Daily Kos

The Lost Tradition of Biblical Debt Cancellations

Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:21:16 AM PDT

It being Easter Sunday, when Christians are supposed to celebrate Christ’s defeat of death (entropy) I thought it appropriate to share an awesome 1993 study by heterodox economist Michael Hudson I discovered two weeks ago: The Lost Tradition of Biblical Debt Cancellations (the link to the pdf file is near the bottom of the page, just above "books"). In my humble opinion, this document has the potential to undo centuries of damage done to Christianity and Judaism by oligarchs and usurers.

Especially in the context of the ongoing economic and financial crises, in which it is clear that we the people are being sacrificed to save a rotten and useless financial system – bailouts for Bear Stearns and Wall Street, but not foreclosed homeowners - Hudson’s study is very powerful. So first let me set the context.

First, I want you to think of how much debt the financial system can create. Then, think of how much wealth, in terms of physical goods, the real economy can create. As Eric Zencey explained in a post on European Tribune two weeks ago, The roots of the subprime crisis, there is a fundamental mismatch: Through the magic of compound interest, the financial system can create an unlimited amount of debt. The real economy cannot do the same for physical wealth.

This simple insight is one of the fundamentals of ecological economics. From  Zencey:

When you understand the thermodynamic roots of economic life, and when you understand how our financial system flouts thermodynamic law, you can see that regular crises like these are a structural requirement of our system.

Current economic wisdom treats phenomena like inflation, bankruptcy, and the failure of bond issuers to meet their obligations as economic pathologies: wouldn't it be nice to see an end to these things?  Maybe with good management we can cruise along without them.

But inflation, bankruptcy, and the failure of bond issuers to meet their obligations are all forms of debt repudiation, and our system has a built-in requirement for some form of debt repudiation, because it lets debt (which is a claim on future real wealth) grow faster than real wealth.  

Debt grows through the charging of interest.  In the neoclassical economic paradigm, charging interest is normal, but bankruptcy, bond failures, and inflation are not.  Paradox, huh?

SNIP

Debt is a claim on future wealth--a claim on real wealth, actual things, not just "monetary wealth."   Frederick Soddy was the first to distinguish between these; he was a Nobel Laureate in Chemistry who wrote a series of books in the 1920s arguing that economic theory ignored physical reality--the reality described by the laws of thermodynamics.  As he put it:

"Debts are subject to the laws of mathematics rather than physics. Unlike wealth, which is subject to the laws of thermodynamics, debts do not rot away with old age and are not consumed in the process of living. On the contrary, they grow at so much per cent per annum, by the well known mathematical laws of simple and compound interest."

Daly, following Soddy, explains what happens when society pits a mere convention (our practice of letting interest compound infinitely) against the physical reality of finite planet ruled by the laws of thermodynamics. Debt, he says, can theoretically grow  forever, but real physical wealth cannot, "because its physical dimension is subject to the destructive forces of entropy....Since wealth cannot continually grow as fast as debt, the one-to-one relation between the two will at some point in time be broken- i.e. there must be some repudiation or cancellation of debt. The positive feedback of compound interest must be offset by counter acting forces of debt repudiation, such as inflation, bankruptcy, or confiscatory taxation"  -- all of which are seen as pathological phenomena in economic systems.

So:  a system that lets debt grow faster than real wealth grows is a system that needs periodic bouts of debt repudiation:  bankruptcy, inflation, failed bonds, or other financial events in which claims on real wealth are wiped out.

This would all seem to be basic common sense so far, but think of how someone on Wall Street or in the futures pits of Chicago would view this. They would be horrified, because you are basically telling them that there are limits to how much debt, how much financial paper, they can create. In other words, there are limits to how much money they can make creating and selling financial paper. They will argue with you that much of that financial paper is not really debt, some of it is equity, some of it is options, some of it is only agreements to swap types of payment flows or currencies. They are correct, in a narrow sense of strict definitions as used in the financial system but they are not correct when viewed in terms of the overall dynamic of the interlinks and relationships between the economy and the financial system. It is never in the self-interest of the financial system to ever admit that there are limits to the amount of debt it can float and trade, because, quite simply, the more debt that is floated and traded, the more "profit" the financial system can "make."

savingvsdebt

In fact, almost exactly a year ago, Woody Brock, president of Strategic Economic Decisions Inc., in Deconstructing Today's Ongoing Revolution In Finance argued that

there is a theoretically optimal value of contracts that ideally "should" exist: Incredibly, it is a number millions of times larger than today's value (see below). Finally, even if there is a freeze-up and/or meltdown in the future, extinguishing millions of contracts in the process, then the volume of contracts would once again soar thereafter. . . . at least in theory, there would be infinite derivative contracts.  

