Daily Kos

The subprime mess is no accident.

Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:38:18 AM PDT

I thought I would expand a bit on my diary from a few days ago, and make more explicit something it contained.  (A friend told me I buried the lede.)

The subprime mess is generally treated as a crisis, a catastrophe, one of those unpredictable pathologies that happen in our economy because the ingenuity of corporate and financial types outpaces regulatory understanding and control.  Sure, it's some of that, but what it isn't is unpredictable or pathological.  

When you understand the thermodynamic roots of economic life, and when you understand how our financial system flouts thermodynamic law, you can see that regular crises like these are a structural requirement of our system.  

Current econmic wisdom treats phenomena like inflation, bankruptcy, and the failure of bond issuers to meet their obligations as economic pathologies: wouldn't it be nice to see an end to these things?  Maybe with good management we can cruise along without them.

But inflation, bankruptcy, and the failure of bond issuers to meet their obligations are all forms of debt repudiation, and our system has a built-in requirement for some form of debt repudiation, because it lets debt (which is a claim on future real wealth) grow faster than real wealth.  

Debt grows through the charging of interest.  In the neoclassical economic paradigm, charging interest is normal, but bankruptcy, bond failures, and inflation are not.  Paradox, huh?

Here's how the charging of compound interest leads to a need for debt repudiation.

A loan at interest is made in the expectation that the borrower will be able to pay back the loan out of increased income in the future.  If we scale that expectation up to the whole system--the economy as a whole--we can see that the obligation to pay back more than you borrowed can be met only if the economy as a whole grows by a percentage equal to the (average) interest rate.  

An example?  I'll use the one from my diary Tuesday. Say I borrow the price of a gallon of milk and promise to pay you the price of a gallon and a pint next year.  (Multiply by billions, and apply this to lots of things besides milk:  cars, houses, food, clothing, whatever you might borrow money to buy.  Which is, basically, all goods and services.)  The deal works out fine, if the economy grows enough so that where there was a gallon of milk this year there will be a gallon and a pint next year.  

What if there's insufficient growth?  

I could repudiate the debt--simply fail to pay it.  (If I do this systematically, I'm declaring bankruptcy.)  But I can stay out of trouble if there's inflation:  if prices go up--if a gallon of milk next year costs the same as a gallon and a pint this year--I can pay you back the price of this year's gallon and a pint in inflated dollars, which lets you buy only a gallon.  I've met my monetary obligation to you but haven't paid you the real gallon and a pint, the increased claim on real stuff that you thought the deal was going to bring you.  

Debt is a claim on future wealth--a claim on real wealth, actual things, not "monetary wealth," which Frederick Soddy (a guy I mentioned Tuesday) calls "virtual wealth."  (There's no good website that I can find that explains his ideas.  If you have access to online academic journals, check out Herman Daly's article on him in the Journal of the History of Political Economy.)   A system that lets debt grow faster than real wealth grows is a system that needs periodic bouts of debt repudiation:  bankruptcy, inflation, or failed bonds.

Within the limit implied by the rate at which real wealth can grow from year to year, this holds true:  anybody who "makes money" in investments at a larger rate than that has to be offset by someone in the system who loses out--who holds debt that is repudiated by inflation, bankruptcy, or other failure of investment instruments. If we hold inflation in check then the system needs more bankruptcies and bond failures.

So the subprime crisis is no surprise to me.  It stands in a series of crises over the past few decades--the Savings and Loan crisis, the Enron affair--in which vast quantities of debt were "repudiated."  That's a technical term for something that is very ugly:  people invested savings and saw those savings disappear.

One implication of this theoretical perspective is that there is a quantifiable and discoverable relationship between several variables:

Debt Repudiation = growth in debt minus real economic growth

Thus, other things being equal, we'd expect to see more bankruptcies in eras when inflation is low, and vice versa.  

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find good data or the time to play with them in order to tease this out and demonstrate it.  It's probably a Ph.D thesis amount of work, or at least a Master's degree.  Anyone want to tackle it?

 

Tags: Economics, Mortgage Crisis, Frederick Soddy, Environment, Zencey, Recommended, Housing, Housing Crisis, Finance, Wall St. (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 174 comments

  •  A good read (8+ / 0-)

    this is interesting and makes sense. thanks for writing.

  •  I assume that this is not what Schumpeter (9+ / 0-)

    meant by 'creative destruction.' Well, on the face of it, this make total sense. But this brings up a bigger question: our trade imbalance with many countries. If that were going to be dealt with by a form of debt repudiation, that is one way to globalize insolvency, no? I hear rumors of an impending devaluation of the dollar, which would be a partial debt repudiation.

