Daily Kos

Racism: A tool that divides us

Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:27:15 PM PDT

Just a personal view of the events of the week. Racism is a charge I am slow and reluctant to level. Often it is a term that is too quickly employed in opposition to a comment, a policy or a person.

However, the race card has been played and this is my perspective (in brief)

Note to Moderators

I think the title is relevant. If anyone feels it profane please feel free to change it. I hope the point is not lost

It is a few years now, that I have lived here in the USA. Much has astonished me, much has delighted me but there is also the side of life and attitudes here that, quite frankly, shock and horrify me.

Foremost among the latter is the casual expression of racism that I frequently encounter. From family, from friends and from TV. Attitudes and expressions that leave me bemused and feeling dirty.

I am not suggesting that the UK specifically, or even that Europe generally is free from racism; it clearly is not. Here though there is an endemic racism expressed both personally and institutionally that is without comparasion on the other side of the pond.

In Oklahoma 25% of black males aged 18 to 24 are in jail, have been or will be. The figure for white males is around 10%, in itself shocking. (figures vary a little)

When will folk start to understand that crime and punishment is not a symptom of being black (or Hispanic). It is a symptom of being poor.

If you are black in the USA the odds are stacked against you from birth. It is likely that your parents are poor. You will go to largely segregated schools because you will go to the school in your neighbourhood, and if you live in a predominantly black area, this will be reflected in your school. Schools in the USA are failing, and schools in poor and black areas are failing most, and failing fastest.

Your chances of receiving more than rudimentary healthcare are low, and college opportunities are vastly more restricted (by dint of schooling and perception) than are those of your white counterparts. Poor whites will get similar opportunities, but without the doors closed to blacks.

Your chance of experiencing prison is very high, on the other hand. Your chance of being a victim of crime is very high, and your chance of being shot is out of all proportion to the actual population numbers.

A small example. Crack cocaine possession and dealing is treated very harshly. Few users and small-time dealers escape jail and the sentences can be lengthy. Powder cocaine is the same class of drug, but is treated very differently to crack. Most users in possession of small amounts will escape jail, and most small dealers will expect fairly short sentences or probation.

Crack is used predominantly by black people and powder cocaine is regarded as white, and middle class. Until this blatant injustice is overturned how can the black community feel any other than anger at the institutional prejudice being demonstrated.

The people I hear making racist remarks are not wealthy people. I don’t actually know many of those. No, they are white, working to middle class, sometimes with college education sometimes not. They are people who don’t have much, and have worked hard for what they have. They are people who sense that this country has problems that make their lives more difficult than it needs to be and have bought into the argument that black people, Hispanics and immigrants, legal or otherwise, are the root of the problem.

These ideas are not fostered or conceived by poor whites, they are rather a tool used by the ruling classes here to divide. The greatest fear of the corporations, and rich old white men is that the poor will call them on it. That one day their will be the realization that the ills they endure are not caused by the black man wasting welfare dollars, and increasing the cost of the drugs they need, but that the cause lies actually with the drug companies and those who allow them to prey on the welfare and health dollars spent here.

If that day ever comes then black, brown, white will not matter. The battle will be between the wealth producers and the wealth consumers. Poor v. Rich, if you prefer. When the day dawns that poor people recognize that they are deliberately kept poor by those who need them to be, and that those very leaders use racism as a tactic to split the poorer, working community, then their might indeed be a revolutionary war here.

Just before I left the UK for the USA I heard a speech by a hitherto little known Senator called Barack Obama. It was the address he gave to the 2004 DNC, and it was a speech that elevated him to the National Consciousness. For my part, it was simply inspirational.

Currently, Barack Obama is the leading Democratic contender in the race for the White House in 2008. I hope he wins.

Over the last week we have been subjected to excerpts from sermons given by the Pastor of the Church Obama attends with his family. Oddly, when Mitt Romney was considered a candidate for the Republican nomination, it was considered inappropriate to even mention his Church (he is Mormon). Now, apparently, because Reverend White made a few inflammatory statements, the chattering classes feel that Obama needs to redeem himself.

