without comment.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...
4000
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This is a diary?!
(-7.88, -7.95) I'm a non-union non-Chicago machine blue collar Illinois Liberal- because I care!
by Poika on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:33:36 PM PDT
it is.
by vermont buffalo on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:34:18 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
BAGHDAD - Four U.S. soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb in southern Baghdad late Sunday, raising the death toll for American forces since start of the war to 4,000, according to the Pentagon. The grim milestone was reached less than a week after the fifth anniversary of the U.S. invasion to topple former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and coincided with a spate of violence across Iraq on Sunday that left at least 61 people dead. The attacks included rockets and mortars fired at Baghdad's U.S.-protected Green Zone and a suicide car bomb detonated at an Iraqi army post in the northern city of Mosul.
BAGHDAD - Four U.S. soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb in southern Baghdad late Sunday, raising the death toll for American forces since start of the war to 4,000, according to the Pentagon.
The grim milestone was reached less than a week after the fifth anniversary of the U.S. invasion to topple former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and coincided with a spate of violence across Iraq on Sunday that left at least 61 people dead.
The attacks included rockets and mortars fired at Baghdad's U.S.-protected Green Zone and a suicide car bomb detonated at an Iraqi army post in the northern city of Mosul.
The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda
by FireCrow on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:40:27 PM PDT
Tomorrow on Frontline Bush's War
McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.
by Lefty Coaster on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:32:34 PM PDT
And don't it just make you just want to start something Does it really have to fall apart? Before we're willing to do something! Can't we do something! Please, we gotta do something! Can't we stand up and just say NO!!! No more killing!! No more lying!! Nor more dying!! Can we stand up and just say NO?
Energy is neither created nor destroyed; it only changes form.
by SME in Seattle on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:59:50 PM PDT
for the heads up.
by Heart of the Rockies on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:11:49 AM PDT
.... "click this link" to a MSM source somebody else wrote.
John Doolittledump Doo Vote Brown
by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:39:15 PM PDT
... what else is there to say... This a milestone we shouldn't have hit because we shouldn't have been there in the first place...? We've heard all that before.
The starkness of the diary speaks volumes actually.
Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain.
by Jen K in FLA on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:49:54 PM PDT
on the same subject says even more http://www.dailykos.com/...
from soonergrunt.
If you love Bush, Vote John McCain '08
by biscobosco on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:49:31 PM PDT
.... remark.
by AmericanRiverCanyon on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:06:08 AM PDT
by bleeding blue on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:56:24 PM PDT
It is 4,000 all-too-short stories long, each taking a lifetime to write and tell.
by chicago jeff on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:05:02 AM PDT
May your entire existence be one sensuous, frolic-filled experience lived in defiance of care.
by Fonsia on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:02:08 AM PDT
I understand that the traditional media will treat this as some sort of milestone, but nothing changed after 1000, 2000, or 3000.
4000 means nothing more than 3999 or 4001. It's all tragic.
by Poika on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:48:53 PM PDT
look, nobody here is saying that the life of the 4000th soldier who died is somehow more important than the 3999th. It's a visual and cognitive milestone of the tragedy that is the Iraq war, and we're upset over it.
John McCain goes to bed every night after servicing by Joe Lieberman.
by bhagamu on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:52:51 PM PDT
Not trying to be argumentative. Peace.
by Poika on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:55:11 PM PDT
4,000 since they were all too many. Counting helps us to show we don't forget.
by NYFM on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:37:23 PM PDT
as it officially eclipses the number killed on 9/11 - where 3000 did not.
by leawood on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:02:43 PM PDT
This line of thinking needs to be stopped, because it associates this war with 9/11, which is a false link.
This war was conceived, planned, and executed without relationship to 9/11, except as a cover to brow-beat the public and more importantly Congress into cowardly subservience.
by dan porter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:10:50 PM PDT
It tells us that the blood of more Americans is on Bush's hands than those of Osama bin Laden's.
