Daily Kos

Is HRC proving Nader's point?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:14:51 AM PDT

I come not to dis Hillary, but to shift the loci of your rage.  A lot of energy has been expended in attempting to define and prove Hillary's betrayal of our Democratic Party.  Her use of Rove-like innuendo--e.g., is Obama muslim, Canada says Obama is two-faced on NAFTA, and Obama's literature is like the worst of Rove and the GOP--has left us sputtering in rage.  Her imperialistic attempts to manipulate the democratic process--e.g., seating the MI and FL delegates, suing the Texas Democratic Party, changing super delegates to automatic delegates--has left us stunned at her disregard for her own party.  Now she has praised the very man, John McCain, who stands between us and our determination to restore the traditional values of liberalism to government.

We have cursed her for her sense of entitlement, marveled at her incompetence, and scorned her for her selfishness.  Something is starting to seem amiss in these reactions (and it's not that we've gone too far).  It's that a slight shift in perspective can free our energies of outrage from Hillary and focus them back where they belong--on the dishonest, disrespectful, and discredited politics she thoroughly represents.

I've always been sneeringly skeptical of Ralph Nader's claim that there is little difference between the major political parties. I mean, I'm not naively thinking that both parties are not puppets of corporations, but I have thought that there is enough of a difference in degree to make an enormous difference in the lives of millions of people.  I rode every Nader voting friend since 2000 until they had all admitted that they had been wrong.  I thought GWB's reign had proven beyond any doubt that a Republican Presidency is orders of magnitude worse than any Democratic one.

Hillary Clinton's campaign behavior has now given me serious doubts whether she, and her version of the Democratic Party, enjoys much separation at all from the sleazy overlords currently ruining our country.  Years of insults and sneering disregard for progressives and their ideas have given most of us a keen sense of when we are not welcome at the table.  In applying Occam's Razor to recent events, the simplest explanation involves considering Hillary to be more thoroughly wedded to the corporate establishment so nightmarishly exemplified by GWB than to the liberal values she parades before her New York constituency and, when it is convenient, before the voting hoi polloi of her professed party.

I'm not going into detail here--it's all been hashed and re-hashed.  I'm not trying to sway anyone not already on board with what I am saying.  I am simply suggesting to those sympathetic with my view of things that our understanding will be simplified, our emotions will be directed toward more appropriate action, and our arguments will be clearer if we accept that Hillary Clinton identifies with and is loyal to the very forces which we are determined to defeat in this election.  Forget about Hillary's personality and decision-making--just put her in the category of those who will always appeal to the bigot and the thug and will never stand up for the liberal.  Then return to focusing on the issues.

I speak, of course, of a media committed to keeping power away from the electorate and firmly in the hands of its corporate owners.  I speak of political parties which are little more than arms of corporations.  I speak of judges more loyal to powerful friends than to the law.  I speak of a Congress which has turned its back on the Constitution.  Above all, I speak of an executive branch with open contempt for all liberal notions--  equality, tolerance, religious freedom, open government, science--and a determination to eradicate all progressive influence in our own government.  Hillary is a member of this special club and she is as much frightened by the grassroots popularity of Obama as an Republican.

The abusive treatment of liberals in our country today would make Rodney Dangerfield feel respected.  The recent enthusiasm for Obama, in spite of my misgivings about him, had relieved my feelings of powerlessness and cynicism for the last few weeks.  Thanks to Hillary and her campaign, today I have that distressing old feeling of helpless outrage that my view will go unheard because of idiotic, baseless, and bigoted innuendo aided and abetted by the MSM and the politicians who control things.

I believe Obama is in effect a third party candidate.  He represents the real Democratic Party that honors our liberal traditions and is committed to open, responsive democratic government with concern for all its citizens.  Howard Dean began the process of wresting the party back from the oligarchs, and Obama brings us the promise of completion.  This is my new perspective.

If Hillary wins the nomination, I will probably vote for her unenthusiastically on the weakly held hope that she will be marginally better than McCain.  But I now agree with those I once thought to be loony--I don't believe there will be much difference between them.  I will not identify myself with any political party represented by Hillary Clinton.

Postscript:  I admit it, I'm a nervous wreck today.  If the recent, all too familiar, politics of smear and bigotry succeed in keeping Hillary alive, it will be devastating.  There's not much left in the hope-tank, folks.