Brock’s article typifies what is fundamentally wrong with this age of Wall Street finance: you have elegant and sophisticated models that are mathematically true when considered on their own terms but which fail miserably because they ignore the thermodynamic realties we mortals must exist in. Any blue collar bubba during the past thirty years could have, and did, tell you that the United States was committing economic suicide by shutting so much of its manufacturing base and relocating it overseas to take advantage of "cheap" labor. The trends were hideous, and were clear to anyone who cared to look.

FinancialTradingvsGDP
VirginiaCoalCountry1

Now the truth of what bubba was saying all along is becoming painfully clear. The great irony, of course, is that it is going to be bubba and his family that gets dealt most of the pain, while America’s elites, who disdain bubba and his earthly wisdom, scramble to survive by turning on the tap of government bailouts.  And this is a monstrous failing of national morality, which brings us to Professor Hudson’s The Lost Tradition of Biblical Debt Cancellations

THE once-glowing core body of law within the Judeo-Christian Bible has become all but ignored - indeed, rejected - by the colder temper of our times. This core provided for periodic restoration of economic order by rituals of social renewal based on freedom from debt-servitude and from the loss of one's access to self-support on the land. So central to Israelite moral values was this tradition that it framed the composition of both the Old and New Testaments.

Radical as the idea of canceling debts and restoring the population's means of subsistence seems to modern eyes, it had been a conservative tradition in Bronze Age Mesopotamia for some two millennia. What was conserved was self-sufficiency for the rural family-heads who made up the infantry as well as the productive base of Near Eastern economies. Conversely, what was radically disturbing in archaic times was the idea of unrestrained wealth-seeking. It took thousands of years for the idea of progress to become inverted, to connote freedom for the wealthy to deprive the peasantry of their lands and personal liberty.

So far has the modern idea of market efficiency and progress gone that today, although the Bible remains our civilization's defining book, it is perceived largely as a composite of stories, myth and wisdom literature best epitomized perhaps in spirituals and hymns, not economic laws. The Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule have become so dissociated from the economic legislation of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy that whoever takes these laws in earnest is considered utopian and anachronistic if looking backward nostalgically, or radical if adopting there as a guide for current activism. Yet these laws formed the take-off point for Christ upon his return to Nazareth's synagogue, and for his denunciation of the money-changers who had taken over Jerusalem's temple. As late as medieval Spain the tradition of the Jubilee Year was kept alive by Maimonides and Ibn Adret. To dismiss these laws is thus to remove much of the Bible from the context of its times, above all from its Bronze Age Near Eastern matrix.

SNIP

Bronze Age rulers had pledged themselves to serve their local sun-gods by overseeing the rhythms of nature and society, periodically "proclaiming economic order and equity." But most such rulers were unseated by classical aristocracies which used religion and its priesthoods for increasingly narrow ends. To defend popular welfare against the incursions of these aristocracies, the authors of Judaism formulated the idea of a national covenant, placing moral order in the hands of their congregations at large. This populism was the counterpart to the civil law of Athenian democracy.

Jewish populism inverted the classical hierarchies of worldly power. Although the aristocratic Pharisee element within the temples asserted its own interests throughout the Hellenistic and Roman eras, Christ sought to restore the archaic ethic by overturning the banking tables in Jerusalem's temple and preaching anew the promise of Jeremiah to proclaim equity and liberty (deror) throughout the land. Indeed, it was specifically on this principle of restoring freedom to debt-slaves and unburdening the land that Christianity elaborated its ideas of redemption. In addition to redeeming souls, early Christians redeemed their co-religionists from worldly bondage. When Handel staged the first performance of his Messiah in Dublin in 1742, it was by no coincidence that the proceeds were used to free debtors from prison. For thousands of years, redeeming men and land from debt was the primary and most concrete form of redemption.

