What does "God Damn America" Mean?

People seem to have their knickers in a bunch because a preacher said "God Damn America" gasp.  Can we stop our breathless dithering for a minute and ask what that phrase means?

"America" is neither good, nor bad.  It isn't a thing a god can "bless" or "damn"

Repress your tribal pride in our Olympic team.  Put aside your programmed images of mom, apple pie, the national anthem, the stars and stripes, and what our soldiers fight and sometimes die for.  

The term "America" is a sloppy shorthand often used for the people of the USA.

Sometimes it is used for the government of the USA.

In theory (but not always in practice), the government of the USA enacts the "will of the people".

Most of the PEOPLE in the USA don't agree that we should be in Iraq.  The government has a different idea.

Who exactly is accountable for the killing in our names?  The soldiers?  No.  I'm a vet and I know that the soldiers kill who the government tells them to kill.

The people?  If so, more through omission, than an act of commission.  We haven't stopped the yahoos that started the war 5 years ago.  Oops, our bad.  We weren't paying attention and were distracted by 9/11 and a recession and the dog ate our civics homework and the republicans were scary and looked so grown up in their flag lapel pins and we wouldn't want to make a sound and look bad if we got attacked again...

The administration?  I think the buck stops there.

Perhaps Reverend Wright is guilty of sloppy speech?  Perhaps it would have been more accurate if he had said:

God damn an administration that lies us into war for its own motives and ignores the protests of a majority of its citizenry when they call for peace.

God damn an administration that places itself above the law by working to skew election results, abrogating lawful treaties, and spying on its own citizens.

God damn leaders who with hubris respond to legitimate questions regarding their actions being at odds with the majority of the people by saying, "So?"

I would certainly give anyone who said that a standing ovation.

•  Can we get back to the real issues now?

  'cause what a pastor says in frustration is not appropriate for national debate exceeding 15 minutes.

  by Leftcenterlibertarian on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:51:01 PM PDT

  •  Note sermon below.

    This wasn't a moment of frustration, but a well-considered and richly textured sermon.

    by burrow owl on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:05:23 PM PDT

    •  and the reason

      it's important is because the MSM has spun this thing out of control by showing all these snippets completely out of context, as if this is what Rev. Wright conducts every single minute of every single sermon.

      by sam2300 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:11:24 PM PDT

      •  Being raised in an evangelical household,

        in which "context" was invoked anytime an unpleasant passage of the Bible needed to be elided, has given me a deep aversion to resorting to defenses based on "contextualizing" passages we fear are or will be taken as unpleasant.  I submit that this is one of those times.

        The context does precisely nothing to change the meaning of the sentence; what it does is present a series of reasons for the passage.  

        by burrow owl on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:18:01 PM PDT

      •  Agreed, but...

        Can "we" (us guys that might "get it") respond in such a way that we direct the discussion back to the real issue: Who gets to decide whether or not we go to war with Iran, who gets to pick the next justice for the Supremes, who gets to decide whether torture is US policy.

        Shame on the MSM... if we are too hysterical in our defense, we seem to give the allegation more charge.

        by Leftcenterlibertarian on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:42:13 PM PDT

    •  I would argue that

      the phrase "god damn america" was a moment of frustration.

      In keeping with his true purpose and intention of the sermon, a more appropriate comment would be...

      "God teach America, teach us that what we do to our own children is a failure, teach us that what we do abroad reflects poorly on all of us."

      How God should teach us this lesson could be left up to the observer but is much less inflammatory and should inspire much more thought about Wright's purpose instead of reactionary disgust.

      (However, I too disagree that his statement is all that inflammatory when taken in context)

      by masterxi43 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:52:16 PM PDT

      •  Harriet Beecher Stowe also said God damn America.

        I've got a diary compendium of all of the inflammatory statements by progressive Christians that could find their way onto Fox news, from the Bible until now.

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Here's one of them from Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin:

        For not surer is the eternal law by which the millstone sinks in the ocean, than the stronger law by which injustice and cruelty shall bring on nations the wrath of the almighty God.

        Yes, Harriet Beecher Stowe said God will damn America.  It was a product of frustration, yes, but it's not an accident.  

