Daily Kos

Yes, We Can Build a Moat

Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:28:54 AM PDT

I've heard twice now Obama say that we can't build a moat around America. He says we should "embrace globalization" and that our workers "can compete".

So it looks like the change that Obama is advocating doesn't much include trade policy. This is to be expected. I still want him to win.

But I would like to point out that if there is one country in the world that could build a protectionist moat around its borders, the US is it. And this is important because it goes to the lie that has been propagated for decades.

We hear it all the time: the US economy cannot survive protectionist trade policies. You hear it from politicians, leaders of trade groups, of course, and you hear it obedient economists - the stupidest single group of individuals on Earth.

But the fact is, the US could completely cut off all trade with the rest of the world and not only survive, but be better off for it - that is, after the initial shock it would cause the global economy.

The history of globalization is instructive here. About a century ago a bunch of uber-wealthy business men, mostly British, saw sovereignty as an impediment to their ability to own the world. They formed little groups to plot and scheme how they could globalize the economies of nations so their capital and goods could flow freely back to their banks in London and New York and Geneva. So pervasive was their influence, sparing no expense even to the point of erecting an entire universityto park their globalist views, that it is rare to even see debate on the subject anymore.

One thing however, that is often missed in this almost secret history of the 20th Century - they got the idea from the US. Many will not remember but the United States wasn't always called that. We used to call it these United States. Plural. And this gets back to our moat.

What these British business men saw in those United States was David Ricardo's wet dream - a tariff free trade zone. Everything you could want from a truly globalized world was always here in these United States. And Europe wanted what we had.

So this sounds like I'm using the US, with its tariff free interstate commerce as a model for why globalization is good right. Not quite. The key word is sovereignty. Our United States are also under a common federal legal framework. A common currency. Common language, up until recently.

We could trade with ourselves exclusively. We would be incredibly prosperous in doing so, with each state representing a country with its own factors of production. We sit on the cream of the crop in world's resources - a benefit most countries do not share. And we have one of the best trained work forces on the planet - although that is changing rapidly.

So the US could be a self-contained economy, no problem. But I'm not advocating that. I just believe we need to stop the lying about trade. And the idea that the US is dependent on free trade to survive is a lie. Large trans-national corporations are dependent on "free trade" for their excessive profits. But not the US economy, and certainly not labor.

And this brings me to my final point. What exactly is "labor" anyway. We've done our country a severe disservice by defining labor in strictly economic terms. I said economists were about the stupidest group of human beings on Earth. This is one of the reasons why.

As progressives, and as Democrats, we have to start reconnecting labor with society. And it's easy to do. When you see a company move overseas or to Mexico, look at what it really does to American society. This isn't just about labor or wages. This is about life.

The manufacturing exodus of the last 40 years has destroyed American society. It has destroyed families, schools, communities.

The jackals of free market capitalism, and the national media they control, have done a smashup job of selling this exodus as inevitable. And they've done quite well at concealing the real consequences from millions of American television viewers.

But only the economics of stupidity decouples such changes to the economy from the real life effects of our citizens. They dress it up in corporate speak like labor mobility instead of calling it what it is - societal devastation.

The catchy new phrase of the nineties was portability where workers were "flexible" and could up and move to Seattle on a dime. I'm sorry, but only a PR firm like Mark Penn's could come up with this shit. This is not how human society works. Families are not portable. They are connected to communities. They have friends, churches, schools. Children involved in plays, music recitals, sports teams.

But not anymore. Now we have portable families. Credit card communities, and failing society. It is not a coincidence. The degree to which we have allowed a bunch of greedy sacks to destroy American lives, the American way of life, with their economics of greed and stupidity cannot be overstated. We've been sold a bill of goods. Duped.

In fact, the selling of free trade may be the biggest con ever played on a gullible nation. And what we as Americans have to do is demand that the economy serve humanity and not the other way around. And we have to stop listening to idiot economists - and that includes Paul Krugman who in a column less than a year ago couldn't even decide if Americans are worse off than they were 40 years ago. And we have to stop listening to idiot amateurs on blogs who feel safe echoing the theories of Ricardo and Smith because that's what they learned from their idiot economics professors.

Our economics needs to be based on results. Not theories. And those results need to be stable societies, stable communities and stable families. Not corporate profits.

So no, it's not the economy, stupid. It's life. Stupid.

Tags: Class War, neoliberalism, free trade (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 89 comments

  •  can we build the mote just around Florida? (0+ / 0-)

    that'd work for me.

  •  So you see no difference between (0+ / 0-)

    "Free Trade" which bleeds jobs out of the country while corporate profits soar and "Fair Trade" which has environmental and labors standards leveling the field and dressing the wound and that with proper tax incentives is a transfusion that revives the economy?

  •  we consume too much (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ClaudeB, tiggers thotful spot

    of too many things. especially commodities like say, oil. we need the imports.

