Daily Kos

Why the Clinton campaign goes on

Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:48:58 PM PDT

Recently, in the New York Times, David Brooks echoed Christopher Beam's blog on Slate discussing Senator Clinton’s ever diminishing chances of winning the Democratic Presidential nomination. Mr. Brooks put her odds at 5%, Christopher was not so charitable. Her campaign is currently being described as "Soldiering on", "continuing in grim determination" and proceeding with "the audacity of Hopelessness". The Clinton campaign shows no sign of folding up the tent before the May 6th primaries, and has recently announced Montana campaign stops. That would bring her current plans to include the last week of the primary season. These events are being scheduled despite the fact that she trails Senator Obama in all significant indicators and measurements; total delegates, pledged delegates, popular votes, states won, Super-delegates gained since "Super Tuesday", cash on hand, contributions raised in the last month, etc.

Disclaimer - Obama supporter. ...and before you call me a Troll or a Repug, work on intelligent discourse and the points I raise.

Many talking heads, commentators and contributors to blogs have commented on her apparent doggedness, and have been amazed as her campaign has risen from the dead and pressed on. Senator Clinton and her campaign staff are widely attacked for this. I personally see many whose comments to blogs and political commentary in the main stream media deride Senator Clinton for her selfishness, blind ambition, unwillingness to "see reality" and quit the race and willingness to harm the Democratic Party in a desperate bid for the unobtainable. Many have expressed the view that she sees herself as "owed" the Presidency and therefore will not end her run for the White House and cede it to the upstart. This view of her campaign has some dubious apriories, and looks at her current strategy and tactics in the shallow, simple way one would look at a run for Student President, not the President of the United States of America.

Regardless of one’s opinion of President and Senator Clinton, Peck, Wolfson and Maggie Williams, thinking of them as politically naive and unable to see reality as it is, is both insulting to them and their achievements, and risks being baffled and caught unaware by their next political move. These are very smart, politically sophisticated professionals who do not engage in doomed campaigns for spite. In the spreadsheet leaked to the Bloomberg News Service, the Obama campaign developed and laid out their predicted results for the remaining primaries after Super Tuesday. Their analysis proved to be remarkably accurate. To assume that the Clinton campaign never performed the same level of analysis stretches to the level of unbelievable. You may not like what they have done, and they did make some glaring mistakes, but they are professionals who have done this election thing before, and are basically in the same league as their counterparts in the Obama campaign. After Iowa, New Hampshire and Super Tuesday, the Clinton campaign had the same basic grasp of the lay of the land as did Obama's. Their future just did not look so bright.

It appears that the Clinton campaign strategy involved marketing her as the Inevitable Nominee, and planned to reinforce this by delivering a knockout punch to their opponents on February 5th. They had a strategy based on pre-primary polling and on their assessment of the potential of the other candidates in the field. Dennis Kucinich , Mike Gravel, Chris Dodd and Joe Biden were seen as too light weight to be worried about. Governor Bill Richardson and Senator Obama were not considered much more worrisome. They were figured to have limited appeal and were seen as likely to have fundraising challenges. Senator Edwards was seen as the major player, and the only serious threat to the nomination. The campaign based their candidate’s face time, their fundraising plan and their spending on these assumptions and the resulting strategy. Unfortunately for the Clintons, they made a serious underestimation of the Senator from Illinois’s appeal, particularly to independents and change driven Democrats, and his ability to tap into the vast well of small dollar donors. Clinton had a 5 point lead in Iowa (almost 20% ahead,) five weeks before the caucus. In little more that three weeks, this comfortable position, from which she would go on to win New Hampshire and then clean out the remaining opposition, evaporated in the Iowa winter. Through a superior ground game and a better understanding of the way of caucuses, Obama won Iowa and left the Clinton campaign stunned and in deep trouble. When the media proclaimed NH as a "must win" state for her campaign, they were not making news to boost their ratings. She really needed to win or it would be all done. Hillary’s desperation in New Hampshire was palpable. If she lost here, the entire foundation of her strategy was gone. Whether her tears two days before the NH primary were a calculated ploy or were stress induced makes little difference. Either way they show how desperate Senator Clinton was. A loss in Iowa, followed by defeat in the Granite state would spell trouble in the Palmetto State. With out momentum, going into Super Tuesday, and coming out with slim pickings would end her run.

