Daily Kos

Economics -- and Life -- In a Post Fact World

Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:25:33 AM PDT

Over the weekend, Barry Ritholtz over at the Big Picture blog had one of the most thought provoking posts I have read.  It's titled "Investing in a Post-Fact Society (a/k/a, Were the Good Times a Mirage?)".  It is a post I will be chewing over for quite some time.  I asked him if I could use it to riff off of and he said yes (Being a good lawyer, I still have the email!).  Below is part of the post and then some of my own thoughts.

From the Big Picture Blog:

One of the concerns we have expressed here over the years is that there was much more -- and less -- to the post 2001 recession recovery than met the eye.

Several years ago, this was a controversial position. We first suspected we were on to something, however, when the many critics of this view found it much easier to use epithets  (negative, naysayer, perma-bear) than to do the credible critiques of our positions, or any kind of critical  analysis.  It reminded me of an old lawyer's joke: "When the facts go against you, stress the law; when the law is against you, emphasis the facts; when your case has both the law and the facts against it, call the other lawyer an asshole."

As of March 22, we are still in the early stages of any sort of widespread understanding about this post-recession recovery cycle. Many people are just starting to realize how much fertilizer has been spread around.

Many of the stated economic gains have been a false ghost. Whether it was overstated job creation (NFP), understated inflation (CPI) or "inflated" growth (GDP), a shocking amount of the debate about the economic expansion has been primarily spin.

That's what attracted me to this book by Farhad Manjoo: Learning to Live in a Post-Fact Society. That such a book is even necessary boggles the mind. Consider the myriads of benefits and standards of living  improvements we have seen from the reality-based community -- and by that, I mean Scientists (Physicists, Biologists, Medical Doctors) and Engineers (Technology, materials and mechanical). Why so many people would turn their backs on this belief system leads me to Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Philosophically, I want to explore -- beyond the legitimate gains mentioned above -- a nagging question about the spin and artifice. Why have we as a nation been increasingly reluctant to confront objective reality? What is it about the present social mood, political leadership, and economic environment that has so totally led us to a world of denial? Up is down, black is white, good is bad -- its all very Orwellian.

.....

I have long railed against superficial headline data that belied the weakness underneath. There were a parade of syncophants and cheerleaders who, despite knowing better, continued to cheerlead punk data. These pundits, politicos and pinheads are now confronting the ugly reality they can no longer ignore. Consider the progression the motley crew of fools and liars went through: First they denied what was happening, then we got the whole contained thingie, then they blamed da Bears. Now, they have unwittingly embraced Marx, and have successfully pled for the central planners to rescue them from their own stupidity.

~~~

Here's my question: Are we stuck with these fantasists? Has Truthiness replaced Truth? Are we going to be saddled forever with these  damaging, hallucinatory hacks?

This is something I have experienced as well.  There are three sets of data have led me to continually question the strength of the latest economic expansion.

First, there is debt.  Although there was continued talk of the budget deficit narrowing, the US government continued to issue record amounts of debt.  Currently, total debt outstanding is $9,392,204,908,953.75.  Here is a table of total debt outstanding, at the end of the federal government's fiscal year.

09/30/2007   9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86

First, I must give a huge hat tip to Calculated Risk who originally pointed this fact out.

Secondly, something about the story that "the deficit is decreasing" and record amounts of debt didn't add up.  Simply put, how could a country that is borrowing this amount of money actually be balancing the budget?  The real answer is the budget is nowhere near balanced and hasn't been for some time.  

Secondly, there is job growth.  Simply put, the total amount of jobs created in this expansion is the lowest of any expansion since the end of WWII.  Yet, we kept being told this economy was the "greatest story never told."

Finally -- and in correlation to the jobs issue -- wages have been stagnant for this expansion.  Here is a graph of real (inflation-adjusted) income from the the Census Bureau:

If things are so good, why is real median income stagnant?  

All of the above points -- debt, jobs and income -- are all readily and publicly available verifiable data points.  Whenever I have brought them up in analysis no one has ever told me I have my facts wrong.  Yet there are people who completely ignore these facts and continually argue for policies that would make these facts worse.  What in the hell is going on here?

I have a pet theory which is pure conjecture.