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Tags: 2008 elections, primaries, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 36 comments

  •  Tip jar, held out from behind my fortification. (11+ / 0-)

    Please, friends, no name-calling, no profanity, no blaming of individuals.  We now have champions who will help us take on the system and the behavior.

    The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

    by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:15:36 AM PDT

    •  it's sort of beside the point, isn't it? (0+ / 0-)

      I mean, not that I disagree with your general premise--I don't. Hillary Clinton is not the answer to what ails us as a nation.

      But the fact is, Ralph Nader is irrelevant. Completely. Hopelessly sold-out, helping to divide everyone. Just ask Jack Abramoff.

      Fuck him. Don't give him the time of day, not even in the form of one millimeter of column space.  

      On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

      by o the umanity on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:24:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm just saying Nader's assessment, (0+ / 0-)

        which I took to be bunk, was more on the mark than I had allowed.  I don't think he's the answer.

        The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

        by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:54:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Asdf... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      joe shikspack, geomoo, o the umanity

      Postscript:  I admit it, I'm a nervous wreck today.  If the recent, all too familiar, politics of smear and bigotry succeed in keeping Hillary alive, it will be devastating.  There's not much left in the hope-tank, folks.

      Wolfson and the rest of his Atwater Crew can bark all they want, however, the game is in the fourth quarter, with only 20 seconds left, his team is on their own 20, and they are behind by two touchdowns. And he, and Penn, and Hillary know it. They need a miracle to win. The clock is running out. Nasty Republican style-attacks on Obama by Hillary, (or the Conservative Canadian govt. for that matter), can't change the clock, can't change the rules and can't change the score.

      These attacks can however hurt the Dem candidate in Nov.

      Cindy McCain: "In Arizona The Only Way To Get Around The State Is By Small Private Plane"

      by assyrian64 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:25:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey, thanks for the upbeat assessment. (0+ / 0-)

        It's hard to believe we may win something.  Remember the debate in which Gore wiped the floor with Bush's ass.  Then we found out that Gore had been a smug know-it-all and that Bush had actually won.  Remember how Florida went to Gore--no wait, it was Bush.  Remember how we caught Bush/Cheney in impeachable offenses and then--no wait, they just ignored us.  And so on.  I have a bad case of low expectation.  Thanks for the jolt of optimism.

        The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

        by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:53:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  She's Piggybacking On GOP Smears of BHO (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    joe shikspack, geomoo

    AM radio is wall to wall racist smears of Obama as a terrorist, and without that, Hillary's got nothing.

    She's recycling GOP talking points and pandering to the  Beltway 500 to return the Democratic party to its usual defensive crouch and occasional 50+1 win that "proves" Mark Penn is a genius.

    •  NPR ran a long segment yesterday (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      joe shikspack

      whose primary topics were Obama's ominous relationship with Rezco and the NAFTA business.  One quote went something like, Obama was not implicated in the indictment, but his name will come up.  I guess it has more class than AM radio, but it's basically the same game plan.

      It looks to me as though they're circling the wagons against a terrifying prospect.  And in my bad moments, I'm getting that old sinking feeling that comes with having my reality kicked around by thugs.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:24:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I rode every Nader voting friend since 2000 until (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    NYContrarian

    they admitted they were wrong...

    Wrong for voting for their choice of a President?

    •  I think you're engaging me in semantics or (0+ / 0-)

      logical sparring.  They were right to vote their choice, of course.  Their choice was wrong.  Let me ask you, were those who voted for Nixon wrong?  Or would you suggest we salute them for voting their choice?

      I have said some debatable things here.  This isn't one of them.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:26:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My husband lost a friend over the last election (0+ / 0-)

        he kept "riding" the friend for "voting for a loser."  This petty I told you so crap ended a pretty nice relationship with the man and his wife and us.

        •  Well, I'm a charming sweet guy who bends over (0+ / 0-)

          backwards not to make people feel bad.  I just kept asking, "What do you think now?  Do you think there is no difference between the parties?"  I respected the answers I got, but they did change over time.  One can discuss these issues without being smug and without losing friends.  I am sorry you and your husband lost a friend.

          In other news, if you're in Philly, you have a big fight coming up.