    Nixon did this after the instability created by reneging on the Bretton Woods Agreement. But we are in a very different world now. We are a heavily indebted nation, and such a devaluation would play havoc on a broad scale and end the dollar's status as a reserve currency. Once that happens, mega-stores like Walmart won't be able to get it's hands on all that merchandise from overseas. Everything goes up in price and the debt repudiation beat goes on within this country.

    Good diary.


    -7.25/-6.41 Consumerism is the disease that allows the ruling classes to thrive; therefore, not buying is a small but necessary first act of rebellion.

    by sravaka on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:52:54 AM PDT

    •  The whole international angle (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lcrp, Pluto, Gravedugger

      is something that needs to be taken into account.  (That's why elaborating that rough formula, which really is a clear implication of what Soddy and Daly have said, so I can't take credit for it) would be a big deal of work.

      What I suspect we'll find:  in the globalized system, a lot of the debt repudiation (like a lot of jobs, and a lot of environmental damage) will be pushed to the fringes of the system.  Developing world debt repudiation is nothing new; I'd love to see facts and figures on it that integrated it into this different Ecological Economics perspective.

  •  You forgot Sandy Weil (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mmcole, Nulwee, Eric Zencey

    and Citi bank, but  you can write a part II another day. tiped and rec'd

    The definition of insanity is voting the same way and expecting a different result. I'm talking to you FL,OH, KY, WV!

    by Shhs on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:53:06 AM PDT

  •  So the high interest rates are for what purpose? (7+ / 0-)

    I've always wondered that if money is borrowed at 5 percent and the credit card companies are charging 25-30 percent, what's to explain the discrepancy? Using your model of a gallon of milk, this really amounts to a quart per gallon compounded! But the minimum payment is a pint so people think they're getting a real deal!

    Using credit cards to pay for anything means we're paying 30 percent or more for the items! No bargain at all! It's a huge house of cards that is tumbling down on us and, you're right, this has been happening for several years. Not yesterday!

    "What a peaceful world it would be if Barbara had aborted!"

    by DevonTexas on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:59:18 AM PDT

    •  The only people paying (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      basquebob

      30 percent are people who either have no sense of what they are doing, or have a bad credit history, and banks are just covering their butts, because they expect some people to fail to pay.

    •  Because they can charge that much (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lcrp, basquebob, HomeBrew

      A significant amount of that is a risk premium, some if normal profit, and the rest is additional profit due to the lack of competition in the credit card market.

      We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

      by CA Libertarian on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:09:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and because of (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lcrp, basquebob, CA Libertarian

        lack of consumer information; competition assumes perfect info, and most people can't keep up with the fine print in their credit card statements, but go along with what they've got.  Which is rational behavior:  we can't go around investing hours of research into every aspect of our lives, trying to maximize choices.  So we spend too much on cable, phones, internet service providers, credit cards, etc.  There's a book out about this; I heard the author on NPR, can't recall names.

    •  HomeBrew beat me to it (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      basquebob

      Banks must price in the risk of some of those debtors failing to pay.  Mathematically:

      Loan Interest - Default amounts = Profit

      Bring the WAR home

      Starve the corporate beast, buy local!

      by EthrDemon on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:10:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's to pay the lender (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      k9disc, lcrp, PsychoSavannah

      Every credit-card transaction is like a microloan.

      You didn't buy the goods. You were lended the money by the credit card lender to have funds in order to have the purchase power to buy the goods, with an obligation to pay back the agency at a later date, typically by the end of the term (month).

      If you do not repudiate that loan, you are charged a fee, which is the credit card's arbitrary peg of their cost to do business (plus profit).

      It doesn't mean you're paying 30% more for items. It means you are contracting to pay them more money later, because you don't have cash.

      That's why I use cash. But it's mostly for privacy. Credit card contracts create a paper trail of goods purchased by an individual, which bothers me.

      My password is: "transparency" This is a communal account. Everyone may play, few will win!

      by nanobubble on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:27:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This may sound tin foil hattish... but... (7+ / 0-)

    I think they've know exactly what they're doing all along, and I think that it all serves a giant purpose that we may not even understand yet.  The poorer we are, the more control they have over us.  

    Let's hope for a revolution.

    "In political discussion heat is in inverse proportion to knowledge." J. G. C. Minchin

    by LucyMO on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:03:30 PM PDT

    •  Hope never brought revolution (6+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gabie, Yamara, Pluto, Biologist, LucyMO, Eric Zencey

      If that's the kind of change you want, be out there starting it.

