Daily Kos

The big immigration backlash in Connecticut

Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:37:12 AM PDT

New Haven, CT, issued ID cards to undocumented immigrants, generating the predictable attacks on Fox News, talk radio, and other nutso corners.

Calling it a move towards “social justice,” aldermen overwhelmingly approved a plan to issue identification cards for all city residents regardless of immigration status. Click on the play arrow to watch the emphatic applause for the plan, the first of its kind in the nation [...]

In a 25 to 1 vote Monday, aldermen approved acceptance of $250,359 in private funds from the First City Fund Corporation to support the mayor’s plan. The Elm City Resident Card, originally designed to help undocumented immigrants avoid getting robbed or assaulted, will be a combination of identification, debit card, library card, and a way to pay the parking meter, for all city residents young and old. The city plans to roll out the new cards in July.

The city will also start working towards the ID card’s main public safety goal — allowing immigrants to use the ID to open bank accounts and therefore not get robbed while carrying around large amounts of cash — by reaching out to area banks.

“This is a social justice issue,” said Hill Alderman Jorge Perez on the aldermanic floor. Like others, he’s been inundated with emails lashing out against the city, from outsiders who maintain that “millions of people are going to come to America through New Haven because we’re offering an ID.” Perez refuted that claim and thanked the mayor and Kica Matos “for the leadership they have shown and the heat they have taken” in proposing the ID [...]

“It brings tears to my eyes,” said Marieah Viviel, who at this hearing told a harrowing tale of how her El Salvadoran housekeeper, Elena, and her son were robbed in their Fair Haven apartment by people who knew they were undocumented and stored large amounts of cash. Viviel found them lying on the kitchen floor, bound by electric cords, their home plundered.

“This will be not just a decloaker for those who are invisible, but a deterrent to those who do what they did to Elena,” said Viviel after the vote, wiping her tears. “I’m so glad!”

That was June 5, 2007. Two days later, on June 7, immigration authorities "coincidentally" staged raids across New Haven. One city shows compassion, and the federal government steps in to do the bidding of the hateful Minute Men militia and Lou Dobbs.

All of this sound and fury generated a backlash. But not the sort you'd expect hearing the right-wing pundits and that asshole Lou Dobbs tell it. From that new Q-Poll that DemFromCT blogged earlier:

38. What do you think should happen to most illegal immigrants working in the United States - Should they be offered a chance to apply for citizenship, OR Should they be allowed to stay as temporary workers, OR Should they be deported to the country they came from?

            Tot  Rep  Dem  Ind  Men  Wom  Wht  Blk

Citizenship 47%  37%  53%  47%  43%  51%  46%  59%
Temporary   27   26   27   27   29   25   28   12
workers

Deported    22   32   17   22   25   20   23   22
DK/NA        4    5    3    4    4    4    4    8

The vast majority of the public isn't interested in what Lou Dobbs, Fox News, the federal government, and Rahm Emanuel are selling. The issue is a loser for the Right, no matter who much fury they generate. Even among African Americans, who are supposedly "anti-immigrant" because of economic concerns, we find huge support for citizenship while, rightly, less support for "temporary worker" status that would depress wages at the low end of the socio-economic ladder.

Even among Republicans, only 32 percent favor deportation -- a stunning rejection in Connecticut of the politics of hatred and scapegoating.

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Permalink | 136 comments

  •  Astonishing (12+ / 0-)

    that these xenophobes in their alternate universe continue to actually believe this is a winning issue for them.

    "I seek the truth, which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm." --Marcus Aurelius

    by electric meatball on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:40:02 AM PDT

    •  Astonishing, indeed. I'm ashamed to think... (6+ / 0-)

      ...how white Texans would respond.

      Fences, deportation, tazers. The shit Dobbs is peddling sells to a shocking degree down here, I'm sad to say.

      "Oh, TV. Is there anything you can't do?" -- Homer Simpson

      by Melody Townsel on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:41:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  having a place to bank is a big deal (5+ / 0-)

        Without a legitimate place to cash checks and store money, immigrants are subject to unscrupulous pay-day lenders -- and criminals who literally do hold-ups searching immigrant homes for "cash under the pillow".  The homicide rate in connection with cash-based robberies, and the need to get cash out of people's homes is a critical security issue for the City of New Haven.

      •  Astonishing that Lou Dobbs... (4+ / 0-)

        gets such a bully pulpit to spew his crap from every day.

        Lou Dobbs had a lot of promise, in that he appears to be his own man and expresses his own opinions honestly. What a shame that he became so obsessed with his anti-Mexican shite that it completely dominates his existence.

        This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

        by Mr X on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:00:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Danbury responded differently from New Haven (0+ / 0-)

        Mayor Boughton tried to demonize immigrants and iirc asked for federal help for deportation. It didn't get much traction outside of a few scattered communities.