          The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

          by geomoo on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:04:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hillmentum! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    rlmeade, geomoo

    I'm increasingly surprised at myself thinking more and more that if HRC finagles a win to the nomination that maybe the democratic party does not represent what I want to be a part of anymore.  My parents are democrats, I'm a democrat.  A lifetime of this kind of political mediocrity that HRC represents is just getting to be too much.  Her campaign has the aura of a GOP attack machine.  Feh.

    •  Precisely my feeling. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sapien

      And it surprises me.  This is new territory for this loyal soldier, and I don't bask in it like some.  It's downright unsettling.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:27:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Another thought (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        geomoo

        I'm just now thinking back to 1996/2000 and am realizing that this is the same feeling I had then - that my own ideals potentially do not match up with my party's actions.  I voted for Gore enthusiastically and will vote for HRC if that happens (which it will not, I hope) but am struck that it must somehow be Clintonian politics that really push me away from the party.  The history is there.  An Obama nomination would be an exciting new direction for the party.  He activates people's activism, which goes beyond what any other candidate has offered in my lifetime.

        •  It has certainly worked on me (0+ / 0-)

          I had quit coming to dKos altogether because I just could no longer stand journaling the defeats.  I have grown excited that Obama at least is a chance at something different.  I don't idolize the man, and I have serious doubts, but damn, the man is different.  And seeing people turn out to express their desire to participate and change the lousy way things are going--that has my juices flowing for the first time in years.

          The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

          by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:48:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Good diary. I am in Texas and needed a bit of a (1+ / 0-)

    break from phonebanking and running to the polling location in my precinct to see how things are going.  I am not sure that I can support her in November should she win the nomination light of her campaign tactics.  However, it is a long time until November.

    "Everybody in politics lies, but they do it with such ease, it's troubling." David Geffen on Bill and Hillary Clinton

    by rlmeade on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:24:01 AM PDT

    •  That's one of my fears. Thanks change instantly (0+ / 0-)

      One coordinated attack from the corporate media, and the whole thing looks different.  It's hard dealing with lying scumbags in a short attention span nation.

      Thanks for the work.  I am energized by the commitment of folks like you.  I hope you were entertained.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:56:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am not sure Obama represents much but Obama (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    geomoo

    That aside .... he has run a change message campaign and not in my opinion a "liberalism restored" campaign. I suspect that in the GE part of the republican campaign will be one on asking the voting public if they want a return to liberalism. My guess is that Obama will righyly counter that he is liberal on some issues and more GOP-lite on others. Not sure how that plays out.

    I absolutely believe Obama is the better choice when compared to Hillary. I believe he profits quite a bit from the anti-Hillary vote in the primary but may have a hard time carrting that into the GE. It is also going to be interesting to see if a debuke of Hillary in the primary is viewed by her female supporters as a rebuke of women. It may well play out that the primaries will result in a candidate that has luke warm appeal to a key constituency .... Hillary with the AA community and Obama with women.

    Speaking as a white male .... being a dem is not easy.

    •  As to liberalism (0+ / 0-)

      He may have sidestepped the word, but I see him aligning himself quite unequivocally with liberal issues.  He mentions the great liberal achievements of the past--voting rights for women, civil rights for blacks, etc.-- and he throws his weight behind the important liberal issues of today--open government, accountability, the environment, health care, tax structure, inclusiveness, etc.  I know it's a debatable point, but to me it's okay if he avoids the word and embraces the issues.

      Whether he's really as good as his word is a different question.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:32:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good arguments for... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    geomoo

    ...an Edwards nomination, if that was still possible.

    Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin -SLB-

    by boran2 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:25:56 AM PDT

  •  Hillary is an insider, Barack is an insurgent (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    geomoo

    That is why she communes well with John McCain, another insider.  Inherently voting is screwed up - I spent 5 hours last night explainign to many voters why they couldn't vote in Texas because they had moved and had not transferred their registration with in the state, etc.  But at least Barack believes in bringing as many people into the process to vote and to participate so that more Americans have a stake in the the outcome.  Hillary is old school - she only wants to win and that means making sure only people who support her get to the polls.  And that is pure Republican play book - just look at those Texas rules that make it so hard to keep registered in the state.  Again, Barack by getting people involved may not make Texas swin on the Presidential level, but certainly will make races competittive throughout the state from the US Senatre race down.  That's called change; not just winning.

