Daily Kos

How Not to Unify the Party

Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:22:42 PM PDT

If a nominee emerges on Wednesday morning, he or she will have the daunting task of unifying the Democratic after a long, expensive primary battle.  Although the conventional wisdom is that Democrats will quickly rally around whoever wins the nomination, there is the potential for the supporters of the losing candidate to be so deeply offended by the actions of the winner (or his or her supporters) that they stay home in November.

And if that happens, we all lose.

Sens. Dick Durbin and John Kerry appear to counting their chickens before they hatch, urging Hillary Clinton to withdraw from the race if she does not have clear victories on Sunday.

Senator Kerry of Massachusetts, the unsuccessful Democratic presidential candidate in 2004, said Mrs. Clinton would need more than narrow victories to remain a viable candidate.

"Hillary Clinton has to win a big victory in both Ohio and Texas," he said on the CNN program "Late Edition."

"It’s not just winning a little bit," he said. "In order to close the gap on pledged delegates, she’s got to win a very significant victory."

And Mr. Durbin, Mr. Obama’s fellow Democratic senator from Illinois, said the mathematics of the electoral calendar would make it very difficult for Mrs. Clinton to win the nomination even if she broke even with Mr. Obama in the delegates allotted Tuesday.

"If, in fact, there is no measurable change on Tuesday," he said on Fox, Mrs. Clinton would need "extraordinary percentages" in the remaining contests — averaging 62 percent of the delegates yet to be decided, by his calculation, to go on to victory.

"I hope ultimately she makes an honest appraisal of her chances," Mr. Durbin said. "I hope after Tuesday her decision is made on the basis of the unity of the party."

When Hillary Clinton wakes up on Wednesday morning, she will look at the results and make an honest appraisal of her chances at victory.  She is not going to be Mike Huckabee, running a campaign that appeals to only one faction of the base with no money and no victories, nor will she be Ted Kennedy, whose insurgent primary campaign in 1980 divided the party and handed the White House to Ronald Reagan.

Hillary Clinton is a dedicated, loyal Democrat whose goal is to see a Democrat elected to the White House in the fall.  She has worked very hard for Democrats her entire adult life, from the failed McGovern campaign in 1972 to raising funds for Democratic candidates such as then-State Senator Barack Obama in 2004.  She is not going to pull the temple down on our heads.

Why is this so important?  She has a very loyal base of supporters.  We are just as passionate and just as committed to Hillary as Obama supporters are to him.  We have also turned out in record numbers and helped to shatter fundraising numbers.  We also get angry when our candidate is treated with disrespect, and premature calls by Sens. Durbin and Kerry to withdraw before the votes have been cast, are disrespectful.

Last month, Senator Obama indicated that her supporters would flock to his campaign, but that his supporters would not.

"I am confident I will get her votes if I'm the nominee," Obama stressed. "It's not clear she would get the votes I got if she were the nominee."

To a point, Barack Obama is correct.  Among registered Democrats, Hillary has won the most votes so far, and the overwhelming majority of these voters are certain to vote for the Democratic nominee.  That said, her voters are not sheep.  We won’t blindly flock to Obama.  Many of us will be bitterly disappointed if Hillary is defeated and treating her with disrespect will give some an excuse for some of us to stay on home in November.  And calls from these two senators to withdraw before the votes have even been cast is an enormous slap in the face.  

She is not going to run a hopeless campaign like Mike Huckabee and she is not going destroy the Democratic party like Ted Kennedy did in 1980.  But if she scores even narrow victories on Tuesday, the voters will have sent a message.  That message is that this is an election, and the coronation of Barack Obama by Ted Kennedy needs to be delayed.  That message is that voters have serious concerns about Barack Obama and that those concerns need to be addressed before he becomes the nominee.

If Barack Obama is the nominee, I pledge to vote for him and do everything I can to rally my fellow Clintonistas behind him.  But premature calls for her withdrawal are insulting to Senator Clinton and her supporters.  These discussions need to remain private, preserving the dignity of Senator Clinton and the enthusiasm of her supporters.  Even if you care little for the former, the latter is crucial to a Democratic victory in November.

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Dick Durbin, John Kerry, Barack Obama (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 100 comments

  •  We need a unified Democratic party in November! (8+ / 0-)

    Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

    by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:22:55 PM PDT

    •  We need a unified party in November and (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      catfish, psychodrew

      we need to reach out to whomever loses this thing and thank that person and their people for their very hard work.  You don't run for president if you don't really want the job.  Personal ambition is always going to be part and parcel of the process. But we need to remember that both of these candidates have been very loyal Democrats for a lot of years. Whoever loses warrants the respect due someone who has been there for us.