How the Axial Age took the Bronze Age proclamations of order out of the hands of kings
As creditor claims and private property spread outside of the public temples and palaces, the policy of regularly restoring economic freedom gave way to private accumulation of wealth at odds with overall social balance. Rather than being welcomed as ushering in an epoch of economic freedom, his privatization of hitherto communal land and public industry meant a loss of freedom for much of the population.

SNIP

. . . The first five books of the Old Testament were given their final form late in the fifth century, contemporary with the high tide of Greek democracy in Athens. In 444 BC, Nehemiah, a Jewish official at Persian-dominated Babylon who had risen to the position of cupbearer under Artaxerxes, was allowed to go to Jerusalem to rebuild it. He won popular support by canceling the debts and redistributing the lands that had been forfeited to local creditors. Making a second visit to Jerusalem, he solidified the groundwork for Ezra the scribe and his associated compilers, who reworked the Holiness Code of Leviticus into the idea of nothing less than a covenant with the Lord to promote economic justice in the land.

These Biblical redactors collated the stories of Moses recoiling against Egyptian inequity and leading the Exodus, of the conquest of Canaan behind Joshua, of the transition from judges to kings, and of the latters' backslidings which led the Lord finally to throw up his hands and let Israel and Judah be conquered by the Assyrians, Babylonians and Persians. The story of Israel's divine punishment served as a parable of how it would be rewarded for following a regime of economic justice but punished for permitting the wealthy to oppress the poor. The land was to be held in trust for the common weal, not relinquished to let the economically aggressive use it as a lever to achieve patronage over domestic clients and hence secular lordship over their countrymen (as occurred most notoriously in Rome). Unlike the case with the Bronze Age rulers who would be punished by their sun-gods for failing to promote social equity, the entire Israelite nation would suffer. Only in the modern era have these stories been decoupled from the laws concerning debt, land tenure and freedom from debt bondage that they originally were designed to wrap, and their social kernel thrown away.

SNIP

Christ's title of the Redeemer reflects the idea of saving debtors from debt-bondage. If it was their souls that he ultimately was redeeming from worldly shackles, financial power over debtors presented the ultimate test of a creditor's moral goodness. The moral is that charity toward debtors and other poor calls for forgiving their debts. Lending is put forth as the characteristic test for admission to heaven, for it is the most prevalent mode of exerting either coercive power or generosity with regard to one's fellow beings. Luke 6:35 cites Jesus’ admonition to "lend, without expecting to be repaid." Centuries of commentary on this passage by medieval Churchmen elaborated how this exhortation meant that a creditor should not demand to be repaid if the debtor cannot do so without injuring himself.

Jesus drove home the conflict he felt to exist between Jewish religious values and the selfish worldliness of creditors in his famous act of overturning the banking tables in Jerusalem's temple. The story is told in all four gospels (Luke 19, Matthew 21, Mark 11 and John 2). Upon entering Jerusalem, Jesus went directly to its temple, where he overturned the benches of the moneychangers and emptied out their moneybags on the floor. He also overturned the tables of merchants selling animals, and made a scourge of cords and "drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen" (John 2:15). Echoing the words of Jeremiah (7:11) some four centuries earlier, he announced that "My house will be a house of prayer, but you have made it `a den of thieves."' This is the only report in the Scriptures of his using violence, and it inspired the city's leaders to plot his death.

Jesus’ citation of Jeremiah was deliberately significant, for in this passage the prophet describes the Lord as threatening the Israelites not to make their land and its temples a den of thieves by oppressing aliens, orphans and widows, that is, the most seriously afflicted debtors. To prey on the weak, to monopolize the land and wealth is to seize what belongs to the Lord and his community. The relevant commandment accordingly is the Eighth: Thou shalt not steal. The great absentee landlords were stealing the land and freedom of the Israelites, and thus their destiny. Should the people fail to recall the Lord's spirit and rectify matters, they would suffer national perdition.