      Bring the WAR home

      Starve the corporate beast, buy local!

      by EthrDemon on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:10:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it is tin foil hattery (12+ / 0-)

      There is no grand scheme.  It's just each fool trying to make a buck, and the government wasn't enforcing the laws concerning checking over people's ability to pay.

      Then plenty of numbsculls took out loans without understanding the fine print, and their rates went up.

      All of this got packaged with hundreds of other loans and resold two or three times.

      There is no big scheme here.  It's just a combination of lack of oversight, greed on part of the first lenders, and stupidity on the part of borrowers.

      •  I Have to Agree (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        wu ming, Gravedugger, Eric Zencey

        I wish there was a scheme, I really do. It's a blow to realize that stupidity destroyed a national economy in seven short years.

        On the other hand, it sure is easy to make money if you play against Americans.

        Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

        by Pluto on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:15:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The economy is not destroyed (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Pluto

          That's just hyperbole.  

          Measured against all kinds of long term metrics, we are as well off as we have ever been.

          It could certainly be a lot better though.

          •  Thank God... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            wu ming, Yamara

            ...there are still folks I can play against.

            Spread the word:

            It's the biggest economy in the world.
            We've reached the bottom.
            If we go down, everyone goes down.

            Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

            by Pluto on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:23:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yah, but we're not going down. (0+ / 0-)

              People want to say gloom and doom because it advances whatever political cause they happen to be peddling.

              So I won't be able to buy a new car this year.  Big deal.  No society has ever been materially so well off.

              We'll have our ups and downs, but that's just normal.

              •  Sheesh, I forgot that one... (0+ / 0-)

                We'll have our ups and downs, but that's just normal.

                Pass it on.

                Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

                by Pluto on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:30:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I beg to differ... (5+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                basquebob, Pluto, chigh, shigeru, HomeBrew

                No society has ever been materially so well off.

                Some economists who look beyond such flawed measures as GDP-per-person say that Americans in the late 1950s were better off than we are today:  high standard of living, less debt, more free time, better environment (which means, more ecosystem services  from natural capital), less pollution, congestion, etc. etc. etc. This is borne out by the experience of many Americans, who do not feel that they are bettr off than their parents.  

                And in terms of happiness (rather than wealth, let alone the imperfect measure of wealth represented by per person GDP), there are dozens of countries that have it all over the U.S. these days.  Cuba included.  

                •  And look at all the anti-boomer diaries (6+ / 0-)

                  which fatuously blame the boomers for the subsequent generations' diminishing prospects. This is wrong of course as the the causes are much more complex, but it is an indication of the frustration and diminishing returns expected by current generations.

                  A key point in your rebuttal is the mention of ecosystem services which have declined so much in relation to the population to be unavailable to the average person today. During the depression in the 30's it was possible and common for the unemployed to be able to at least eat from efforts such as hunting or subsistence farming. One of my uncles actually kept 20 families alive,fed, clothed and healthy on his farm. None were wealthy, all contributed to the work, but all survived. (Half the men survived to be killed or maimed in WWII, but that's another story.)
                  With today's overpopulation, degraded environment and corporate ownership of most land, can you imagine anything like that happening?

                  "The fact which the politician faces is merely that there is less honor among thieves than was supposed, and not the fact that they are thieves." Thoreau

                  by shigeru on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:59:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, I am with you (0+ / 0-)

                  there.  That is why I threw in the qualifier "material".  

                  •  This diary was relating to the current (0+ / 0-)

                    financial crisis and inflation.  Those things are the subject of government monetary policy.

                    Most of the things listed above where we have gone in the crapper are related to our life style choices, and too many people fighting for too few resources.

                    Those are mostly societal problems, not government policy problems.

              •  lol... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Pluto

                This is about more than not being able to buy a car, HB.

                We're talking about food shortages, credit card companies taking homes for debt, inability to keep supply lines intact.
                etc.

                Sharing and Caring are for Commies! They should be illegal. Drop by and support the Human Agenda

                by k9disc on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:00:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  my point is that (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  k9disc

                  this has always been with us.  It's not new.

                  What is new is that our expectations have been raised enormously.  The size of new homes has doubled in the past 30 years.  We think nothing of eating out 3 times a week.

                  My grandparents were dirt poor farmers and raised my parents during the depression.  They would look at what we have now and be astonished at the wealth.  

                  I'm just trying to put a long term perspective on our present problems.

              •  we have 50 MILLION people (0+ / 0-)

                we have 50 million people without healthcare. We have 50 TRILLION dollars in debt, we have a broken education system, a broken military, we have 1% of our entire country in jail, we have foreclosures at record rates, we have negative personal savings, we have companies no longer loyal to american citizens, we have unions falling apart, we have a steady increase of poverty,  sorry I aint seeing what you are seeing.