        In New Haven, when people went to apply for Elm City cards they were harassed by weirdos in yellow slicker raincoats, TV cameras, and a screamer of a local radio host who stoked resentment.
        And in Hartford, some state legislators tried to pass an amendment cutting off state aid to a city that has ID cards.
        None of it worked.
        Local New Haven leaders, and the Yale Law Legal Clinic, and state legislators fought back and won.
        So taking the issue head on wasn't impossible, but it wasn't a slam dunk either.
        And it took the whole community.

    •  And didn't KO say last night that (6+ / 0-)

      Lou Dobbs' wife is Hispanic? Which makes their children Hispanic as well?

      All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. -- Thomas Jefferson

      by DWKING on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:41:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He did indeed (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        soms

        but irony is lost on such people.

        "I seek the truth, which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm." --Marcus Aurelius

        by electric meatball on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:41:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What does the nationality of Lou Dobb's wife (0+ / 0-)

        have to do with anything? Oh, I get it. If you are against illegal immigration, then you surely must be anti-hispanic. How ridiculous.

        •  Not ridiculous when you (6+ / 0-)

          realize that not all people bother to differentiate on legal or illegal. When you target any group of people (and Hispanics are the chief target of this argument) you expose all Hispanics to "justifiable" bigotry. Do you have any idea how many people out there believe ALL Hispanics are the problem? Just like all Japanese were traitors during WWII?

          And why on earth would a husband and father want to rain that down on his kids? Is it any different than Cheney running on an anti-gay platform with a lesbian daughter at home?

          All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. -- Thomas Jefferson

          by DWKING on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:52:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes it is different. (0+ / 0-)

            Cheney is running an anti -gay platform and his daughter is gay.

            Dobbs is running an illegal immigrant agenda and his wife is legal.

            People here lose me when they play the race card on this issue.

            •  Then you don't understand real world implications (5+ / 0-)

              when you treat the anti-illegal immigration as only a Hispanic issue, you get simple minded folks trashing any hispanics they see (because they don't know if they are legal or not, they assume they are not).

              I live in MN, and I still understand this mentality and have seen it with my own eyes (both here, in Texas, and on the internets)

            •  Do you have any respect for David Niewert's (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              DWKING, mariachi mama
              opinion, or is he also playing "the race card" when he documents Lou Dobbs' outright, inflammatory lying about illegal immigration as well as his history of promoting groups like the Minutemen as modern American patriots?

              You mention the Russian immigrants in New York.  Don't think I've ever heard Lou complain about the Russians, have you?  Or the illegal Irish, or Poles, or Serbs....

              •  No, you haven't, but perhaps it's (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                brentmack

                because you haven't heard from those groups demanding citizenship or government services. Also the number involved is far greater.

                I look at it as racism when the Hispanic community demands that all people that come across the southern border should be legal, but make no such declarations about Africans, Asians, Russians etc. Is anyone suggesting that we allow everyone, that wants to come to U.S., in.

                I think that a fairer way is to secure the border and set up a workable program that allows a certain amount of people in from various countries, not 20-40 mm from the southern border..

                •  You just said that in New York the illegal (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  bellatrys, esquimaux
                  Russian problem is bigger than the illegal Hispanic problem.  But that's still not big enough to get attention from Lou Dobbs or the politicians demagoguing the issue?

                  As for how you never hear of other groups of illegal immigrants demanding rights, here's an easy one: Irish Immigrants Visit Congress to Ask for Rights.  That was an easy link for me to find because, yeah, you do actually hear about other groups protesting, I've heard of more than one Irish demonstration, it's just that nobody seems to get outraged about them.

                  •  The numbers aren't there to warrant the same (0+ / 0-)

                    outrage.

                    I agree that for some this is a racial issue, but not for the majority. I couldn't care less where anyone's country of origin is.

                    •  The Russians cause more trouble, more crime, (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      mariachi mama
                      but there are more Hispanics, so the outrage against the Hispanics instead of the Russians is warranted?

                      I strongly recommend that you read this Orcinus post on the fundamental misunderstandings people have about illegal immigration and it's affect on our society -- Immigration: Against the right.  For example:

                      5. Illegal immigrants increase the crime rate.

                      There have been several studies that have debunked this claim from different angles. An Immigration Policy Center fact-check has most of the details:

                         Although the undocumented immigrant population doubled to about 12 million from 1994 to 2005, the violent crime rate in the United States declined by 34.2% and the property crime rate fell by 26.4%.2 This decline in crime rates was not just national, it also occurred in border cities and other cities with large immigrant populations--such as San Diego, El Paso, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and Miami.

                      Moreover, according to an the AILF study titled "The Paradox of Assimilation And The Myth of Immigrant Criminality", immigrants are five times less likely than native-born to be in prison, and immigrants from nations that account for most of the undocumented have lower incarceration rates.

                      If you want to argue with me after reading that post, I'm game.  What's in this particular Neiwert post is essentially the information that forms the foundation for my arguments.

                      •  Martin, did I argue about illegals committing (0+ / 0-)

                        illegal crimes? The crime committed is the fact that they are here illegally.

                        There should be outrage at any illegal being here.

