Daily Kos

Updated: An Interview With a Revenge Voter

by Delawareliberal

Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:08:49 AM PDT

A: Hello, and thank you for being interviewed about this.  You’ve said that if Hillary Clinton wins the nomination that you’ll abstain from voting or vote for a third party candidate. Do you stand by that?

B: Yes I stand by that. I might even vote for McCain, but I doubt it.  One thing is for sure I will not be voting for Hillary Clinton.

A: Doesn’t that seem kind of short sighted? I mean, what if that helps Johnn McCain win?  He wants to stay in Iraq for 100 years.  Also, McCain will be appointing Supreme Court justices.   He looks like he would be a horrible president. Maybe rival Bush in the sucking department.

B: So?

A: You want four more years of Bush?  You want Iraq war blood on your hands?

B: I honestly don’t see much difference between McCain and Clinton.  And if I vote for Clinton what am I really voting for?  More politics as usual? More Democratic triangulation and realpolitik?  I’ve had it with the Democrats standing for that.   I feel like I did my part for the party in voting for John Kerry and see what happened?   Do I have blood on my hands for that vote?  I guess so.  

But as Dick Cheney said, those Americans chose to take part in that conflict.  They could have taken Cheney’s example and opted out.  As Joe Galloway noted, “(According to Cheney our volunteers chose) to squander their lives in a war of choice.” As for the Iraqis. My heart goes out to them and it is comforting to me that Bush, Cheney, Rummy and Tony Blair will be barking in hell for eternity, but I’m taking off the hair shirt if Clinton gets the nomination.  

As for the court, we’ll have a large majority in the Senate so say McCain picks Rush Limbaugh to sit on the bench.  If the Senate Democrats roll over for McCain like they have Bush whose fault will it be that Limbaugh gets to party with Scalia?  Why shouldn’t the Senate Democrats just provide McCain with a list of five people and say – if you want to appoint someone to the bench, pick one of these five people.  

They wouldn’t of course and that is another reason for voting against Clinton if she gets the nomination.

A: What do you mean?

B: This primary campaign has put me in a nihilistic frame of mind.  If Clinton gets picked by the Democrats to be their nominee it tells me that there is nothing much worth saving in the Democratic party.  I get the feeling that it needs to be totally demolished in order to be rebuilt from the ground up.  Maybe another Republican President could finish off the currently useless incarnation of the once great Democratic Party.

Knowing what we know about Clinton and Obama, if Clinton wins I will be of the strong opinion that the Democratic Party is a house that can only be fixed by an earthquake, tsunami or a raging fire.   An earthquake and a raging fire followed by a tsunami would be perfect.    

UPDATE:

As this gets ready to vanish into oblivion, I just wanted to thank everyone who commented.  Being a Dem is like being in a big fucked up dysfunctional family and even though you love your fucked up brothers and sisters - you still go home with your spouse from thanksgiving and say "Wow! My brothers are fucked up."

This time I guess I am that fucked up brother - because I am a "revenge voter."  I don't trust Hillary Clinton and I think her nomination would say terrible things about the Democratic Party. That is pretty much that.  There is no use in trying to talk me out of it.

I don't care if she is a million times better than McCain or a trillion times better.  I am not voting for her if she gets the nomination.

Period.

Tags: Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Revenge voting, Presidential Primary (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 75 comments

  •  Comment away. But I'm a nihilist so forgive me (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wdrath, lordcopper, Dude1701, Dark UltraValia, jazmen8

    for not caring one bit about what you think.

    by Delawareliberal on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:10:44 AM PDT

  •  Wow. (7+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jbdigriz, Tex Kosmaniac Dem Lady, thisniss, fromdabak, AlBob, Dark UltraValia, David Kroning

    Wow, that is absolutely terrifying. I've been thinking a lot, though, about what I will do if Clinton wins the nomination. You see, it's not just a matter of "my guy didn't win so I'm mad about it." If she wins, it will be through the intimidation of superdelegates (see today's WashPost for Carville's hit piece on Richardson - very obviously a message to other superdels who are thinking of jumping ship) into overturning the will of the people. And if our leadership is indeed so clueless and spineless as to allow that to happen, well, maybe this guy's right. We need an earthquake and a raging fire. Sigh.