      We need their help in the fall.  In each camp, the goals will be to defeat Sen McCain in the fall. We need to remember that.

      When we become disenchanted with the purity of Sen. Obama, let's think of John Roberts and Sam Alito when we think of the alternative.

      by Dave from Oregon on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:41:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes we do, and I hope we have Democrats unified (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      psychodrew

      But much depends on the conduct of the Nominee. Look at this poll that I tacked on to an unrelated diary this morning:

      Would you vote for Hillary if she changes the rules to win the nomination?

             Yes                   No                Not Sure  

      78% 209 votes    8% 22 votes    13% 36 votes

      26 total votes
       
      Obama outspends Clinton in Texas and Ohio

      McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.

      by Lefty Coaster on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:45:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't mean to be prick (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Wary, Drowning Wave, pvlb

    but if Obama goes from having double-digit deficits in OH and TX two weeks ago to just barely losing, do you honestly believe it will mean that "voters have serious concerns about Barack Obama and that those concerns need to be addressed before he becomes the nominee?"  

    That just seems like unjustifiable spin to me.

    No day but today--Obama '08

    by someotherguy86 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:25:27 PM PDT

    •  A win is win (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      catfish

      And a loss is a loss.

      Isn't Mark Penn ridiculed quite a bit for his spin on Hillary's losses?

      Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

      by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:26:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A win is a win only in a winner (0+ / 0-)

        take all system, in a proportional system like ours, and other democratic systems, candidates are awarded in this case delegates based upon how they performed within the vote of the people. And that is how our system works, no matter what others may want, that's it.

        The article made that plainly clear, also Senator Clinton is well aware of the system and the rules, they've been in place now for about twenty years, so now her argument will be that, 'a win is a win' and i will go on from here, even if I can't make it up--after all Obama can't ever reach the goal either--so I'll just stay in. That in no way is a 'unification" position--

        that's denial of the reality that she can't win by the rules she's agreed to accept and so she's hoping that by staying in long enough she can make some other argument based upon, well, I am doing better, I do have some momnetum going, so just maybe, even if I don't have the 'most' required delegates, I still have momentum, that should count for something and give me the win.

        That's not 'unifying' the party at all.

        Here;s what being stated:

        "If, in fact, there is no measurable change on Tuesday," he said on Fox, Mrs. Clinton would need "extraordinary percentages" in the remaining contests — averaging 62 percent of the delegates yet to be decided, by his calculation, to go on to victory.

        "I hope ultimately she makes an honest appraisal of her chances," Mr. Durbin said. "I hope after Tuesday her decision is made on the basis of the unity of the party."

        ********************8

        you see, a 'win isn't a win" in the respect that she can ever reach  what Obama has--she must have an extraordinary win to even make a small difference.

        Also I'd like to point out that all along she has ridiculed voters in 'red states' as we don't matter, we are in those states we never win anyway--that's her strategy, that was her decision to do it that way, Senator Obama took the 50 state strategy seriously and he reached out to Democrats in states that didn't matter to Senator Clinton--that was not only a big loss for her in delegates, it was not a 'unifying the party' strategy at all.

        AND it sure has pissed a lot of us Red State Democrats off at how LITTLE she thinks of us because we live in states, that 'don't matter' to her.

        So, since some of those remaining states are red states, mine included, she won't win here either because 'we don't matter' unless she NEEDS us as being one of those late states. But in no way, no how can she ever 'win' 67% percent which is what she would need to catch up or slightly pull ahead, ain't gonna happen.

        Obama's already interested in my state.

        "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

        by Wary on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 05:39:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      macmcd, psychodrew

      because despite winnin 11 in the row, he still couldn't get the majority of the vote in these two states.

      I had conversation with older Democrats in my family today...believe me, he has to do some convincing with the older folk.

      •  I'm an older folk (0+ / 0-)

        And I understand exactly what is going on, she needs more than mere votes, she needs to win delegates based upon the percentage of the votes she gets in the polls or cacuses--she doesn't 'win' with a mere 51%--also she knows that, it's been this way for about twenty years now I know.

        "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

        by Wary on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 05:42:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If I am not mistaken, Obama got fewer votes (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      psychodrew, vls3936, JoanH

      from registered Democrats in his last eleven state wins than Hillary got in Florida alone which he doesn't even want to have counted.  The more of him I see the more he reminds me of George W. Bush and the more his supporters remind me of the evangelical fundamentalists who continue to support Bush.

      The soul is not the ego in drag. Ken Wilber

      by macmcd on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 05:54:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I feel exactly as you do, with the addition that (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        macmcd, psychodrew, vls3936

        I will NOT vote for him unless he apologizes on monday for injecting race and gender both in to this primary and causing more divisiveness among democrats than I have ever seen in 30 years of voting.
        He's got the independent vote, but he doesn't have the democratic vote and that matters to me.

