss these things in a dinner party atmosphere instead of a barroom brawl.

        Pax

        Saying that Hillary has Executive Branch experience is like saying Yoko Ono was a Beatle.

        by Casey Morris on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:56:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  he has said he expects it to go to June (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Casey Morris

          if not further, and I have not heard him argue that it needs to be cut short, although I have heard rumblings that some of his high-profile advocates have tried to persuade others to try to bring it to a close.

          Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

          by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:04:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  As an assessment (we teachers like that word!) (0+ / 0-)

        this diary is right on, I think.
        The key is Clinton not going down so far in the muck - like calling McCain better suited for Prez - that it kills both of them and Obama continuing to stick with his game plan, while honing the message to expand to more Latinos, lower income folks, and women.

        "In the field of world policy, I would dedicate this nation to the policy of the good neighbor - " - FDR.

        by wonky on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:15:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I largely agree (12+ / 0-)

      Obama's growth as a candidate can be seen even in the last few months, particularly in his skills in debating.  The political infrastructure he's building now will be needed in November.  

      My one concern is that an extended primary gives Clinton more time to find another kitchen sink.  Her stance (or lack thereof) on Ferraro's statements makes me fear more of that.  Granted, Obama isn't expected to win the states where those will have significant play come Nov., but there's probably a few that could be decided by 1 or 2% margins where the racism will make a difference.  

      Ultimately though, I have hope.  Obama's deft defusing of Rezko with the Chicago papers, his transmuting potentially divisive statements from his church into a message of unity ... one thing he's proven, he can sure make lemonade.

      •  My only concern ... (21+ / 0-)

        ... is that the elevated passions and rhetoric will cause too  many disheartened Clinton supporters to stay home in November  after Obama wins the nomination.  I would like to see a serious bridge building effort between the two camps even before the primary concludes.  Some of us in the trenches could make a point to keep the lines of communication open and remind our counterparts that we are all ultimately on the same team come November.  We need to stay clear of the flame wars and personal attacks, even when we feel provoked.  Remember that the person that is pissing you off is someone you will eventually need as an ally.  I think Obama understands that (you can see it in how he runs his campaign).  Some of his more passionate supporters should follow his lead in that regard.

        Treasure each day like it will be your last, but treat the earth like you will live forever. -me

        by protothad on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:08:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  AMEN!!! (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          svotaw1992, CK in NC

          Be the change you want to see in the world.

          by empathy on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:50:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you! (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Chaoslillith, ailanthus, protothad

          Despite all that I read on this blog about how dreadful the Clinton campaign is, from where I sit in a small town in North Carolina the situation appears exactly opposite -- it's Obama supporters who throw around the language about bitches and broomsticks while Clinton supporters just keep patiently trying to argue policy. Obama may not be responsible for the excesses of his supporters, but he's used subtler references of the same ilk himself in debates and speeches ("the claws are out," the rolling of his eyes about Clinton's likability). I have never failed to vote for the Democratic presidential nominee no matter how disappointed I've been with the choices that have been made over the years -- but this year I am not so sure. As a 48-year-old woman, I identify with Clinton when she is tarred as a witch or a bitch. I also feel strongly that she will be a more effective president at getting done the things that I care about, primarily universal health care with mandates and protecting civil liberties (correct me if I am wrong; my understanding is that Obama voted to extend the Patriot Act; that vote alone would be unforgivable). I am pretty mystified at the way all this has played out, as I always seem to be during the Democratic presidential primary season. I can only attribute it to some kind of emotional payoff that people feel when they support Obama.

          •  Clinton will not be able (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            amanuensis, dus7, on the cusp

            to enact the things she says she wants, like health care, because republicans can't stand her.

            Her presidency would be plagued with constant right wing attacks and republican attempts to block all of her legislation.

            Obama doesn't have that problem, which means he's in a better position to get both sides to agree on a solution.

            Clinton promises to "fight" (a word she uses constantly) everyone who doesn't agree with her - which means about half the US.

            Americans are sick of fighting in Washington. Nothing ever gets done.

            •  you say Clinton won't be able (12+ / 0-)

              to enact the things she says she wants, like health care, because republicans can't stand her.

              I would make slightly different argument -  because she is somewhat toxic downballot even though I think she would ultimately beat McCain, she would not improve to working margins in H and S the way Obama has the possibility of doing.  I was making precisely this point last night in a discussion about health care - I was telling the person with whom I was talking that it was irrelevant whether Clinton's healthcare proposal was superior (and I'm not sure it is) because she would not be able to enact it unless there were significantly MORE Democrats in both House and Senate, and I do not see her having positive coattails.

              Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

              by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:51:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Funny, but I seem to remember a lot of complaints (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Owllwoman

              not so very long ago about how badly we were being represented by Democrats in Washington precisely because they failed to fight when that was what we needed them to do. And Republicans seemed to manage to get a lot of their stuff done that way--the war, the tax cuts. What I'm afraid of is that I have no idea what Obama will do or what kind of compromises he might agree to.

              •  I do not believe Obama will compromise his (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                sean oliver, dus7

                principles. He can be tough and strong but remains calm. Hillary  presents herself as tough and talks loudly about it but I believe Obama is just as tough.

                Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

                by wishingwell on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:56:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  The problem with that argument (4+ / 0-)

                is the likelyhood of further D gains in congress this year and a probable Dem in the WH which will make "fighting" less necessary.

                I agree, the Dems in congress are not tough enough right now, but if Obama gets the nomination, he will almost certainly defeat McCain and thus be in a position to do what needs to be done.

                But more importantly...

                But Obama never said he'd "compromise". That is a different concept than "bringing people together".

                Obama's rhetoric cajoles and persuades people to see his side of the solution by evoking larger issues for the common good. He sincerely wants to improve things. Obama's progressive credentials are far stronger than Clinton's, and his ability to solve problems has been demonstrated during his years as an Ill state rep.

                Clinton's rhetoric, on the other hand, automatically causes republicans to oppose her - no matter what. She looks at Washington not as a place to solve problems, but as a place to compete with others for her own personal power. She is an oppurtunistic careerist politician, pure and simple. She adopted this role because she felt that, as a woman during the 70's, she had to be tougher and more aggressive than other male politicians. If women didn't adopt a macho, adversarial tone, they would not be taken seriously.

                What Obama offers is a way for Republicans to agree with (needed and necessary) Dem legislation without having to "agree" with the despised Clintons. The GOP will fight Hillary because of her last name, not because of the content of her legislation.

                This is the key to why Hillary will not make an effective president. Her last name makes her a polarizing force. Her tactics and bellicose rhetoric is a major turn-off for most Americans.

                This also has repercussions downticket (as teacherken said). Those red state folks will not vote for a Clinton, period. This cripples the Democratic party and undoes all the party-building  work Obama's team has done in places like Kansas and Idaho.

                •  I'm interested in his record in Illinois (0+ / 0-)

                  What I understand about it is that he voted "present" more times than he voted for or against anything. This includes bills that he sponsored, which doesn't make sense.

                  I love the way you can get inside the candidates' brains and judge who is sincere and who is interested only in her own personal power.

                  I also love the way this site blows in the wind. We all hated Lieberman a while back. Now we love the guy who called Lieberman his mentor and who campaigned for him in Connecticut last summer.

                  Anyway, if we have further Democratic gains in Congress, that sorta detracts from your argument about being despised by Republicans. Right?

                  •  On 'Present' Votes. (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    sean oliver

                    Present Votes.  From Obama's factcheck site.

                    The Internet is your friend.

                    "It's better to vote for what you want, and not get it, than to vote for what you don't want, and get it." Eugene Debs, 1912.

                    by cybrestrike on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:34:29 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I appreciate the response (0+ / 0-)

                      But I have to say that I didn't find the information there very helpful. It might not be self-serving, but I just can't tell, because really all it says is that if you criticize his present votes, you don't understand the process. And the process is too boring to be explained. Am I missing something?

                      •  CK in NC (4+ / 0-)

                        1. Obama didn't vote present more often than not.  He voted present something like 100 votes out of several thousand (5000?), a small percentage of the time.  Most times this was a protest vote along with a block of  democrats, a procedure that is commonly used in Illinois politics.  Obama's positions are clear with his Illinois record.  Even with the present votes on some abortion votes, he was given a 100% rating on pro-choice, so the Clinton mailers/emails/etc. blasting him as being anti-abortion due to the present votes are very misleading.
                        1.  Lieberman was an assigned mentor when Obama entered the Senate.  Ned Lamont has now endorsed Obama...since he's not holding a grudge why is this an issue for you?
                      •  If democracy is too boring for you (0+ / 0-)

                        then perhaps you should find another more exiting pastime.

            •  I agree, Clinton is far more divisive (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              sean oliver, Involuntary Exile

              and she is a known quantity. Obama has that ability to bring something new to the table and the chance to at least try to bring a fresh approach.

              Hillary's scorched earth, take no prisoners attitude, will not go over well with the rest of the segment of the population that did not support her for President.

              Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

              by wishingwell on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:53:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  very different take than yours (5+ / 0-)

            it's Obama supporters who throw around the language about bitches and broomsticks while Clinton supporters just keep patiently trying to argue policy

            I think both sides have their zealots, and as an O supporter I think 'bitch' & 'witch' talk is way out of bounds.  (In fact, I'd say the "B-word' should be retired from all remarks about women, forever.)