The miscalculation of Obama’s appeal, tactical mistakes made by President Clinton and other surrogates that alienated her former African American constituency combined with the Obama campaign’s ability to organize and win caucuses resulted in a lackluster performance on February 5th. Coming out of Super Tuesday, there were really only two major players, Barack and Hillary. Both campaigns looked at similar numbers going forward and came to a similar conclusion:

If nothing major changed, Senator Barack Obama was, in all likelihood, the next Democratic Presidential nominee and probably would be the next President.

The Clinton campaign had to asses their strategy and marketing plans and find a way to deal with the new conditions on the ground. This is where we saw the roll out of new Hillarys: Ready on Day One, The Most Qualified, The Candidate of Change that can be Implemented, The Softer and Nicer Hillary, The Emotional Soft and Fuzzy Hillary, The Workingman’s Hillary, The Hillary with International Experience, the Angry and Ready for a Fight Hillary, the Negative and Attacking Hillary. As each of these failed to take hold, the next was marched out. We also saw a more subtle change. In Iowa, Senator Clinton gave her concession speech, such as it was, surrounded be Madeline Albright and others from the Clinton administration. After the New Hampshire primary, there were all young, mixed race faces on stage. By the time we got to the February 19th primaries (DC, Maryland and Virginia), both campaigns knew that this was not for Hillary to win; it was now a campaign for Barack to lose. If he did not implode in a very major way, say found in bed with a dead male Goat, there was nothing she could do to win the nomination. They had the numbers, the predicted results of the remaining primaries, could see the lay of the land. Barak had enough of a lead in popular vote and delegate that the Super Delegates would not over turn the will of the people.

Given this state of affairs, where does she go from here? She is a 60 year old junior Senator from a decidedly blue, liberal north eastern state. This is not normally considered an enviable position for a potential Presidential candidate to be in. This was a special year; the GOP had stuck with a war, tax policy and president that all had uniquely low popularity. Even being from New York, she could win this year. A moderately competent president has a good shot at a second term. A two term president has a good chance in helping their VP win the top spot. This could be 8 years of her presidency and another 8 of her hand picked successor. Unfortunately for her, if Obama wins the Presidency, she will get her next realistic shot in 2016, but more likely in 2020 or 2024. She will be 74 in 2020.

Her best and only realistic plan for winning the White House is to accept the inevitable; Barak will win the nomination, and help him lose the election. If this sounds like too Machiavellian, look her situation, at her tactics and their predictable effects. She is in a literal "no win" situation; short of his self-immolation, she does not seem to be able to hurt him enough, and she has tried, to overcome his lead. When she lost Maine and Virginia and then Wisconsin, it was clear that there was no way for her to overcome his delegate lead or popular lead in 2008. 2012 became the target and the object of her current political activities.

Tags: 2008, 2012, Hillary Clinton, primaries (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 131 comments

  •  "And she is telling you SHE'S NOT GOING......." (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Sagittarius, jazmen8, Wisteacher
  •  I really want to read this (14+ / 0-)

    but I'm having a hard time. Please edit it by putting some white space between paragraphs. And breaking the longer paragraphs into shorter ones. Thanks

  •  I don't believe (3+ / 0-)

    ... she will try to undermine the party's nominee in the GE. Of course, she wants to be the nominee, but I believe she's enough of a partisan (more so, in many ways, than Obama) to want the party to win the White House.

  •  I don't think she's consciously trying (8+ / 0-)

    to make Obama loose the general. That would be unprecedented in the history of either party. It would certainly cause a revolt and split the Democratic Party. I think what Clinton is doing is actually relatively sensible given her position: she's simply hanging in there a bit to see whether Obama might not implode after all, in which case the superdelegates would hand her the nomination. I'm relatively confident that this will end no later than June.

    Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!

    by brainwave on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:55:51 PM PDT

    •  To "hang around" she doesn't need... (9+ / 0-)

      to actively campaign. If he disintegrates, the Supers will flock to her and she will have the nomination.