Obama didn’t make the statements (which actually were quoted completely out of context in any event) yet he has to answer to them. Mike Huckabee was a Republican candidate until very recently. Huckabee was a Pastor in a Baptist church, and a senior member of that church. Huckabee did not achieve that status without making some very controversial statements on subjects such as Gay marriage, abortion and Right To Life etc. Yet, despite this, we heard not a single word about his sermons. Not once do I recall the candidate being taken to task for anything he said from the pulpit. And he was the candidate, not the candidate’s Pastor.

The double standard is very obvious, and it’s racist. It’s a racist Press and a racist society. It’s another example of how the "uppity nigger" has to be controlled. If they can’t stop his candidacy (and they might yet), they sure as hell can clip his wings.

Today Barack Obama answered the critics. He challenged America to quit the racial squabbling because it was getting in the way of dealing with the problems. The problems are not race, they are poor.

The very people who I hear express racist opinions are the ones suffering just as much as poor black people. They are the white niggers, and if you don’t like hearing that then consider for a moment how much black people like it.

The fear is that the "black niggers" will join the "white niggers".

Today Barack Obama showed them how.

He is the President this country needs. I wonder if we will get him.

Tags: Barack Obama, racism, Jeremiah Wright (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 54 comments

  •  I think the content (9+ / 0-)

    does not need to be described with such a sensational title...many people here today were able to express their feelings without that sort of literary device.

    I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

    by valadon on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:31:21 PM PDT

    •  I agree. You may not understand how terrible that (7+ / 0-)

      title sounds...
      I would suggest you change it.

      •  Please change title. It's unacceptably offensive (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Delilah, begone, norahc, la urracca

        to most of us, and will prevent many from seeing your ideas.

        Sweet are the uses of adversity...[Find] tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. -Shakespeare, As You Like It

        by earicicle on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:35:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree... (4+ / 0-)

        though I do see the point you were trying to make, I actually think that the ugliness of the term serves to distract from it, simply because it provokes such strong feelings and defensiveness.  Just my take on it as someone who grew up in a white lower-middle class household in the Appalachia - so it's not like I don't recognize the subject matter.

        (Sadly, in Kathmandu no longer.)

        by American in Kathmandu on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:37:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I understand the sentiment (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        norahc, geomoo

        The point was answered in the body of the diary.

        If you don't like it then how do you think black people have felt all these years.

        I am reluctant to change it if only because occasionally use of such language is an effective demonstration of a point. Believe me, you have never before heard me use such words, but I didn't play the race card.

        My intro was very specific too. If those on this site who have the power to change it feel I should, then I will

        We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

        by twigg on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:38:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  lol .... someone beat me to it (6+ / 0-)

          And I have no problem with that :)

          We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

          by twigg on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:39:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with you, twigg. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            norahc, Cassandra Waites

            I'm sorry to see the word has become so unacceptable, because it names a hateful attitude and a societal condition more fully than any other way I know.  I think the word should be visceral. I'm not interested in a whitewash.  But I will say, I trust these people--they know what they're talking about, so I think the change was probably for the best.  Please see my comment below.

            The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

            by geomoo on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:48:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Racism: A Tool That Divides is Ugly? No Way. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          norahc

          I assume you changed the title.  Might I inquire of the previous, grievous title?

          •  Used the n word (coded). I hesitate to say more. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Bluesee, norahc

            The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

            by geomoo on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:49:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  email me, and I'll tell ya n/t (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            norahc

            We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

            by twigg on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:58:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No Worries (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              valadon, lauramp, norahc, geomoo

              The text of your article is the proof of your position.

              We could solve this whole race thing.  Perhaps belief is as strong as hope there, but we could "go to the moon" and end poverty and inequality.  What scares the status quo is an economic fear, IMHO, that all boats would sink given inequality (as manifested in economic terms) would end; this is probably true for the extremely rich.  What I think most Americans don't realize is that there is an enormous untapped wealth in the synergies (ok, I'm talking straight out of Dilbert) realized from the coming together of the two Americas, be they rich and poor or black and white.