        •  I still think it's too early (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          macmcd, vls3936

          to declare him the winner.  I really do.  If Hillary pulls out victories in Texas, Ohio, and Rhode Island on Tuesday, all of these people calling for her withdrawal are going to have to take a step back.

          Hillary has been fighting for the issues I care about for 35 years.  I am going to stand with her all the way to the White House.  If that's not what happens, I'll stand with her as long as she keeps standing for me and the issues I care about.

          I really don't think this is over, Joan.  Stay positive.  This was never going to be an easy fight!

          Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

          by psychodrew on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 02:18:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  LOL. My personal opinion is that (0+ / 0-)

            for the good of the country, she should not pull out before Obama has 2025 delegates!  He is such a flake that anything can happen to him.  I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up being much deeper in the Rezko thing than we even can guess.  Nobody buys a house jointly with the wife of an accused influence peddler accidentally!

            The soul is not the ego in drag. Ken Wilber

            by macmcd on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:27:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If she loses tomorrow (0+ / 0-)

              and drops how, she can hold on to her delegates.  Unless she release them, the pledged delegates have to vote for her.  If this Rezko stuff blows up--and I really don't think that will happen--and the voters get a giant case of buyer's remorse, the superdelegates can swing back to her.

              This isn't over yet.  Stay positive.  Keep fighting.

              Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

              by psychodrew on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 04:37:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I don't even really think he has (0+ / 0-)

          the independent vote.  I think he has cross-over Republicans-for-a-day and young people who have a crush on him.  I think the old farts who are supporting him believe he will give them some power in an Obama administration that they will not get from Hillary because she is not willing to sell out to them.  I have become very cynical about Obama supporters...all of them!

          The soul is not the ego in drag. Ken Wilber

          by macmcd on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:24:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  It's not just Obama-but the supporters (0+ / 0-)

      of Obama that have made this a hard and nasty fight. I have tried several times on this site and others to engage people about both sets of views when something happens in the debates or the news. I promise you folks-DON'T go there on this site!! People won't even read the post, but just start slamming the shit out of you for having any other opinion than "Obama is Great and Hillary Sucks". That is what I (and I hear others) are having difficulty with right now. There is just no discourse that allows for a sharing of any ideas and that is just sad. This party divided means a Republican win again. I am not convinced that either Hillary or Obama are the better candidate and I have been trying to discuss this with you, however, pulling this party together after tomorrow-good luck!

  •  Remember everyone call Hillary at 3am (0+ / 1-)

    Hidden by:
    macmcd

    To tell her to drop out NOW!

    Poll worked 7am to 5pm! Ran caucus till 10:30pm! Proud Texas dem!

    by AHiddenSaint on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:27:04 PM PDT

  •  Did you see Hillary on 60 Minutes? (7+ / 0-)

    She said she takes Barack "at his word" that he's not a muslim?  She has no reason to believe otherwise.  

    How nice...

    There will be no unifying ticket.  I know that much after tonight.

    John McCain votes against Children's Healthcare

    by Hope08 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:27:46 PM PDT

    •  I missed it. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      catfish

      I live in China and have to rely on the internet and podcasts.  I'll see if I can download it somewhere.  Is there a youtube clip?  Did she say that in response to a question or did she just offer it?

      Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

      by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:28:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I saw it (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Grannus, Hope08

      and she was asked if she loses will she drop out, she sat there, said she will win, and reminded the interviewer that her husband didn't win until June.

      Oh, no, she will not drop out, if she loses, or has a smidgeon of a higher vote. It's all just going to be another spin, I'm sorry to say, I've been reading and watching all these reports about her campain this weekend,  all the spin and moving those goal posts memos from her campaign, no she will not drop out no matter what, I'm convinced of that because of what her campaign is saying and doing.

      No, she will NOT work to 'unify the party" quite honestly she'll do the exact opposite, no matter what happens Mar. 4th, if she wins or loses, she will find another way, another strategy, to keep on going and the party unification doesn't matter to her one bit--

      it's HER campaign that is most important to her and the 'party' is just getting in her way because they have these rules she can't meet, and by gosh this is her campaign and she will do anything, demand anything to get what she wants--that I'm convinced of by what I've read from her campaign and watching her surrogates and watching and listening to her.

      I'm sorry but I cannot work for her not even sure I could vote for her. That's under consideration right now, I'll vote for the rest of the democrats who are concerned and dedicated to the party.

      Just so you know, I'm a sixty year  old white woman, been a lifetime feminist and I should be in her 'base' but  I am agahst at her campaign!