    "In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." -Barack Obama

    by stefanielaine on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:13:41 AM PDT

    •  I agree (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gmhowell, Tex Kosmaniac Dem Lady, thisniss

      At this point, Hillary taking the nom means spitting in the face of millions of voters who have clearly articulated an agenda for change.  We've asked for this change before.  We fought like hell to get Clinton elected in 1992 and we got  . . . well we got capitulation, a demoralized Democratic party, centrism, and merely competent stewardship of our government.  And immediately after constantly caving to every whim of Republicans for 8 years, our party got hammered in the 2000 elections and effectively turned out into the wild for another 6 years.

      Now we've come back and we're asking again for a clearly-articulated agenda of change, of not just sidestepping but loudly countermanding and shouting down the policies of the Bush Administration and moving this country in a definably leftward direction.  And Clinton promises more capitulation, more of the same, more power-grabbing at the expense of the party's base and agenda.  And I'm just not there for it.  I won't vote for McCain.  And I won't vote for him for the same reason I won't vote for Hillary.  She does not offer change.  She won't back down on Iraq.  She won't govern as the opposition to a Republican administration.  She promises to keep sucking up to the dominant prejudices of this country's political elite and to keep pissing on my head and telling me it's raining.  I am not buying it anymore.

      Warned you we tried. Listen you did not. Now screwed we all are.

      by slippytoad on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:31:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  or it could be because (0+ / 0-)

      obama tanks in the summer and the supers save our asses from mccain

      by Peace Train on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:23:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  why didnt you tell this person (0+ / 0-)

    the difference between mccain and clinton

    by Peace Train on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:13:43 AM PDT

  •  I have children. (0+ / 0-)

    I can't afford such nihilism. You know, I heard people make the same argument four years ago.  I said then that I didn't know if my kids could afford four more years and the lasting damage left by them.  I'm still saying that...I'm not willing to write off a whole generation to prove some kind of point.  Maybe I'm just not that kind of revolutionary.

    by tjb22 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:16:39 AM PDT

  •  I must admit, I agree with this man... (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jbdigriz, thisniss, lordcopper, Delawareliberal, IndianaDemocrat

    I have never been a die-hard Democrat.  I have always been a Progressive who voted for the Democrats hoping to get some crumbs.

    Enough is enough.  The Clinton's are an anathma to the Democratic Party.  Let them die with it.

    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

    by David Kroning on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:26:51 AM PDT

  •  EVERY Election Is called "Critical" (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    thisniss, David Kroning

    And if we continue to compromise our principles, just because the Criminal-In-Chief has a (D) behind thier name, we will continue to LOSE...

    I'm old enough to remember being told that the reason I HAD to support Mondale-Ferroro was that Reagan was going to BLOW UP THE PLANET!!!!

    It doesn't get much more dire than that, folks.

    And yet, I just can't seem to remember any American cities that disappeared into a Nuclear Cinder. Can you?

    It's THE FUTURE we have to plan for. There will always be a tommorrow, no matter how bad it looks today.

    by IndianaDemocrat on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:27:41 AM PDT

    •  Reagan might not have (0+ / 0-)

      "blown up the planet", but he did an incredible and possibly an irreversible amount of damage.  

      by tjb22 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:30:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You Miss The Point (0+ / 0-)

        It's an ELECTION, not the end of the world...

        And some of us are old enough to realize the sales concept of "Urgency", and how it works.

        Sometimes, it's better to LOSE standing on your principles, than WIN by compromising them, and suffering for it.

        It's how we ended up with the Clinton's in the first place.
        If you want LONG-TERM CHANGE, it's time to start thinking LONG-TERM....

        by IndianaDemocrat on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:34:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And how bad do we have to let it get? (0+ / 0-)

          Look, if we didn't see anything else during GW's reign, we saw how the public can be manipulated during dire times.  Who's to say that they wouldn't become more likely to go further down that route?  

          by tjb22 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:40:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  That's really great for those of you (0+ / 0-)

          who don't have much on the line or for those who are financially and professionally secure. It's not really great for those on the edge either. It's great to think about the "long-term", but there are many people who can't endure the short to medium term. I can think of issues like the Supreme Court, the environment, and cabinet appointees. Those issues can't wait for the "long term".

          There are millions in this country who would suffer under a McCain presidency. They can't afford the martyrdom liberals' position that "things have to get worse before they get better". It's funny how so many "progressives", who are ostensibly concerned about the poor and other vulnerable populations, are so willing to abandon them to a McCain Presidency because of their hated for Hillary.