Since 1980 the US has implemented a very conservative to centrist economic program.  Under Reagan, Bush I and Bush II we had a "conservative" agenda.  By conservative I am referring to "supply deny-side" economics along with massive financial deregulation.  Under Clinton we have a centrist economic program (Clinton was center left and Gingrich was center right making the program pretty centrist).  In other words, conservative economic policies have been implemented in one way or another for a continual period of time.  Yet the latest expansion -- and the last 9 months in particular -- have highlighted the fact that conservative economic policies are not the panacea they were advertised as.  In fact, they create some pretty serious problems (so to extremely liberal policies, but those policies create different problems).  

The Right Wing Noise Machine is well aware of these facts.  They can read numbers just like us.  Larry Kudlow (and other Republican economists) knows where the St. Louis Federal Reserve's website is.  But that doesn't matter.  They can't believe that their wonderful polices actually created the current problems.  So they engage in spin rather than analysis.

Compounding this problem is the Republican dominance of the AM radio dial.  I live in Houston Texas and all be have on AM radio is Republican talk radio all day long.  All day long.  Once those folks get on theme, they all repeat it ad infinitum until it becomes fact.  I swear to God, if Rush Limbaugh said "the sky is purple today" within four days there would be a discussion on all the Republican talk radio shows about how the Democrats caused the sky to turn purple.

The point I'm getting to is the right wing noise machine has a lock on certain types of "information" distribution.  And they use it to maximum advantage.  They have dumbed down the conversation in multiple ways and done incredible harm to this country's political dialog.  

And I have no idea how to stop it.

Tags: economy, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 406 comments

  •  2008 will be a revolutionary election. (32+ / 0-)

    The leadreship elected MUST attend to the needs of The People at the expense of The Corporations.

    I'm all for Capitalism, but Supercapitalism must end.

    Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

    by Jimdotz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:43:39 AM PDT

    •  Elections aren't revolutionary. (15+ / 0-)

      Capitalism comes in one flavor. There is no such thing as supercapitalism. Even my spell checker rejects the word.

      Capitalism is an economic superstructure that depends of the productive infrastructure to generate a return on investment, thus increasing the amount of capital to be invested. Period. No super. Just plain old vanilla capitalism.

      Don't count on your hero to do anything at the expense of the corporations. They are what put him where he is today.

      •  Supercorporations can be eliminated in one step: (36+ / 0-)

        An SEC regulation that would limit the share price of a publicly-traded corporation from rising above the level that it's market capitalizaion would exceed some threshold amount, say $1B or $10B.

        As the stock price approaches this limit, the company's board would break it up into pieces, each of which would have it's own independent, publicly-traded stock, and when taken as a basket, could still increase in value beyond the threshold market cap limit.

        It would be like the 1984 AT&T breakup, but without the judge deviding how it should be done. Remember that the Telecom Revolution came about because of the AT&T breakup, and led to more competition, more jobs in telecom, more services available to consumers with lower prices.

        In short, by breaking up Supercorporations, Capitalism wins, employmees win, and consumers win.

        All from a simple SEC regulation. It's simple, and everybody wins.

        Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

        by Jimdotz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:10:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Interesting idea (8+ / 0-)

          Corporate power needs to be reigned in. Corporate management also needs to be made responsible to shareholders and that will require federal intervention. The best way may be to require a certain level of managerial responsibility to owners for all publicly traded corporations. Delaware does not meet that standard today, so they will either have to reform their laws or see every publicly traded company leave the state for incorporation purposes.

        •  Interesting idea. (19+ / 0-)

          I've always thought that when one company gets so large that they are essentially a monopoly., they should either be broken up, as was done with Standard Oil and AT&T, or they should face the threat of being nationalized so that the monopoly is forced to work for the citizenry under government control rather than against it by using their monopoly to gouge customers.  

          I would suggest that cable companies who are basically monopolies in certain areas fit the latter category already.  In my city, Time Warner faces no competition and they can and do charge essentially whatever they want.  It doesn't cost $80 per month to provide TV service as Time Warner charges.  The reason the bill is so high is because Time Warner carries billions of dollars in debt which we the customers get to pay off.  They expanded so rapidly that they took on huge amounts of debt, but because their monopoly status guarantees them a high cash flow, banks continue to lend them money to buy even more companies since the banks know that cable customers will be forced to foot the bill for this overaggressive expansion.