      I began having serious doubts when her campaign and husband began  the race baiting back in Dec. and before that I was undecided but along with being a feminist I was also a civil rights person, grew up in a segregated city so I'm extremely conscious of what her campaign was doing.

      It was that which began my separation away from admiring her to looking at her really hard and examining her campaign, and right now she's getting worse and worse, not about the race thing, but just everything else.

      That  point at the debate about her, poor baby, getting those first questions, and wanting to know if they wanted to 'fluff' Barack's pillows--I mean  that was not Presidentail at all! As a feminst that was an extremely WEAK moment and there's been so many more. She's not fit to lead a country of that I am more than convinced seeing all the whining she's been doing.

      I'll end there, sorry I went on, but I am so outraged right now at her  campaign.

      "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

      by Wary on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 05:00:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You claim.... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Philoguy

    That Kerry and Durbin called for her to withdraw and I don't see that in their statements at all. They both said that in their opinions she needs to have clear victories with respectable margins.

    They were not counting chickens before they hatched. What they did say was IF chickens are hatched, then she isn't viable. The math speaks for itself.

    •  I would agree to a point. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      catfish

      What I am saying is that these discussions need to happen behind closed doors.  It's disrespectful and makes my job of rallying Clinton supporters behind Obama (if he's the nominee) that much harder.

      Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

      by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:32:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  wrong - it is all about expectations (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Philoguy, Wary

        after all, the people like Penn and Wolfson are trying to raise the bar for Obama by claiming that if he doesn't win all four races it will show that people have started to have doubts about him.

        Live by the expectations game, die by it.

        And since her husband said that she needed to win both, any loss in either TX or OH should by itself be considered disqualifying

        and since back after Iowa Mark Penn tried to make the argument that it was all about delegates, the lay of the land after Tuesday will mean that if she has not significantly closed the margin in elected delegates, it will be impossible for her to do so, and remember, coming up soon are WY and MS and she is going to lose both of them . . . and then have 6 weeks until Penna. . .  

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:41:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What happens if she wins both. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          catfish

          Even if they are narrow wins, they are victories.  How can you ask her to drop out of she wins the most votes in both of these states?

          Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

          by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:45:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I thought elections trump polls.... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            psychodrew

            I am with you on this one. We have elections to determine winners and losers. We have polls to make guesses.

            When we become disenchanted with the purity of Sen. Obama, let's think of John Roberts and Sam Alito when we think of the alternative.

            by Dave from Oregon on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:48:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  because the results of narrow wins in both (0+ / 0-)

            will be that she comes out of TX with fewer delegates than he does, and possibly out of OH with no more.  In other words, he will do as he has done on every day so far this cycle - he will win more or as many delegates as she does.   And if he wins more, then she falls further behind, with the next two events - WY and MS - places she will lose, and she knows it.  

            And to try to hang on in Penna when she was unable to file a complete slate of delegates there might be a big mistake - remember the more that people see and hear Obama the better he does.

            Besides, if she does not win more delegates, she will have her hand forced by superdelegates.  Look at the owrds by Richardson this morning, which are a clear indication that he is prepared to endorse Obama after Tuesday.

            If she wants to preserve dignity, she would be advised to accept the reality and withdraw before she is forced out.

            She needs to win Ohio by at least 7 points - winning by 2-3 will not cut it in a state she led by 20 points less than a month ago.

            do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

            by teacherken on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:49:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If she wins, (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              catfish, nrafter530, vls3936

              what happens to Obama's momentum?

              I'm tired of this campaign and want it to be over.  But if she wins both states on Tuesday, she has a mandate to continue fight and I hope that she does.

              Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

              by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:51:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  nothing happens to his momentum - (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Philoguy, Wary

                she was supposed to win.  And two weeks ago she was expected to win both comfortably.  Winning narrowly slows but does not stop his momentum.  And that is what many politicians, including those supporting her, are pointing out.

                Be stubborn if you want - the only reason she can justify going on is if she thinks the sky is going to open and suddenly a blaze of light is going to reveal Obama as the devil incarnate. And yes, I am making fun of her making fun

                do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

                by teacherken on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:54:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  You're right Ken... (0+ / 0-)

              But, she does have a right to continue. 4 days later we have Wyoming and 3 days after that Mississippi, and Obama will net another 25 delegates or so. In the meantime, superdelegates, following your logic will continue to bleed over to Barack on a daily basis as they have been since Super Tuesday.

          •  If she wins both... (0+ / 0-)

            I personally wouldn't have a problem with her continuing even though the pledged delegate math makes it a zero game for her. But, she does have the right. She will have to weigh her personal desire to continue against the greater good.

