Can Obama Throw a Punch?

The pundits at CNN usually tick me off but I have to give them credit for something they said tonight. David Gergen was telling a story of how Obama went to a senior Democrat when he decided he was running for advice. The Democrat told him, and I paraphrase.

"Barak, we know you can take a punch. But can you throw a punch?"

I think, this is the key question last night's results have raised. Let's face it, even though the results did not have a critical impact on a pure arithmatic basis, they were very disappointing if you are an Obama backer.

How could this happen? I think the key is that Obama and his campaign did not respond to the kitchen sink. The reason why they avoided going negative is that they felt that he needs to protect this sacred image of the different candidate. They were wrong.

And judging by how they came out today, they know they were wrong. At this point in the campaign, a candidate who is on the ropes needs to show he can throw a few punches. Nobody wants a candidate who is not going to fight back, especially when the attacks by the opposite camp are unfair. Democrats have been bullied by republicans for long enough, they don't need someone who is going to lay down and take it. Besides, throwing a few punches back will not hurt the image of a different candidate. It will just show that he is different, but that you don't mess with him.  No one will object to this...

•  Here's the thing

  I think he can throw a punch, but he's come a long way and is still ahead by any meaningful metric by not throwing a punch, by restoring dignity to the campaign process, and by using a positive message to reinvigorate people alienated by the constant muckraking.  

  I think some stronger statements defusing the experience meme and questioning legitimate issues like the tax returns are helpful, and I think he's heading that way, but I don't want him to descend into breaking kneecaps.  Speak softly (metaphorically) and carry a big stick and all that.

  by socratic on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:04:48 PM PDT

•  well

  As long as the punches you talk about are above the belt and fair criticisms I'm with you.

  If Obama stoops to the level of Clinton, he'll lose my vote.

  by JCross on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:05:16 PM PDT

  •  But when he throws a fair and above belt

    punch, Clinton counters with a sleazy, below-the-belt punch, justifying it on the basis that she is "defending herself" against his unfair attacks.  And she wins this way, because America has no sense of fair play left anymore.  All they see is that she looks like she's got a harder punch.  I don't think brawling with Hillary Clinton is the way, the results from Tuesday notwithstanding.  She won't show any restraint, and the "refs" here won't call fouls.

    Obama is an aikido fighter.  He needs to recenter, and consider the "rhythm and intent" of her attacks in order to find a strategy that will allow her to damage herself with her own attack.

    by Mother of Zeus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:23:19 PM PDT

    •  He lost his own game by going after her on NAFTA

      it didn't help him any and the blowback hurt him.

      Bad aikido!

      He needs to go back to lofty tones plus the dog whistle attacks that drive the Clinton campaign into distracted apeshit and that everyone else absorbs but does not consciously recognize.  Like he started doing in Iowa.

      by slaney black on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:58:58 PM PDT

•  Obama Needs to work toward an endgame now.

  He should rightly accuse Hillary Clinton of trying to destroy the democratic party. And state that he is the only one who can unify the both the party and the country. This will allow him to throw a punch while simultaneously seeming above the fray.

  If he does not do this McCain certainly will (I already see it coming). Especially after the democrats get done with the bloodletting that will be the Democratic convention.

  by malikstarks on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:07:13 PM PDT

•  I think that Obama can throw a punch

  for he has with McCain.

  He hasn't with Hillary though and I don't know if it is because she is a woman and he doesn't want to piss off her supporters or what.

  Well we have 6 weeks to see if Obama can attack and hit harder.

  by Drdemocrat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:08:27 PM PDT

  •  My school year will almost be over

    by the time PA comes.

    by PROfess PROgress on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:15:07 PM PDT

•  How do you punch a girl?