          I would like to see a judge decide how companies get divided however, because trusting these corporations to do it on their own only invites more of the 'clever' accounting tricks we've already seen with Enron and the like.  Also, many of the companies formed from the breakups of Standard Oil and At&T have simply remerged in a different form.  

          Anybody ever wonder how Exxon-Mobil was allowed to exist?  These were two companies formed by the forced breakup of Standard Oil in the first place.

          "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

          by cometman on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:52:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Standard and AT&T are the worst models (6+ / 0-)

            Those companies were allowed to keep their regional monopolies and expected to eventually compete with each other. That did happen with Standard, though the companies exploited their local strengths to try to compete elsewhere, but it never happened with the Baby Bells.

            •  Are you kidding? I can get local phone service (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              dennisl

              from a number of companies now, not to mention Internet local phone.

              Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

              by Jimdotz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:16:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Now (6+ / 0-)

                But what you never could get it Ameritech service in a Bell Atlantic area or Pacific in USWest. They refused to compete against each other.

              •  Crumbs (11+ / 0-)

                After many years, the "Baby Bells" finally have found long distance and cellular so profitable that they're willing to compete with each other in those markets, leaving the local markets to newcomers. So a couple decades or so after the AT&T breakup, there is indeed competition for local service, long distance and mobile. But the "Baby Bells" that compete are now consolidated into a duopoly of Verizon and AT&T for consumers, though there are about a half-dozen long distance wholesalers competing.

                Internet local/LD phone is very new, and a result of cablecos having their own TV monopolies from which to launch competition against Verizon and AT&T. It's still very small.

                You want to see how competition really works in telcos, look at the DSL industry. Which did see several competing corps finally use the legal requirements for the incumbent telcos to allow access by competitors to the incumbent network equipment. Once the newcomers actually defined a market by educating it and delivering value consumers could understand, the incumbent telcos used all kinds of anticompetitive advantages (like blowing off hookup schedules only to competitors, making their incumbent service look better to consumers), until they drove the newcomers out of business.

                The success of the AT&T breakup in fostering competition actually shows just how powerful is even a little breakup that opens a crack for competition (and therefore innovation). It therefore shows how powerful is the monopoly in preventing competition/innovation. If the DoJ had broken up AT&T into several national corps which had to compete geographically, we would have had much faster competition and innovation. FWIW, we'd also have much less problems with telcos abusing their access to our communications, like warrantless FISA violations etc.

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:32:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I have two thoughts on this... (9+ / 0-)

          1. Exactly, the mechanism that creates 'efficiency' in markets is competition. As entities compete prices go down to their lowest sustainable levels (in theory the lowest price possible given overhead + some minimum level of profit). However precisely because it introduces efficiency by reducing profits and forcing corporations to do more with less as well as stay ahead or at least on par with any new products by competitors competition is loathed by companies, especially the larger more established ones. As with any constructed system, the incentive becomes finding ever more creative ways not to compete. Buyouts, mergers, collusion of incredible variety is virtually endemic in todays markets in my experience. Strategies for eliminating competition is the ultimate (meaning last, not greatest) method in which companies compete. As 'market penetration' grows and the pressure to compete lessens, costs go down, profits go up, and shareholders smile.
          1. In a world were Bankers (read corporations) control the money supplies of nearly every sovereign nation, how can you pick any sort of arbitrary market capitalization cap? Choose one currency and they'll find their way to do most of their business in another. There is nothing corporations do better than find ways to skirt around the rules. They truly are engines for the elimination of competition. I think this sort of idea is on the right track, but as with any group you want to 'regulate' you need regulators who are every bit as smart as the people working against the regulations, or it will never amount to (a hill of beans?) much.
          •  The answer to both questions is that... (8+ / 0-)

            all competitors will have to play by the same rules, even if it is an arbitrarily chosen rule.

            The real winners will be smaller companies who no longer get crushed by the Walmarts of the world. Sorry, but I'd rather live in that world that the one we have now.

            Large-cale buyouts and mergers will not be as lucrative as before because of the market cap limit. So what? Gordon Gekko-types will make less money? Boo Hoo.

            Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

            by Jimdotz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:25:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe instead of.... (11+ / 0-)

            an arbitrary market cap, they should not be allowed to control more than a certain percentage of the market they compete in.