      I support Barack Obama, and I approved this message.

      by mlandman on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:03:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure, don't get me wrong - I totally want her to (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        DianeNYS

        get out now. All I'm saying is just b/c she isn't ready yet to do that doesn't mean she's preparing for a power grab and trampling the will of the people underfoot.

        Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!

        by brainwave on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:26:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Obama says Hillary should stay in the campaign as (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      brainwave, homoaffectional, petral

      long as she wants. "My attitude is that Sen. Clinton can run as long as she wants.

      "She is a fierce and formidable competitor, and she obviously believes that she would make the best nominee and the best president. I think that she should be able to compete, and her supporters should be able to support her for as long as they are willing or able."

      I think that's very smart and savey of him and will bring Hillary supporters over to him when (it appears) he gets the nomination. I wonder if Hillary would say the same if she were in his position. The more Obama talks the more I like him.

    •  I don't think so, either (0+ / 0-)

      The Clintons have certainly seen, and appreciated the impact of, the damage done to our country over the past seven years. I can't imagine that they'd be so craven as to subject the country, and the rest of the world, to four more years of the same just so HRC could run again in 2012.

      But, I could be wrong.

    •  Not at all unprecedented. Humphrey & his allies (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      petral

      worked against McGovern in the general, that is well documented though he may have lost without their efforts anyway.

      There are other examples that can be cited, though that one is the clearest.

      Children in the U.S... detained [against] intl. & domestic standards." --Amnesty International

      by doinaheckuvanutjob on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:01:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If she was just hanging around hoping for (0+ / 0-)

      an implosion, then it would be unnecessary for her to attack him in the dirty manner that she has. This is especially true for the lies that she's told (both the whoppers she's spread about Obama and the ones told to bolster herself). They would be unnecessary. She would just, as they say, hang around. But that's clearly not what she's doing. She is trying to create an implosion, and the GE be damned.

      Change you can Xerox. Print it. Read it. Copy it. Pass it on. Obama '08

      by dawnt on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 11:20:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  2012 won't happen... (15+ / 0-)

    Too many people have floated this scenario and she's stayed in too long.  If Obama loses in November, Clinton would be about as popular among the Democrats as Nader is.  

    •  She has made herself unelectable in 2012 (6+ / 0-)

      I understand this theory, but it is crazier than her staying in.  

      Someone has to tell her, if this is in fact what she is trying to do, that those of us who didn't support her in 2008 and conclude her campaign doomed Obama in the fall will consider her absolutely unacceptable in 2012.

      ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE!

      I don't think she is that stupid.  I think she is continuing because there is just enough of an outside chance can she still get the nomination this year.  Now that is not very intelligent either, but it is smarter than this theory.

      Please, please Pennsylvania Democrats end it.  

      Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren. Bertolt Brecht

      by MoDem on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:25:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The 2012 is actually a viable strategy (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, mlandman

        She can probably get away with it because even here on Daily Kos, where people are prone to cynical sometimes conspiratorial thinking, many people deny she would try such a play.  If the Daily Kos community is skeptical, imagine how easy it will be for her to fool the rest of America into thinking she was a loyal Dem who was rooting for Obama, all the while she and Bill continue to build up McCain in subtle ways to make it look like they're not doing it; saying things like "McCain will be tough to beat because he's so honorbale...McCain loves his country...McCain has a life time of experience, Obama has a speech"  They can easily back peddle away from these comments by saying they were just trying to be respectful and were rooting for Obama all along; then they slip in in 2012.

        •  The AA community may not be (4+ / 0-)

          that forgiving. The newly invested youth and cynics reborn may not be the forgiving.  She won't get the Independents and certainly no cross over Republicans.  

          No, she will not be that acceptable for 2012.  The party will not forgive her for sabotaging the Democrats chance to take back the White House in 2008.  She may get her base who really wants a woman and she in particular, but she can't win with just her base.

          Nothing can stand in the way of a million voices calling for change! - Obama

          by jalenth on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:49:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The public has no memory (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            doinaheckuvanutjob, mlandman

            She'll spend the next 4 years praising Obama so that she can win back African Americans and appeal to his other supporters.  Most people will not believe that even the Clintons would sink low enough to deliberately sabotage her own party and she will be believed when she says she was rooting for Obama, especially if she's smart enough to make a few token campaign appearances for him once it's too little, too late.