        This is what prophetic speech sounds like.  It's shocking, disturbing, and inflammatory. . . just like Amos, Hosea, and Isaiah.

        by maconblue on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:00:38 PM PDT

        •  I went to your diary maconblue

          I am sorry I didn't see it earlier - it was excellent.  

          by zett on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:16:44 PM PDT

•  Amen!

  by sam2300 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:51:08 PM PDT

•  Without the entire sermon

  no one  could guess. But in context, I took it to mean "shame on you."

  by MrMichaelMT on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:51:09 PM PDT

  •  The full sermon

    text and commentary here

    here is the relevant part

    3. He then speaks of the government in his Bible text and said the Romans failed. Then he said the British government failed even after it colonized the world. He said the Russian government failed. The Japanese government failed. The German government failed.

    “And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent, she failed. She put them on reservations.

    “When it came to putting her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in interment prison camps.

    “When it came to putting the citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains. The government put them on slave quarters. Put them on auction blocks. Put them in cotton fields. Put them in inferior schools. Put them in substandard housing. Put them scientific experiments. Put them in the lower paying jobs. Put them outside the equal protection of the law. Kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education, and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness.

    “The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three strike law and then wants us to sing God Bless America. Naw, naw, naw. Not God Bless America. God Damn America! That’s in the Bible. For killing innocent people. God Damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God Damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and she is Supreme. (me: most ministers would agree with this)

    “The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent. Think about this. Think about this. For every one Oprah, a billionaire, you’ve got 5 million blacks that are out of work. For every one Colin Powell, a millionaire, you’ve got 10 million blacks who cannot read. For every one Condi-Skeezer Rice, you’ve got 1 million in prison. For every one Tiger Woods, who needs to get beat at the Masters, with his Cablanasian hips, playing on a course that discriminates against women, God has this way of brining you up short when you get to big for your Cablanasian britches. For every one Tiger Woods, we’ve got 10,000 black kids who will never see a golf course. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent.”

    “Tell your neighbor he’s (going to) help us one last time. Turn back and say forgive him for the God Damn, that’s in the Bible though. Blessings and curses is in the Bible. It’s in the Bible.”

    Where government fail, God never fails. When God says it, it’s done. God never fails. When God wills it, you better get out the way, ‘cause God never fails. When God fixes it, oh believe me it’s fixed. God never fails. Somebody right now, you think you can’t make it, but I want you to know that you are more than a conqueror through Christ. You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.”

    He then went on to talk about the salvation of Christians through the death of Jesus Christ. The sermon ended with a song proclaiming, “God never fails.”

    by Grassroots Mom on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:58:04 PM PDT

    •  Frankly I find his sermon

      less offensive than one of our priests, who has added to the canon of the Mass "and may God defeat all the enemies of the United States."

      by MrMichaelMT on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:01:57 PM PDT

•  How I took it

  I did not need to hear the sermon. A lot of preachers say that a country will be judged based on how it (fill in the blank).

  by RandySF on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:52:57 PM PDT

•  Actually, I've seen the sermon on You Tube

  Wright is talking about the government.  The sermon is titled "God and Government."  Its theme is that while God is eternal and just, governments change, and often do evil, at which point they are brought low by God.

  He even has a nice little detour into positive changes in the U. S. government, talking about Harry Truman and Bill Clinton.

  by joe from Lowell on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:55:18 PM PDT

•  While you might be technically right

  It doesn't matter.  People hear "God damn America" and most have an emotional and guttural response to it.  Its not about logic.  Its about emotion.

  There was a lot of emotion in that sermon and it is effective in eliciting an emotional response.  And even as an avid Obama supporter I just really cringed when I heard it.

  The last couple weeks have been pretty enlightening.  I knew there was a lot of resentment and anger, and justifiably so.  But I didn't know just how much and just how alive and well it was.  And due to Obama's speech, I understand it even better.

  At the same time, it concerns me.  The anger and resentment that was behind the words of Reverend Wright and the words of Reverends of Black churches throughout the country, while very real and justified ... I wonder how helpful it really is.  Rather than heal the wounds, it seems like these sermons are more like ripping the scab off every Sunday.  There seems to be no hope in that message.  And without hope, what motivation is left in life?

  by Marc in CA on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:01:03 PM PDT

  •  Not Most . Only Those Who Can Use It Against You

    by ArtfromMI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:55:43 PM PDT

  •  In my life time

    The National Guard escorted a black girl to school.