          •  Simple, she doesn't 'win' it all, this is (0+ / 0-)

            a different system not a 'winner take all' system, this is a proportional system, candidates are awarded delegates based upon the percnetages they recive from the voters or the caucuses.

            it's Senator Clinton that has it all wrong, she's making a claim for something that isn't there. Here's from the article it spells it all out:

            "It’s not just winning a little bit," he said. "In order to close the gap on pledged delegates, she’s got to win a very significant victory."

            And Mr. Durbin, Mr. Obama’s fellow Democratic senator from Illinois, said the mathematics of the electoral calendar would make it very difficult for Mrs. Clinton to win the nomination even if she broke even with Mr. Obama in the delegates allotted Tuesday.
            "If, in fact, there is no measurable change on Tuesday," he said on Fox, Mrs. Clinton would need "extraordinary percentages" in the remaining contests — averaging 62 percent of the delegates yet to be decided, by his calculation, to go on to victory.
            "I hope ultimately she makes an honest appraisal of her chances," Mr. Durbin said. "I hope after Tuesday her decision is made on the basis of the unity of the party."

            "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

            by Wary on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 05:52:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  May I add (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          teacherken, Philoguy, Wary

          that neither Barack Obama nor his surrogates suggested Hillary exit the race to date despite the fact that she has lost 11 contests in row.

          Would she and Mark Penn and Howard Wolfson have done the same for him if the reverse were true? Or would they have suggested that it was time for him to exit the race and unite the party.

          •  Who knows what they would have done? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            catfish

            It's impossible to answer hypothetical questions.

            Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

            by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:59:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You can predict future behavior based upon past (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Philoguy, Wary

              behavior. The whole premise of your diary is that based upon Hillary's past behavior, she will willingly exit the race if she realizes on Wednesday that it is not possible to win the primary.

              That said, we can utilize this same premise to predict what Wolfson, Penn and Clinton would have said if Barack had lost 11 primaries in a row.

              Given they just put out a statement saying that if he does not win all four primaries on Tues that this is indicative of a serious problem for him, I think we can surmise their reaction if he just lost eleven in a row.

              However, the crux of my argument is that considering that until today no one even vaguely suggested she exit the race, it is difficult to argue that she has been disrpected on this issue.

      •  Huh??? (0+ / 0-)

        So, Obama supporters need to shut up so you can get your voters out to vote for Clinton so she can win?

        I'll trade you that for taking those 12 generals off TV who are supporting Hillary.

  •  Durbin and Kerry are appealing (0+ / 0-)

    to Hillary to not make this a campaign for superdelegates. It's almost impossible for her to win the delegate count without huge wins in Texas and Ohio, yet her staff insists that she will continue barring huge losses in TX and OH. Kerry and Durbin are just trying to avoid a convention vote, which no one wants outside of Hillary's campaign.

    "Pardon me, I thought you were a trout stream"

    by frankzappatista on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:32:13 PM PDT

    •  That's fine. (0+ / 0-)

      Call her on the phone and say that.  Don't do it on CNN.

      Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

      by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:33:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My guess (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Wary

        and there is no way to know for certain, is that they have approached in more subtle off the radar ways but that there is a concern that the message has not gotten through [harken back to Ted private telephone Kennedy's conversation with Bill prior to his endorsement of Obama--he felt that his message was not getting through and the only way to get their attention was to publicly endorse the other guy].

      •  They HAVE CALLED her on the phone (0+ / 0-)

        and often, I've heard them say it over and over again, of course they don't report what was said, just the other day Senator Dodd said he talked to the Clintons, and he said, believe me it was not a pleasant discussion.

        kerry's said the same a time or two, and Kennedy--so of course they've attempted to do this in private with no agreement, believe me, they in no way wanted to take this to the media, they know they will be blasted heavily, but they made an appeal based upon the fact that they've no no success in private so they went public about it.

        They also are very aware of all the now daily strategies she's putting out on how she 'can win'--it's almost daily now, always chaning the goal posts, always some new way to keep her supporters to keep on going and they know that if she doesn't do something very soon, this will most negatively split the party apart.

        Believe me, the Republicans this weekend were actually rubbing their hand in delight that Hillary promises to 'fight on' and they encouraged her to in one breath and then said--yeah then the Democarts will ahve to spend all this money in their primaries and willleave them much less to fight in the GE--oh, and it will probably end in a big fight and we will make a lot of traction off that which will help us win in Nov.I actually watched them say these things and I have been so upset of the possibility of my Party LOSING from this long, drawn out affair.

        "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

        by Wary on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 06:06:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I just saw Bill Richardson on Face The Nation (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Philoguy, Wary

    and he certainly got as close to endorsing Obama as possible.  I read stories earlier in the day saying he was being coy, but I read something different.  

    I heard a threat, for better or worse.  

