Where are all the damned, so-called Libertarians on FISA?

Kos has brought this up before, but it really is worth calling out the so-called "libertarians" and their complete and total absence during our FISA fight.  Perhaps more importantly, is looking back and taking a "lessons learned" as to why our two movements could not come together closer on this issue.

The liberal blogosphere has been all over this issue since the beginning, including the marvelous work of Emptywheel, the irreplaceable activism by Christy and Jane, and of course Glenn Greenwald who has made this, and for his readers, a personal crusade.  And Wired's Ryan Singel is a remarkable researcher and author.

But where are the libertarians on this?  Cato, on their front page today, don't have a single mention of FISA or telecom amnesty.  Perhaps Reason magazine is picking up the slack?  Again, not a word on FISA or what is about to happen.  The official Libertarian party blog?  The last update is from January 18th.

What could be a more "libertarian" issue that protecting the privacy of Americans to communicate without fear the government is listening in?  What could be more "libertarian" than preserving civil liberties and keeping the government out of our personal lives?  Why is this small, yet activist, strain of American politics basically mum on this issue?

This really should have been an opportunity to bring these people to our side.  This diary isn't meant as a slam against them, but instead a brainstorm for why we were not able to coalesce around an issue which should bridge our ideals and beliefs with theirs.

Why didn't this happen?

•  how are you going to bring people to your side

  after ridiculing them for months and months?

  by duha on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:34:45 AM PDT

  •  why is it OUR problem?

    So the self-styled libertarians are supposed to just ignore the FISA fight because they think we're mean to them?

    Geez, I'd hate to see how such a sorry bunch of wimps might react to, say, the new socialist government coming around to take away their guns and raise their taxes.

    by Leggy Starlitz on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:36:32 AM PDT

    •  they haven't ignored FISA

      by they aren't coming to dailykos for allies.

      by duha on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:48:35 AM PDT

      •  hardly

        As the diarist pointed out, the most well-known libertarian sites ARE ignoring FISA.

        by Leggy Starlitz on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:26:00 AM PDT

  •  Bringing up facts is not ridiculing

    I'm not slinging mud or calling names.  I'm asking questions and am open to the fact that my "Favorites" list is too narrow and maybe I missed something.  I just want to know why, if my perceptions on their lack of activism is true, this is the case.

    by awkawk on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:43:16 AM PDT

    •  I'm not talking about this diary as ridicule

      I'm talking about what has gone on in the front page posts as far as ridicule over the last several months.

      From the articles I've seen, the libertarian party is still taking strong stances against FISA, PATRIOT Act, etc.

      by duha on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:50:40 AM PDT

      •  Understood

        But I'd love to see the "articles I've seen".  Because the only time I read about it on Libertarian blogs is when they are called out about it.

        by awkawk on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:54:04 AM PDT

    •  there's a few recent ones

      At Reason : The Surveillance Scam, Why the Protect America Act Is a Bad Idea

      The official blog of the Libertarian Party has comments on the Real ID Act and FISA.

      Another Libertarian blogger: Libertarian Party sends letter to pro-FISA Democratic Senators

      Those off the first page of a Goggle search.  A lot of right-Lib sites have been commenting on FISA, torture, rendition, and so on, for months or years.  They've few sympathetic pols in Congress, those that are there need no nudging to oppose government abuse; do you see front pagers on DKOS telling Kucinich how he should vote re FISA?

      Most libertarians I know consider the Cato Institute to be libertarian in the same way as most Kossaics consider the DLC to be Progressive.

      I know that in the not very distant past one LP commenter received a lot of hate in the comments from what I assume were Democrats, simply because they pointed out that it was the Democrats leading the charge back in the 19902, what with CALEA, the CLIPPER chip idea, and other such nonsense, and that  (old style) conservatives and libertarians opposed those.

      The libertarian right has been undergoing changes similar to that of the Democrats in the 1980s and 1990s.  There's been an influx of people using the label while not adhering to the platform of the LP back in the 1970s; people stuck on just the tax issue.  But those aren't all the Libertarians around, just among the noisiest.

      I think a lot more might be gained by not repeating tired sayings like "A Libertarian is just..." and name calling, but instead working with them when interests overlap, and focusing on getting out our own views when there is no agreement.  Leave the attacks to the GOP, don't dirty your souls by imitating them.

      by wondering if on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:30:21 AM PDT

•  The Libertarian are busy

  balancing their checkbooks, as usual.
  There used to be a saying around the Texas Capitol: A Libertarian is a Republican who smokes marijuana.

  by NogodsnomastersMary on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:35:25 AM PDT

•  Most libertarians just care about one issue:

  lower taxes.  It's me, me, me.  As long as they have no evidence anyone's spying on them, it's irrelevant.  Because what happens to other people is unimportant.

  by Tracker on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:36:18 AM PDT

  •  You misspelled "legal marijuana"

    Here's an old article.

    Legal dope and legal machine guns.  Lower taxes are a distant 3rd.

    by Utahrd on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:38:05 AM PDT

•  direct conversations have convinced me-

  that "libertarians", to make a nutshell illustration here , are Republicans lacking in social disgraces needed to join the private golf and tennis clubs they most crave.

  by Abra Crabcakeya on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:37:43 AM PDT

•  If Libertarians really cared about these issues,

  they wouldn't vote Republican.  I've come to the conclusion that the modern Libertarian movement is wedged firmly under one or two of the three legs of the Gold/God/Guns stool.

  by NotablyZen on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:38:16 AM PDT

•  valid question

  I don't usually post here anymore, and I do consider myself a libertarian.  I voted for Ron Paul in my primary last month.