    Fire hoses were turned on peaceful demonstrators.

    Civil rights marchers were lynched.

    MLK was assassinated.

    The Tuskegee experiments were exposed.

    The Supreme Court decided that inter-racial marriage was NOT illegal.

    I completely get that there is frustration and anger and resentment from people who suffered from that oppression (Wright has me by about 15 or 20 years).

    by Leftcenterlibertarian on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:48:28 PM PDT

    •  And my comments were not in any way

      meant to diminish that.

      Obama challenged us in his speech to confront the racial issues, wounds and scars of this country and to do our best come together and try to heal.

      Then I read this story today in the SF Chronicle

      http://www.sfgate.com/...

      On Sunday, he told a packed church that the criticisms being hurled at Obama for his close ties to Wright are part of a conspiracy aimed at damaging the candidate on the issue of religion because there's not another negative issue out there that has tarnished his reputation.

      "What you are seeing happening to Barack Obama was hatched, crafted and developed a year ago when you were sleeping," Brown told churchgoers. "This kind of nonsense does not just happen."

      con·spir·a·cy (kən-spîr'ə-sē)

      1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.

      2. A group of conspirators.

      3. Law. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

      4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

      There's no conspiracy against Barack Obama except the kind of conspiracy that every politician who runs for office: the opponent and the opposition party.

      There's nothing illegal or sinister taking place.  Its politics.  And I just worry that the rhetoric is doing exactly the opposite of what Obama asked us to do.  Its not cooling and healing.  Its agitating and aggravating to already existing racial tensions.

      by Marc in CA on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:07:57 PM PDT

      •  I don't imagine there is a conspiracy...

        ...but I don't think that those who worry about one are mad, just jaded.

        I do worry about your phrase "Its politics" - because I would hope that this is not a valid excuse for the guilt by association we are being saturated with.

        As you point out, the opposition party is looking for every advantage.  I would hope we could keep the discourse about real issues.  I would hope that we could reject the distractions and call them for what they are.

        Not sure which of us is more cynical, but suspect we would both like a turn toward issues of substance, integrity and policy and away from emotional issues signifying nothing.

        Would hate for people to take what Mr. Wright had to say and decide, "Wow... his preacher is harsh!  In response, I think we should skew the Supreme Court to the right for 50 years, attack Iran and set up permanent bases in Iraq like we have in South Korea."

        That's one way to get God to damn America.

        by Leftcenterlibertarian on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:03:28 PM PDT

        •  Oh I agree

          and in a perfect world we wouldn't have to deal with insignificant, emotional distractions like we are right now.  But that's what I meant when I said "its politics".  Personal attacks, emotional distractions, etc. will always be a part of politics.  I can only hope that we'll mature as a nation and make these distractions less significant in our voting.

          Personal attacks aren't a conspiracy.  And I'm worried about how its being framed by the pastor in the story and other pastors in black churches around the country.  Such as... "there is a conspiracy in white America to smear Obama by using his religion since they can't come out and just admit that they're smearing him cause he's a black man."

          If that's the narrative being started by pastors, then they're not helping to heal the racial divides.  Instead they are making them even worse.  It becomes an us versus them.  And if, God forbid, Obama loses it'll tear this country apart in ways we haven't seen in decades and it'll set us back in healing those divides by a generation or worse.

          by Marc in CA on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:56:24 PM PDT

•  Hagee says God will Damn America

  because it doesn't stone gays, Rev. Wright says God will Damn America for bombing civilian women and children.

  Evidently Rev Wright is offensive.

  by tiponeill on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:09:31 PM PDT

  •  God Damned America when Dubya became Prez n/t

    by 3waygeek on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:18:51 PM PDT

    •  Damned us you mean .