                        If there were as many illegal Russians here as Hispanics there would be the same outrage, except, perhaps, for the few that are just biased against Hispanics.

                        •  You said crime was through the roof in New York. (0+ / 0-)

                          I assume you meant because of the Russian illegal immigrants.

                          Why should there be outrage over any illegal being here?  It's a broken law, yes, but why should everybody be outraged?  Do you believe outrage is the appropriate response to any instance of lawbreaking or is there some specific aspect of illegal immigration that make it outrage worthy?

                          •  Crime is through the roof and I did mean because (0+ / 0-)

                            of some of the Russian immigrants. I'm outraged at the draining of social and medical services.

                            Now, here is where you pull out all of the erred reports showing the economic windfall that we receive from illegals, right? Spare me.

                            I'll just point to the hospital closing across California or the jammed emergency rooms in NYC, where incidently the taxpayers are footing the bill.

                            •  "erred reports"? (0+ / 0-)

                              All the data gathered in studies that conflict with what you've gleaned from the media are wrong?  It's irrelevant to the discussion that the net economic benefit of illegal immigration is vital to our overall economy?  In Texas alone the difference between what illegal immigrants contribute and the services they require is $424.7 million -- and that linked report is from the Texas Comptroller, by the way, not some liberal interest group.  If the taxpayers (which include a lot of illegal immigrants, actually) are really footing the bill, seems like the immigrants are still the ones getting shortchanged.

                              But there's really no point to continuing the discussion if you want to be spared having studies and reports that you disagree with cited.  It does make it hard to respect your outrage, though.

                              •  Martin, I don't have the time to thoroughly (0+ / 0-)

                                scour the report, but one thing I noticed right off the bat is that the study included, in the costs of not having illegals, an increase in wages. So wages are being depressed because of the illegals. I'm sure that our citizens, at the lower end of the economic ladder, are thrilled to hear this. How about being more concerned with the people here legally?

                                •  Wages would rise by 0.6 percent. (0+ / 0-)

                                  Not exactly massive and a benefit offset by the job losses from the resulting decrease in the overall size of Texas' economy.  Besides, who do you think is going to suffer first when state services are cut as a result of the hit in revenue, the absence of that previous $424.7 million net contribution by the illegal immigrants?
                                  The remaining broad economic measures all point to an initial impact of undocumented immigrants of about 2.5 percent in terms of the value of production and wages in the Texas economy. Eliminating 1.4 million immigrants would have resulted in a 2.3 percent decline in employment, a 2.6 percent decline in personal income and a 2.8 percent decline in disposable personal income in 2005. This change also would generate a 2.1 percent decline in the gross state product (GSP), the broadest measure of the value of all goods and services produced in Texas.

                                  While none of these changes are surprising, the one finding that may appear unusual is the persistence of the decline. If no in-migration were possible other than from natives or authorized immigrants, employment would remain 2 percent below the baseline forecast 20 years later. The impact lessens over time, but remains sizable throughout the 20-year forecast period.

                                  Concern for illegal immigrants is as about as far from incompatible with concern for the workers already here as it is possible to be.

                                   

                              •  Read the report (0+ / 0-)

                                In Texas alone the difference between what illegal immigrants contribute and the services they require is $424.7 million

                                From Carole Keeton Strayhorn, the Comptroller of Texas, and not a report from Susam Combs. You will find out that your figures are wrong. Too many people focus on the figures for the state from this report, while the report (clearly in the summary) states that counties and local governments are picking up costs which are not calculated in the report.

                                When those county and local government costs are factored in the number is negative, not a positive number as you claim.

                                Beyond this, the Texas report uses the exact same data from the PEW Hispanic Center that FAIR and CIS use to generate reports which make polar opposite claims to those from LULAC, PEW, etc., that is to say the 2000 census data.

                                Also beyond this, the Texas report does not include the children of illegal immigrants in the report at all.

                                If you feel strongly about it I will try and find a copy of the original report from Carole Keeton Strayhorn, the summary of the report clearly outlines the numbers.

                                Although I cannot vouch for the site this summary is coming from, their synopsis of the Strayhorn report is essentially correct.

                                The average wage for an illegal immigrant is $29,500 per year. With this is mind, how could it be that on average an illegal immigrant pays more in taxes than they receive in services from federal and local governments?

                                This just in:

                                Here is the original report.

                                From the summary:

                                The absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.58 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services they received. However, local governments bore the burden of $1.44 billion in uncompensated health care costs and local law enforcement costs not paid for by the state.

                                1.58 - 1.16 - 1.44 is not a positive number.

                                If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                                by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 02:17:15 PM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  Uh, yeah, I wouldn't try vouching for that site. (0+ / 0-)

                                  I just ran across their policy report debunking global warming.

                                  But if you come up with a link to the original report I'll read it.  Susan Combs is the Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts though, so, as far as I can tell, that report may be a summary, but it's still State of Texas work product.

                                  •  As I related in my post (0+ / 0-)

                                    The original Carole Keeton Strayhorn report is here.