            •  Yes, she can re-invent herself in 2012 as a (0+ / 0-)

              centrist populist or whatever will win then, and correct the mistakes she made this time around.

              The Clintons want to be back in the WH, and it seems pretty likely.

              Children in the U.S... detained [against] intl. & domestic standards." --Amnesty International

              by doinaheckuvanutjob on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:04:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Again I disagree. If we don't get a dem in the WH (0+ / 0-)

                this time, we face at least 8 more years in the wilderness.

                "The fact which the politician faces is merely that there is less honor among thieves than was supposed, and not the fact that they are thieves." Thoreau

                by shigeru on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:01:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  No, but she can knock out the weak (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            MoDem

            challengers in the early primaries, as happened this cycle.

            I support Barack Obama, and I approved this message.

            by mlandman on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:51:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  EXACTLY! (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          greenboy, petral, mlandman

          People don't like to believe the worst of the worst of the worst, and there are still people here on Daily Kos who go by that philosophy, to the point of poo-pooing anyone who is willing to face down the darkest of human nature, try to call attention to it, only be to denigrated by fellow Kossacks that smear them with the "conspiracy theorist" label slander.

          •  Republican opportunity (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Nate Roberts, homoaffectional

            Here is my fear in the GE: snippets of Bill and Hillary praising McCain, with the voiceover saying that even the leaders of Obama's own party think McCain is a better candidate.... They kill two birds with one stone--defeat Obama and make the Clintons Democratic pariahs. Dark indeed.

            By all means, Sen. Clinton should stay in the race, but for the love! stop helping the other side.

            Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.~~ H. L. Mencken

            by dissertator on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 11:48:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  its more than 5% according to this (0+ / 0-)

        online calculator -  you can run your estimated wins in the calculation tool and see how various options would affect the final delegate count.

        Try plugging in wins of 55% avg for the remainder of the races and she would only need 60% of the superdelegate vote.
        Since she currently has more of their colleagues in the current congress than he does: where she has 93 to his 84, it may be that supers lean that way too and the rules are that they can vote against their state like Kerry, Kennedy etc.

        Considering FL and MI can't be counted it seems its not unreasonable for the supers to factor in about 70% of her Florida win as somewhat indicative of the GE.

    •  Exactly! (0+ / 0-)

      Too bad they don't get it... of course they've always lived in an alternate reality bubble of their own making.

  •  Nice Diary (7+ / 0-)

    Many have been saying the same thing over the last 4-5 weeks or so but you laid out th history nicely.

    The Clintons are a lot of things but there are not stupid. They are running for 2012 by sabotaging democratic chances in 2012.  They do assume that most democratic voters will not see this.

    Enough triangulation, calculation & equivocation... regular politics won't do... so tired of bull that only the truth can provide relief - Molly Ivins on Hillary

    by Judgment at Nuremberg on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:57:14 PM PDT

    •  Politics have changed in the last decade (12+ / 0-)

      The Clintons don't see that.

      Obama is where he is BECAUSE the VOTERS (not the Party bosses or existing party powers) put him there.  People are MAD, FED UP and want CHANGE.

      No matter how Hillary tries to position herself she does NOT represent 'change' and her current actions are only making it crystal clear that she is exactly the type of 'old politics as usual' that people are FED UP with.

      As time passes, my ambivilant objection to CLinton on principle (too much Bush/Clinton) has grown into intense objection to her candidacy.  Obama has garnered my support - hoping that he CAN change things.  I worry that the current mess will make it far more difficult for him to make REAL changes - and wonder if Hillary has silent backing from party powers who fear a too powerful Obama...... are the Democrats THAT stupid - that they would cripple their own chances to preserve a system the voters are fed up with, a system that preserves their power and perks?

    •  If they are running for 2012 then they are stupid (3+ / 0-)

      No one will forget, and no one will forgive them. Even the most die hard Hillary supporters would never be able to come to terms with this level of destruction of the Democratic party. How could anyone justify  destroying an entire new generation of young voters, let alone debasing the African American democratic base in our party?  There is no justification, and the Clintons would never be welcome again to run for any office within the party.

      •  Disagree as to the die-hards (0+ / 0-)

        and you also forget the low info, low memory voters.