      Some aren't so damned , but SOME believe they will answer in a higher court some day .

      by ArtfromMI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:26:52 PM PDT

  •  Evidently Rev Wright is offensive

    Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. said the same people who praised him for preaching non-violence in America condemned him for speaking out against the Viet Nam War. He said they liked him for calling for non-violence against "Sheriff John Brown", but hated him for calling for the same non-violence towards Asian women and children.

    by William Domingo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:20:57 PM PDT

    •  If They Read or Saw ...

      the whole speech and took it in context they wouldn't have the same argument . Except they just want an argument and they are satisfied with the 30 second bytes the networks like to play every fifteen minutes .Most of them really don't want a debate they just want to use the stuff because it's good for someone else but Obama .

      by ArtfromMI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:30:57 PM PDT

  •  True . And If The Context ....

    doesn't justify it for some , think about how people have shoved  " God Bless America " down your throat . I am a religious person who attends church and I am repulsed by the casual way this term / slogan is used just to show your support for some freaking war some freaking greedy bloodsuckers have gotten this country into .
    " God Bless America " - Two For $ 2.00 .  " God Bless America " - All Items Must Go .   " God Bless America" - Now Hiring !
    I know I'm not the only one repulsed by this casual brand of pseudo patriotism .
    That's where Pastor Wright blew off . On that one right there . If anyone can't see that then they need some soul searching .

    by ArtfromMI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:49:12 PM PDT

  •  they both are with that language n/t

    by Lisactal on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:42:04 PM PDT

•  Less than 0.0000000001 percent of the people

  are going to take more than 2 seconds to parse "God damn America." It ain't never gonna play in Peoria, no matter how you dress it up. (And I don't disagree with you. Just sayin'.) Like Obama said: It was bad, now let's move on.

  by RudiB on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:13:16 PM PDT

  •  A dialogue about "God Damn America" is in order

    If you listen to Noam Chomsky, he often talks to the same themes that Rev Wright is referring to.  Look at how Chomsky explains our typical reaction to such talk

    For their counterparts in the West, those who criticize the policies of the US government are "anti-American" and "hate America"; those are the standard terms used by intellectual opinion, including left-liberal segments, so deeply committed to their totalitarian instincts that they cannot even recognize them, let alone understand their disgraceful history, tracing to the origins of recorded history in interesting ways. For the totalitarian, "patriotism" means support for the state and its policies, perhaps with twitters of protest on grounds that they might fail or cost us too much. For those whose instincts are democratic rather than totalitarian, "patriotism" means commitment to the welfare and improvement of the society, its people, its culture.

    With regard to the US, I think we find a mix. Every effort is made by power and doctrinal systems to stir up the more dangerous and destructive forms of "patriotism"; every effort is made by people committed to peace and justice to organize and encourage the beneficial kinds. It's a constant struggle. When people are frightened, the more dangerous kinds tend to emerge, and people huddle under the wings of power. Whatever the reasons may be, by comparative standards the US has been a very frightened country for a long time, on many dimensions. Quite commonly in history, such fears have been fanned by unscrupulous leaders, seeking to implement their own agendas. These are commonly harmful to the general population, which has to be disciplined in some manner: the classic device is to stimulate fear of awesome enemies concocted for the purpose, usually with some shreds of realism, required even for the most vulgar forms of propaganda.

    by Hot2na on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:30:13 PM PDT

    •  Sorry I forgot the link

      Here it is!!

      My point is that Wright hits on themes that Chomsky has been hitting on for decades.  But Chomsky is considered a fringe left lunatic by the righ. Now what better way for these themes to come to discussion than through discussions such as the meaning of "God Damn America"

      by Hot2na on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:40:33 PM PDT

•  You forgot "God damn the press"...

  ...as they sit by smugly, bestowing their bon mots on the Villagers' Approved Candidates.

  God damn the reporters as they wipe the barbecue sauce from their chins. Oh, wait. That's not the color of barbecue sauce

  God damn the editors as they snorkle through the cocktail weenies set out on the buffet by the "right people".

  God damn the publishers, as they hire "commentators" who are willing to create and maintain partisan lies as part and parcel of their analysis.

  by labradog on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:15:07 PM PDT

•  In prophetic parlance

  The government is the country. And God is portrayed as either "blessing" or "condemning" a country based on its righteousness and justice.

  So Wright is perfectly in harmony with Old Testament / Tanakh prophetic imagery.  God does (and in OT history did) "damn" countries to exile or weakness or servitude.

  That is the point.  The U.S., in its failure to stand up for the weak, the poor, the marginalized, the "outsider" (read ethnic or racial "others" from the standpoint of those in power), is bringing judgment on itself.