            This poses problems as well.  Once upon a time, corporations were not allowed to own other corporations, but now they are.  So how does one decide what market a company like GE competes in?  Are they a media company?  An electric company?  A defense contractor?

            "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

            by cometman on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:27:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, that was exactly my point. (5+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              opinionated, bluebrain, kurt, Jimdotz, ghett

              That you need to be very careful on the rules you set and make sure they are amendable in the future because as soon as the rules are made, very smart people will be forced into working overtime to find ways around them. The incentive to avoid competition and the rewards, are just too great.

              Only when you can make the penalties high enough, the laws smart enough and the enforcement quick enough, that you can cause the cost of trying to avoid competition to be prohibitively risky, do you win and get the genuinely fair and competitive market so many dream of.

            •  Hard to define "a certain percentage"... (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              3goldens, kurt, Serpents Sorrow, ghett

              which is why I like the market cap limit idea. There's no guessing:

              (Market Cap) = (# of Shares) x (Share Price) < $1B

              No ambiguity at all.

              Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

              by Jimdotz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:39:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  True, but depending on what a company does.... (5+ / 0-)

                it could be possible to have a monopoly in a certian industry without reaching the market cap limit.

                A company that sells airplanes at several hundred million a pop is going to reach the market cap limit a lot faster than a company that sells chewing gum, but the chewing gum company may have a monopoly regardless.  

                Those probably aren't the best examples to use, but I'm just trying to say that different industries have varying amounts of overhead needed to produce and distribute their products.  The machinery a company like Boeing needs to produce an airplane would probably justify a market cap of a billion dollars before they even produce one plane, whereas a small factory can produce a hell of a lot of chewing gum but their real assets would be a fraction of a company like Boeing's.

                Obviously I don't have all the answers either, but this is a good discussion.  Perhaps the answer to these problems could be found in bottom up discussions like the one we're currently having rather than from top down decisions like the bad ones Greenspan and now Bernanke continue to make.

                "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

                by cometman on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:00:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  But how do you define profit (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Jimdotz, Serpents Sorrow

            What if you were to run a company that makes just enough cash to stay afloat, and the 'profit' is in the form of a stronger consumer base in a carbon neutral environment that reused all waste products?

            Obviously that wouldn't work for most 'shareholders', but surely the government would see a profit in not having to subsidize as much healthcare as fewer health problems would exist given less pollution.

            Why can't we simply admit that socialism would be able to address sustainability and regulatory issues in was that capitalism simply can't?

            Got a problem with my posts? Email me, and let's resolve it.

            by drbloodaxe on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:35:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am not anti-capitalism... (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              CharlieHipHop, Serpents Sorrow

              I'm just anti-SUPERcapitalism.

              And I'm all for Socialized Civilized Medicine, too.

              Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

              by Jimdotz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:41:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  There Are Definitions (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              kurt, Jimdotz

              Profit is defined by public accounting rules. Shareholders are interested in those profits being maximized, while actual income/expense realities work to minimize those profits. So the profitability of a coropration is fairly clear when it's run according to proper rules.

              The rules can be rigged, but that argument means nothing can ever be made right and proper, if you ignore efforts to keep the rules correct. And at the size of "supercorps", you need serious conspiracies to either evade the rules or pervert them. That's why government oversight of supercorps like Enron, WorldCom, Global Crossing, Tyco, etc all relied on corruption. Which corruption is enabled by corporate profits (usually boosted by hidden debt) sizeable enough to compete with the governments overseeing them (by lobbying, evading and bribing them).

              We already have socialism: for corporations. We also have socialism for individuals, to keep them from complaining about the larger (and much less necessary) socialism for corporations. Less socialism would be better. Especially the kind that centrally plans how people react to and exploit market conditions.

              Government has a basic role in protecting people's rights, including commercial rights (like affordable food and selling labor in the market). It even has a role in operating "natural monopolies", like infrastructure that would only waste redundant facilities (like the water supply or national railroads). In fact, we're sophisticated to know that since a "monopoly" doesn't have to own 100% of a market to control and abuse it, likewise a government operating in a market can stimulate competition that "polyopolies" (like cartels or just duopolies) tacitly avoid.