                                    If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                                    by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 02:46:08 PM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                                    •  I'm reading. (0+ / 0-)

                                      I'd like to know where they got their local numbers which they say are estimates -- I'm not having any luck googling that info.  But if we grant those numbers then there is a net loss of 504.2 million between the state and local numbers.  That's still offset by the $17,700.00 billion hit to the Gross State Product if illegal immigrants are taken out of the economy, though.
                                      •  You have not been atypical in your response (0+ / 0-)

                                        That's still offset by the $17,700.00 billion hit to the Gross State Product if illegal immigrants are taken out of the economy, though

                                        I have had similar discussions with others who have quoted the Strayhorn report without either reading it or truly comprehending what it says (I recommend that you read the entire report, it really doesn't say what people think it says).

                                        Consider that what you are saying here is the exact same rational that was used by the South to continue the practice of slavery.

                                        Beyond that, to argue that we as a country should continue the institutionalization of illegal immigration for monetary reasons begs the question what else are we willing to subvert as national policy so as to continue to 'grow'.

                                        You see, this is exactly why the federal government turns a blind eye to illegal immigration in the first place. Wages aren't increasing, inflation is going thru the roof, and 70% of our economy runs off of 'consumption'.

                                        What does allowing the continuation of unchecked illegal immigration accomplish?

                                        While wages are not increasing, we are importing ever cheaper labor, so you don't notice the lack of wage increase as much.

                                        While inflation in real terms is going thru the roof, a continuing flow of new illegal immigrants keeps a lid on core inflation as the 'consumer' perceives it.

                                        As to creating new 'consumers' for our 'consumer' economy, forget about it, the overriding percentage of the wages of illegal immigrants, who make on average $29,500 per year, goes toward 'consumption'.

                                        If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                                        by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 03:20:15 PM PDT

                                        [ Parent ]

                                        •  One more thing (0+ / 0-)

                                          What does allowing the continuation of unchecked illegal immigration accomplish

                                          The most important thing it accomplishes is the continuation of 'deep integration' which is, in the end, the ultimate goal of NAFTA.

                                          If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                                          by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 03:22:42 PM PDT

                                          [ Parent ]

                                        •  The comparison to slavery doesn't work out (1+ / 0-)

                                          Recommended by:
                                          mariachi mama
                                          in practice.  I don't think slavery was a very productive economic system, actually, whatever the rationale used to justify it.  I'd venture to guess that the productivity of the freed individuals went up significantly.  There have certainly been enough studies of work slowdowns and sabotage as methods of slave resistance to lend credence to my speculation.

                                          A good chunk of that GSP is represented by individuals selling their own services, products, or running businesses with employees.  I can't say for sure that the presence of illegal immigrants depresses wages overall, the information is conflicting in the various reports I've seen.  The Texas report only suggests a rise of 0.6 percent in the absence of illegal labour.  But, since there is no solution preventing illegal immigration that is not worse in every respect than the problems (or that will even work), I think energy should be focused on enforcing wage and labour laws and preventing the outrageous abuses that illegal workers are forced to submit to for fear of the INS being called.  We can't prevent illegal immigration but we can regulate employers more tightly and make it harder to profit by egregiously exploiting their workers.  The punitive focus on the individual workers interferes with that.

            •  Unfortunately (0+ / 0-)

              bigots don't ask for your paperwork before targetting you.   They target you based on your skin color or language you speak.

              •  There are laws against that. (0+ / 0-)

                •  Laws that aren't enforced (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  bellatrys, paintitblue

                  don't really do any good now do they?  Especially when the mayor and council members in your town are the ones egging it on.

                  •  Any citizen that feels that they are being (0+ / 0-)

                    unjustly treated has recourse. Call the ACLU for
                    g-ds sake.

                    •  first issue is the cops (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      paintitblue

                      we had a Pennsylvania state cop that would pull over any Hispanic with multiple people in their car.  He found lots of illegal aliens that way, and wrote a lot of bogus tickets to American citizens.  A reporter wrote a story about him in the local paper and told the story of how he pulled over a Hispanic driver, found out he was an American, and wrote him a ticket for having a baseball cap in his rear window.  Justice served.

                      A lawsuit would not get any traction against that cop, however much he deserved it.  

                      •  So is your remedy is to grant amnesty to everyone (0+ / 0-)

                        that broke the law because there are assholes in the country that would do this kind of thing? Let's legalize drugs here in the U.S. because of some racial profiling that goes on. Let's legalze organized crime because some innocent Italians might be harrassed, etc.... You get the point.

                  •  Yep, the law which defines the signing (0+ / 0-)

                    Laws that aren't enforced don't really do any good now do they

                    Of an I9 form without the legal right to work in this country as Federal Felony Perjury hasn't been enforced for years now.

                    If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                    by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 12:00:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Also not ridiculous when you consider the (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            DWKING, sable
            support and airtime Lou Dobbs has given to the Minutemen: "I support the Minuteman Project and the fine Americans who make it up in all they've accomplished, fully, relentlessly, and proudly."