    •  What????? If We Still Get the "Things" Then We (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Fabian

      still burn the oil. We just burn it over there.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:44:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  my point (0+ / 0-)

        was that we would have to give up all of those things. in addition the rest of the world is not sitting idly by in terms of intellectual property and development. it might be tough to keep up tech wise without the benefit of a global brain base on which to draw.

        •  Kind of. (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Tinfoil Hat, justCal, lemming22, terabytes

          Immigration is still a great way to attract great talent.

          My husband is in his 40s.  He still has his job, unlike 95% of his coworkers - their jobs were outsourced.  Not to superior talent overseas, but lower wages.  He still has his job because he is in the 95th plus percentile in terms of talent and productivity.  

          Now think about that.  Think about what it means that in order to hold onto your job, that you need to be not just competent, not just good, not just excellent, but major league, world class, in the top five percent.

          How many of us are in the top five percent?  And what happened to the other ninety five percent?  That outsourcing wasn't just one company in that industry, it was the entire industry.  So those ninety five percent didn't just make an easy horizontal move from one employer to the next.  The majority made a vertical move - downwards.

          Now imagine that effect, spread out over industry after industry and the ripple effects throughout the economy.  Someone talked about us not being able to "get" stuff.  At the rate we are going, we won't be able to get stuff, because we won't have the euros to buy it.

          Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

          by Fabian on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 02:57:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  True on the oil (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Fabian

      Over the last 60-80 years we have redesigned our entire transportation infrastructure around cheap oil. We had oil, but we began to run out back in the early Seventies.

      I hope you're not thinking that somehow negates my point.

      •  that we have been screwed over by trade? (0+ / 0-)

        no i pretty much agree on that. but we cant suddenly shift to total isolation. we dont have the resources to do that. not to mention how we could not retool to no longer depend on the cheap labor instantly.

        •  Yeah but, (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Fabian, justCal, terabytes

          I clearly said in the diary that I wasn't advocating isolationism. My point was that not only could we do it, even without the oil, we would probably be better off eventually.

          But you're right, it would require a transition, perhaps two decades.

          What I am advocating is protectionist trade policies. Not isolationism. Despite the propaganda, our trade policies, and trade agreements are already protectionist. They just don't protect Americans or our way of life. They protect multinationals.

          Out of all the lies and misdirection of the corporate, establishment controlled media, this is the biggest and most pervasive.

          •  Let me guess ..... (0+ / 0-)

            You have a white collar job that has nothing to do with manufacturing or engineering, right?

            Some industries - most high-tech industries - are global in nature, infrastructure and supply chain, and no single country has the resources to produce the products alone.

            Furthermore, in many industries, critical parts and materials are produced by a handfull of factories, as few as 1 or 2, and some of these factories cost Billions to capitalize (a typical semiconductor or flat panel display fab costs in the range of 2-6 Billion).

            And then there are the manufacturing tools and and software, including IP from a multitude of owners.

            And then the strategic materials from around the globe.

            And the oil.

            And, and, and ....

            Sorry pal, it's not really possible.

            In fact, nations have been trading as long as they have exisited, and before that, tribes and individuals traded.

            Your fragile, artificial concept sovernty is not and has never been more than a shell.

            There's only one choice, get better at compeating.

            You are wrong and Obama is right.

            When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

            by koNko on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:47:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Guessing is not your strong point either, I guess (0+ / 0-)

              I already said in my diary I'm not advocating building a moat. And even if I were, your circular logic would not persuade.

              As for your characterization of American sovereignty as a shell, all I can say is go back to whatever communist country you came from.

              People died for American sovereignty. Here in the US, we call it the Revolution. And we call them The Founders. We also have a constitution. We take it pretty seriously too.

              Now, I'm sure in your globalist wet dreams, Unicorp Inc. will one day govern the world. But it won't govern the US any time soon. So while your enjoying our country, get used to it.

              Our Founders didn't create a "shell". They created a sovereign state, under the constitution and the rule of law.  

              •  Now you're psycic, eh? (0+ / 0-)

                Unfortunately, I was unaware that I'm a globalist working for Unicorp and having wet dreams, but thanks for setting me streight on that, I'm felling much better about my working hours now.

                While we're on the subject of me, can you tell me exactly which team who will win the NBA Playoffs next year? Lost my ass betting last time.

                Sovernty is a legal concept, not an absolute or tangible thing and the behaviour of multinational corporations proves that. In fact, the power of multinational coorporations often escapes the bounds of sovernty and that is part of the problem.

                Of course, simply because you say so I must be advocating rather the observing or criticizing it, because you are so certian, absolute and all-powerful yourself.

                Polite Suggestion: a combination of Ridalin and Thorazine may help.

                That failing, try a tongue depressor or a wet rag.

                When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

                by koNko on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:12:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Yep this is the number one problem (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Fabian, Psychotronicman

      If we had manufacturing here we would still depend on raw materials from elsewhere especially for energy.