        For the die-hards, it's a personal bond with the Clintons, or at least Hillary.

        Enough triangulation, calculation & equivocation... regular politics won't do... so tired of bull that only the truth can provide relief - Molly Ivins on Hillary

        by Judgment at Nuremberg on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:02:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  More pgph breaks pls. eom (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Chi

    I know who Obama's veep will be. You can too!

    by slaney black on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:57:19 PM PDT

  •  Everyone is saying this (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Kitty

    Maureen Dowd wrote an article about this; a youtube video even popped up:

  •  Tar Heel state ... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    homoaffectional

    That would be North Carolina.  Not South Carolina.

    May seem nitpicky, but the Tar Heels have a big game in a few hours.

    Go Heels!

  •  How refreshing. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dotcommodity

    A topic that's never been diaried before.

    The Democratic party: nominating unelectable Presidential candidates since 1972. (inapplicable within 3 years of Watergate and to the man from Hope)

    by raatzie on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:10:53 PM PDT

  •  I think I see about Fl and MI. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Kitty

    Of course, if she was going to win it all by super Tuesday, she could afford to agree to the rules, but she never had intention of sticking to them. After she had the whole thing wrapped up, she would magnanimously arrange to seat the delegations which had voted for her anyway.

    •  That was going to Obama's plan, too (0+ / 0-)

      once he had it wrapped up....that was what the DNC assumed would happen when they decided to strip all (instead of half) of the delegates from those states.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:30:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Edit your diary (4+ / 0-)

    And insert carriage returns between each intended paragraph so that people don't have to read one solid block of type.

    Your analysis is flawed because it looks at the situation only from the standpoint of the DC handlers. It pays lip service to the ground game without displaying any understanding of what the ground game actually is.

    This is surprising, because the specifics of the ground game that Obama used began in 2004 with Dean and continued on with Kerry, and are well known. In fact, Obama's ground game has been a more capital-intensive version of Dean meetup viral organizing and the solid precinct work that Kerry did in Iowa, using the strength of existing party organizations.

    Obama's effort has been more capital-intensive than Dean's was, but it is still mostly a labor-intensive strategy. This makes it by necessity a "bottom-up" campaign, which involves and empowers many more people, at diffused levels.

    "Bottom-up" is antithetical to Penn and Wolfson and Williams, because it removes them from the center of things and reduces THEIR marketability for future campaigns.

    I shed no tears for them. But no matter. When this campaign ends, we will still have them to deal with on the talking head shows, just as we are forced to endure the odious Susan Estrich, the bimbo who put Dukakis in the tank, and Carville, Begala, and that lot.

    This campaign is dead, but they will keep hanging on, hoping against hope. They have become Bob and Mary Schindler, and everybody knows it but them.

    "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

    by Ivan on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:12:40 PM PDT

    •  I am going over the tactics, not the methods (0+ / 0-)

      I support Barack Obama, and I approved this message.

      by mlandman on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:19:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What's the dividing line? (0+ / 0-)

        Grunt volunteers on the ground use tactics, too. Calling them "methods" arbitrarily does not make them meaningless or irrelevant, even to a narrow discussion.

        Moreover, you can't treat the decisions made at the top of any campaign as if they exist in a vacuum. They don't. Sometimes (not always) the bottom drives the top. Certainly this has happened in my experience. But just because I operate at the street level does not mean I can safely ignore decisions made at the center of a national campaign.

        Thanks for inserting the carriage returns, though.

        "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

        by Ivan on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:32:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I see the tactics and goals to be the drivers... (0+ / 0-)

          as far as people who read/see the news are concerned. I will be in NC working for BO, but I know that the average voter sees only the media clips and results. They are blind to what actually happens on the ground.

          I support Barack Obama, and I approved this message.

          by mlandman on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:36:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Please do not be so quick (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            dotcommodity, bedir than average

            to so characterize the "average voter." Maybe I am biased because I live in a caucus state (WA). But my role as a party and campaign activist is largely educational, and I find that people are hungry to learn how to make the system work for them.

            If there is activity on the ground, people see at least a slice of it. Better yet if it involves their friends and neighbors, which of course we want it to. Then they have shared experience to work with.