            They aren't even very discreet with the swastikas and Confederate flags.

             

          •  Your right (0+ / 0-)

            Not ridiculous when you realize that not all people bother to differentiate on legal or illegal

            Many people do not differentiate between legal and illegal. I submit the following:

            Even among African Americans, who are supposedly "anti-immigrant"

            If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:30:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Overall and long term (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mommyof3, brentmack

    you're correct: immigration is a bad issue for the GOP.

    But it's trickier when you look at state by state and district by district.

  •  I have a solution (4+ / 0-)

    Repeal all the racially-motivated immigration quotas established to limit non-white migration to the USA. Open our resident visa process to anyone who can pay the fees and pass the background checks.
    We'd (again) attract the Best and the Brightest from around the world... solve our low-income labor shortage... and redress a series of century-old wrongs.

    I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

    by willie horton on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:42:29 AM PDT

    •  Yeehaw (0+ / 0-)

      Repeal all the racially-motivated immigration quotas established to limit non-white migration to the USA. Open our resident visa process to anyone who can pay the fees and pass the background checks.
      We'd (again) attract the Best and the Brightest from around the world... solve our low-income labor shortage...

      For starters, mass deportations are off the table - okay?  That's NOT going to happen.

      But I'm always curious about the details behind these type of ideas.

      With this one we'd allegedly get the best and brightest AND solve our low-income labor shortage at the same time.

      Do you have any idea about the number of people per year that you'd be letting in?  If so, I'd like to see it.

      It seems to me that there's one helluva financial mess going on this country right now.  And IMHO, there ain't too much of it that's been created by a shortage of low-income labor.

      In fact, I'd say we have a "healthy surplus" of low-income Americans who are unable to comfortably afford housing, health care, decent transportation, maintenance of their infrastructure - and even food and fuel are becoming more challenging.  

      So I don't know if we need a lot more people coming here because 5-$10 an hour looks like BIG MONEY.

      Now I know we can easily come up with studies from right wing think tanks that "prove" how wonderful and beneficial it is to have a continual stream of "low-income workers" coming into the country.  But frankly, I just don't believe them.

      At some point the law of diminishing returns must be recognized.  And if we haven't reached it already, we need to be very aware of where that point lies.

      This issue isn't about racism or social justice.  It's about the practical management of the nation's economy.  And I don't accept the belief that we're going to be able to "low-income" our way back to national prosperity.

      And let's recall, not only have American's wages been stagnating - but that's occurred AT THE SAME TIME that the dollar's value (that's called your purchasing power) has fallen to multi-decade lows.

      So with mass deportations off the table - we need to take a hard, cold look at what's happening to wages in this country.

       

       

    •  You have absolutely no idea (0+ / 0-)

      Repeal all the racially-motivated immigration quotas established to limit non-white migration to the USA

      What you are talking about -- 2006 Yearbook of Immigration Statistics.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:37:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  YES. (0+ / 0-)

      I work for a software company that can't find people, and can't get any new workers from the outside because of ridiculous restrictions on trade.

      Seattle Transit Blog http://seattletransitblog.com

      by Bensch on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:45:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Because it IS a social justice issue! (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, ivorybill, sable, paintitblue

    ...and more people see it that way than as an "us vs. them" issue...

    Our country can survive war, disease, and poverty... what it cannot do without is justice.

    by mommyof3 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:43:00 AM PDT

    •  And this is one reason this stat is so gratifying (4+ / 0-)

      59% of African Americans favor legalization, and only 22% take the hardline deportation side of things.  

      We've been told that Republicans can exploit the black-brown split, and perhaps they can.  But I was glad to see that the AA community - which faces its own unique concerns about access to employment - is less likely to slam the door on immigrants than the white community in CT.  

      It is a social justice issue.  The majority in the AA community get it.  

      God, who gave man scabies, also gave him hands to scratch them.

      by ivorybill on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:35:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  a question (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    brentmack

    Is it possible for these ID cards to be used, ever, for nefarious purposes?

    If they are multi-purpose, will they be tracking parking habits, library habits, etc.?

    Honestly, I could be way off and outright paranoid, but I wonder.

  •  I am glad you continue to defend (7+ / 0-)

    immigrants.  This is a human rights issue.

    Deportation is wrong.  Even McCain, as bad as he is on so many issues, knows this.

    It seems anti-immigrants will not be a national issue in the presidential campaign.  That's good.

    "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

    by TomP on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:44:01 AM PDT

    •  McCane (0+ / 0-)

      has shifted his position. He said in debates that he will give illegal immigrants 60 days to leave and then deport the rest. He moved hard right on the issue to balance Romney. So this will be an issue in GE but a thorny issue for McCane (he does need a cane to walk) because of his flip flopping

  •  New Haven has a long record of bravery like this (10+ / 0-)

    It pioneered needle exchange programs during the first years of AIDS.  A great little city with a very lively music scene... and I believe there's a university there too...