    So yeah - Nader had a point - but a point that should have been acted upon before 1994, becuase at that point the barbarians invaded Washington, and the Democrats in all their corporatist, weak kneed and peacock like glory were and are the main line of defense.

    Ralph we are not a parliamnetary system - it is winner take all for each office - so your approach only peels people away from the Democrats.  Even with Hillary, we get judges who are real lawyers and believe in the Constitution.  Even with Hillary, we get policies based on science and hard data.  Even with Hillary, we get a more progressive treatment of people marginalized and discriminated within oru country

    •  Yes, I'm still offended by Nader's choice to run (0+ / 0-)

      and the effect it could have (I think we've learned our lesson there).  But the point to me is more that he has absolutely no chance of winning.  Obama represents the overthrow from within that just may happen.  At least I hope he's different.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:36:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Did I mention (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    geomoo

    that, in (the humble, tinfoil-hat opinion mode that I find myself cynically in today), we're being set up?

    Brace yourselves, as we wake up tomorrow to find that Hillary Clinton has pulled off some sort of electoral miracle, and swept all four states.

    God, I hope I'm wrong. I can't take six more minutes of this shit, let alone six more weeks. But then again, I'm not counting the votes, either...

    On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

    by o the umanity on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:32:33 AM PDT

    •  We are both getting seasick from the same (0+ / 0-)

      nauseating roll of media-created "reality."  I held back on my more paranoid suspicions of conspiracy, but don't think I don't suffer from them.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:39:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The difference between Democrats and Republicans (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ChurchofBruce, geomoo

    My favorite Nader quote: "The only difference between Democrats and Republicans is how fast their knees hit the floor when a corporation comes into the room."

    I want candidates who represent "the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party", like Howard Dean or Paul Wellstone, who coined the phrase.

    Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
    Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

    by Caelian on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:32:51 AM PDT

  •  I see what you're saying, but (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    NYContrarian, geomoo

    I think the point fails in that Nader seems to think Obama is just the same as Hillary.  He's already declared he'll run, which means he'll run against Obama (I assume -- I haven't actually paid enough attention to him to know).  So this implies that he thinks Obama also represents corporate control, etc. -- all the things you mention.

    I think you're right that she's proving the point Nader seems to make.  Where I think I disagree with you is that I don't think that's Nader's real point, though he's constantly saying that.  I think his real point is, "Nobody can save you but me!"

    •  Very strong point. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      I

      One option is that Nader is right about Obama.  Heaven forbid is all I can say.  As Hillary would say, "There is no basis for thinking that.  As far as I know."

      The other option is just as you state.  And I think you're right.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:42:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Agree wholeheartedly (0+ / 0-)

    Look at how Pelosi has sneeringly referred to the anti-war protestors, and those who demand impeachment of Bush and Cheney.

    And Hoyer.

    Soooo many of them!

    In many ways I despise people like that more than I do the Tom Delays of the world.  Delay was born evil.  People like Pelosi are the hypocrites, the liars, the true betrayers of the human soul.  

  •  Fall on my sword... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    geomoo

    I'll vote for Nader before Clinton.

    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy" Hamlet, 1:5

    by synductive99 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:41:34 AM PDT

    •  Three weeks ago I would have screamed at you (0+ / 0-)

      I'm very close to the same place now myself.  I'm so angry and frustrated at being played and having to settle for a pretense of having a few of my causes nodded at.  After all the insults to me and to the Constitution, I may join you in saying  a pox on both your houses.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:45:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a nervous wreck, too. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    geomoo

    Mostly about Hillary's people strong-arming the caucus tonight.  Did everyone in Texas read and e-mail to all their family and friends the outstanding diary by Kath25 "How to Caucus in Texas"?  Please do.  It's golden.

    "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." -Thomas Jefferson

    by delillo2000 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:14:57 AM PDT

    •  Thanks. I missed that diary. (0+ / 0-)

      Here's the link.

      I am so tired of dealing with bullies.  We're all thinking of Texas and Ohio.  I would have bet against ever saying this, but I'm really proud of Texas.  You guys rule.

      The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

      by geomoo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:31:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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