                •  70 years ago (0+ / 0-)

                  nobody had health insurance.  You wouldn't go back to the health care system we had then for anything.

                  The negative personal savings thing isn't real because it doesn't include 401k accounts

                  Companies were never very loyal to their workers.  They used them like sheep.  It was a patronizing set up and it did not have a lot of respect for the worker.

                  Unions are falling apart because they have priced themselves out of the business. And they have lost their integrity because they refuse to unionize where it is really needed (in agriculture and meat packing plants).  

                  The poverty level isn't increasing.  It has held pretty steady for the last 25 years (check the census numbers).

                  We have the most educated populace of any large country in the world.  We are free to move around as we want, and to say what we want.

                  In that way, we have it pretty good.

                  The other problems you mentioned, (the incarceration rates, and the unfunded future Medicare bills), now those are serious problems.  I am with you there.

                  But I'll say it again.  There was no golden age.  There have always been problems.  It is our increased expectations that have changed.  

                  •  never said (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    chigh

                    never said there was  golden age, I am just poiting out there was recessions, and trust, and robber barons, and e are headed back to that shit.

                    Companies use to create a product and around them entire communities would rise up.  This was how american cities grew. A large company would create jobs, and then more jobs would be created by those who created products that supported the work force etc etc.

                    Negative savings is real

                    Health insurance wasnt needed back when you could afford it.  Christ I remeber housecalls? do you.  I had my childhood doctor come to ME, and it didnt breal the bank.

                    Unions are being broken.  What do you think all this mexican immigration is about? Please ..

                    Merica is NOT even CLOSE to the top in education. not even CLOSE.  Our public schools alone have over 1 MILLION kids dropping out each year.

                    •  health insurance wasn't needed (0+ / 0-)

                      because (by and large) they couldn't do a damn thing for you.  Other than fix a broken leg, and deliver a baby, you were just as likely to get killed by a hospital as fixed up by one. You really think they could carry around much with them in that little black bag?  

                      Now we can sustain life for a really long time, and it's really damn expensive to do so.

                      As for the unions, they made their own graves.  

                      For the point on education, I was referring to the number of college graduates, not the overall education level (which does suck).

                      As for the savings rate, here is an excerpt for Businessweek.

                      MAY 14, 2001

                      Economic Trends
                      By Gene Koretz

                       STORY TOOLS
                      Printer-Friendly Version
                      E-Mail This Story

                      On This Page
                      A Phony Negative Savings Rate

                      A specter continues to haunt the U.S. economy. It is the fear that the low level of personal savings, which has turned negative for the first time since the Depression, heralds a massive retrenchment in consumption that will abruptly terminate the longest expansion in U.S. history.

                      Most experts link the huge slide in the savings rate from 5.6% in 1995 to -1% last quarter, to the stock market boom. As soaring stocks boosted wealth, consumers began to spend wildly on the assumption that share prices would move ever higher. Now that nearly $4 trillion in stock market capitalization has evaporated, economic Cassandras say it is only a question of time before households slash spending to get their savings back on track.

                      Not so, says economist Martin Barnes of the Bank Credit Analyst, an investment publication, who argues that consumers have not been on a spending binge. "Most people have not stopped saving," he says, "and that implies that coming cutbacks in spending will be far less drastic than those who focus on the negative savings rate believe."

                      In calculating the savings rate, notes Barnes, the government defines savings as what is left over after consumer spending is subtracted from aftertax personal income. For reasons related to accounting conventions, however, some items that households regard as income are not included in the government's income tally, while some that households ignore are. The upshot is a false picture of savings behavior.

                      A case in point is benefits from private pension plans, which have been growing at a 7% to 8% annual rate for years. Rather than counting such pension benefits as income (as Social Security benefits are), the statisticians count corporate contributions to pension funds. And because such contributions weren't needed as fund assets grew during the equity boom, the official measure of personal income was held down, making it appear that people were spending out of their savings.

                      Similarly, the government doesn't count realized capital gains as personal income because such gains are not related to income generated by current production. Yet such distinctions have little if any impact on people's behavior. Individuals tend to view capital gains as part of their incomes and to spend or save them as they see fit.

                      Clearly, counting pension benefits and capital gains as income alters the picture of savings behavior. Barnes calculates that such adjustments would not only add 10 percentage points to last year's savings rate but would also show little decline in savings in recent years (chart).

                      •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

                        the average age has only risen because of math.  we are now better at prenatal care so we have less infant deaths thus the number gets pushed.  As for hospital killing people,  well right now its like the number 2 killer in the US via Hospital error, so I doubt it was ever much worse.