The Eighth Commandment in Canon Law, Lutheranism and Calvinism
Neither Hebrew, Greek nor Latin had separate words to distinguish between "interest" and "usury. " The distinction is a product of Canon Law seeking to carve out a form of financial gain (interesse that could be taken by Christians legitimately in the face of the Biblical strictures against neshek (Hebrew), tokos (Greek) and Faenus (Latin).  

These long-lost principles of debt forgiveness, economic justice, and community will have increasing importance as today’s financial and economic crises drag more and more people down into impoverishment, misery, and desperation, leading to an increasingly militant assault on the reigning school of economic thought, the radical free market neo-liberalism of Milton Friedman, Margaret Thatcher, and Ronald Reagan.

I will end by quoting Hudson’s conclusion:

The Biblical idea of "freedom and justice" connoted a concrete debt cancellation and the return of the land to its cultivators for their own self-support. For the Biblical authors, alien appropriation of the land was to be ended. The Lord provided the earth for the welfare of all, not just for the wealthy to achieve patronage power over the poor and disinherited. Israel was threatened that foreigners would take possession of its land if it veered from the path of social righteousness. Isaiah (1.7) thundered against Sodom that "Your fields are being stripped by foreigners right before you," and that (1.23) "Your rulers are rebels, companions of thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts."

SNIP

The Old Testament prophets would announce that the time has come to restore equity (appropriately at the turn of the Millennium).

Jesus would find in the international and domestic debt burden a moral test. of national self-centeredness vs. openheartedness.

Medieval Canon Law would find that most of today's debts have no counterpart in creating mutual gains between borrower and lender, and thus constitute parasitic usury rather than economically valid loans deserving interest.

Classical economists would draw the same distinction between productive and unproductive loans.

Only in the most recent decades have minds shut to questioning the social, moral and economic consequences of debt. What once was the core of social renewal and religious ethics has now become the Unthinkable. That is the ultimate irony which may strike future social historians looking back on our era.

Tags: Michael Hudson, economic crisis, financial crisis, credit crisis, religion, debt forgiveness, heterodox economics (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 28 comments

  •  Tip jar (11+ / 0-)

    More from Hudson's article:

    The Jubilee year described in Leviticus 25 is to be proclaimed every fiftieth year. America's Liberty Bell is inscribed with a translation of this passage's exhortation to "Proclaim liberty (deror) throughout all the land, and to all the inhabitants thereof." Rather than signifying general political liberty, the idea was more akin to freeing bondservants from debt-servitude. It meant the liberty to rejoin their natural families rather than having to remain in their creditor's household. Israelite families who had lost their land as a result of economic hardship were to be assured new plots in their traditional ancestral lands so as to provide them with the means of self-support.

    A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

    by NBBooks on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:23:25 AM PDT

    •  Well said! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      marykk, Neon Vincent

      And it is interesting to consider that in some tangible respects,  the "law" 2500 years ago was more generous to the poor than we are today.

      Along with the Jubilee year,  the corners of the fields was another bit of Biblican ingenuity I think.  

      The faster we go, the rounder we get.

      by RedBlueNoMore on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:50:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Short Form: Forgive Us Our Debts (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, farmerchuck, marykk, Neon Vincent

    I don't know the translational history of Jesus' "Lord's Prayer," but that rendition that I grew up with --as opposed to the common "trespasses" -- jibes very well with the Hebrew jubilee tradition.

    Even more interesting, our church is Presbyterian with its roots in stereotypically penny-pinching Scotland. And yes I'm of Scots descent btw.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:34:17 AM PDT

  •  Forgiven Debt (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    notrouble

    Forgiven debt=bank depositors losing their money.

    Are we all willing to lose what's in our savings accounts?  I'm not.

    •  That's flatly ridiculous (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      marykk

      On so many levels. But thanks for bringing the right-wing framing into the conversation. Had to be somebody, I guess...

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:48:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ridiculous? (0+ / 0-)

        A bank takes deposits from investors, and lends them out to borrowers.  If the loans are foregiven, the bank can't make good on deposits.  What am I missing?