  That's the dilemma, here.

  by other72384 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:09:03 PM PDT

  •  How indeed? You really can't--

    but you can trip her up. I think he can make her stumble and fumble and fall. I think he can make her trip over her own record and her own words.

    by cultural worker on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:14:28 PM PDT

    •  Yank her hair and beg for uncle

      isnt that appropriate?

      by PROfess PROgress on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:24:13 PM PDT

  •  Punch her husband

    by FightOn on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:25:39 PM PDT

•  Obama should say this

  We have two candidates (Hillary and McCain) who have been in the Senate during the disastrous years of the Bush Administration. Simply calling a supporter of a war, in which you supported as well, and your husband calling him one of her closest friends is not change. It is the same politics that we have seen over and over again. Two people who appear on different sides end up together as two candidates voting for a war that should never have been authorized. She has not challenged George Bush and she has not proven that she can be president. A president is not determined upon who has waited the longest to deserve it. It is about who has the right judgment on day one until the end of your presidency to accomplish an improvement that Congress has feared for years and retains the status quo. That is not change, and we need change that can bring America together and not simply shake hands with lobbyists who simply represent her and John McCain.

  by PROfess PROgress on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:11:58 PM PDT

•  This is the problem I have had with Obama

  if Obama cannot fight back against Hillary - how could we possibly expect him to fight back enough to win the White House against McCain.

  Do you really mean to tell me that if Obama is the nominee that you would not want him to fight back against McCain any more than he has done with Hillary??

  This kind of "niceness" will give the White House to McCain -- so what is the most important to you?? are you really willing to give up a chance of the next several Surpreme Court judges unless Obama is nice??

  by sara seattle on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:14:18 PM PDT

  •  Obama says he does not get angry much

    and may be the reason he has not made a significant gaffe and why he does not have the fighter image Edwards had. Obama is not the nice you talk about, but we have seen him with a militant image in his rhetoric when he speaks at the podium, and has been serious and mature with his message and campaign. It is like a child who is messing around and the parent cannot get the kid to stop whining. Obama has to let her get to bed for the night so he can win the nomination.

    by PROfess PROgress on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:17:49 PM PDT

    •  It is a matter of if he gets angry

      it is a matter of can he outsmart the other person - or is he timid and afraid to cause offense - so instead of hitting back hard - he gets slammed and by the time he reacts - it is too late (remember Kerry)

      The media is not going to be any nicer to him, that's for sure -- and McCain is waiting to slug him - and acting like the parent to a child is not going to do it - because McCain will flatten him - something a child would not do to a parent

      because, - you see,  Obama is not McCain's parent !!

      by sara seattle on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:30:10 PM PDT

  •  I think he is doing at good job of going after...

    McCain.  He's been focusing no McCain a lot in his speeches and firing back when McCain throws stuff at him.

    Obama just hasn't gone negative in the primaries because that is a bad thing to do.

    by musicalhair on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:28:31 PM PDT

  •  I think

    McCain will compete a little more honestly than Clinton has so I don't think that the contrast will be as stark.

    I also see that Obama is winning by a substantial margin even with the niceness you find so objectionable.

    And, btw, the democratic process being above board IS more important to me than the next supreme court judge.

    by JCross on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:03:17 PM PDT

    •  Honestly

      you guys are not reassuring me

      McCain competing more honestly than Hillary -- what are you smoking?? the next one to be smoked then -- Obama!!

      by sara seattle on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:13:27 PM PDT

  •  He prefers not to fight someone on the same team.

    He throws plenty of punches at republicans (Bush, McCain, etc.), on the other hand.

    by pointsoflight on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:06:24 PM PDT

    •  Could you give me a link

      at some of the punches thrown??

      by sara seattle on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:14:10 PM PDT

•  I think that people want to see Obama fight

  I just get that sense.  I really think that the reason why Hillary looks like she got her mojo back because she was backed into a corner and fought back.  People in general like a fighter.

  Obama needs to show that too.

  I think all this is good for Obama though.  It is better he learns that he has to attack as well as counterattack now in March than learn it in October.

  It is time to stop looking like he is above it all and just waiting for the clock to run out since he is so far ahead in the delegate count.

  It is time to get down and dirty.  