              But more socialism means more monopolies, in government hands. Since those hands also control military, police and justice monopolies, including commercial monopolies in a socialist mix paves the roads for tyrannies to rush right over.

              I'd rather have a relatively inefficient mix of socialism and capitalism than an efficient road to tyranny, whether we call it "communism", "fascism" or anything else.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:48:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  A thought (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Jimdotz, Serpents Sorrow

                (and I hope I just clicked on the right reply to)

                If state run enterprises are allowed to be privately owned, but only by individual citizens, and with a maximum %age owned by any given individual, could we not gain the benefits of both systems?  Or if ownership was restricted to some mix of those and pension funds?

                I think my idea is more to simply get single individuals from owning massive chunks of given entities such that they unduly influence corporate direction and responsibility.

                Got a problem with my posts? Email me, and let's resolve it.

                by drbloodaxe on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:59:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Worst of Both Worlds (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Jimdotz, Serpents Sorrow

                  With that model, you've created government monopolies no longer tempered by even public ownership. Instead, that operator (with the deepest pockets in the country, the general budget, and a legislature that can compel any favorable policy) is now operated for the primary benefit of some private individuals (any corporation's primary benefit is to its shareholders, as required by law). Shareholders don't generally compete for anything but shares of ownership in their corporation. If you remove that competition, too, with maximum shareholder %s, then there's no competition whatsoever. There's no way to prohibit collusion of those shareholders into blocs, which would just dominate the operation of the state corporation.

                  Your proposal seems exactly backwards to the public interest.

                  "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                  by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:11:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  We'll see (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Jimdotz, Serpents Sorrow

                    by watching New Zealand.

                    SRE's have been common there, and it looks like a push is on to have Kiwisaver (a plan to push superannuation savings by creating a gov't run stock club as I see it) and similar plans be the primary investors if privatization goes forward under National thanks to a recent ruling change by Labour about strategic assets.  Of course National could just dump the strategic asset idea once they hit power, and allow foreign control of such anyway.

                    They (National) privatized Telecom and the rail system the last time they were in power, and it was a predictable disaster for actual Kiwis, with costs soaring and maintenance being ignored.  I think they also privatized the electric grid, and maintenance there also was ignored for profit such that rolling blackouts are expected this coming winter.

                    Got a problem with my posts? Email me, and let's resolve it.

                    by drbloodaxe on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:41:42 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Russia (3+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Dauphin, Jimdotz, Serpents Sorrow

                      We've already seen how privately owned government corporations can be awfully abused, in Russia. Even when the shares were issued to all citizes (who then sold them to richer buying blocs).

                      NZ != Russia != US. So we'll be able to look at the differences between the implementations and results, as well as their common features.

                      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                      by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:11:31 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  There Is A Way (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Jimdotz, Serpents Sorrow

            I describe how to "normalize" the threshold to allow regulation to successfully compete with reasonably sized corporations in my other post "% of GDP Threshold".

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:35:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Dear Nonparticipant: (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Jimdotz

               Since you were absent, the right to service your customers and your IP have been auctioned off on our front steps.

                          Yours Truly,
                                       Bob Bureaucrat

        •  % of GDP Threshold (6+ / 0-)

          An SEC regulation that would limit the share price of a publicly-traded corporation from rising above the level that it's market capitalizaion would exceed some threshold amount, say $1B or $10B.

          For that rule to be closely derived from the actual nature of the problem, the threshold should be in GDP. We can tell that $10B corporations are too big, but that's because we have an intuitive sense of how big the market is, how big is the government to oversee them, how big are small companies that can innovate, how big are people's personal economies that are in their market. $10B is an arbitrary number that's really in terms of those other (arbitrary, at a given time) numbers.

          The US GDP is about $13T (of about $48T global), though those numbers have been more like $12T/35T in the past, when supercorps were already too big to handle. So the threshold in those terms would be something like at most 0.1% of GDP, or 0.03% of global GDP, whichever is smaller, to generalize a $10B 2008 threshold.

          In fact, there is probably a more close correlation to the state GDP, because corporations are actually creatures operating at the state level (where they're incorporated, and which governments run most of their regulation, including taxes like sales tax). So that 0.1% of US GDP threshold might be something like 2.5% of the average US state GDP.