            But I can't see how anyone could look at the Clinton campaign and not take exception to the tactics - subtle insinuations about race, religion (the 'Madrassa' lies & HRC's unwillingness to call Obama a Christian), Obama's competence vs. McCain, and the not-so-subtle procedural maneuvers to change the goalposts (self-serving reversals on MI & FL, dissing of non-Clinton states, new attempts to sue to invalidate Texas caucus voters) and, it seems, on and on and on.

            HRC's trying to win dirty.  She seems willing to damage the Democratic Party and risk the 2008 election in the process.  This isn't hardball, it's scorched earth Defcon 3 stuff.  And it's unconscionable.  She can't seem to accept the possibility (now probability) that she's going to stay in the Senate.  That makes me question her psychological health, as well.  

            I can see that you're not condoning this stuff, but it's happening.

          •  I am a 51 year old woman who is (7+ / 0-)

            not swayed by the emotional content of his speeches. I have been impressed by him overall.
            I have made the choice very carefully and I have separated emotion from reality.

            I think to assume most Obama supporters are just caught up in his rhetoric and that it is an emotional decision is too large of a leap to make.

            Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

            by wishingwell on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:51:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's actually not my assumption (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              wishingwell

              I'm just trying to explain the situation to myself.

              •  I'll explain another over 50 yo woman for you (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Involuntary Exile, Emalene

                I am 53 yo female, kept my name when I married, post grad degree.  I too came to support Obama through reading and careful analysis.  I don't even watch TV, at least not until recently.  I had never heard one of his speeches, not even the Dem. 2004 convention speech, although I had heard of it.  I have always voted somewhat unenthusiastically Democratic.  I did not donate or engage in any political activity.

                This is the first time in my life I have become engaged by a political candidate.  I have read everything I can about him, negative, positive, up, down, and inside-out.  I started out with mildly positive impressions of Clinton.  Sad to say, after her scorched earth tactics of late I don't even know if I would vote at all this fall if she were the nominee.

                The more you read and learn about Obama, the more you see that this is something we have never seen before in American politics.  He has unique talents and gifts and he is reviving the Democratic Party itself in a way that no one else has even approached.  For the first time in my life I am donating, reading political news, reading dailyKos, and helping with the local organizing efforts.  Obama is creating newly engaged voters.  

            •  Fact based reasons to support Obama (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              CK in NC, Involuntary Exile, Emalene

              Same here.  I was initially intrigued but cautious regarding his skill at oratory and the big crowds he could draw.  His message of change and hope was attractive, but a candidate needs a lot more than that before I will jump on the bandwagon.  Fortunately, I spent some time digging through the Senate records of our current front running candidates and found plenty to like about Obama.  He has a solid record of accomplishment on issues that really matter, which is only more impressive consider how short his time as a Senator has been.  Going back farther, his record in the IL state legislator and his time as a civil rights attorney further highlight what he stands for.  The 'empty suit' meme doesn't carry any weight with me.

              If you want to follow the same path as me in learning all the wonkish details of Senator Obama, I recmomend going to votesmart.org.

              Another good place to visit is opensecrets.org to see how the candidates compare regarding campaign contributions.  The difference is substantial, particularly when you examine how much money each candidate has taken from Political Action Committies (i.e. lobbyists).  After examining those numbers, you will have no doubt about which campaign is truly 'people powered'.  :)

              Just to make it easier for the curious, here are links to the financial details for each candidate:

              Barack Obama

              Hillary Clinton

              John McCain

              As an aside, I started doing a lot of this research on behalf of my girlfriend, who remains a McCain fan.  Fortunately, she is open to being swayed by facts, so I think I can demonstrate to her that Obama actually has the better stand on the issues that really matter to her.

              Peace

              Treasure each day like it will be your last, but treat the earth like you will live forever. -me

              by protothad on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 12:46:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Clinton also voted for the Patriot Act (6+ / 0-)

            reauthorization, so I'm really not sure how that makes her a stronger candidate on civil liberties. And it's not a matter of simply saying Obama is somehow soft on civil liberties by voting for the reauthorization. It's a bit of an odd conclusion given his background; he's very pro-civil liberties.

            The process was complicated. The Senate's version was stronger than what the House sent back and what they voted on. Feingold had tried to introduce even stronger amendments (which Obama co-sponsored), but Frist (I think at the time) blocked it. That said, the Reauthorization version of the Patriot Act was better on civil liberties than what we had before -- which is why Obama voted for it.