      Our cities are designed around gas-guzzling cars and long commutes (except for NYC and a handful of other places where you might be able to live without a car)

      Ultimately the crisis that global capitalism has managed to avoid dealing with (thanks to the indebted American consumer) is that wage arbitrage results in almost everything being made by people who cannot really afford to buy it. Like the typical designer clothes you might find at a trendy store at the mall -- undoubtedly put together by people who don't make enough in a week to buy one of the things they make. Furthermore, subsidized (and insanely non-ecological) agriculture undercuts the world's billion small farmers, turning them all into migrant workers. It's a disastrous, unsustainable, insanely nutty path we're on. But it's been very profitable for financiers, who run the world.

  •  I remember in college a zillion years ... (4+ / 0-)

    ...ago when I first encountered "comparative advantage" in my economics classes (of which my major required too many). And I thought, something about this doesn't ring true. It was the first of many economic ideas that didn't ring true.

    I would buy the whole globalization argument if there were guarantees - real guarantees - to deal with the displacement and destruction during the transition period from where we are today until that day when the whole planet is one giant, tariff-free market. Protection for those who lose their jobs, for standard of living, for the environment, for health and safety.

    But, as we know too well, that's not the goal of corporadoes. Rather they seek to make Earth into one giant Wal-mart.

    A fine rant, TocqueDeville, and one I very much agree with.

    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

    by Meteor Blades on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:48:56 AM PDT

    •  Isn't the answer obvious? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Fabian

      Protection for those who lose their jobs, for standard of living, for the environment, for health and safety.

      But, as we know too well, that's not the goal of corporadoes. Rather they seek to make Earth into one giant Wal-mart.

      Since the government is the entity that establishes the trade policies, why not look to the government to offset those effects? They are, after all, doing it to help corporations with the (theoretical) intention of helping the citizenry down the road, so wouldn't government be the right entity to look to to protect the citizenry in the interim?

      Yeah, I know, Bush, Republicans, Walmart, yadda, but really, wouldn't that be how it should get done?

      -6.00, -7.03
      Obama '08

      by johnsonwax on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 01:06:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks MB (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cjallen, geodemographics

      Yeah, I've given up on the idea that we can make globalization work. The players are far too corrupt to reel in. The system is way to centralized with the Wall Street few having way to much power. And then there's this.

      How long can we keep growing the economy? This is thumbs up Bill Clinton babble but at some point you have to realize that continued growth is unsustainable.

       title=

      Will we grow until the section outlined covers the whole continent? I mean, look at that. I outlined what used to be pristine rainforest. Now it's crops.

      I'm serious about a new economy based on stable lives instead of growing profits.

  •  The economy would suffer. (0+ / 0-)

    Here's the thing. We've got reasonably low unemployment, so the number of jobs isn't really the issue. It's the quality of the jobs. But we also have a ton of money in the economy.

    We're suffering because the trade policies which are hurting the low-end of the labor pool are making the high end wealthy. If we reverse those policies, the guys at the top lose more than the guys at the bottom gain. In other words, we're better off with free trade and just taxing the shit out of the guys at the top and supporting the people at the bottom that are hurt by this. Collectively, we come out ahead if we do that.

    The economists are right on trade as it relates to GDP. We just need to have a tax policy that counterbalances the trade policy.

    -6.00, -7.03
    Obama '08

    by johnsonwax on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 01:01:53 AM PDT

  •  No you can't build a moat. (0+ / 0-)

    1. Prices will go up.
    2. We would have less competition among the products we buy
    3. We will have less inovation and new ideas.

    If you want stability than you are asking for socialist society. There has not been one example of this working. Second are economys is not devestated it is going through a transitional phase. We are going to a more knowledge based economy.  

    •  So much bullshit (0+ / 0-)

      So few words. Good job.

      •  well (0+ / 0-)

        If you can counter my words with logic or examples I would love to hear them.
      •  Not quite. (0+ / 0-)

        I grew-up in a communist country and although some aspects of life were good (everyone poor, so no rampant consumerism and more sense of community) the stagnation also caused some people to be extra-extra poor and starve to death.

        What would be less bullshit, would be for you to give up all the luxuries you have including access to this website, and to start your own agricultural commune, and to make that work. Once you get off the land, collectivism becomes less fair and there's a choice to make it better, let it be or go back to the land.

        I think we can make things better. I work on that.

        When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

        by koNko on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 04:01:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Strawmen (0+ / 0-)

      1. Prices will go up? A bit, but so will wages, so that's  a no-op.
      1. Less competition?  Jesus Christ, how many different types of toothpaste  or peanut butter does a society need?
      1. Less innovation/ideas? America's never had a scarcity of innovation and new ideas, regardless of how "protectionist" or "free" our trade policies have been.
      •  hmm (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Psychotronicman
        1. Prices will go up faster than wages. My opinion but I granted I could be wrong on this

        2. Toothpaste and peanutbutter are commodity products. Think of something like cell phones and cars.

        3. Japan car companies developed Hybrid Cars before American car companies.

    •  We are going towards a non fossil fuel (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      terabytes, eparrot

      economy...in what - fifty years, a century?