              They are afraid that the power balance will shift, but I think their fears are unfounded.

              I read today that leadership (it was Dwight Eisenhower, wait... clikclik)

              "The supreme quality for leadership is unquestionably integrity. Without it, no real success is possible, no matter whether it is on a section gang, a football field, in an army, or in an office."

              I like that quote, very gritty, and uniquely American, without being the cock-o-the-walk we got now!  Even if he was a Republican, his quote stands.

              •  Time was when being Republican (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Bluesee, lauramp, norahc

                simply stood for a different approach to a more properous America for all.

                I wonder what Abraham Lincoln would think of the current representatives of his Party ... or would he even recognise it?

                We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

                by twigg on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:25:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Nice quote and optimistic comment (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Bluesee, lauramp, twigg, norahc

                The quote puts me in mind of the study correlating relative poverty with relative integrity in government.  (Sorry, no magic clikclik from me.)  It wasn't resources, history, type of government, hemisphere, or race.  It was institutions with integrity.

                I think the powers that be are terrified of just what you name, possibility of losing what feels like control to an unpredictable democratic wave.  As to solving this race thing, reaction to the speech today reminded me that most Americans are not blind bigots.  They would love the proper leadership to show them the way to harmonious living.  I firmly believe that.

                The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

                by geomoo on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:25:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Best Hope (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  lauramp, norahc, geomoo

                  Here's a clikclik, I think it's saying that sunshine (a higher level of international integration) leads to lower levels of governmental corruption.  Other studies seemed less conclusive, of course, you never know who paid for these studies (a canard invented, it seems, to address GOP concerns about Global Warming).

                  I credit Obama with integrity, I fear that he is messianic (with the negative overtones, I'm thinking of the song "He is Dangerous", from Jesus Christ Superstar, in that there are those plotting against him because he is so independent he can write his own speeches), but he is the best hope we in America have today.

                  Godspeed to him, and woe to the unscrupulous and corrupt.  It's a long time coming.

                  •  I fear for his safety, (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Bluesee, lauramp

                    but I try not to indulge these thoughts.  He is our man.  That photo of Michelle crying with others as they watched Obama--that was a balm for my soul.  We are hungry to have reflected back to us people like us--people who care, people with compassion, people who think.  We are moved to tears by the promise of integrity, which is to say oneness, which is to say honest humanity.

                    I wonder if that study excludes examples of the World Bank or US corporations training their 3rd world lackeys in the more sophisticated ways of corruption.  Other than that, it does make sense.

                    The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

                    by geomoo on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:53:42 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the change. It will now be much (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        begone, norahc

        easier to appreciate....

        •  Converted from manifesto to term paper (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          norahc, la urracca

          I hate to argue, because I trust you're wisdom, but I do want to register that I think the title change is much for the worse.  It sounds like a seminar.  I think the visceral agitation and rage evoked by the original title is quite appropriate to the subject matter.  In fact, I contend that the subject cannot be adequately hashed out without evoking strong, indeed frightening, emotion.  I think we need to be more honest with ourselves, and I don't mean intellectual honesty.

          The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

          by geomoo on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:54:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There is a point I considered (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            norahc, la urracca

            Obama, in his speech today suggested that inflammatory speech was getting in the way of finding solutions.

            I kinda see it both ways :)

            We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

            by twigg on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:00:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Shh! The children may be listening. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              norahc, la urracca

              That's what it feels like to me.  And probably it's mature to consider that hateful liars like Brillo may twist the meaning of your words.  And we have to be careful that Obama doesn't scream the way Dean did, because that will be twisted out of context too.  But I do think that defensive attitude suppresses honest discourse.

              Some people use inflammatory speech to stir up unthinking emotion in order to bypass people's brains.  I assume that's what Obama was talking about.  Others reference inflammatory speech in order to name it precisely for what it is.  And it is important for us to bring the strong emotions surrounding racism up to consciousness so we can get a grip on them.  Using emotional words is one important way to facilitate that.  Finally, I believe many of us want to be good, and are therefore afraid of unconscious racism which may erupt if we open the door an inch.  I truly think that is one our unconscious motivations in insisting that the discussion remain "civil."