            "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

            by Ivan on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:41:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I would say YOU are not typical (0+ / 0-)

              of the voting population. The ones I meet are only peripherally involved beyond voting, and only 50% even do that.

              I support Barack Obama, and I approved this message.

              by mlandman on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:49:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hell, I know I'M not typical! (0+ / 0-)

                And I'm not aware that I claimed to be. My point was that any contact on the ground is better than no contact, especially when it comes freom neighbors.

                Once contacted on that basis, people at least will respond and will engage, if only for a moment. We shouldn't be passing up any such opportunity.

                "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

                by Ivan on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 07:45:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  I did read your diary (0+ / 0-)

    although the initial hedge about "intelligent discourse" was unnecessary.

    It was kind of disjointed, though.  It seems as if first you argue that the Clinton team is highly professional, not delusional, and perhaps even deserving of respect.  Yet you acknowledge that Clinton's continued and extremely negative presence in this nomination contest is due to a fantasy of capturing the WH after helping to destroy Obama's chances this year.  If that's in fact what Team Clinton is thinking, delusional is too mild a word.

  •  realism has nothing to do with it (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Wisteacher

    if Obama wins the Presidency, she will get her next realistic shot in 2016, but more likely in 2020 or 2024. She will be 74 in 2020

    There is no reason to think that Hillary wouldn't run again in 2012 against Obama, an incumbent from her own party, just as Ted Kennedy did in 1980.

    There is even less reason to think that she wouldn't run in 2016 against the incumbent VP.

    H doesn't give a hoot about what's realistic. H and H's sycophants create their own reality and punish anyone who dissents from the talking points.

       H is the new W

  •  Please cite a single case (0+ / 0-)

    where a president served two terms and was succeeded by his vice-president serving two terms. Hasn't happened in the past century (if ever), is extremely unlikely to happen. If it was going to happen it should have happened in 1960, or 2000...interestingly enough, in both of those years the VP lost narrowly, likely due to a bit of fraud (dead folks voting in Chicago in 1960, dishonest election officials and judicial malfeasance at the highest level in 2000). But the future is not that easy to suss out...no matter who the next president is, events in the nation or the world could make it difficult to win a second term. Winning two terms and getting your VP elected for even one term is rare (Reagan is the only one I can think of).  

    "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

    by Alice in Florida on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:21:57 PM PDT

    •  Reagan not only served 2 terms and got his VP (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dotcommodity, MikePhoenix, shigeru

      elected; but his VP's son went on to serve 2 terms.  As much as I hate his politics, Reagan was arguabley the most influential person in American history.

    •  I am not sure (0+ / 0-)

      if the past is a good predictor of the future. News is spread and seen at an unprecedented rate. Even if the VP is not elected, they are greatly helped by a popular Pres pushing for them.
      Regardless of the VP, she will be 72 in 2016. Health issues are a concern at that point.

      I support Barack Obama, and I approved this message.

      by mlandman on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:26:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We haven't had that long a period of time (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mightymouse

      in which one party was so strong, for 16 years.

      BUT I do have an almost-answer to your question.  FDR died a few months after his inaugural, and his VP served the remainder of his term, and then went on to win.

      So you had a pres with 12 years and a few months, and then his (third) VP getting very nearly 2 full terms.

  •  This is her only shot (4+ / 0-)

    She has to stay in the race because of the business interests backing her.

    When this campaign finally dies, there is going to be a long line of angry people ready to take their chunk out of the Clintons.

    Frankly, it couldn't happen to a more deserving couple.

    In the meantime it could get down right scary as the desperation sets in.

    Should be fun to watch...

  •  few things (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    doinaheckuvanutjob

    I think you missed your audience.  This is better aimed at folks who haven't been following the race because it's a nice recap for them.  In fact, I'd recommend a retitling too, because 99% of it is a recap of who won what states and such.  This audience knows all that.

    I feel a little misled.  I read the diary to find a novel theory on why Clinton is staying in the race, and there's just a repeat of the much-discussed 2012 theory tacked on to the end.

    It's not a bad diary - but it would be better suited to inform people who want a recap who haven't been following closely, and would benefit from a retitling.

    Two other nitpicks.

    1. His name is Barack.  B-A-R-A-C-K.  Ehud Barak was Prime Minister of Israel.
    1. Tears came just prior to the final news cycle on the final day of NH.