    McCain: Running for Hoover's 21st term

    by Finck II on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:44:12 AM PDT

  •  This makes me so happy (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    freespeech, ivorybill, sable

    And reaffirms my faith in the general decency and good sense of most Americans.  Now if only the right guy wins in November...

    •  Yeah, not so fast (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ek hornbeck

      Here in Danbury CT we have a bigot mayor and a slew of bigots running wild passing or trying to pass legislation targetting illegals and immigrants in general ranging from banning public volleyball games to spontaneous parades, to deputizing local cops so they can help with ICE raids.  One of our city council people was voted out last election because she was caught passing around racist emails.  It's really bad.

  •  "that asshole Lou Dobbs" (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    freespeech, ivorybill, sable

    my favorite part!

    "The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you don't listen to it, you will never know what justice is." - Howard Zinn

    by atemptfailure on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:50:08 AM PDT

  •  Yay to my home town! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    freespeech, mommyof3, sable

    New Haven gets a bad rep, but things like this make me proud to call it home.  

  •  The whole story (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, mommyof3, sable, rbile

    When people learn more details about what is happening in the ICE detention centers, there will be an even greater shift in public opinion. We are talking about pregnant women sleeping on the floor, hiding their children to protect them from assault inside prisons. We are letting xenophobes and racists steal this issue and, in the process, we look worse that the commie Soviet union  to the rest of the world.

  •  Interesting to note (0+ / 0-)

    that 44% of Democrats are unwilling to support citizenship.  After this primary campaign, does that come as a surprise to anyone?

    I'm curious.

    Give me liberty, or give me death!

    by salsa0000 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:52:59 AM PDT

  •  I live in area with lots of illegals (5+ / 0-)

    It is disgusting, overcrowded houses, crime, no upkeep of house and property, lots of day laborers hanging out waiting for jobs, lots of check cashing businesses.  

    However, we have helped create that situation with unmanageble immigration policies.  We need to be working with these people, educating them, helping them get real jobs, learn our culture.  lets face it, our boomers are getting older and we are going to need a younger population to assist filling in the gaps.  If we work together, it could be a win-win situation.  

    New Haven should be applauded for taking these steps!  In the long run, our entire society will benefit.  

    "The woman's life is misery; for God's sake, people, at least give her a few good songs". NYT review of The Color Purple

    by arogue7 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:57:39 AM PDT

  •  I am on the same side of this issue (0+ / 0-)

    and dobbs is a demagoguing deranged asshole racist, but i stll want to know: why do local officials seem to pick only presidential election years to ram through these highly controversial issues (like gay marriage licenses 4 years ago, and I am on the same side on that one too, btw). Why not last year?

  •  Rahm Emanuel, corporate fixer. Feh. n/t (0+ / 0-)

    "That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn--or be forced--to accept." Impeachment for treason IS an American value.

    by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:58:43 AM PDT

  •  wow. great story. notice the evil commentary? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    paintitblue

    who ARE these people?

    we certainly have to do more to address anti-immigrant backlash. anytime there is a piece related to immigrants, the comments are out of control.

    i spent most of my morning annoyed after i finally noticed this in the strib.

  •  As A Right Wing Troglodyte (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    freespeech, brentmack

    I would tell you there are two issues and they get blended together.

    1.  What do we do with the people that are already here?
    1.  How do we keep more illegals from coming?

    Most people - Rep or Dem or Ind - are supportive of legitimizing the illegals that are already here.  The problem is how do we keep more illegals from coming?  We've done amnesty 2x and had it proposed a third, and each time 10x as many people as before were affected, despite all of the assurances that "this would be the last time."  And the border would be secure.

    I come down this way:

    "Don't talk to me about legalization until the border is secure.  If you can guarantee that instead of 40K illegals a month we are getting 4K illegals a month, I'd be glad to create a path towards legalizatioin FOR THE PEOPLE ALREADY HERE."

    And, I would be that a more robust poll would show I'm well within the majority on that.

    "Capitalism is the only system that can make freedom, individuality, and the pursuit of values possible in practice." - Ayn Rand

    by headhunt23 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:59:56 AM PDT

    •  What are you going to do about (0+ / 0-)

      Don't talk to me about legalization until the border is secure

      The 46% of illegal immigrants that are in the US that did not cross the border illegally? That is to say they came into the country legally on a visa and simply never left?

      The fastest growing segment of the illegal immigrant population now comes from India, not from any country south of the US border.

      This bullshit about 'secure the borders' is just that -- bullshit.

      It give the Democrats a platitude wherein they don't have to deal with the fact that they don't support interior and worksite enforcment, and it gives the Republicans another excuse to renew the Boeing, Norththrop, Raytheon, etc., twenty year long boondoggle of a 'virtual fence'.

      'Secure the borders' is a talking point, nothing more.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:48:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Lies, damn lies and statistics (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        brentmack

        that would still mean 54% of illegals crossed the border illegally, and if there are 12M illegals, then 6.5M people - more than the population of most states - are still running around illegally.  This is hardly insignificant.