        •  What you're missing (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          NoMoreLies, marykk

          is that the Wall Street "miracle" of securitization (i.e. derivative contracts) has broken the old-fashioned link between taking deposits and lending out loans. And that's the problem we have now. Rather than bailing out the securitizers, like Bear Stearns, the Fed should be focusing its efforts on priming the pump for the local commercial banks that should be the bedrock of lending for real economic activity. Bear Stearns should have been allowed to collapse, and if it took most of Wall Street with it, so much the better. What we need to save is the commercial banking system that actually lends to local businesses and entrepreneurs. The investment bankers can go rot in hell - which is exactly the fate they are pushing the rest of us toward.

          A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

          by NBBooks on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:56:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  how is it ridiculous (0+ / 0-)

        someone is expecting those loans to be repaid.  maybe you imagine they are all cigar smoking fat white men with pig snouts, but that doesn't make it so.

    •  Well, what I'm thinking (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      NoMoreLies, marykk, Dar Nirron

      is we outlaw all those ARMs resetting to higher interest rates - people can pay their mortgage at the low teaser rates, so freeze the rate at the low rate. The people who lose are the investors that bought Mortgage Backed Securities based on people paying higher interest rates downstream.

      Second, reimpose usury laws - no more car loans and credit card rates of 19 percent - cap rates at eight percent like they were in the 1950s. And anyone that has been getting buried under accumulating interest payments will have that portion of their debt forgiven (the interest accumulated under usurious interest rates, not the principal). Again, the people that lose are the investors that bought Credit Card Backed Securities based on people paying higher interest rates.

      Third, forgive third world debt. No more starving kids and shutting national health systems to pay off the IMF or the World Bank, or the money center banks of new York, London, Switzerland, Hong Kong.

      Finally, let's wipe out all or most of the college loans that young Americans are struggling under and get college grants back up from 1/3 of total costs to 3/4 like they were in the 1970s.

      A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

      by NBBooks on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:50:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unfortunately (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        marykk

        The "money center" banks of New York have offloaded most of this exposure.

        Many of these mortgage-backed securities were sold to foreign investors, including the Asian central banks and European commercial banks.  If these investors lose confidence in investing in the U.S., then we won't be able to finance our massive trade deficit anymore.  And it's also a bit of a foreign relations crisis.

        Other mortgage-backed securities are held in the average person's 401K plan (under your "fixed income allocation").

        And other loans which weren't packaged into mortgage-backed securities..  those are held by regional banks.. many of which are now in trouble (e.g. National City, Washington Mutual), and which could fail if forced to "foregive" debts.  Then either the FDIC has to bail out depositors, and it won't be long before U.S. government is bailing out FDIC (as for S&L crisis of early 1990s).

        I agree with many of your suggestions, by the way.  We should definitely reimpose usury laws and outlaw aggressive mortgage practices.  But "forgiving" debt is much more complicated that it sounds.

  •  I had a shorter diary about similar ideas. (0+ / 0-)

    See it here.

    To say my fate is not tied to your fate is like saying, "Your end of the boat is sinking."--Hugh Downs

    by Dar Nirron on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:03:13 AM PDT

  •  IIRC, Pat Robertson proposed a Jubilee year (0+ / 0-)

    during his presidential campaign.  It was taken about as seriously as any idea from Pat Robertson deserves to be taken, which is to say not at all.

  •  There are a few ways to do this (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    NoMoreLies, NBBooks

    The first is inflation with the condition that wages keep up. If inflation eats up one half of the current value of the dollar and your wages keep up then effectively your fixed debt is 1/2 what is was in current dollars. Likewise, wealth is cut in half. Your mortgage principle of $200,000 is now $100,000, but your bank savings account of $1000 is now worth $500 in current dollars. I think that Bernanke is favoring this solution.

    The second is to raise the upper income tax bracket, and possible create a super-income bracket. You would be taxing the rich to bail out the rich. This could be extended to Federal assistance packages for those whose incomes don't match their debts.

    The third is to liberalize the bankrupcy laws, and possibly include a "financial stress" debt reduction law which would in effect be a partial bankrupcy.