    Cut out the McCain talking points, or I will pull a Ted Kennedy and endorse your opponent.  It was pretty clear to me.

    I am not sure at this point that this will be a clean hand-off...

    I am envisioning some serious bridges being burned in the next 2 to 3 weeks.

    "So this is how liberty dies, to the sound of thunderous applause..." -Senator Padme Amidala - Star Wars Episode III

    by justmy2 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:35:22 PM PDT

    •  Bill Richardson is free to endorse (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      catfish, Dave from Oregon

      whomever he wants.  A lot of politicians are jumping on the Obama bandwagon right now.

      But calling for Hillary to withdraw before the votes have been cast is insulting.

      Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

      by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:36:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no one called on her to withdraw before Tues (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Wary

        which is when the votes will be counted

        and when in all likelihood it will be clear that she not only cannot win the contest for elected delegates, she cannot even hope to close the margin

        and at that point she should be considering withdrawing before she is confronted with superdelegates forcing her out by jumping to Obama.   That is what Kerry and Durbin are saying, and your persistent and deliberate misinterpretation of their words does neither your candidate nor you any good.

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:43:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If she loses on Tuesday (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          catfish

          I think that she should quit, but that decision needs to be left to her and to the extent that party officials get involved, it needs to happen behind closed doors.

          Look, if Obama is the nominee, I want him to win.  In a way, it's hard for me to keep saying this because I am so dedicated to Hillary and her campaign.  I am willing to make phone calls, send emails, and blog for him if he wins.  In exchange for this support I am asking that his campaign and his surrogates treat my candidate with respect and allow her a graceful dignified exit.  Not one paved with public calls for her withdrawal.

          Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

          by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:48:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  When is Obama (0+ / 0-)

          going to renounce all the republican voters for a day who cross over to vote for him in order to Take Hillary Out Once and For All - and then will revert to voting republican in the fall? He does not win when the voters are restricted to Dems only. Seems that is never discussed over here.

      •  If she loses on Tue. her super delegates will go (0+ / 0-)

        to Obama by the end of this month.

        McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.

        by Lefty Coaster on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:56:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Some of her delegates have been (0+ / 0-)

          Wanting to LEAVE already

          But she's appointed Ickes to be in charge of calling them and begging them to wait till after Tuesday--I read it yesterday in an article from Ickes himself.

          here we go:

          The chief responsibility entrusted to Ickes now is wrangling superdelegates for Clinton, or at least persuading them not to commit until after the March 4 contests in Texas and Ohio.

          Here’s the case he’s been making: "Mr. Obama has just become the frontrunner. He has not been subjected to any real degree of scrutiny by the press."

          Then, he says, he tells superdelegates that "we have an obligation" to wait and pick the best candidate for the Democratic Party. "We can’t nominate a candidate who can’t withstand the withering attacks of the Republicans

          http://www.observer.com/...

          "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

          by Wary on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 06:20:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  How do private discussions (0+ / 0-)

    preserve Senator Clinton's dignity?
    How does she lose face if there are public calls for her departure from the race?

    But premature calls for her withdrawal are insulting to Senator Clinton and her supporters.  These discussions need to remain private, preserving the dignity of Senator Clinton and the enthusiasm of her supporters.

    •  Public calls for her withdrawal are insulting. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      catfish

      She's not some crazed insurgent hell-bent on tearing the temple down around our heads.  She is a dedicated Democrat with a history of service to the party.  These public comments are unnecessary.

      Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

      by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:38:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If this race is not over by March 4, the party... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Wary

    destructs.

    That is why Richardson effectively said that if one candidate has a real lead on March 4, the other should withdraw.

    I ask Clinton supporters to ask how high a price they will pay for victory? More 3AM advertisements that look like they were produced for McCain 08 campaign?

    Comments that she takes Obama at his word he is not a Muslim?

    Playing the race card again, a la alienation of the black vote by comparing Obama's SC victory to Jesse Jackson's?

    Mocking the supporters of Obama as naive fools?

    Dismissing the independents, youth, and republicans who voted for a democrat?

    Dismissing more states as insignificant if she does not win?

    Failing to offer a customary concession speech after losses?

    The Obama campaign (but maybe not all of us in the blogosphere) has been largely respectful of Clinton, her views, her accomplishments, and her supporters. I respect her but the Clinton campaign has been much more negative on those scores and this past week has gotten more so to the point of internecine fighting.

    Why did these people speak out publicly about dropping out? Not sure if it was wise for the campaign of Obama (which I imagine did not sanction those statements), but it seems to make sure the Clinton campaign does not take the loss of 20% points leads in March 4 states to mean the failure of Obama? To make sure that this is not a fight over seating Fla and Mich and getting superdelegates to vote against the winner of the vote count and pledged delegate count. Maybe that is why they spoke out?