        And, you might be correct that the % of illegals from India are the fastest growing, but that is still a relatively small number and is limited in scope because they mostly come legally via an H1B, which are limited.

        And, I don't support a virtual fence, for the same reason I don't have a virtual front door, virtual windows or a virtual garage door.  They don't work.  I support a real, double fence 15-20 feet high with razor wire at the top.

        So, no, it isn't "bullshit".

        "Capitalism is the only system that can make freedom, individuality, and the pursuit of values possible in practice." - Ayn Rand

        by headhunt23 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:59:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Because... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, brentmack

    I think most Americans think the immigration laws need a lot of reformation as they've long since become detached from reality.

    At the same time, while the idea of rounding up all the brown people and shipping them south of the Rio Grande doesn't sit well with many of us since it means breaking up families, we're not all that thrilled with the notion of blanket amnesty, open borders, and handing out legal documents to non-citizens, so a path to citizenship is a compromise.

    What I think would behoove our representatives is to be honest with the American people, outline the areas of immigration laws that need reform and take those areas on one at a time with several smaller bills, instead of trying to jam everything and the kitchen sink into a 1,000 page bill that none of them are going to bother reading.

    "Morbo congratulates our gargantuan cyborg president. May death come quickly to his enemies."

    by Dread972 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:59:59 AM PDT

  •  Did anyone notice this story from- (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sable

    Bob Hildreth, the anonymous donor who posted over $200,000 in bail for 40 illegal immigrants who had been arrested in a federal factory raid in New Bedford, Mass., last year.

    Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

    by tnichlsn on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:00:22 AM PDT

  •  Not a social justice issue-- (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jagger

    It's a matter of security and community safety, among other things. How does it make sense in terms of national security to deny documentation to otherwise undocumented people? Is it really the goal to drive them even further underground than they already are? Believe me, there are important benefits to society in giving these people some kind of documentation.

    And the safety issue is pretty well elaborated upon in the diary: large amounts of cash, resistance to reporting crime. What needs more attention is that this will inevitably spill out of the "immigrant" community, however one wants to define it, and will expand into the general community.

    Yes, there's a social justice element to it, in trying to help the underclass (I hate that word); but to label it as primarily a social justice issue will get only a big shrug from those to whom social justice is NMFP.

    I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.--Thomas Jefferson

    by jazzyndn on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:01:48 AM PDT

    •  Not a social justice issue-- (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      brentmack

      I tend to think that social justice and community safety are intimately tied.  If large numbers of people are living as a permanent underclass or in debt slavery conditions, then community safety is just a veneer - crimes are being committed against a portion of the community.  The fact that this crime is out of sight and out of mind for most people doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  

      And above all, it's an economic issue.  Undocumented workers are trapped between exploitation by the corporatocracy in their home countries and exploitation by the corporatocracy in this country.

      Either way, somebody profits.

      For discoursive internettery please visit Toasterhead's Blogosphere

      by toasterhead on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 12:10:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Under Bush, Federal Government is a Fascist State (0+ / 0-)

    This is what they did in Germany. The Federal Government is in for a shock they will never recover from. Elections don't matter.

    It's the Fascism, stupid! Never.Again!

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

    by ezdidit on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:02:51 AM PDT

  •  The GOP keeps pusing latinos away (0+ / 0-)

    The Dems should sweep them in 2008

    "There is nothing wrong with America can't be cured by what is right with America" -Bill Clinton

    by SensibleDemocrat on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:04:13 AM PDT

  •  Progressive who disagrees (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    brentmack

    Environment - # 1 threat = POPULATION

    Laws - it's no wonder liberals get a "soft on crime" rap

    Unions - low paid labor undermines all union bargaining

    Growth, growth, growth is a Republican issue, it benefits businesses not people.  It makes no sense for a party that was built on the backs of American blue collar workers.

    Yes we need to be compassionate but we also should not be turning the other cheek on adult law breakers.

    •  Crime? (0+ / 0-)

      As for unions, all the more reason that 12 million undocumented workers should be brought from out of the shadows.  By giving them status, you prevent employers from exploiting them.  Unions are and should continue efforts to unionize them.

      Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed (It never was America to me.)

      by Texas78704 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 12:16:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Even if u wanted to deport them, it wouldnt work (0+ / 0-)

    If the goal is to get 100% of the people living without any government knowledge of them, into the public eye and accounted for...then deportation is off the table.  Unless you want to set up check points and pull a gestapo move, and even then, you would still have people unaccounted for.

    •  Which means immigration law (0+ / 0-)

      then deportation is off the table

      Is off the table.

      If you have no form of civil relief for illegally entering the US, in the form of deportation from the US, then de facto you have no immigration law i.e. de facto you have open borders in the US.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:51:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thats why we need to enforce our borders (0+ / 0-)

        before we put any immigration laws into effect.

        Once we can enforce our borders and control them, then we can bring forth everyone from the shadows, and then we can have a real immigration law policy.

        it has to be in that order, or the goal of getting everyone accounted for, will be a failure.  and trying to enforce an immigration policy, when we dont control our borders, is impossible.