  That is one of the reasons why I like Senator Webb.  He always looks like he is ready for a brawl.  That kind of feistiness appeals to men and blue collar workers.

  by Drdemocrat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:15:58 PM PDT

  •  Its like a 4 point lead with 30 seconds left in

    a basketball game. Hes trying to run out the clock while Hillary keeps fouling him. He has to make the ree throws and still defend.

    by PROfess PROgress on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:19:15 PM PDT

    •  Obama Can Start with the Real Facts on

      NAFTAgate.  The Clinton campaign actually was the one telling the Canadian government to take her comments "with a grain of salt."

      Seems the NAFTAgate leak started with -- surprise, surprise -- the Chief of Staff to Canada's conservative PM Stephen Harper. Only the first hint wasn't about stuff the Canadians had heard from the Obama camp. It was about reassurances the Canadians got from the Clinton campaign. According to a reporter who heard the original conversation, Brodie said "someone from (Hillary) Clinton's campaign is telling the embassy to take it with a grain of salt. . . That someone called us and told us not to worry."

      Only somehow this evolved into a story about the Obama campaign giving such reassurances.

      Talking Points Memo

      Play that over and over again on ad buys to show what a conniving hypocrite Hillary is.  

      Hope the TV media starts asking HER about this.  Yup she bamboozled Ohio and Texas with this one.  

      by wonderama on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:37:16 PM PDT

•  Except

  Obama isn't on the ropes.  Let me repeat:  He isn't on the fucking ropes.

  That isn't to say he shouldn't throw a punch; I'd like to see that too, if for nothing else than to see how he can throw one at McCain.

  But he is not on the ropes.

  by kaleidescope on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:16:30 PM PDT

  •  He isn't on the ropes

    but he risks looking like a WIMP if he doesn't attack and counterattack effectively.

    Nobody wants a wimp against McCain.

    by Drdemocrat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:19:27 PM PDT

    •  Its the end of a round

      and he just feels a bit tired than before. He is now trying to create a strategy. Last night was a well fought round where Hillary had two more punches, but not significant to knock enough delegates. This means Obama has to get some water and get fired up.

      Anyone liking my analogies? This is the third one.

      by PROfess PROgress on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:21:59 PM PDT

  •  he isn't on the ropes but he will be

    if he flat lines in the remaining primaries as he did in 3 of 4 yesterday. He needs to figure out a way to fight back in a way that places HRC on the defensive as to her false claims of "experience," having been "vetted,"and being better equipped to take the 3AM phone call . . . He allowed HRC to define the terms of the debate in the last few days of the Tuesday primaries, and he cannot afford to do that again as HRC needs to be stopped cold rather than edged out by a handful of superdelegate votes at the convention.

    by alba on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:30:24 PM PDT

•  Obama Needs To Go Nuclear On Her. Heres How

  Take Every Picture She Had With World Leaders And Do an Ad Saying:

  Does Taking Pictures With World Leaders Count As Experience In Foreign Policy?

  Why Cant Hillary Tell Us How Many Times She Has Answered The Phone. Is That Only Another Picture She Wants Us To Buy Into Without Any Proof?

  by DFutureIsNow on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:32:28 PM PDT

•  Well it looks like Obama is going to punch

  Check out this NYT article

  http://www.nytimes.com/...

  by Drdemocrat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:39:54 PM PDT

  •  ha......

    i've been harsher with my 14 year old. Mr.Obama is about to learn that change can be hard, lol.

    by ThomasDewey on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:36:32 PM PDT

•  It's John Kerry all over again!

  by SBoswell on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:50:29 PM PDT

•  Repost from another thread...

  ...

  Obama has to get tough and run ads that attack Hillary...it doesn't mean he has to lie, but he needs to get the message out that she is not the candidate people are going to want to see in the GE.   - Show she's in message lock-step with John McCain - Hammer her on 2002-2006 tax returns - Slam her on her "experience" (already getting started) - Slam her with footage like Code Pink, AUMF, etc

  In short, HE CAN TAKE THE GLOVES OFF AND STILL FIGHT "FAIR"

  Like it or not the great majority of voters do not come to DKos or anything like it for their information.  They know what they see on the news, what they see in ads during Wheel of Fortune, what their gossipy friends tell them at the bar or the hair salon or the church.  Hillary is winning that argument because she's forced to go negative by having her back against the wall.