          And that proportion finally starts to approach the real matchup: the size of the corp operating in a state compared to the size of the state government regulating it. I'm not sure the corp's market cap is really right metric, though that's related by P/E ratio (usually below 5:1, especially at large scales) to the corp's earnings, with which it can defy regulation. So ultimately maybe the threshold number is related to the state government budget, which must be required to be larger than the corp's operating budget available in that state. The NY state budget:GDP was in 2006 about $105B:900B, or about 12%, and is probably on the high side. If the threshold is set to cap earnings at 1% of the state budget, that's close to the 0.1% of state GDP, which makes that argument seem stronger, even if it's maybe too simple. There might even be a good argument for prohibiting supercorps to operate in any state where it overwhelms the state government's budget for regulating it, (corp earnings over 1% of state budget), or remaining chartered without breakup in any state where the state oversight budget for all corporations HQ'ed there is less than 100x as big as the corp.

          I wouldn't be surprised to see that state budgets for overseeing corporations are something like 1% of their total budget on average. And further that corps HQ'ed in them have larger drains on the budget than just those operating there. So the real number might just prohibit any corp from operating in a state which has a smaller budget for overseeing all corporations of its type (in-state or ex-state) than the discretionary budget (earnings) for fighting that oversight.

          In any case, I think you're definitely on to the specific nature of the problem, and an approximate solution. If we look carefully, we probably can find a simple statement like that for just how to keep these supercorps from overwhelming our governments that protect us from them.

          And by "protect us", I mean private individuals and their smaller corporate competition. And since breaking up these large corps has typically seen the combined value of the resulting separate corps exceed the value of the old unified corp, I think there's a very powerful economic argument to make to shareholders that can counter the appeal of the giant corp to its executives. If that argument penetrates, actually redesigning the corporate regime could be a lot easier than it might first appear.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:22:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I can certainly live with the idea that the limit (0+ / 0-)

            should be a percent of GDP in spirit, but to make an effective, simple rule, a specific dollar value needs to be assigned.

            As time passes, and GDP grows (hopefully), the maeket cap limit could easily be adjusted by revising the SEC regulation from, say, $1B to $1.1B.

            Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

            by Jimdotz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:29:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Annual Specifics (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Odysseus, Jimdotz

              The general rule and a specific number aren't mutually exclusive. Every year, when the state passes its budget, the rule could be easily computed into a specific threshold.

              One interesting side effect of this approach is that the largest corps would finally have an incentive for their state budgets overseeing them to grow larger, to allow the supercorps to grow larger along with them. If that oversight were effective in using its larger budget, which would probably mean targeting the largest corporations for oversight to reduce the overhead of overseeing many smaller corporations instead, then the largest corps would be more properly overseen. That could mean that even as they approach the threshold, the supercorps would be operating more cleanly.

              That kind of convergence of consequential results tends to validate a model.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:54:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  This solution would presume (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              DocGonzo, kurt, Jimdotz

              a reliable GDP

              Many of the stated economic gains have been a false ghost. Whether it was overstated job creation (NFP), understated inflation (CPI) or "inflated" growth (GDP), a shocking amount of the debate about the economic expansion has been primarily spin.

              Before any solution based on GDP is implemented, there would need to be some overhaul of what constitutes GDP or at least a mechanism to require that GDP be factually stated.

              "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

              by SueDe on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:53:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, Yes (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Jimdotz

                Of course any solution to any US economic problems absolutely depends on accurate econometrics.

                I'd say that long jailtime for making fraudulent statistics would help. Conspiracy busts that send collaborating political Party personnel to jail, and that can decharter the parties themselves under racketeering laws, would also drain the swamp.

                Someone's got to start somewhere, and any method that makes those economic measures accurate (without just forcing them towards zero) would be worth a lot of pain.

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:21:06 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Not being an economist, most of this is way over (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Robespierrette, 3goldens, Jimdotz

            my head, but I have a question:

            How do we regulate anything when most major corporations that do business in this country are international now.

            Wouldn't regulation in this country just cause them to move even more of their business offshore?

            If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

            by TKH on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:42:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The answer there is to limit ALL corporations... (5+ / 0-)

              that want to do business in the US to the same market cap regulation.