    Calloused hand by calloused hand.

    by PocketNines on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:25:25 PM PDT

    •  post it where then? (0+ / 0-)

      ...and I will fix my spell checker.

      I support Barack Obama, and I approved this message.

      by mlandman on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:28:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not sure, I'm just saying you've missed (0+ / 0-)

        your audience by posting it here.  It's a good recap, but I would wager everyone who read it was aware that Hillary was labeled inevitable before the voting started, that she lost Iowa, and then saved her campaign in New Hampshire, then that there were only two major players after Feb 5 - Clinton and Obama, etc. etc.

        Your title frames at as insight into why Clinton continues in the face of overwhelmingly bad odds, and then just says, the 2012 theory.  But there's no particular insight as to why.  Just that she seems determined to win the presidency at all costs, and that's her best chance.  I felt let down at the end because it could have just been a comment on an open thread.  

        But then I realized, I am a high-information audience member as is anyone who reads here at least somewhat regularly.  So this diary wasn't aimed at me or them, and so it's not fair to judge it that way.  I mean, I agree with what you wrote.  We have all been following the contest results, we're all aware of the 2012 theory.  But to those who are not - i.e., non Daily Kos readers - this would be a good recap.

        Calloused hand by calloused hand.

        by PocketNines on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:52:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you come up with suggestions...email me (0+ / 0-)

          I will sign up and cross post. I have discussed this theory as i travel for work in airports, bars and the like. Most folks act like they have not thought about it, or the election deeply for that matter.

          I support Barack Obama, and I approved this message.

          by mlandman on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:57:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Absolutely! (0+ / 0-)

            I agree - I have seen the same thing.  There IS an audience for what you wrote, and like I said upon reflection I realized I didn't disagree with it.

            The difficulty is that the audience is the huge group of people who simply have a vague top-level view of the race, but they don't read blogs.  

            Incidentally, I agree with the 2012 theory, but it's as badly flawed from the Clinton perspective as the thoroughly non-starter nature of her ever winning the presidency was at all points, even before people knew Barack Obama existed.  You cannot win the presidency if half the country starts out loathing you (rationally or irrationally) and will never vote for you under any circumstances.  There's a deathwish pact of insanity many Dems entered into when that idea was first broached.  It'll even be worse going forward because a huge percentage of Dems will now refuse to put up with the notion of nominating her if she tries again.

            Calloused hand by calloused hand.

            by PocketNines on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:34:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  She isn't quitting (4+ / 0-)

    because this is her ONLY chance.

    2012? Come on!

    There's some good potential in the younger generation of the Democratic party (including female governors, I might add, who will bring that executive experience). And after four years of McCain, the hunger for change/new/different you see now is going to be just that much stronger while she'll be just that much more attached to the DC insider / old guard identity.

    And just how often have Democrats gone with a loser of a previous primary cycle (yes, there was Gore; but he was running from the VP spot when he was chosen)?

    If toast always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what happen if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it? -- Stephen Wright

    by jacortina on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:30:02 PM PDT

    •  Agreed. We'll have good (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dotcommodity, MikePhoenix

      choices again in four years.

    •  If McCain can win the nomination (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      after losing to Bush in 2000, Hillary can certainly win it in 2012 after losing it in 2008; especially when she has millions of women who have been fantasizing about a Hillary presidency since 1992. All she and Bill have to do is what they do best: Talk out of both sides of their mouth.  Call for party unity while at the same time continue to praise McCain's honorable record and great experience.  If they're smart they can build up McCain in a subtle enough way that most people wont catch on to what they're up to. Meanwhile they drag out the nomination fight to damage Obama.  It's actually quite brilliant in a sick way.

      •  Sure (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MikePhoenix

        Because McCain ran a campaign which (in the minds of many) cost his party the White House in 2000.

        Oh ... Wait a minute.

        You also have to ignore what I said about having OTHER strong possibilities (including women) for the nomination, the lack of of which absolutely helped McCain get the nomination this year. All you heard during 2007 was how UNenthusiastic the Republicans were about their choices.