Never get the mothers too angry.
by pvlb on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:23:55 PM PDT
...is that if Bush would have taken us all on this horrible inane insane expedition it would have been 'ok', if only he could have kept the count under 4000.
I don't agree with that line of thinking.
There is no equalivance. Bush's war is wrong and immoral regardless of what bin Laden did.
by dan porter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:54:02 PM PDT
These brave solders signed up for this duty, the 3 thousand some innocent people in WTC didn't. There is no comparison.
That is not to belittle the men and women of the military and what they have endured. BushCo is responsible for their deaths. They can not wash their hands and have the blood ever come off. As far as I'm concerned, the only way their deaths will be vindicated is when George and Dick are tried in The Hague for the war crimes they have committed.
"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength", George Orwell, "1984" -7.63 -5.95
by dangoch on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:06:03 PM PDT
trusted our presidents/government/nation not to send them to war for no good reason. Their mistake was their faith that nobody would throw their lives down a rathole.
We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.
by david78209 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:35:27 PM PDT
their mistake isn't they were SENT on a fools errand.
One day when we need the army already SPENT
we will see the difference.
by 88kathy on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:40:45 AM PDT
"As far as I'm concerned, the only way their deaths will be vindicated is when George and Dick are tried in The Hague for the war crimes they have committed." Exactly. Maybe we can get a 2fer with Bin Laden AND Bush Laden.
Time for us DEMOCRATS to take our fight directly to "GET OFF MY JOHN!" McShame. BTW, can a CHIMP, FROG march? Let's find out ... IMPEACH BUSH!!!
by VT ConQuest on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:57:41 PM PDT
Remember, many of these soldiers have been stop lossed. Many of them are not active duty. They signed up for national guard duty, back door draft. The volunteer comment, one that Bush emphasized last week in his speech, irritates me.
Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. Abraham Lincoln
by melthewriter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:47:54 AM PDT
They signed up for this duty:
I, ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
That's pretty clearly not what they got. They signed up for 36 months, they signed up for economic opportunity, they signed up for all sorts of things they didn't get, and they didn't sign up for all sorts of things they are getting - stop-lossed, lengthened tours, poor or missing equipment, absent training.
4,000 dead, 25,000 deserted, over 30,000 wounded, and how many thousands wounded but not yet diagnosed? Add the families to all the above, and it's not much of a stretch to half a million Americans damaged in very real ways. Add the tens of millions of Iraqis and neighbors damaged and then add the damage to the world economy of this folly.
Amazing. Current Oath of Enlistment
by SMWalt on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:17:38 AM PDT
why, then it is really damning of anyone who says, "Well, they signed up for it."
Large numbers of enlistees sign up because they've got no future otherwise. They cannot pay for college. They cannot find a job. They cannot afford healthcare or pay for their baby's needs.
In other words, they have to. They HAVE to sign up. Because there is no alternative in the way this nation operates today.
Also, they should be able to rely upon the White House and the Pentagon to EQUIP them, to ONLY send them into battle when NECESSARY, to not lead wars of aggression, to be sane and sensible.
Many others were at the end of the 'contracts' and were stop-lossed, sent to war again and again. So, those are not volunteers. Others are National Guard and Reserves called up over and over, as if this is a national emergency. But it is not. It was an OPTIONAL war, that Bush decided he wanted to enjoy (Splendid Little Wars).
So, saying these are all volunteers is wrong on the facts alone.
The comment that 3000 died in NYC and the soldiers "signed up for it" is just pure BS in my book. First off, Saddam had NOTHING to do with NYC.