      It's going to happen.  The real question is HOW it will happen.  Crash or gentle landing.  Right now, we are opting for the crash.

      Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

      by Fabian on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:03:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no choice but the crash (0+ / 0-)

        The power structure will not give up without a fight to the death.  and it's not just as relates to fossil fuels.  It relates strongly to America's economic outlook in general.  Everyone bemoans the loss of manufacturing jobs, but the bottom line is that almost everywhere else in the world can do it cheaper.  With the way information moves in the 21st century, how long  will it be before the critical mass is reached of people unwilling to let Americans live at such a higher standard of living.  Note that to some extent Europe is in the same boat as us.

        The shit is going to hit the fan.  Not next year, probably not even next decade, but I don't see any other way out.

        Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

        by eparrot on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:43:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then the real solution is (0+ / 0-)

          that we need to raise everyone up to our standard of living, rather than lower our standard of living to meet other people.  

          There is a great quote, by Deng Xiaoping, where he says "we can spread poverty, or we can spread wealth"

          We need to be spreading wealth, to raise everybody's living standard up.  Thats the solution.  

          We can do that, and deal with the issues raised by the ending of fossil fuels, if we look beyond the crash or gentle landing models.  If we choose to invest in off-planet resources.

          But that is a decision we need to make.  And a decision that requires investment and action.

          •  Wake Me Up (0+ / 0-)

            Then the real solution is that we need to raise everyone up to our standard of living, rather than lower our standard of living to meet other people

            When you figure out where to get the fresh water and the oil.

            And a decision that requires investment and action.

            And in typical 'Post Democrat' fashion you and yours have pushed, and will push, for a balls out policy on more 'free trade' while the 'investment and action' always seems to come 'tomorrow'.

            Kinda' like Senator Obama's very vocal support for more H1B and L1 guest-worker visas, yet there seems to be no call from Senator Obama for any incentives to fill the Senator's so-called 'high tech worker shortage'. A 'high tech worker shortage' which many studies claim does not exist to begin with.

            If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:48:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  *Shake Shake Shake* (0+ / 0-)

              Its time to get up, right now.  The key to both of those is energy.  Consider this point, for getting the oil.  And a similar situation can be applied to clean water.  The key is cheap, clean energy.  And the solution to that is off-planet resources, specifically, things like Space Based Solar Power, and microgravity manufacturing.  

              And, you are assuming that I agree with the idea of all free trade, all the time.  I don't.  I just don't see any way for us to realistically withdraw, and become a self-sufficient country - no country really is these days.  

              We need to be pushing for other nations to develop their national institutes, as well.  Things like fair trade, and recognition of unions, would go a long way to doing this.  That is part of the reason that I believe in nation building and interventionism.  As I said up thread, I know they aren't popular here, but I believe we have a duty to help people.

              The point is, part of the solution is finding something other than the zero-sum game we have been stuck with (which has screwed a lot of families).  We need a positive sum game, and between a combination of off-planet resource investment, and pushing other countries to develop their national institutions, we can make globalization work for us.  

              •  I wonder (0+ / 0-)

                Consider this point, for getting the oil.

                Given that you seem to be interested in technology and space, do you know where plastics come from?

                Do you know the only alternative to producing plastics beyond that technology which is used today?

                Do you have any idea when you look around you what impact fossil fuels has on everything your eyes touch upon?

                Unfortunately I have had to take too many chemistry and engineering classes to not fully understand the answers to these questions.

                I simply wonder what level of understanding you might have of these issues.

                Things like fair trade

                'Fair Trade' is a bullshit myth. Simply because Senator Obama makes the statement that 'labor protections' and 'environmental protections' will 'put American workers on a level playing field' with workers in Peru that make nine dollars a day, it does not make it so. 'Free Trade' 'works' because third world labor is cheaper than first world labor. In fact 'free trade' 'works' so well that it is now unfeasible to repair most of what American 'consumers' buy, so we just throw it away and buy another, and all of the 'fair trade' in the world is not going to change that.

                If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                by superscalar on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 01:18:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I have a very good level (0+ / 0-)

                  of understanding.  I don't know quite how you'd like me to demonstrate it, but I have a very good understanding.  I will say, that with cheap energy and power, we can back engineer the oil, from the CO2 in the atmosphere, to be used both in cars and in products.  Studying aerospace engineering, and have a strong interest in policy, you come to appricate where technology comes into play, and big part of that technology comes in the form of plastics, energy production, and various other oil derivative items.

                  Secondly, why do you assuming I am an Obama supporter?  If its because of the sig line, I suggest you click it and read it, before making that assumption - in actual fact, I am largely agnostic as to who will be president.  