          As for the Clintons winning the White House I guess that you and the rest of the martyrdom liberal population would rather have had the Democrats continue to lose 40 or more states every four years. Say what you want about the DLC (I no longer support them), but they did make the Democratic Party attractive to white working class suburbanites again.

          by oceanstar17 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:52:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  sometimes... (0+ / 0-)

          Sometimes, it's better to LOSE standing on your principles, than WIN by compromising them, and suffering for it.

          Now that I think about it, I could have used that rationale to abstain from voting in every presidential election I've ever participated in. In fact, I could use that rationale this year to abstain from voting for Barack Obama.

          by Bill W on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:53:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  No Regan didn't blow up the planet (0+ / 0-)

      but the Republicans are destroying Iraq as we sit here this morning safely typing at our computers.

      I think we don't have the luxury of voting our consciences on this point as we owe it to Iraq to fix the mess the Republicans started there.  Any renouncing of that responsibility is selfish.  If McCain wins then the war continues whereas if a Democrat is elected the chances of getting out of there and fixing what the US started is much, much higher.

      by llamaRCA on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:50:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your faith (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        thisniss, IndianaDemocrat

        in Hillary is charming.  And let's face it both Obama and Clinton supporters are taking a leap of faith.

        I happen to agree with the long time Hillary Clinton watchers who are very skeptical.

        Her strong DLC background puts the lie to the argument that she would govern as you would expect a "Democrat" to govern.  I don't see any real change resulting from a Clinton presidency.  

        by Delawareliberal on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:16:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks I love to be charming, but (0+ / 0-)

          since I think your trying to be insulting and condescensending I think I haven't actually acheived charming have I?

          Sure I'm skeptical of Hillary but I know McCain is a warmonger.  So, I'd rather vote for someone I'm unsure of than vote for someone I know will do what I disapprove of.

          by llamaRCA on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:27:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  thats insane (0+ / 0-)

          dont you see a difference in who will be chosen for the supreme court

          that alone is worth choosing clinton over mccain

          by Peace Train on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:10:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The issue is personal sovereignty (0+ / 0-)

    My president vs. the country's president.

    The premise here is that if you don't for them they are not your president, even if they are the country's president.

    Some of Obama's supporters won't accept Hillary as their president so if they don't vote for her in the GE then Hillary or McCain maybe the country's president but they won't be their president.

    The voters who would rather see McCain win than vote for Hillary (and the same might be said for those who would rather see McCain win than vote for Obama) are asserting their personal sovereignty and stating that they care more about who their president is than who the country's president is.

    We shall overcome, someday. Yes we can.

    by Sam Wise Gingy on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:40:22 AM PDT

  •  I will not, (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Tex Kosmaniac Dem Lady, thisniss

    ever

    vote for McCain.

    But I will not, ever, vote for Clinton, either.

    From the AUMF to (in Hillary's case) the way she's run her campaign it's clear that she does not represent my America.  On a clear majority of issues important to me she's on the wrong side.

    And I find the crumbs dropped to bribe my vote offensive (and not all that credible, anyway).  Health care is a perfect example of that . . . "universal" maybe (that's good), but at the price of giving the whole system over to her profiteering corporate insurance buddies, funded by a regressive and subject to even further abuse "mandate" (read tax).  This is "progressive"?

    "Lesser of two evils" ? ? ? Not by much, not by enough . . .

    by Deward Hastings on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:54:39 AM PDT

  •  Mine would not be a "revenge" vote. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ChurchofBruce, Quicklund, IndianaDemocrat

    I was against Hillary even running before she even announced.  As an informed Democrat I knew even then that any campaign she ran would be all about Hillary all the time. She is all about gaining power and money for Hillary.  She is NOT all about doing what is best for all Americans (that's you and me, folks).

    I believed in Edwards, especially Elizabeth Edwards, now I will support Obama as the party nominee and as President.  I would be betraying all I believe in if I voted for Hillary, even if she was the only choice on the Democratic ticket.  I would rather take a chance on McCain.  He has proven again and again that he really does love America.  I don't agree with most of the positions he has adopted.  My only hope would be that once he was free of the pressures of pleasing all factions of the Repug party, he might in the end do what is best for America.  With Hillary there is no such hope.  She is, and will be continue to be, bought and paid for by the highest bidder. And that highest bidder is not you and I, folks.

    by Lizzie Jane on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:01:47 AM PDT

    •  Bingo, Bingo. Bingo. (0+ / 0-)

      Pefectly articluated, IMHO. And I fully agree with your first sentence.