    The real long term problem is to fix the income distribution problem. It seems that as we move towards a trade and finance based economy income distribution gets more and more unequal. As a thought experiment imagine the past decade with far more equal income distribution. The net result is that Americans would be paying their way, instead of borrowing, and there would be less aggregate wealth. The result is greater economic stability.

    By the way, this is an important diary, but I doubt that it will get the attention that it deserves.
    Thanks NBBooks.

    •  super taxes are hard to work in a globalized (0+ / 0-)

      world, the money just flees.  and yes I know america has a law against it, but its hard to track.

    •  also (0+ / 0-)

      the idea of keeping wages up would negate one of the great advantages of this recent crash/semi-crash, that american exports are becoming competitive again.  infact europe and japan have both complained about the american dollar and its effects on our trade deficit.

      it is also unrealistic to "thought experiment" an economy in which you change one of the most important inputs(wage compensation) and then try to imagine everything else stays more or less the same.

      •  Wages generally kept up with (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        The Wizard

        inflation in the 1970s/80s. The mass erosion of wages did not begin apace until the late 70s. Furthermore, the high interest rates on insured deposits and other safe investments during this period of stagflation allowed savers to preserve the value of their money or even stay a little ahead.

        Nowadays, with inflation in necessities (food, fuel, housing, health care) well north of 10%/year for the past 5 years, and stagnant to declining wages and net worth (minus debts) for the bottom 90 percent of the wealth/income distribution, we also have crappy investments that justify the low savings rate. Interest rates on savings accounts, low risk bonds, and certificates of deposit are all below 5%, not keeping up with inflation. Even the stock market has been flat over the past 8 years as a whole.

        The cheap interest rates at below inflation rates were a Bush regime bait and switch technique to prop up the economy without increasing wages of average Americans. You can see how well that "worked" over the long term.

        "Without our playstations, we are a third world nation"-Ani DiFranco

        by NoMoreLies on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 02:29:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you can pine for (0+ / 0-)

          days from the 70's when the world was largely undeveloped.  I agree with you that massive globalization has put severe strain on the wages of the uneducated middle class.

          as for the "long term." the american dollar couldn't take our current account deficits regardless of what bush did.  not that he did anything particularly smart.  but as a matter of inevitability the account deficit would eventually trigger a fall in the dollar.  and since we undergo some kind of credit crisis periodically in a capitalist economy it looks like this is it.  

          •  Not just globalization.. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            NBBooks

            I agree with you that massive globalization has put severe strain on the wages of the uneducated middle class

            And the educated middle class. Wages for scientists and college professors has  remained largely stagnant over the past 10 years. The only workers who have seen appreciable gains are the finance elite and upper corporate management.

            A grotesquely regressive tax policy focusing on breaks for passive income, derivatives, and hedge funds, a culture of greed, and overpriced necessities have driven a redistribution of income and wealth to the upper 5% of the income distribution, and especially to the upper  1%. US CEO pay was less than 40 times the average worker pay in the 1970s, it is closer to 400 percent now. Distribution of income and wealth is as unequal as it was in the 1920s, and I doubt poor worker pay and maldistribution of resources was a result of "globalization" then.

            Bush's policies of borrow and squander, and for the first time, waging a war with tax cuts to the rich, was like pouring gasoline on a fire. Remember that this buffoon doubled our federal debt in 8 short years, a debt that took over 200 to accumulate.

            I am all for a Jubilee by increasing the top marginal tax rate to 75%, pulling out of Iraq, cutting the military budget in half, reinvesting some of our proceeds in engaging in a crash renewable energy and infrastructure program to provide well paying jobs to the average American, and clean up our environment, and reduce the annual deficit to pay off our debt, which is another hidden tax on Americans.

            "Without our playstations, we are a third world nation"-Ani DiFranco

            by NoMoreLies on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:20:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  income tax also destroys incentive to save (0+ / 0-)

              a larger tax on consumption instead of keep piling on income taxes would encourage savings.

              and america has some of the largest corporate tax rates on the planet.  its a very bad system where millions of dollars need to be spent by corporations to bribe politicials for loophole laws to get around our corporate taxes.  the problem with going after capital is capital is the most free and international economic weapon on the planet.  if its bad to invest in america because of grotesque taxes on corporations or investment people just won't.  there is no international boundary for capital investment, even lowly sacks like you and me can put our money almost anywhere in the world.