              It will be fair to American companies, and we'll be doing the world a favor, too.

              Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

              by Jimdotz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:46:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree that this is a great idea. Watching (4+ / 0-)

                corporations grow, for some time now I have had one simple question: Growth can not continue forever, where is it going to end? Will there eventually be ONE mega-corporation that runs and owns everything?

                It's not good enough any more to just "do as well as last year" they must continue to expand. Even corporations that show marginal gains are gobbled up by larger corporations because their shareholders want MORE.

                Corporate GREED! Don't you just love capitalism.

                If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

                by TKH on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:59:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Not only fair... (3+ / 0-)

                we would instantly create a huge demand for more skilled and unskilled workers and increase the competitive nature of the marketplace by leaps and bounds lowering prices and fostering new product development everywhere.

                As an example, every time one telecom eats another one, if the employees of the eaten (read bought) telecom are lucky as many as 1/3 of them will be hired into the buying company. My mind boggles at how many more jobs there would be under a GDP or similar size cap.

              •  In a perfect world, limiting corporate profits, (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Jimdotz

                by whatever means, makes absolute sense, but in reality...it ain't gonna happen.

                America is increasingly becoming irrelavent as far as corporate profits. YES...for now, we are the largest consumer nation in the world. We can push our weight around and dictate what corporations that operate within our borders do because there is a large profit to be made, BUT that is rapidly changing.

                We have turned from being the richest nation in the world to being the largest debtor nation in the world. Our clout is rapidly deminishing and being replaced by those of the EU, China, India and others. That's one of the reasons our dollar's in the toliet.

                Pretty soon, instead of dictating terms with corporations, we are going to be dictated too.

                If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

                by TKH on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:46:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Which is why my idea has nothing to do... (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  DocGonzo, TKH

                  with profit. The corporations will do their thing (regulated for safety of all sorts, I hope) but they will do it at a moderate size, or they get broken up.

                  Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

                  by Jimdotz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:58:44 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Jimdotz

                    How will they compete with larger overseas competitors who would still have economies of scale available to them?

                    It has a lot to do with profit.  You can do this with a service industry like a telco but not with manufacturing enterprises.

                    Best Wishes, Demena

                    by Demena on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 11:13:13 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Not Really Limiting Profits (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Jimdotz, TKH

                  The plan you're referring to doesn't limit profits, but rather the market capitalization (the total value of the corporation measured by the cost of all the shares needed to buy it).

                  I think a better control is indeed indexed to corporate profits. Because those profits are the discretionary amount a corporation can use to evade government and inherent market controls.

                  But neither really limits the profits. What they limit are the size of the single entity making the profits. Since the remedy is just to require the shareholders to split the supercorp according to their own preference, so long as it then operates below the threshold (in whichever terms), the resulting entities are able to make those profits. The competition will preserve a better balance between value delivered to their markets and the profits they derive from it. In fact, the combined value of the multiple resulting corporations is typically greater than the value of the old single supercorp. The resulting corps work smarter because of the competition, less wastefully, and are forced to entrepreneurially explore other markets/niches for diversification and expansion.

                  Since the result would be better overall for corporations (most of whose shareholders do face competition from a few shareholders' supercorps) and for increased overall shareholder value (even if in more total corps), the economic self interest is evident. There's more risk, though there's more reward. Which is usually a logjam solved by government leadership, and occasionally often even justifies government risk mitigation (liability assumption, loans, subsidies, etc) to get people past the immediate (but lesser) gratifification they're addicted to. That's what government oversight of markets and industries is for.

                  "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                  by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:30:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  OK Doc...you've obviously thought about (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    DocGonzo

                    this for some time. I like people that think a lot. If you say it will work, who am I to say differently. THEREFORE, I nominate you to the postion of "Secretary of American Economics".

                    Everyone who wants to form a corporation will have to go through your office and those corporations that now exist will have to adhere to your rules and policies, or they will be heavily fined or sold for pennies on the dollar.

                    Unfortunately there is no salary, office, or chauffer driven limo, but I'm sure that, even if you have to work out of the back of your car, with your determination, you can straighten those bastards out.

                    If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

                    by TKH on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:08:31 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I Got a Million of Them (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      TKH

                      Counting that one, a million one. I make 'em up on the spot.