              I am content to register these opinions without pushing the point.  The other commenters are more experienced than I, and they are usually right.  I guess I'm able to accept this by saying that this is too public a forum, and one too subject to willful mischaracterization, to make it an appropriate venue for the kind of exploration I am calling for.  If we are to use the words of hate and enslavement, we are obligated to ensure they are used in a completely safe environment.

              And yet, given how many places currently block this site, including today's news of the UK Defense Dept, I'm not sure what reputation we're trying to protect.  So I guess I'm still bristling a bit.

              The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

              by geomoo on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:18:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I feel your pain (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                valadon, lauramp, la urracca, geomoo

                Most people on this site are actually "on my side" with the actual diary - if ya know what I mean.

                I realised quickly that the title was actually alienating people who agreed.

                I find it helpful to remind myself that politics is the art of the possible, and we all have to compromise, often in areas that feel personally uncomfortable.

                I'm getting there .... slowly, and with guidance :)

                We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

                by twigg on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:30:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, These people are politically wise. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  la urracca

                  And that definition has guided me to many a clear thought.

                  Look how much terrific discussion you kicked off.  Your diary is a great success.  Congrats.

                  The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

                  by geomoo on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:56:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Oh indeed (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      norahc, Cassandra Waites

      MUST we travel the road of hyperbole and sensationalism?  Have we not learned in the last few days the destructive nature of this type of vitriolic language?

      PLEASE change the title before Bill O'Reilly decides to do a story on it for tomorrow's show.

      Finally -- it is 2008. The national nightmare is almost over.

      by Delilah on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:38:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  BillO will have a field day w/ your title. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    norahc, Cassandra Waites, earicicle

    change it, please.

    Won't vote for the Dem? I guess your kids will thank you for the far-right Supreme Court.

    by td on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:34:54 PM PDT

  •  Great Ideas (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BlackGriffen, geomoo

    But there are layers of nuance attached to usage history of the title that are not at all appropiate. I think your points are valid - the title gets in the way

    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt

    by norahc on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:37:37 PM PDT

    •  Sweet (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BlackGriffen, geomoo

      the third line from the bottom also please?

      The incarceration rate you mentioned is one that has many unrecognised social costs.  Most states do not have laws preventing discrimination in employment against people with a criminal record. This makes the poverty permanent as even when out of incarceration the wages that can be found are much below average for the general population.  

      Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt

      by norahc on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:44:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good on you for inserting askerisks (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Mother Mags, norahc, la urracca, geomoo

    I bet you could have a creative title that didn't involve
    asterisks...but good on you.

    It is never too late to be what you might have been [especially now] George Eliot

    by begone on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:38:32 PM PDT

  •  what about for asians? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    norahc

    got the stats for them?

    "There is nothing wrong with America can't be cured by what is right with America" -Bill Clinton

    by SensibleDemocrat on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:39:51 PM PDT

  •  I changed the title. Although some people ... (12+ / 0-)

    ...think "nigger" should never be used under any circumstances, sometimes it's essential (or, at least, helpful) to the discussion. But used rhetorically, or, of course, as an epithet, or in a headline, it's  inappropriate. Not only does it give offense, but it draws right-wing flies.

    Moreover, if I were writing you piece, I'd always put expressions like "uppity nigger" in quotation marks so that people are absolutely certain of your meaning.

    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

    by Meteor Blades on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:40:14 PM PDT

  •  Gotcha (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tmo, valadon, begone, norahc

    I struggled with it. I struggled to the point of really not minding the edit.

    In the end it's a judgement call, and I totally respect yours

    We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

    by twigg on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:43:22 PM PDT

  •  Perhaps you're all right about the title, but (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    twigg, norahc

    it's a damn shame if you are, because in some ways it's the only way to express the visceral nature of an idea.  I have been wanting, but refraining from, using that word to describe how all of us in the progressive community have been treated these last years.  The photo of Michelle Obama in tears, sitting next to Obama's friend in tears, with that beautiful white woman gazing lovingly at Michelle--that photo put me in mind that all of us sensitive people who have been so abused for so may years have our hearts overflowing today simply from hearing a man speak truth to the hateful manipulators of power.  It wasn't named specifically, but a lot of pain underlay that speech--the pain that we all compassionate people suffer in abusive societies.  I don't know of a single word that comes close to expressing the idea that we have all become N**'s to the fascists.