                  But the push for fair trade in business, and creating national institutions in other countries, and yes, being prepared for necassary interventionism, is how to address this.  You can't do it by just declaring it gone, or by fiat and forcing US protectionist policies - you have to engage and work with a variety of people, organizations, businesses, countries, and basically everybody.  

            •  there is a high tech worker shortage (0+ / 0-)

              I can't speak to the rest of your comment, but there definitely is a major need for high tech workers - it's my field and I see it all the time.  The problem is that the new technologies and the increasing pace of business requires people with both the aptitude and training to do a good job.  No longer are companies looking for the pre-Y2K consultant with certain specific skill sets, they need people who simply are talented, trained, and experienced.  And with the drop in students enrolling in technical fields in the 1990's (and I am not talking 9 month ITT Tech programs here), we are now facing that shortage.

              My wife is a social worker and I often reflect that I could not do her job with any amount of training.  It simply is not where I am talented.  Likewise, most people cannot do the jobs that we need done and many who can simply are not going into those fields.  By spreading the search for talent to other countries, it's not that they are better than us, but we simply increase the size of the pool.  And yes, they are cheaper and that is certainly one reason why businesses push for more visas.  But there is a real shortage of talented as opposed to adequate technical people.

              Now, I don't believe the solution really is to grant more visas.  The solution is for companies to stop taking the easy way out and to work together to nurture programs at universities.  And also for new technology to finally reach the point where implementation does not require the kind of serious expertise it requires now.  But to suggest there isn't a shortage is ridiculous.

              Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

              by eparrot on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 05:03:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's my field as well (0+ / 0-)

                I can't speak to the rest of your comment, but there definitely is a major need for high tech workers - it's my field and I see it all the time

                One of my degrees is in electrical engineering. My emphasis while at university was computer hardware engineering, but I was hired out of university to consult to a power company here in Southern California and designed a front end UI and database back end to run a federal government super efficient refrigerator rebate program. I have written everything from printer drivers to a production research database for a major Hollywood studio. I write across about seven different software languages and three different operating systems.

                But to suggest there isn't a shortage is ridiculous

                A question then, because I do suggest that there is no 'shortage', and it is not only I who makes this suggestion, the likes of Duke University make the same claim. What I think that you mean to say is that there is a shortage at the wages that are being offered.

                However, suppose that there was a 'shortage of high-tech workers', and there has been a 'shortage of high-tech workers' since at least 1999.

                Why has nothing been done to mitigate this 'shortage' beyond the call for more H1B visas?

                That is to say, if business truly was experiencing a shortage of high tech workers, don't you think that business would have taken it upon themselves to do something about it?

                Don't you believe that government, acting on behalf of its citizenry and its businesses, would have done something about it?

                Senator Obama and Senator Clinton have both suggested that there is a 'shortage of high-tech workers' and have both supported an increase in the number of H1B visas, a guest-worker visa program in which historically more than 50% of the visa holders were Indian and had no more than a bachelors degree, yet neither of them have ever offered any legislation to mitigate this supposed 'shortage' or incentivize STEM careers for college students.

                Name me one thing that either business or government has done to incentivize a STEM education since 1999. At point we can begin to discuss why Intel is laying engineers off at the same time they are lobbying for more H1B visas, and why average salaries have been dropping for STEM professionals since 2001.

                If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                by superscalar on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:04:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  interesting points (0+ / 0-)

                  I stand by my statement that there is a shortage.  There simply are not enough truly talented and/or experienced people out there, at least in software and web development.

                  As for average salaries, I would say that they have been dropping because companies are hiring either not top quality workers or hiring foreigners.  But the statistic is misleading because for one, Y2K and the dot coms arbitrarily drove salaries up from 1995-2000.  But more importantly, neither myself nor any real quality developer I know is making less money now unless by choice.  Salaries are dropping because the lesser employees are being weeded out along with importing top talent from other places who will do it cheaper.

                  And I do understand that that is one of your main points.  I totally agree that the shortage is related to wages at its core.  And the reason no one has pushed to improve it is because the corporations can do it cheaper with H1-B visa holders.

                  I still don't think that this contradicts my main point - that there is a shortage. It may be self-inflicted, but it's still there.  Your reply to my comment addressed the point a lot more directly by going to the reasons for the shortage rather.

                  As for Intel, i don't know.  All I know is what I see when I look at jobs that I would be interested in and how companies I have been involved with handle talented developers.  They have serious trouble finding enough good ones, especially ones who are more than just a resume and a brain without actually being good employees as well.

                  Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

                  by eparrot on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 01:21:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  I have a question for you... if you don't mind (0+ / 0-)

    Do you have any background, education or experience in economics?  I'm not being snarky at all!

    Everytime I hear Obama say "we can't build a moat", I think to myself maybe we should.

    However, I then consider the fact that I have no background, education or experience in economics. I keep thinking how I would love to hear someone argue for the moat theory.  I'd like to hear a few pros & cons for the moat theory.  I'd actually like to see what we might learn from some fancy economic models.