              •  Then why has the savings rate declined (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                NBBooks

                during the Bush Tax Cuts to a negative rate? Could it be that people below the top 5% have less money to save? Our federal taxes, including corporate,are regressive and lower than nearly any country, and when you consider how the taxes have been spent lately, a supreme waste. Corporate income tax receipts are lower than at any time in the last 75 years. And consumption taxes are regressive, unless we rebate the bottom of the income distribution, exempt necessities, or base the consumption tax on waste, CO2 or disposable packaging through a national tipping fee, with a simultaneous reduction in payroll taxes.

                The so-called "investment in America through Bush's tax cuts has occurred overseas, in cheap labor, and domestically in derivatives, hedge funds, and other gambling investments that have produced little in the way of productive benefit for average Americans except cheap Chinese-made goods.

                Your fact-freetalking points are unvarnished Grover Norquist/Rush Limbaugh tripe, and deserve to be troll rated unless you can cite links and facts.

                "Without our playstations, we are a third world nation"-Ani DiFranco

                by NoMoreLies on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:25:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  such horeshit lies (0+ / 0-)

                  the income tax is progressive not regressive, and its heavily progressive at that.  and your contempt for capital investment is a recipe for disaster.

                  http://taxprof.typepad.com/...

                  america has one of the highest and most punitive corporate taxes.  but who cares about that when populist rants work fine?

                  •  Do you even read the link I provided? (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Elvis meets Nixon

                    or spell "horeshit lies" (sic) correctly? Graphs from this page I linked to, taken from U.S. Govt. data, indicate that corporate income taxes, as of the year 2000 have decreased as a  share of tax receipts from 6% in the early 1950s to less than 1% in 2000, and that is before the bush tax cuts. Furthermore 3/4 of the 29 OECD countries collect more corporate taxes as a percentage of tax reciepts than the US as of the year 2000. Don't let facts get in the way of your assertions about US corporate taxes, or are you still living in the 1950s when they were much higher than today.

                    Also, with your personal attacks ("populist rants", horeshit(sic)lies) you are outing yourself as a Republican, and really should find some other forum to debate in. From the Daily Kos FAQ page:

                    This site is primarily a Democratic site, with a heavy emphasis on progressive politics. It is not intended for Republicans, or conservatives.

                    May i suggest a mixed board such as perspectives.com to  take your "debate" to? Your unsubstantiated assertions contribute little to the debate here. No more replies.

                    "Without our playstations, we are a third world nation"-Ani DiFranco

                    by NoMoreLies on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:04:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Capital investment for ordinary people is a crock (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                NBBooks

                there is no international boundary for capital investment, even lowly sacks like you and me can put our money almost anywhere in the world.

                And, with what surplus do us lowly sacks invest after necessities are paid for? The whole Bush economy was propped up on all levels by borrow and spend, and nearly everyone is tapped out.

                Haven't you heard that huge numbers of people are paying for necessities on credit? When these conditions begin to occur there is obviously something wrong with the system, and it is time to repudiate it.

                "Without our playstations, we are a third world nation"-Ani DiFranco

                by NoMoreLies on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:57:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  more than half (0+ / 0-)

                  of american households own equities.   and you're right people are idiots, they get used to a certain economic level and will go into deep debt to continue it.  such is life.

                  your entire economic ideas are based upon revenge and not even an ounce of sound thinking.  you might as well makeup a five year plan for us already.

    •  "financial stress" bankruptcy (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      The Wizard

      I don't know enough about what the law was before it was changed in 2005, but I wonder if a sort of "financial stress" bankruptcy was part of what was eliminated at the behest of the banks and credit card companies. Whatever the history, it is an excellent idea!

      A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

      by NBBooks on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 12:43:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So ancient peasants were free? (0+ / 0-)

    Riiiiiiiiiiight.

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