  Obama cannot wait until he is behind in the polls to try and comeback.  He needs to come out swinging and he doesn't have to give up his integrity to do so.

  On a GUT LEVEL, people want a leader who is not afraid to MIX IT UP with their opponent.  In short, they want A FIGHTER.  He can still fight fair and be more of a fighter, and if he doesn't defend himself, he'll end up in Bill Bradley land.

  IMO, this is exactly what the Obama camp is going to start doing.  They are too smart and have come too far to stand on top of the mountain and just hope no one pushes them down the slope.

  by mralex1974 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:56:13 PM PDT

•  The media would like nothing better

  than for Obama to "throw a punch." Being a fighter is media speak for mudslinger. There is nothing those chumps at CNN would love better than to see Obama and Clinton throwing shit at each other like two chimps in the zoo.
  But seriously, do we really want to go there?

  Let's face it, if Obama really wants to go nuclear on Clinton, all he really has to do is stand up on the podium and say "Monica Lewinski." And that's just what the knuckle draggers at CNN and the media want him to do. Clinton is on thin ice if she really wants to get into a gutter fight with all the baggage she carries thanks to Bill and Ken Starr.

  Seriously, I hope Obama just keeps on with his plan. Talk about the future and turning the page. Put up big wins in WY and MS and hold it close in PA. Then put up wins in the states that follow and finish out with a blowout in NC.

  And I saw that discussion with Gergen and those other chuckleheads. I mean, who the hell are they anyway? Those four chuckleheads are sitting around telling Obama what he needs to do. Right. Obama knows what to do and he is doing it and he is winning. I don't see David Gergen or those other saps leading the Democratic race in delgegates, popular vote and states.

  Who cares what they say.

  Obama will secure the nomination. It is only a matter of when at this point. If Clinton wants to take it to the convention that is up to her. She can reckon with whatever political costs arise from her decision to do so. But it will not result in her getting the nomination.

  by magurakurin on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:06:33 PM PDT

•  This Was Utterly Moronic. The Guy's Intelligent

  but has been a complete idiot about this.

  Unless he's so ingenious that he planned to get himself into negative momentum with a serious risk of having the party select his opponent, specifically in order to gain the experience fighting his opponent to the point of reversing positions and momentum again.

  Every other idiot knew McCain would eventually criticize him, so that you'd think his team would have had a Plan B appropriate simultaneously to both his vision and much lesser attack a failing machine opponent would throw.

  As it stands we have two stupendously dumb candidates to choose from, one who's written off half the country, the other who's written off half the essential tactical arsenal.

  by Gooserock on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:07:44 PM PDT

•  It's going to be a real challenge for Obama.

  She wins when the media starts writing her obit, and when she whines and cries. NH. OH/TX/RI. The sympathy vote, the identity voter, is quite willing to disregard her duplicitous conduct.

  He can't forsake the high road altogether, as he would be vilified as a hypocrite.

  Therefore, he will need the help of allies and surrogates to make the case against his rival.

  And, yes, he must show strength, fight and determination taken to a higher level.

  Otherwise, his name will appear next to Adlai Stevenson. Admirable, great orator, also ran.

  by SicXitGM on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:11:08 PM PDT

  •  Go after Bill

    that's why she's hiding the tax returns. The ports scandal was only the tip of the iceburg.
    Will he be continuing his business in the White House?

    by bornadem on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:18:39 PM PDT

    •  i hope so....

      do you remember the '90's?......the economy?..
        if Obama think's he'll change Washington, not only is he dilusional, he's dangerous.

      by ThomasDewey on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:39:20 PM PDT

•  He may have been relying on the delegate count

  to enable him to avoid this kind of fight with a Democratic rival.

  That no longer works - not because he has lost the lead, but because it has not been an adequate strength test.

  He needs to win on more than points.

  by SicXitGM on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:21:52 PM PDT