    I can't help thinking, would I be terribly worse off if I couldn't purchase all of the insanely cheap crap that is cluttering up my house.  

    Maybe in some ways less could be more.  Any good book suggestions?  

    •  An example would be your life (0+ / 0-)

      Do you own a car, most of the gas comes from overseas.

      Do you like fruits and vegetables that aren't native to America?

      Look at the goods in your home how many are made in the US?

      •  So then (0+ / 0-)

        I get the gas issue.

        I get the fruits and veggy's thing

        However, many years ago the things in most of our homes were in fact made in the USA.  Did it not work well for previous generations?

        •  What generation would you like to go back to (0+ / 0-)

          1. The generation that own slaves
          2. The generation where women were not allow to vote
          3. The generation of Jim crow.

          All of these things have profound effect on our economy. The good ol days wasn't always so good.

          Now we can have policies that negate the negative effects of globalization, but the net effect on the US has been very positive.

          •  Sorry Adam... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Fabian

            I'm really interested in sharing ideas with someone who isn't as nasty and snarky as you seem to be tonight.

            I'm actually hoping to learn while reading dkos diaries.  I'm not interested in being belittled.

            Goodbye

            •  That isn't snark (0+ / 0-)

              I'm trying to make a point when you talk about past generations you can't pick and choose the good and leave the bad. Social issues have a profound effect on our economy. Women entering the workforce has a profound effect on the economy. Anti-Discrimination laws have an effect on the economy. We have to look at the whole picture and how it effected the economy that we had in that period of time.

              The truth of the matter is their are many manufacturing jobs coming to America, but they are going to southern states. Companies are scared of Union states. States like Ohio and Michigan need to address these companies concerns. I'm from Ohio and I saw how hard we would lobby for companies to build factories in Ohio.

              The US is a the worlds only super power. I believe it is our responsibility to lead. I also believe that through policies such as re-education we can get the people in Michigan and Ohio back to work.

              •  What about the aaffects of (0+ / 0-)

                having a frontier to invest in?  Why not consider that as part of the solution?

                •  Why argue with this guy (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Fabian, cjallen, eparrot

                  if you're not going to call him on his lies and bullshit.

                  There aren't "many manufacturing jobs coming to America." And companies aren't scared of "Union states." This is a joke.

                  Companies are scared of American wages, health care benefits, OSHA standards, social security, workers comp.

                  This guy hasn't said anything yet that you don't get from Fox News.  

                  •  Well, first (0+ / 0-)

                    I wasn't arguing with him.  you might be mistaking me for blueocean.  I don't actually totally disagree with him, nor do I totally disagree with you.

                    I'd argue that what we need to do a find a third way, that puts everyone to work.  

                    You can't outsource if everyone there is busy.

                  •  New plants by asian car company (0+ / 0-)

                    Toyota opens new factory in Texas 11/16/2006

                    Hyundai opens new factory in Alabama
                    05/21/2005

                    Honda has nonunion factory in both Ohio and Indiana

                    •  And Nissan in TN (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Fabian

                      You said many. Your point was that, 'if the truth be told, we aren't actually hemhorraging manufacturing jobs, we're actually gaining them.'

                      That was the gist of your comment. Which, of course, is bullshit.

                      My last comment to you. Go sell your right wing talking points to someone else.

                      •  He lives in Ohio too. (0+ / 0-)

                        So maybe he knows how many manufacturing jobs Ohio lost over the past seven years.  I'm too fuzzy to search right now, but it is a staggering number.

                        Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

                        by Fabian on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:09:39 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  So what should those states do? (0+ / 0-)

                Pass right to work laws?  Rather, we should break them in the Southern states.  EFCA should do a lot for that.

                •  I'm not sure (0+ / 0-)

                  But you saw what happen to the Detroit automakers. Unions had a part to pay in the downfall of these companies.

                  In full disclosure I'm anti-union except for public employees. However one of the things we can do is get universal healthcare past. So we aren't burdent companies with this.

                  I don't know enough about EFCA to know if companies would leave because of it. I do know that Honda is very much anti-union and would probably move jobs back to Asia if they are forced to have unionized plants in America.

                  •  unrealistic (0+ / 0-)

                    The reason we lose manufacturing jobs is because:

                    1.the American worker is no better or worse than workers in any other country

                    2.The American worker has to be paid more - not because of unions but because of our standard of living - than workers in most countries (Europe excepted).

                    Simple free market supply and demand at work here.  And it will never change until we can add value that others can't (besides being closer to the point of consumption) or until it does not cost as much to live an "average" life in the U.S.