  The only question I had (and I could not tell): was "God damn America" an imperative/command? or was it a statement of what Wright saw as fact, as happening.  Was it what Wright wanted to happen, or a statement of what he saw actually happening?  Not easy to say, especially given the sermonic nature.

  by John2Luke on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:18:53 PM PDT

•  What Is Really Ironically Absurd Is ....

  most of the people ranting and raving are people who are secularists and atheists . They make the biggest fuss . And when Bush was running on " Family Values " most of the people touting his talking points ( my personal or casual acquaintances ) were far from holy .

  by ArtfromMI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:25:07 PM PDT

•  I am so sick

  Of all of the Stupid Democrats who don't have enough sense to know that no preacher gets up at church every sunday and says, G_D Damn America.  How could you not wonder about the context?  Wouldn't you wonder why he still had church members if he did that every sunday?
  I thought Repuklicans were the ones who blindly believed everything they were told, not us.
  Apparently I was wrong!

  by Snickers77 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:31:28 PM PDT

  •  The Media Plays On Ignorance ....

    and there's plenty of that out there . Most people here are referring to the venom aimed at them . The sheeple .

    by ArtfromMI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:35:08 PM PDT

•  God damn American Credit Cards,too

  Thank you for the objective view of the how lawless and corrupt this country has become under the Bush License to Steal.
  How about this: my Chase Mastercard just decided to increase my minimum payment by over $100.00 because the federal government told them too do it! What god damn federal government?

  by propitious2 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:39:36 PM PDT

•  It's About The Imaginary Creature In The Sky...

  being an insufferable prick and condemning huge numbers of souls. When the religious start arguing about what the imaginary creature is going to do, grab an empty beer bottle and hide for cover under a table. It will get nuts.

  by HL Mungo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:40:11 PM PDT

  •  All Of Their Arguments Are Built On Fear .

    by ArtfromMI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:52:48 PM PDT

•  Does anyone think

  that if Rev Wright isn't Obama's Pastor then the media will give him a damn to whatever he say? There are too many statements to put in prints that would make Rev Wright's words sound "polite", but why do you think this is the only one matters for the media?

  The answer is that because the media need something to editorialize and the harsher, the more controversial is the better. They don't need healthy discussions. They need a provocative and distorted statement to make them "on". You may try your heads off to explain, contextualize, interpret what Rev Wright has been saying. Alas, it doesn't count. What count is how much commercials that they would generate, how many pundits would work their ass off to spin the statement, and how the rating look like.

  It would certainly help the publics if the issue of racism dicussed openly and in a non-sensational way. It certainly would be a healthy effort to have  sensible conversations about race in American politics. Afer all, it remains the fact that race matters in everyday life among American people. However, the media frenzy on Rev Wright's words and the political brouhaha following it, couldn't have contribute for better understanding of race politics. It only moves the campaign away from its prominent goal: how to change America into a more respectable nation in the world.

  The controversy around Rev statement has, admittedly, been hurting the Obama campaign. Yet in fairness it must be said that the response from Obama is admirable: he's not been trapped by the media frenzy and, instead, come up with a Speech that could become one of the starting points to address and discuss race and politics openly, critically, and in the spirit of reconciliation.

  "The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings but shorter tempers, wider Freeways, but narrower viewpoints", (George Carlin)

  God Bless Obama!!

  by jakartaman on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:29:49 PM PDT

  •  I agree completely

    Discuss the underlying issue.  Obama did that admirably.

    As his speech pointed out, that is difficult to do in a 30 second sound bite.  As John Stewart observed, a politician spoke to us like adults.

    by Leftcenterlibertarian on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:56:56 PM PDT

•  God damn America, Thomas Jefferson

  "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest."

  Jefferson believed America had a moral debt to slaves and that God would collect someday.

  by Sam Wise Gingy on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:45:26 PM PDT

•  I haven't said specifically God damn America, but

  I have said God will damn America on Judgement Day many times, in my fury and anguish over Iraq, torture, our Latin American policy in the 80s, the native killing, the black enslaving, the general greed and moneygrubbing that keeps working people down and desperate to hang on...

  Lord, I gotta stop here or I will go on all night.

  Anyway, I am a white woman in WV and I was not offended once I heard the whole speech and knew what Rev. Wright was on about.

  by zett on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:57:30 PM PDT