    Still I bow to the wisdom of this group.  I appreciate the diary.

    One caveat--there is racism and there is racism.  I thought I had left racism behind when I moved from Georgia to Connecticut.  It was long time before I realized that the more sophisticated veneer just made it harder to spot.  I would be surprised if the racism in the UK is not more carefully concealed, but there nonetheless.  Still, if it's less institutionalized, that's a quite significant difference.

    The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

    by geomoo on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:45:39 PM PDT

    •  Well there was a time when that word (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      geomoo

      did not have such a derogatory intent...in fact you'll find it used in much of early great literature. What happened in between that time and now was the malevolent intent or use of it. I think Meteor Blades is correct in distinguishing the use of it in a title which may have shock value for its own sake, and the use of it in context to a descriptive body of text on the subject of race.

      I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

      by valadon on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:44:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ok, I made a few edits (5+ / 0-)

    Meteor Blades changed the title, and I followed one of his suggestions.

    I want to communicate, and I want it to be the valid points that are recognised. If I make a mistage with language, partlt it might be a cultural difference (I'm not American) and I am willing to learn from my mistakes

    We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

    by twigg on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:48:49 PM PDT

  •  I've been pleased, generally (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    norahc

    that the few diaries I have written have been well received.

    I get some criticism and I welcome it. Most folk are positive, as were you ... ty

    We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

    by twigg on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:55:35 PM PDT

  •  Racism (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lauramp, slynch, geomoo

    When will folk start to understand that crime and punishment is not a symptom of being black (or Hispanic). It is a symptom of being poor.

    When I raise the issue of the difference in incarceration rates (about 10x more likely per capita for a black to be in prision than a white), it amazes me how many people think this is because of different crime rates.  Some of the differences are due to poverty but much is simply racism, both institutional and personal.

    Institutional racism includes the sentencing disparity for crack and powder cocaine you mentioned, three strikes laws, how police services are allocated, what laws are enforced and where, and removal of voting rights in many states for felons.  These are problems that can be solved with legislation if popular support can be found.

    The personal racism can be tougher to identify, and not an issue that can be simply solved with legislation. Obama did the nation a service today, by making sure that racism is acknowledged in America, the first step to working toward a solution.

    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt

    by norahc on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09:37 AM PDT

    •  well, part of it is due to differences (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      norahc, geomoo

      in crime rates.  Blacks commit more offenses proportionally than other races, they are more likely to be arrested when they do, they are more likely to be charged when arrested, they are more likely to be tried (rather than plead), more likely to be convicted, more likely to receive jail time, etc.  At every step in the system they face a disadvantage.  BUT, people don't see that.  What they see is the higher black crime rate.  Which, itself, is a product of economic inequality.

      anyone but a Republican (-8.00/-7.23)

      by slynch on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:15:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is there any good data out there (0+ / 0-)

        on the crime rates by type and race and background (monetary, location, family stability ect)?  I would like to see how my perceptions match reality - the validity of the data as to original crime rate is lacking though for all of the reasons you and I mentioned.

        Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt

        by norahc on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:25:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  are you looking for actual data (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          norahc, geomoo

          or reports based on data?

          It's been a long time since I was up to date on crime stuff.  All my undergraduate work was in criminology, but all my graduate work (and current) is on health and mortality (by race and class).  Let's see.  The Bureau of Justice Statistics puts out numerous reports.  They also put out the UCR (Uniform Crime Report) data, as well as other data.  You might check their website (don't know it off the top of my head).