                    The unions may have protected middle class and upper middle class salaries, but they are now competing directly with people who make less than the minimum wage.  And it's getting worse.  Sure, an immediate removal of private sector unions and immediate nationalization of health care would slow the bleeding.  But you'd still be competing with people who make only a few dollars a day.

                    this change is going to continue to be painful and probably violent over the next fifty years.  No one's gonna get elected saying that, but I have yet to see any remotely convincing plans about how to have it happen differently.  This was the inevitable result of U.S. economic and foreign policy over the past fifty years.

                    Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

                    by eparrot on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:56:23 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  You are working with false assumptions. (0+ / 0-)

              However, many years ago the things in most of our homes were in fact made in the USA.  Did it not work well for previous generations?

              At least since the Industrial Revolution, and certianly since the post war period, the content of many industrial products, particularly electronics, have depended on materials, parts and labour from the world.

              The fact this was invisible to you, the consumer, did not change the facts.

              The solution is to change laws and institute rational industrial and trade policies that promote reindustrialization where possible (and it is), and to solve the problem of tax evasion by large corporations.

              On a practical level, the concept of a moat simply doesn't work and hasn't for more than a century.

              When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

              by koNko on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 04:26:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nuance isn't your strong point is it (0+ / 0-)

                Let me repeat. I am not advocating we build a moat. I am saying that out of all the nations on Earth, the US is one of the ones that could get away with it.

                And, again, the reason I make that point is to rebut the lie that the US is dependent on trade for our economic survival. We are not, with the exception of oil. We could survive on our own oil for a pretty short period of time. Not enough.

                I deliberately left the oil problem out of my diary because it's a very specific problem. And because it is irrelevant to the point I was making - which is, I'll repeat again, that the free trade mantra of the economic right is a lie.

                We do import many resources, minerals etc. But we don't have to. We could make everything we need from US sources. But again, since I'm not advocating building a moat, it's a moot point.

                •  Diplomacy and careful reading are not yours. (0+ / 0-)

                  Boorishness and self-righteousness may be.

                  You are such a rude person I wonder why I bother, but I happen to think it's an importiant topic so here we are.

                  Did I mention oil? And if I did, would there have been some way to read your mind to know why you conveniently left it out?

                  Was I even adressing my remarks to you? Is blueocean your other username?
                  Never mind.

                  We do import many resources, minerals etc. But we don't have to. We could make everything we need from US sources. But again, since I'm not advocating building a moat, it's a moot point.

                  You are quite mistaken.The US is not self-sufficient by any means nor is any other country. If you care to believe that and continue ranting you're welcome to, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously. We're posting coments and sharing ideas here in good faith, but apperently that's not your interest. Enjoy your rant.

                  .......

                  But the fact is, the US could completely cut off all trade with the rest of the world and not only survive, but be better off for it - that is, after the initial shock it would cause the global economy.

                  Sorry, I'm a bit nearsighted.

                  We could trade with ourselves exclusively. We would be incredibly prosperous in doing so, with each state representing a country with its own factors of production. We sit on the cream of the crop in world's resources - a benefit most countries do not share. And we have one of the best trained work forces on the planet - although that is changing rapidly.

                  Damn boldface stuff always confuses me, sorry again.

                  So the US could be a self-contained economy, no problem. But I'm not advocating that. I just believe we need to stop the lying about trade. And the idea that the US is dependent on free trade to survive is a lie. Large trans-national corporations are dependent on "free trade" for their excessive profits. But not the US economy, and certainly not labor.

                  Gosh darn, the subtlety of your previous remarks confused the heck out of me. Sorry 3 times over.

                  Wait! I get it! You're saying that, but not really saying that.

                  Sorry, but that that always throws me off.

                  When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

                  by koNko on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 06:47:54 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Ah, the Rush Limbaugh technigue (0+ / 0-)

            YOu can keep spewing your bullshit, but it just doesn't compete with the reality people experiance every day.

            But by all means, spam away.

            •  Can you provide any facts? (0+ / 0-)

              Where are the facts the numbers. Anything to support your claim. What is your logic. I don't expect you to agree with every point so please make a counter point.

              I'm a proud democrat and you want to compare me to Limbaugh. That is pretty low.

              •  A proud anti-union democrat (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Fabian

                how dare he attack you!

                Daily Kos is my imaginary friend.

                by hhex65 on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:04:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, my husband's co-workers lost their jobs (0+ / 0-)

                  and they didn't even have a union to blame for it!

                  Maybe they should have just moved to India, Poland and China when their jobs did?

                  Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

                  by Fabian on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:11:49 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  More bullshit (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Tinfoil Hat, biggus

                What fact are you missing about how the global corporate economy is destroying the AMerican way of life?

                Every time I post a free trade diary, the bots come out of the woodwork reciting their economics 101 class. And bogus numbers from the lying sacks in the administration - Bush Clinton, doesn't matter.

                This is like if I wrote a global warming diary and how we need to recreate our society for the petroleum free future, and you troll the diary wanting me to prove that global warming is real.

                I don't waste my time on global warming deniers. And I don't waste my time on people who get their talking points from Fox News. This diary was for fellow progressives, posted late at night, who don't need to be educated on how the corporate economy is destroying the middle class.