There's no reason to conflate the two stats together. Doing so is just reinforcing RepublicanConfusionPoints.
by YucatanMan on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:25:55 AM PDT
is there any real difference from the guy who drives the tank, from those who make it or pay for it?
by dark daze on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:36:40 AM PDT
...and I've already shown it in links for months. In fact, if anyone wants to get technical, Congress passed a law in 1999(under Clinton's watch) that set it as a goal for removing Saddam from power. Bush just made it the centerpiece of his legacy and lied to us to get the people and Congress behind and into it. War is bad enough when the truth is on your side. It's criminal when its based on lies, because over one million lives have been lost on both sides, lives that nobody can ever bring back.
"Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan
by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:47:34 PM PDT
You've shown it for months? Bush's Treasury Secretary, O'Neill laid it out in his book years ago. Let's at least be honest about this. This wasn't some hidden fact.
by pleon1967 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:31:13 AM PDT
...I've been posting the Bush Treasury Secretary O'Neill link for months. I wasn't taking personal credit for anything, just pointing out that as you said it is old news, and I'm not going to let the repubs try and re-write the history books in an election year, that's all. Feel all better now?
by ImpeachKingBushII on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:39:12 AM PDT
and a 100 more.
by bigforkgirl on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:18:57 AM PDT
I don't associate 9/11 with the war, as does anyone on this site, but many Americans do. That's why I thought many may see this number as a wake-up call.
by leawood on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:22:51 AM PDT
I didn't mean to call you an idiot, sorry, or make that implication!
The idea though, that Iraq is implicated in 9/11, and the linking of that though, is a ever-present in media, the daily narratives of most Americans, and endless innuendo by this Administration. They may never have claimed that Hussein was involved in 9/11, but they haven't gone out of their way to make this clear. And they have promoted a relationship between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorists that is, at best, tenuous.
My view is that anytime you put "Iraq" and "bin Laden" in the same sentence together you are inadvertently helping to promote the Bush administrations falsity.
by dan porter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:10:46 AM PDT
If I may, let me refer you to my post which tries to explain why we mark these milestones. Link
Iraq Moratorium. Do something.
by xofferson on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:42:51 PM PDT
...or in Bush's case to die for over 935 of Bush's lies about Iraq. Nobody should have been the FIRST ONE, and nobody but nobody wants to be the LAST ONE to die on Bush's altar of war, A WAR OF AGGRESSION FOR A FALSE MISSION BASED SOLELY ON LIES!
It is indeed a national tragedy, and a travesty that Bush is going to live to tell another lie, that he wasn't responsible for the untold misery and carnage! His hands are drenching with the blood of innocents!
by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:37:02 PM PDT
"Respect for the rights of others is peace." Benito Juarez
by Blue Boy Red State on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:42:49 PM PDT
here in Houston. My wife is already asleep. My daughter going about her bedtime ritual of brushing teeth and washing her face. The busy-ness of the day is done.
I came to the computer before I too turned in only to take a quick peek at the Kos community . So it was that I found this diary and this video. I know this music and it's resonance. I press play and let the choir play the chords of my heart while I contemplate the number and the loss. As I listen my daughter comes in to kiss me goodnight. She too pauses to listen.
The near silence of the diary is all one can say at this utterly unnecessary waist of life. One says the number softly and, looking down, imagines with sadness and compassion the numbers yet to be added. The sound of it rings in my mind, now hollow and broken and ringing of hubris and greed that becomes a thunder in my ear. This number is eloquent enough.
Just before she bends to kiss my cheek and say good night she works the math of this number in to something real. "Dad", she says, "that's the same as if one of every thousand people here in Houston were to be killed. That's a lot of people."
"Yes, it is, baby. It sure is."
"Ring the bells that still can ring, forget your perfect offering, there's a crack, a crack in everything...that's how the light gets in." -- Leonard Cohen
by doug in texas on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:39:44 PM PDT
an appointment from our Supreme Court. And more dire consequences will be coming from terrible decisions rendered by our friends Scalia and Company if Hillary's scorched earth policy is allowed to continue much longer. Superdelegates need to get off the fence now and sit on her until her campaign ends or else we're all doomed by even more out of touch and critically flawed decisions from the SCOTUS.
Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!
by tnichlsn on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:08:18 AM PDT
not here. Here we should commemorate a tragedy.
"4 months until we change the world!" -Barack Obama
by nklein on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:57:54 AM PDT
against war and warmongers and their enablers. Whenever and where ever the subject is broached. I'm sure casualties 4001- ? and their loved ones take no offense at my lapse of etiquette.
by tnichlsn on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:56:05 AM PDT
we are mourning for those brave souls and our nation. Do we really have to attack? Can't we just pause & reflect?
by nklein on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:31:21 AM PDT
all the kids are home and safe and getting the medical care they need. Until that happens, no I for one can't. I've got a nephew who was just called back to active duty. That pausing and reflecting isn't doing him or the other 100,000+ kids currently over there fighting this stupid war a damn bit of good either.
by tnichlsn on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:19:58 PM PDT
in a diary met to comemorate a horrible milestone.
by nklein on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:29:11 PM PDT
to our attention. But just for the record, this post does NOT conform to any of the guidelines for diaries on dkos.
It qualifies as a comment only.
Reality Window | dwahzon's village
by vbdietz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:36:12 AM PDT
Diaries should be substantive. A good guideline is that if you don't have at least three solid paragraphs to write about your subject, you should probably post a comment in an open thread, or in a recent diary or front-page post that covers a topic relevant to what you wish to write about.
link
My guess is that the Clinton campaign will come up with a plan to deal with spontaneity. -Charlie Cook
by waitingforvizzini on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:34:57 AM PDT
by scrutinizer on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:37:43 AM PDT
not a diary. Also it was a duplicate.
Duplicative diaries are prohibited. Please scan the recent diaries and front-page posts before starting to compose your own diary. This rule operates on a sliding scale. A repeat diary with minimal analysis or originality (particularly on "breaking news" items) is prohibited. Such diaries are subject to deletion without notice. But if you write on a recently-covered subject and provide original analysis or research, that is acceptable and in fact welcome.
by waitingforvizzini on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:57:02 AM PDT
you are vastly outnumbered by people who got the diarist's point and agree.
Republicans only care about republicans. Democrats care about the Republic.
by beaukitty on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:07:10 AM PDT
sentiment alone absent any real content. Thanks for making it personal real classy.
by waitingforvizzini on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:19:41 AM PDT
above is clear ratings abuse beaukitty
by waitingforvizzini on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:25:06 AM PDT
From Cambridge Dictionaries online:
sober (SERIOUS) adjective serious and calm "Anthony was in a very sober mood - I scarcely heard him laugh all night."
moment (OCCASION) noun a particular time or occasion "When would be the best moment to tell the family?"
At this calamitous moment of the 4,000th U.S. death in Iraq (a moment when 4,000 too many U.S. soldiers have died for our hubris), these words are the best our Administration can muster.
Vermont buffalo, you're right. What comment can be appropriate to the magnitude of the loss, or the crime?
Though a war may well be "too stupid," that doesn't prevent its lasting. Stupidity has a knack of getting its way. --Albert Camus
by GreenMtnState on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:17:44 AM PDT
The way it's written may not suffice for what would normally qualify for a diary. However, if you click the link and find out exactly what '4,000' refers to, you might change your opinion.
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." -Voltaire
by PsiFighter37 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:34:39 PM PDT
I saw this and immediately posted before clicking the link. Awful news, but this is still not a diary. Some thoughts or comments would help.
That said, still terrible to hear.
by Poika on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:37:12 PM PDT
.
by vermont buffalo on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:37:55 PM PDT
you have to stand in silence. This diary is okay by me.