    We have a natural right to make use of our pens as of our tongue, at our peril, risk and hazard. Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique, 1764

    by MMW on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:39:41 PM PDT

    •  Obama may believe is Holier Than Thou (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      catfish

      but he's not.

      I'm angry about the race card.  I'm offended that the Clintons were accused of racism.  I'm pissed that Teddy endoursed Obama because he was angry about Hillary's comments about LBJ.

      I'm angry that Obama belittled Hillary's time as First Lady--the having tea comments.

      I'm angry that the MSM has given such glowing coverage to Obama.

      But you know what?  That's politics and I'll get over it and support whomever the nominee is.

      Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

      by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:44:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the clintons were not accused of racism (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Wary

        -they were accused of using the race card. Big difference.

        Obama has said some dumb things - the tea comment, the likable enough comment.

        I look forward to the analyses after this race is over. I suspect the narrative of "glowing coverage" will be shown false (I have seen news reports of the cult, silly stories about an epidemic of fainting, stories about Obama getting cocky, stories about his lack of experience). Clinton has gotten a pass on tax returns, about the Clinton foundation and its donors and their use of Bill Clinton, about her 35 years of experience.

        She was frontrunner and was subject of press scrutiny. As Obama became front runner, press scrutiny has shifted to him. Get over it already. If she loses, it is not the press's fault and is not Obama's supporters fault. She ran a crappy campaign from January through February - that will be the narrative.

        We have a natural right to make use of our pens as of our tongue, at our peril, risk and hazard. Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique, 1764

        by MMW on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:53:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not blaming the press. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          catfish

          The point I was trying to make is that we all have grievances.

          And Barack Obama has not faced nearly the scrutiny that Hillary has faced.

          Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

          by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:56:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The WERE accused of racism. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          catfish

          What did they mean when they said "race card" and "race-baiting"?

          Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

          by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:57:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  to the dictionary please (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Wary
            Merriam-Webster racism: "racial prejudice or discrimination"

            No one said the Clintons were prejudiced or discriminate against African-Americans.

            Encarta Race Card: "to use the issue of race, e.g. in legal argumentation or in a debate, to win an advantage or make a point (informal)."

            What they said was they used the issue of race to make a point. I guess Obama has too, albeit a postive use vs. a negative use...

            Please show me a quote where they called Clinton Racist and I will reject and denounce it.

            And did Bill Clinton not understand the Jesse Jackson quote? Come on, let us not be naive.

            I think both campaigns have slung attacks back and forth, some disturbing to me and many others. But let us be honest about what those attacks are. I will take your point that many Clinton supporters may have felt they were being called racist. But I must disagree that was the case.

            We have a natural right to make use of our pens as of our tongue, at our peril, risk and hazard. Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique, 1764

            by MMW on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 05:21:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  What is with this holier than thou crap? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Wary

        Alot of Obama supporters are pissed about being labeled naive fools and constantly hearing that our candidate has no substance but we don't spend as much time complaining about it.

        We are equally annoyed by her glowing coverage in which for months she was the annointed candidate, the inevitable candidate who could do no wrong but as you said, that's politics.

        The difference was that our candidate said as much. He didn't make excuses for losing. He said if he lost, it was his campaigns fault, not race, not the media.

        BTW, the charge wasn't racism, it was opportunism. I don't think Bill is a racist as much as I think they would both do anything to win including the use of race as a wedge issue.

        •  Obama (0+ / 0-)

          keeps saying that he is above Washington politics and then he gets caught playing Washington politics.

          And how is playing the race card NOT racist?

          Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

          by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 06:33:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Get back to me when you can explain what (0+ / 0-)

            "race card" he has played. BTW, if you want to talk about playing a card, the Clinton campaign has redefined playing the gender card, and I say this as a woman. Every other word out of their mouths is that someone has attacked her on the basis of sex.

            Sometimes you have to admit that your campaign screwed up and get over it.

            •  His campaign was very actively (0+ / 0-)

              pushing the race card.

              Jesse Jackson, Jr went on TV the night of the NH primaries and said that she cried for failing campaign but not the victims (READ: poor BLACK victims) of Hurrican Katrina.

              His campaign was also distributing a list of racially charged quotes in SC.  When he found about it, he put a stop to it.

              Aside from talking about breaking the glass ceiling, how exactly has she played the gender card?  I don't see it.

              For me, this is all politics.  It's a really competitive campaign.  The historic candidates puts everybody in new territory.

              Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

              by psychodrew on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 04:40:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  There are plenty of her supporters (0+ / 0-)

      who don't trust Obama or don't think he's ready to be President and feel the party is better off if he loses and someone with more experience runs in 2012.