          You could also look at some of my colleagues' work--Devah Pager (Princeton) and Bruce Western (Harvard).  Bruce especially has spent a fair amount of time over the last decade looking at black and white crime rates and experiences within the justice system.  Much of Devah's work to date focuses on hiring of blacks vs. whites with criminal records.  If you look through some of their work, there are certain to be references for what you're interested in.

          anyone but a Republican (-8.00/-7.23)

          by slynch on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:59:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Dude (0+ / 0-)

    1st of all I grew up amongst some of the "rich white people" that run this country, and let me assure you, they are just as racist as these "white niggers" you talk about.

    Secondly, you cite some drug incarceration statistics from Oklahoma.  First of all, I think they contradict the point you were trying to make here, that the system is rigged against poor people in general.  The numbers you cite clearly show how the justice system goes after blacks at a much higher rate.  But Obama has surrendered this point, he does not give a fuck about the government's war on black people.  Indeed, he wants to continue prosecuting it.

    The way the political system works, if Barack Obama were indeed considered some kind of "uppity nigger" by the "racist press", HE WOULDN'T BE IN THE LEAD FOR THE NOMINATION SILLY.

    •  I am sure you are right (0+ / 0-)

      Rich white people are just as entitled to be personally racist as anyone else. It's not their personal views that matter here though, it's the corporate and institutional view, which is a little different.

      The fact that OK incarcerates more blacks than whites doesn't really detract from my argument. I was arguing that these figures, and others, are used by the establishment to foster the view (in the eyes of poor and middle class whites) that black people are to blame for the problems in society .... It's a divide and rule issue. My contention being that poor is the problem.

      I disagree about Obama, but time will tell. So far nothing he has said suggests he has abandoned ANY people.

      The Press have a nasty habit of reflecting the views of their proprietors. Obama is in the lead despite the obvious affection in DC for Hillary.

      We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

      by twigg on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:39:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Care to expand? (0+ / 0-)

      But Obama has surrendered this point, he does not give a fuck about the government's war on black people.  Indeed, he wants to continue prosecuting it.

      because I cannot honestly understand how you came to this conclusion.

      The way the political system works, if Barack Obama were indeed considered some kind of "uppity nigger" by the "racist press", HE WOULDN'T BE IN THE LEAD FOR THE NOMINATION SILLY

      I think you overestimate the media's ability to deal with a genuine phenomenon--They are more used to inauthentic, unscrupulous, or ambitious politicians. He's leading because he's touched a universal chord within people, even people who would seem most unlikely to appreciate it.

      I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

      by valadon on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:46:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He said the Reverend's statements were wrong (0+ / 0-)

        Didn't he?

        •  I think the difference is in approach (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          twigg

          szilard, He felt the Reverend's statements were not helpful in mending the racial divide, not that there was no underlying truth.

          Just so you know, there were a few things that I did agree with as far as Wright is concerned. Our Foreign policy, our treatment of blacks in this country etc..it's not these ideas that Barack disagreed with because he spoke to this anger especially with respect to racial discrimination.

          He differs on how we should try to find solutions to these problems. I don't see that as surrendering the point, but elevating or transcending it.

          I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

          by valadon on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 05:26:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  America's birth defect (0+ / 0-)

    I've long believed that America was a nation born with a birth defect:  human slavery. America could never have come into being and sustained itself without the structure of human slavery to grow its enormous agricultural engine. And, like many large, visible birth defects, this national birth defect has twisted the national psychology and warped every aspect of discourse in the public square. America was born with the moral defect of human slavery, and no imaginable surgery can cure it now. This birth defect may never actually kill America, but it will forever poison and limit the fullness of its national life.

    •  On the other hand (0+ / 0-)

      if enough people say yes we can ...

      I always feel, when I read something like your obviously heartfelt comment, that the alternative to fighting prejudice, is not to fight prejudice.

      Can't bring myself to do it, so I carry on not hoping to be the solution, but to be part of it.

      We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

      by twigg on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:50:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nor without the decimation of a number (0+ / 0-)

      of Native American tribes. But I disagree that this defect is debilitating to the point that we can not realize a fullness of national life. There is probably not one country in this world that does not suffer some lameness. And yet we all strive against ignorance, and we hope to overcome adversity. That is a human condition and not isolated to any one group of peoples.

      I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

      by valadon on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:52:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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