            From Obama's statements on the floor:

            This compromise does modestly improve the PATRIOT Act by
            strengthening civil liberties protections without sacrificing the tools
            that law enforcement needs to keep us safe. In this compromise:
             We strengthened judicial review of both national security letters, the administrative subpoenas used by the FBI, and Section 215 orders, which can be used to obtain medical, financial and other personal
            records.
             We established hard-time limits on sneak-and-peak searches and limits on roving wiretaps.
             We protected most libraries from being subject to national security letters.
             We preserved an individual's right to seek counsel and hire an attorney without fearing the FBI's wrath.
             And we allowed judicial review of the gag orders that accompany Section 215 searches.
            The compromise is far from perfect. I would have liked to see stronger judicial review of national security letters and shorter time limits on sneak and peak searches, among other things.
            ...
             This is a complex issue. But only by working together and avoiding election-year politicking will we be able to give our government the necessary tools to wage the war on terror without sacrificing the rule of law.
             So, I will be supporting the PATRIOT Act compromise. But I urge my colleagues to continue working on ways to improve the civil liberties
            protections in the PATRIOT Act after it is reauthorized.

            Link to the rollcall.
            Link to the floor speech.

            •  Thanks for this (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              amanuensis, pepper mint

              I like evidence-based decisions. So this is very useful information.

              •  CK-interpreting voting records (3+ / 0-)

                I've done lots of reading and have come to the conclusion that it is very, very risky to draw any conclusions about candidates based on simple voting records.  Without knowing the background research that a legislator went into, what amendments to the bill might have tainted the original purpose, and what the political strategy might be, you know nothing.  Again I will link this article on how Obama approaches voting for you and I think you can see why he is unusual in how he approaches his decisions.

                The Obama I Know

                It's also obvious you have been influenced by spin on things like the "present" votes.  I have learned a great deal about spin by my obsessive study of the msm during this campaign.  I am a much more highly educated voter than I have ever been in my entire life.  Question everything you hear, from both sides.  Unfortunately, it is very time consuming to get this well educated. The empty nest is an advantage to me right now!

          •  Thank you for the thank you (0+ / 0-)

            Maybe this thread can be a beginning to one of those bridges I was talking about.  I'm definitely an enthusiastic Obama supporter, but I can also certainly understand why Clinton has her supporters.  If you compare their Senate histories and the issues they championed before that, their is no doubt either candidate would advance progressive policies far more than McCain ever would.  I hope we can all keep that in perspective when the dust of primary season settles.

            Peace

            Treasure each day like it will be your last, but treat the earth like you will live forever. -me

            by protothad on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 12:06:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Obama v Clinton on healthcare (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Involuntary Exile

            Obama's health-care plan places a premium on cutting costs and making care affordable, without requiring adults to purchase health insurance. (He would require mandatory coverage only for children.) Republican legislators are unlikely to support a mandatory approach, and his plan can be understood, in part, as a recognition of political realities.

            But it is also a reflection of his keen interest in freedom of choice. He seeks universal coverage not through unenforceable mandates but through giving people good options.

            The Obama I Know

            Read this article for more insight on why we think Obama will be more effective than Clinton.

        •  that was discussed no some Sunday shows (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pepper mint

          of how it will be easier to win over Hillary voters to Obama than vice versa. But the toughest group to to win over will be the older women. Many believe Obama can win over the blue collar and lower income voters but older women will be his biggest challenge.

          Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

          by wishingwell on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:49:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting. It seems that's probably true. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            lauramp, Involuntary Exile

            I've been pretty shocked at the sort of vociferous arguments in favor of Clinton based almost solely on gender. I'm 42 and many of the women speaking out for Clinton were heroes of mine growing up. What I learned from them is that a woman has every right to use her own mind and stand her own ground; and that she deserves to be treated equally.

            Some of these folks seem to think Hillary deserves to be treated more than equally -- because she's a woman. It's been really disappointing to me. It undermines the basic premise of gender equality. And then to see a woman like Ferraro come out with bizarre racist comments against Obama is truly bewildering. For a women of her background and experience to appear not to understand the link between oppression of all kinds and sexism in particular is just so -- dumb. I don't understand how these women can be so retro -- as if there haven't been any changes in the actual world or in feminist thinking in the last 20 or 30 years.

            •  I echo those feelings pepper (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              pepper mint

              It has been disappointing to me as well to see Clinton supporters who think Hillary should receive preferential treatment because she is a woman, rather than equal treatment.

              Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

              by wishingwell on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 12:29:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I will be away for a while (6+ / 0-)

      I am about to leaving for Meeting for Worship, and do not expect to be back on line until around 11:30.  Quite clearly this discussion can continue without my immediate presence.

      I will, as per my practice, read all additional comment upon my return, responding where I deem appropriate.

      Peace.   And behave yourself while the teacher is out of the room :-)

      Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

      by teacherken on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:39:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is an excellent diary...