      Don't shoot the messenger, I know they're nuts, but that's the facts.

  •  Well, their point is correct. If she breaks even (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Wary

    on the 4th, she'll be down at least 165 (certainly Obama picks up 5 net delegates in Wyoming [the most insigificant state, very red, very small, and a caucus] and Mississippi [has a very large and proud African-American electorate] combined).

    That would meant that she'd have to win 64% of the 594 pledged delegates remaining after the March contests are over in order to come out ahead in pledged delegates.

    If, as seems very likely, Obama at least ties her in North Carolina, she'll have win to 67% of the rest of the vote

    If Obama ties her in NC and manages 40% of the delegates in PA, she'll have to win 70% of the rest of the vote.

    If he manages 40% in IN (which looks good as well since he's polling ahead of her 40-25 currently) as well, she'll need 75% of the delegates in West Virginia, Kentucky, Oregon, South Dakota, Montana and Puerto Rico.

  •  good diary... (0+ / 0-)

    and a point worth mentioning...and reiterating.

    One thing, though. Please don't let Obama supporters make your decision for you. He has no more conrtol over them as McCain has over Rush. Just recognize it for what it is: people who vent because they care, and leave it at that.

    Avoiding candidate diaries is also recommended. Like I do. I don't much like the diaries for my candidate, either.

    "The cure for bullshit is fieldwork."
    --Robert Bates, Department of Government; Harvard University

    by papicek on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:47:43 PM PDT

    •  I understand your point. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      papicek

      I would add that Obama and his campaign have held Hillary's feet to the fire over comments her supporters made.  As we have learned this year, it is hard to separate the candidate from the surrogates.

      Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

      by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:50:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Shaheen in NH, for one... (0+ / 0-)

        I agree totally.

        She's a Clinton, and it's really, really hard for her to lower expectations. A huge problem for her.

        Everybody knows she's bright, committed and competant so any faux-pas is news of a sort. Anything we hear about Obama is news, simply because nobody knows him well. He has impressed me on a lot of different levels, but to be honest, so has Hillary.

        I don't even think Obama is that good a public speaker, that his delivery is often off a bit. He gets past this by saying exactly what I'd like to hear though. Often enough, anyways.

        "The cure for bullshit is fieldwork."
        --Robert Bates, Department of Government; Harvard University

        by papicek on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 05:05:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you all for reading! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    catfish, Wary, vls3936

    And thank you for the comments, even the negative comments--they show that you care.  ;)

    It's Monday morning here in China and I have to go to work.  I'll reply to your comments during my lunch break later.

    Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.

    by psychodrew on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:58:33 PM PDT

    •  Thank you for this comment (0+ / 0-)

      And honestly even though I've been one of those 'negatives' you bet I do care, I care very much always have been a proud, hard working Democratic Party supporter, all my long adult life since the 68 election.

      I've also learned a lot in this thread.

      I wish you well, and I think honestly with openess and a willingness to listen and to discuss, the party will be unified, and very soon!

      "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

      by Wary on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 06:30:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good diary (0+ / 0-)

    I don't think it helps Obama at all if we pressure his opponents to drop out for fear of dividing the party.

  •  Plus these calls (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    psychodrew, vls3936

    are deepling insulting and distressing to the voters of MI, FL, PA, WY, MISS, etc. It's a close race, there are states left to vote...let them vote. It would be absurd for Hillary to drop out with 50% of the votes, strong fundraising, great momentum...absurd.

    We won't let her...she's going to be our nominee because she's winning the democratic votes and democrats want to pick a democrat for the nominee of their party. Not some lieber-dem that has no spine and doesn't stand for democratic values. Plus he can't stop lying and I've had it with politicians who lie without shame.

    He'll never get my vote.

  •  John Kerry (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    psychodrew, vls3936

    So John Kerry thinks Clinton should pull out early like he did in Ohio in 2004. Listen carefullly to Kerry and just do the opposite.

  •  BO is correct: independents won't vote for hill (0+ / 0-)

    ..to be healed/the broken thing must come apart/then be rejoined.

    by Zacapoet on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 06:19:56 PM PDT

  •  Good Diary and great discussion (0+ / 0-)

    Unfortunately, I usually see very nasty rhetoric on here when an open discussion is wanted. So ugly. I again state that the percentage of people in the U.S. not willing to have a black president is overwhelming, the same racism boils over here to sexism. Whatever, I wish everyone well in unifying this party. I am simply not going to run to the GE and vote for Obama. I need to truly vote as green as possible and right now if Hillary is out soon, Obama has simply carried over and said the exact same thing she has been saying all along about restrictions and standards (check Grist report), and she is by-far the strictest of all candidates.

Permalink | 100 comments