        If toast always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what happen if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it? -- Stephen Wright

        by jacortina on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:55:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My two cents: (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MikePhoenix

    We have heard the siren calls of "he will only be a one-term prez," many times before. Most recently in 2000 and 1980 as posited by the dim bulbs at demo central command those years. Anyone who believes that McCain would be a one-termer is plain and simple, nuts.

    In addition anyone who believes the current crises will make it too difficult to govern and that the next prez will be a one termer needs to look to history and the examples of Lincoln and FDR.

    If Clinton and her team are as savvy as noted, they know this too.

    "The fact which the politician faces is merely that there is less honor among thieves than was supposed, and not the fact that they are thieves." Thoreau

    by shigeru on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:40:51 PM PDT

    •  If Clinton & her team are so savvy (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      doinaheckuvanutjob, shigeru

      they'd have won the nomination by now.

    •  No, the economy will tank McCain's 1st term (0+ / 0-)

      if he's elected. It will be very bad. And I think he'll find a way to please no one. That maverick streak of his is sometimes real, and it really ticks off his base, and will upset others who voted for him when he starts breaking promises and being inconsistent. Plus he's gauranteed to do at least one major bonehead decision, I'm not talking about Iraq or other bad policies, I'm referring to that rash side of McCain where he sometimes gets really committed to some course of action that's a bit rash. McCain-Fiengold also comes to mind-- something that's a good sell but turns out worse. McCain will not be a popular president. He will have better judgment and good sense, even more compassion than Bush (I can't imagine a Katrina on McCain's watch) but the sellout to the most vile elements of the Rethug infrastructure garauntees greater suffering, disaster, exploitation, and collapse of our country. He would bring more ruination to the country with more Bushian Rethug restructuring that is disastrous.

      Children in the U.S... detained [against] intl. & domestic standards." --Amnesty International

      by doinaheckuvanutjob on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:18:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Given recent history I respectfully disagree. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        doinaheckuvanutjob

        No point assuming that he would be a one-termer, no matter how bad. I have heard this at the start of most rethug eras, whether Reagan or Bush II and all that has happened is that we have had multi-term presidents.

        IMAO anyone who might be thinking of voting for McCain instead of the other demo, in the hopes that he would be a one-termer is silly or worse. If McCain is elected, we may as well get used to at least 8 more years of rethug rule. Likely more.

        "The fact which the politician faces is merely that there is less honor among thieves than was supposed, and not the fact that they are thieves." Thoreau

        by shigeru on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:00:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  the Clintons are egoists (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jimreyn, blueoasis, greenboy

    and that is why--unlike Edwards, Dodd, Biden, Richardson, Kucinich, Gravel, or for that matter Huckabee, Romney, Thompson, Paul, Giuliani--they continue to "soldier on."

    And Bill appears to be holding out for Pennsylvania (and as if that one state somehow suddenly makes HRC's chances so much better).

  •  They Will Not Go Quietly. Au contraire. (6+ / 0-)

    The picture that is emerging in the last couple of weeks is coming into focus.

    The Clintons and their minions have essentially declared war on anyone who would deny them the nomination, which they see as theirs, right and proper.

    I predict an escalation in smears against Obama, with anti-Semitism and being anti-Israel leading the charges.

    The ugliness we have seen will pale against what is to come. They are prepared to split the party. Indeed, I now believe that they intend to split the party.

    Winning in November is not their primary goal. Witness all the praise they heap on McCain, almost every day. The Clintons' priority is to destroy the upstart Obama, and consolidate their power. They are content with a McCain win, if necessary.

    Paid for by the Tirebiter For Political Solutions Committee, Sector R.

    by SicXitGM on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:46:02 PM PDT

  •  The Clintons (5+ / 0-)

      blew this campaign, not with arrogance, but with their inability to see through their own spin. They truly believed that Hillary was the inevitable nominee.

      Just like political rookies, who believe polls are accurate 8 months before an election, just like political veterans (Carville, Shrum et al), who believe that a strategy that wins once will win every time, the Clinton campaign simply did not prepare to run a serious primary campaign. They didn't believe they would have to.

      The collapse of Hillary's campaign will be the talk of American political legend in years to come. She was supposed to be unbeatable. She had the consultants who could win, she had the donors to pad her coffers, she had a compelling life story (Lawyer, First Lady, Senator), and yet