  •  Arrest the Employer Who Hires Them- You and Me?! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, brentmack, Marcion

    My gardener is illegal, and so are two of the three maids who come and clean my home. I am, in effect, their employer. I create employment for them, and by their communicating back to their Mexican relatives how well they're faring, I am helping to attract more illegals to come up here and work.

    I point this out because many have called for prosecution of the "criminals" who employ illegals are inadvertently (I assume) calling for my prosecution as well. Might they be calling for your arrest too? The vast majority of illegals don't work for major corporations - they work for us. We need to acknowlede our own responsibility here, don't we?

    •  Yes, arrest employers too. (0+ / 0-)

      It takes two to tango.  Putting all of the enforcement and punishment into one side is both wrong and counterproductive.

      -7.75 -4.67

      "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

      by Odysseus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:57:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think that what should happen... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ClapClapSnap

    ... is whatever the majority of white folks DON'T want to happen. Historically, that's a good way to go.

  •  illegal immigration is driving our economy (0+ / 0-)

    Even leaving aside the human compassion and international brotherhood arguments, I work in the real estate sector in the Los Angeles area and can tell you for a fact that a great chunk of our economy is being supported by the labor of illegal immigrants, by their spending, by their investment in housing, etc. The economy here and the housing market would collapse overnight if the migration was to be stopped, not to mention the damae to the vital culture of this city that owes so much to the mixing of Latin American cuttures.

    I wish more figures were available, becuase people like Lou Dobbs just give their viewers the known costs in social services, while the benefits in taxable revenue, job creation and the growth in the private sector, which I see first hand remain unmeasured.

    Do not rejoice in Hitler's defeat, for though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

    by Marcion on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:13:00 AM PDT

    •  Bullshit (0+ / 0-)

      illegal immigration is driving our economy

      Illegal immigrants make up no more than five percent of the American workforce.

      I work in the real estate sector in the Los Angeles area

      You also work in a one of the five states with the highest number of illegal immigrants in the country, in one of the counties with the largest number of illegal immigrants in the country.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:54:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yeah, I mean the LA economy (0+ / 0-)

        Which is one of the most vibrant sectors of the overall economy. But it's not the overall engine of growth for the entire US economy, although I do think it's a significant contributor. The percentage of workforce doesnt' tell the full story. What are you getting all worked up about?

        Do not rejoice in Hitler's defeat, for though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

        by Marcion on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 12:04:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Why Conservatives should love illegal immigrants (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Texas78704

    Leaving aside the fact that historically probably 90% of all our ancestors were illegal immigrants (even my ancestors who came over on the Mayflower were violating the King's charter, which allowed them to settle only in Virginia), here's why Conservatives should LOVE illegal immigrants.

    (1) Social Darwinism / entrepreneurial free enterprise at its best. These folks have showed initiative, cunning, and ingenuity in getting into the country in the first place, figuring out how to get around the rules and regulations concerning their livelihood, and carving out a niche for themselves. Unlike their lazy and dumb counterparts who stayed at home. Why, it's the enterpreneurial spirit, in retail. They're the cream of the crop of their native lands, and we only want the best in the U S of A.

    (2) Family Values. By far the vast majority of illegal immigrants come to this country to care for their families, and virtually all of them come from deeply conservative religious traditions.

    (3) Fearful respect for authority. While  most of us live our lives with the delusion of having rights and liberties which are inalienable, illegal immigrants know that if they're caught spitting on the sidewalk they may be deported. This creates an incredibly law-abiding populace. My Aunt in San Diego calls the right-hand lane of the I-5, where traffic crawls along at a lawful 55 at all times, the "illegales lane" because nobody wants to get caught in a routine traffic stop and find themselves heading back to Sonora.

    (4) Cost-free support of massive federal spending. Contrary to popular belief, illegal immigrants don't drain social resources such as welfare and public assistance programs. With fake documents to get jobs, most illegals end up contributing payroll taxes, and some income taxes, for which they will never collect retirement or other benefits. (This is not a joke, just yesterday they readjusted the timeline for Social Security Trust Fund solvency based on calculating the contributions of immigrants who will never cash out benefits.) Given our deficits, it would be far more fiscally responsible to invite even more illegales in.

    (5) Support for our armed forces. The fastest-growing demographic enlisting in our armed forces are non-citizens. If we're going to have enough cannon fodder for further foreign adventures without a liberty-depriving draft, what better way than to continue to rely on the patriotism and love of country of foreign-born illegal immigrants who have come for the opportunity and stayed for the adventure of a lifetime.

    Tell me, where else are you going to find conservative values in such density except among the illegal immigrant population?

    Call me any ugly name you choose --
    The steel of freedom does not stain.
    -- Langston Hughes

    by TheCrank on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:16:42 AM PDT

  •  Some rational thinking from Bruce Schneier (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cathy Willey

    In reality, we are a much more secure nation if we do issue driver's licenses and/or state IDs