Experience teaches only the teachable. -Aldous Huxley // We have a Democratic Congress now and there's still no oversight. - Carl Bernstein
by DontTaseMeBro on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:44:36 PM PDT
[silence]
Sweet are the uses of adversity...[Find] tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. -Shakespeare, As You Like It
by earicicle on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:45:59 PM PDT
ROAD2DC ... IGTNT
by snackdoodle on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:57:30 PM PDT
by bakenjuddy on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:52:12 PM PDT
There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who don't. -- Robert Benchley -5.75, -7.18
by Rogneid on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:02:52 AM PDT
Nothing wrong with a moment of silence.
Politics is like driving...if you want to go backwards, choose R. If you want to move forward, choose D.
by fireflynw on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:29:22 PM PDT
I wish similar respect for our dead soldiers could be shown in our workplaces, our schools.
For some reason, we react emotionally to round numbers like "4000". And I'm okay with that. Whatever it takes to generate more animosity towards this ridiculous war, you know?
How about the number of wounded? And -- more nebulous still -- what is the number of friends and family members devastated by the death or injury of their loved ones? How many lives has this war ruined? And all for greed.
We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok
by Hobbitfoot on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:54:40 AM PDT
by anotherCt Dem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:27:33 PM PDT
it's good to just stop, and let ourselves feel something, instead of always trying to intellectualize the horror of these wars.
I think that's the point of this diary.
HOPE: It's the new black. And it's WINNING!!
by Samwoman on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:47:17 PM PDT
Obama/McCaskill vs. McCain/Jindal? Call it a funny feeling.
by ShadowSD on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:59:27 AM PDT
of political performance art where the artist sits on a chair in the middle of a busy intersection before lighting the chair on fire in protest of traffic cameras. Something we might have missed otherwise.
"We are all atheists about most of the gods humanity has ever believed in, some of us just go one god further."
by psilocynic on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:39:59 PM PDT
travel through the intersection. Then think of all of those people being killed. Think of thousands of more being killed, too, w/ no one really knowing how many of them being killed.
Diaries like this, however short, can never be too numerous.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?
by RFK Lives on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 07:47:05 PM PDT
is about half the population of my entire home town. It is the entire undergraduate body of my alma mater.
When we think of it in terms that are personal to us, it becomes incomprehensible. What if all of those people that we knew were suddenly not there?
"Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama
by kath25 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:12:17 PM PDT
would be the same age as those undergraduates.
"No ... human ... would stack books like this."
by socratic on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:58:24 PM PDT
Q Tony, American deaths in Iraq have reached 2,500. Is there any response or reaction from the President on that?
MR. SNOW: It's a number
Press Briefing by Tony Snow James S. Brady Briefing Room 6-15-2006
I would hope tomorrow that some enterprising WH reporter asks the question: "Is it still a number, or should we consider it something far more than that? And by the way, we're 1,500 numbers past the time you called it a mere number."
I think reminding them that: 4,000 is about half the population of my entire home town. It is the entire undergraduate body of my alma mater. is a pretty good way to start.
"There's been a little complication with my complication"
by dash888 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:40:03 PM PDT
for a Memorial Day church service--15 minutes before, and 10 minutes after, adn non-stop through the entire service.
Even then, I only made a dent in the list then. I'd guess it would take 6-7 hours to read the whole list, speaking the names of the dead in a slow, measured, respectful manner.
We need not think alike to love alike -- Ferenc Dávid
by ogre on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:33:50 PM PDT
risk it all for what they thought was the right thing to do, could have accomplished in their lifetimes. Not only is Bush destroying our present, he's destroying our future, on many fronts. These two need to be held accountable.
by tnichlsn on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:39:54 AM PDT
And on Sunday I watched the high-speed chairlift whisking people, four at a time, up the hill for some fun. I thought of how long it would take that chairlift to carry four thousand people up the hill.
Skiing was not fun for me Sunday.
We need to end this.
Peace
On Liberation Day, 1/20/09, Americans will greet us with flowers and candy
by kamarvt on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:56:23 AM PDT
Only Democrats need to "pay for" any of their proposals; it's just understood that Republicans are "fiscal conservatives." - Atrios
by