                If you really are a proud democrat, then you need to quit drinking the neoliberal koolaide and start doing your own research about the real state of our economy, who benefits and who is losing. And for God's sake stop reciting talking points from the American Enterprise Institute.

                Go rent Roger and Me then reread my diary. Watch The High Costs of Low Prices.

        •  You may be right but (0+ / 0-)

          You would need to convince a majority of Americans that they would be better off with less.  Fewer technological toys.  Less ability to go down to any one of five supermarkets within 30-45 minute drive and buy any vegetable they want.  Less ability to drive to visit relatives now that we don't all live in or near the same town any more.

          You are right that we used to be able to do it, but I don't think we could any more without such major changes that it would be impractical.  Now, I actually believe that something's gotta change.  I don't know what it is, and I fear that whatever happens is going to be violent, because we currently have such a prefect storm of unsustainability.

          Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

          by eparrot on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:47:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  This isn't a choice just between free trade and (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        koNko

        no trade.

  •  One big thing your ignoring (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    blueocean

    and that is the impact of technology.  And don't think that technology hasn't been a major impact on the jobs market.  consider this.  

      •  Funny thing... (0+ / 0-)

        I tried to read the first link.  I did learn a thing or two but I began to daze off a bit when I got to the importance of investing in Brazil.  

        Let's see what Link #2 has to offer.  Thanks for posting. lol
         

        •  Basically, it boils down to this (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          koNko

          technology has a hugely Democratizing effect on society.  And that has its benefits and its costs.  One of those costs is jobs.  I remember hearing about 2 textile factory, one in the US, and one in another country (somewhere in South America) - they produced the same amount of product, but the one in the US employed 5000 people, and the one in South America employed I think 300 - what was the difference?  The one in South America is only a few years old, while the one in the US is 30-40 years old - in other words, the technology.

          •  Great point (0+ / 0-)

            I'm going to bed now but I really believe that there are plenty of good jobs in America right now. The two companies I work since I graduated from college are always looking for good employees.

            They just need the proper education. we need good policies to make college more affordable. We need good policies that can retrain people that have been laid off.

  •  At the same time that we had an internal liberal (0+ / 0-)

    interstate market in the first half or so of our history, we had conservative trade policies.  I'm generally not in favor of tariffs or subsidies, but not for ideological reasons, so I pretty much agree.

  •  About those moats... (0+ / 0-)

    If we can't build a moat, nobody can.

  •  National sovereignty has been usurped by (0+ / 0-)

    the transnational corporations.

    Therein lies the problem.

    There are rules, laws, and the rule of law. George W. Bush has disregarded all three.

    by geodemographics on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 01:54:41 AM PDT

  •  Related... (0+ / 0-)

    I watched an interview with David Cay Johnston on Book TV this weekend and it got me so angry.  Not only is all this stuff happening but we, the taxpayers, are financing it!  I can't recap everything Johnston said but he used GWB as a prime example of how the mege-rich and influential are getting richer by getting us to pay for their ventures.  The only thing on the Book TV website now is a link to buy the book but hopefully there will be video soon.  The website for the book, "Free Lunch," is here.  Trust me, you do need to be in a certain frame of mind to see the interview.  I have not read the book but I presume the same could be said for that.  Probably shouldn't do either unless you're in a area where you can't injure anyone or damage anything when you start to throw things in a fit of screaming rage.  Even the interviewer, Maya MacGuineas, was speechless a couple of times...

    -7.62, -7.28 "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

    by luckylizard on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:26:18 AM PDT

  •  Resources (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    koNko

    While in past centuries this country could be thought of as Resource rich and exporter to the world. Look at us now, we import most of the fossil fuels we consume, most of the rare metals we use in our electronics and machinery, we import the products of cheap labor etc.

    To suddenly build a moat as you put it isn't going to fly.  

    But, we can and should take on policies that make us more self sufficient and a net exporter again. A green economy is a good start.

    --Country before party--

    by chipoliwog on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:38:43 AM PDT

  •  Hey Tocque! (0+ / 0-)

    You seem pretty cranky today.  Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed or just stay up all night?  

    It's too bad the comments section has descended into a bit of a p***ing match because I really liked your diary and am interested in hearing more about HOW we can get off the "trade is good", "competition is good" merry-go-round that has been IMO a major contributor to the collapse of our families, communities and social infrastructure.  

    I would be particularly interested in thoughts about how much of the current mess is the due to the inevitable pressure of Malthus-predicted population growth versus the bad leadership of Reagan and his ilk who sold our soul to the highest corporate bidder?

    And since it seems to be the topic of them moment, do you think Clinto or Obama is more likely (willing?) to take on the status quo situation?

    Peace.

  •  the invisible hand only does one thing (0+ / 0-)

    for most people - gives them the finger

    Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

    by eparrot on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:33:55 AM PDT

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