  Your question is a good one.  I've already contacted my Representative (lot of good that did) regarding FISA immunity, and I'm watching it closely.  I don't consider myself part of any blogosphere - libertarian or otherwise - but it is something they should be doing more on.

  Now - where are the damned "progressives" on the so-called War on Drugs?  I answered yours.

  by Bayern Munich on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:43:14 AM PDT

  •  Valid point

    The "war on drugs" has been going on for decades, and we're not in the midst of a major, generational, setback.

    But we're not completely void.

    by awkawk on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:52:48 AM PDT

    •  yeah

      Coalition politics, y'know?

      As far as the general election, it appears you guys have the numbers without us this time.  I guess that's good, as I'd prefer Clinton or Obama to McCain.  Although I wouldn't vote for any of them, and I'd prefer some dude pulled off the street at random to any of the three.  

      At any rate, your diary asks a legitimate question and I agree this is something the libertarian world should be paying more attention to.

      by Bayern Munich on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:57:57 AM PDT

•  Libertarian = Republican

  Whether the government is actively aiding the robber barons and the religious fundamentalists or merely does nothing to hinder them in the name of "freedom" and the "free market", the result is the same.

  by Visceral on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:43:40 AM PDT

•  They're busy getting hot for McCain

  because he said something mavericky. "See! We're not just lockstep Republicans!"

  by RickMassimo on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:44:19 AM PDT

•  Reason has weighed in

  if not today.

  EFF, while not explicitly libertarian, certainly leans, and has been at the forefront.

  by ben masel on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:44:51 AM PDT

•  overcome by fear and a simple mind

  It's easy. I can feel it when my tax bill goes up or when it gets harder for me to buy that AK-47, but I'll never know if my communications get monitored and a file is compiled on me (until I am in detention that is or maybe just refused a plane ticket purchase), so I'll concentrate on the tax issue and fight for my access to guns.

  by minorityusa on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:45:14 AM PDT

•  Sadly, many are part of the pants wetting brigade

  by balconesfault on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:47:02 AM PDT

•  the grassroots left

  is getting played like an instrument on this one. they are going to capitulate, no questions asked.

  by rcnewton on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:48:28 AM PDT

•  Libertarian opposes Protect America Act

  Statement of Ron Paul on H.R. 5104

  A bill to extend the Protect America Act of 2007 for 30 Days

  30 January 2008  

  Rep. Ron Paul, M.D.

  Madame Speaker, I rise in opposition to the extension of the Protect America Act of 2007 because the underlying legislation violates the US Constitution.

  The mis-named Protect America Act allows the US government to monitor telephone calls and other electronic communications of American citizens without a warrant. This clearly violates the Fourth Amendment, which states:

  "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

  The Protect America Act sidelines the FISA Court system and places authority over foreign surveillance in the director of national intelligence and the attorney general with little if any oversight. While proponents of this legislation have argued that the monitoring of American citizens would still require a court-issued warrant, the bill only requires that subjects be "reasonably believed to be outside the United States ." Further, it does not provide for the Fourth Amendment protection of American citizens if they happen to be on the other end of the electronic communication where the subject of surveillance is a non-citizen overseas.

  http://www.house.gov/...

  So, here is eveidence of a (the most?) prominent liberatrian, and his opposition to the Protect America Act.

  Most people on this site ridicule Ron Paul and his supporters.  Be that as it may, Paul opposes the act.

  by science first on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:12:42 AM PDT

  •  The point is activism, not support

    Where is the outreach?  The participation by the boots on the ground to have a hand in the game?  Statements by Paul are valuable and not overlooked, but the point is we need the voices of his followers.

    by awkawk on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:14:35 AM PDT

    •  I get 131 hits on Reason mag for FISA+warrant.

      Not bad.

      by burrow owl on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:21:58 AM PDT

    •  Gathering support

      but the point is we need the voices of his followers.

      You mean the "Paultards" and the "Paulbots", as his supporters are frequently termed on this site?

      Some aphorism comes to mind about the ease of attracting with honey rather than vinegar.

      The folks at Reason have been outspoken against Protect America Act.
      http://www.reason.com/...

      by science first on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:33:40 AM PDT

•  If it isn't flat tax, they don't care

  I come to the conclusion that the majority of Libertarians only care about low taxes.  They are not true to entire Libertarian vision.  That's why they are not engaged on civil liberty issues.

  by noofsh on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:33:12 AM PDT

•  Actually, FISA isn't a very libertarian issue.

  A great number of libertarians are strict constructionists when it comes to the constitution, and thus regard FISA (the law) as an unconstitutional restraint on the President's foreign surveillance power.

  It's kind of like the War Powers Resolution that way.

  Don't assume that libertarian = automatically against any kind of government surveillance.

  by RyoCokey on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:47:17 AM PDT

•  libertarian - likely as divorced from meaning

  of words as liberal and conservative have become.
  Selfish paranoids , socialists , and fascist dungbeetles more accurate , respectively.

  by Abra Crabcakeya on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:55:55 AM PDT

•  Curse you for making me log in...

  :P

  Seriously, though, I'm registed as a Libertarian in the state of California, but I realise that progressives and libertarians have a lot more in common than some on both sides may realise. That's why I lurk here on DailyKos.

  Your problem is that you're looking at the wrong sites. You want a site that's been covering FISA since 2001 and has a huge population of libertarians? Try Slashdot. The Politics and YRO (Your Rights Online) sections cover every development.

  Slashdot

  The articles regarding FISA and other civil rights incursions typically get hundreds of interesting, insightful, and informative comments. They're sometimes better than the articles are, thanks to the sophisticated, democratic moderation system.

  I've been tending away from big-L Libertarianism lately - the free market is a rather grotesque gospel to proclaim these days.

  by Jacob Bartle on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:57:24 AM PDT