      You bet your ass I'm bitter. And, yes, middle-america 'values' voters, you *have* been duped. Obama's right. And I'm bitter as hell.

      by ChurchofBruce on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:04:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  bullshit (0+ / 0-)

      tell me mccain will nominate liberal judges

      go ahead lie to me

      with clinton we will have 3 or 4 of the most liberal judges ever appointed to the supreme court and they will change america for the better and for the good of every minority and every woman for the next 40 years.

      compare that with what we will get with mccain.

      by Peace Train on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:15:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  choices (0+ / 0-)

    We have choices and those choices have consequences.

    Forget Mccain, what will a HRC presidency look like on the basis of her actions? Forget the D beside her name.

    What will America look like with her running the country.
    What will it do to our economy?
    what will it mean for the war?
    what will be the impact globally?
    How will healthcare be better?
    What will the Courts look like?
    Will America be better when Hillary is PREZ?

    Save Our Daughters

    by kiki236 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:14:54 AM PDT

  •  More martyrdom liberalism (0+ / 0-)

    So typical of post-1968 far left types. They would rather lose than win if they don't get their way. So who cares about the millions who would suffer should McCain win as long as they "send a message" to Hillary?

    by oceanstar17 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:44:16 AM PDT

  •  the clintons... (0+ / 0-)

    already cost us the 2000 election thanks to bill's need to turn out an intern...

    now they want to cost us 2008...

    i am done with them...

    Politics didn't lead me to working people. Working people led me to politics. -- Barack Obama

    by JackieandFritz on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:47:50 AM PDT

  •  You are not alone (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Tex Kosmaniac Dem Lady, Quicklund

    I have thought about this over and over again.  Would I vote for Hillary if she gets the nom?  Could I even do it?  I'm starting to realize that I don't believe I can.  I'm tired of my vote being taken for granted.  I'm tired of the parties knowing they can do whatever they want to do because people will vote for the candidate in the end.  And that applies to both sides.  I know plenty of Repub that didn't want McCain, yet they'll vote for him now because "we can't give the country to the Democrats".  

    I've wondered if I would suck it up and vote for her or not vote at all.  I am not swayed by people trying to put fear in my about McCain. That is the worst argument ever to someone rejecting fear from a democratic candidate so why would it work about a Repub?  But hopefully this conversation is a moot point and I don't have to make that decision because it's not looking good for Hillary right now.

    by Change Is Coming on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:56:33 AM PDT

  •  Have to agree and more importantly.... (0+ / 0-)

    She has proven herself to be as stupidly stubborn cheating and lying as Bush.  Sorry,  I have no faith in her whatsoever quite opposite..I believe she will loose the house and senate balance..she is practically crazy.  Honestly I think McCain and a Democratic Congress would be better.  Now look carefully at what they have done... They lie so blatantly and they don't care or think that  they can make us believe her.   some may call me naive but that is how I feel.  I will not ever vote for Hillary.

    "hold on to dreams for when dreams die life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly" e. dickinson

    by kansasgal on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:57:58 AM PDT

    •  you just dont like pussy (0+ / 0-)

      with teeth

      by Peace Train on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:21:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no, I was happy to think of a woman running (0+ / 0-)

        for President.  Character means more to me than gender or race obviously.  I have supported Barack since the beginning of this thing.  However until about 2 months ago figured I would vote for Hillary even with baggage.  Unfortunately she became as stubborn and pugnacious as Bush to me.  This is not something I want to see in our POTUS ever again.  Strong is different than lying and cheating.  Don't demean Cats and Women that way would you not?

        "hold on to dreams for when dreams die life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly" e. dickinson

        by kansasgal on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:27:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The bad news is (0+ / 0-)

    you guys HAVE to vote for whoever the Dem nominee is.  The rest of us, Repubs, Indies, Libertarians, Martians, whatever DON'T have to.  We're not all torn apart over this thing.  But don't worry.  It'll all be over after Denver then y'all can settle in and go after McCain.  It's not that the rest of us really know who we're gonna vote for - it's just that we have more choices and less agony.

    Praise Dog!

    by silverlioness on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:06:50 PM PDT

Permalink | 75 comments