                        as for house calls, you had a doctor whoknew your family, who would take tie for you, who knew you, today such treatment would be priceless, Instead we get a stranger with a prescription pad who gives you 2 minutes of his time, and even then he acts as if its a bother.

                        Please you have know idea how good it once was.

                        Dont even get me started about how FREE people were back just 40 years ago.  This is a police state in comparison.

                        •  Would you rather go back (0+ / 0-)

                          to the health care that was available 40 or 50 years ago?  I sure wouldn't.

                          And what is it that you can't do now that you could do then?  Other than drugs, and walking around airports?

                          •  are you kidding? seriously (0+ / 0-)

                            Healthcare of the 60s and 70 was at least available and affordable.

                            seriously are you fucking kidding me, I dont even know where to start.

                            You have to be a clueless 20 something to even say something so naive.

            •  we arent going down (0+ / 0-)

              as in collaspe, we are going down as in " shitty has been nation".  We arent a super power anymore.

          •  wrong (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            chigh

            i agree with you about there is no grand scheme, it was just stupidity, but I dont think this countries spreadsheet is very good at all, I actually think its downright scary.  Our governments spending like there is no tomorrow, we have a 3 trillion buck war we are putting on a credit card. We have a broken healthcare system. We have babybommer comig of aga and we as a country are liable for up to 50 TRILLION bucks of debt.  We add almost a trillion dollars a year now of more debt.

            Sorry that aint healthy AT ALL!!

            Deficits do matter, only idiots think otherwise. Anyone who has ever run a credit card will tell you how stupid it was to do so.

      •  Ding ding ding (0+ / 0-)

        "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

        by The Termite on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:17:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not sure there is no scheme at all (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        k9disc, bablhous

        Laws being changed by Clinton (Glass-Steagall) and Bush 43 (bankruptcy, others) have favored greedy bankers and corporations have they not?

      •  And seems to me that bail outs (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        bablhous, PsychoSavannah

        like S&L bail out years ago, and infusions of public money into the banks now (in UK for example) and through our Federal Reserve to US banks/lenders in the form of lower interest rates, seem to me to take more money out of the public's pocket to cover the asses of the greedy speculators (banks, mortgage companies) who created their own losses over time by going for the fast money in short term.  Lower interest rates hurt us regular folks, as our CDs, MM's and bonds aren't worth as much...

        Please comment.  I am trying to learn about all this stuff and appreciate everyone's insights here.

        •  corporate welfare (0+ / 0-)

          Here's the deal:  some guys who are capable of making big campaign contributions invent financial shenanigans that are complex, hard to track, and which, while not exactly being moral and ethical, may actually not be illegal.  They take some risks--free market competition for investment favors the delusionally optimistic.  When the risks come home to roost, they get a bail out.  They've got friends in high places; their operations are "too big to fail."  The necessary debt repudiation is forced onto the mom and pop investors.  What the finance impresarios face:  returns on the upside; downside, all risk of loss covered by Federal help.  You'd be a fool, or a moral person with clear vision, not to gamble and gamble big.  So what we have is a result of

          greed; flawed theory; campaign finance; good old free-market initiative; rational choice within a flawed system; differential distribution of political power and influence; lack of knowledge, lack of moral wisdom.  

          Let's fix it.

    •  Occam's razor (12+ / 0-)

      I'm on the inside and I can tell you that the brightest minds in mortgage banking have been focused on one thing, largely -- making as much money as they can.  The meltdown doesn't really further that goal.  More professionals lost than gained, and I mean by a WIDE margin.  Had they been smarter, and more prudent, they would have tempered some of their greedier impulses and found a way to sustain a profitable industry, rather than run it into the ground as they have.

      "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

      by The Termite on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:16:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ah! They need better macroeconomic theory (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        The Termite, empathy

        so, let me ask:  can you spread the word?  Maybe if you explain the pain to them, they'll get behind reforms that fix this.

      •  Too much desire for short term gains (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        neroden

        by mortgage folks, do you think?

        Seems to me this is a common theme these days in many businesses.  The get-rich-quick/greed impulse causes people to sacrifice their long term good and the good of others.

        Your take?

        •  definitely part of it (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          don fong, neroden, Quicksilver2723

          But even those whose vision of the economy isn't directed toward short term gains--even economists, who are supposed to conceptualize the system (and who then step right up and give policy advice--get it wrong.  Neoclassical economists continue to think and act as if growth in material wealth can be infinite on a finite planet.  Go figure.  They're not exactly out for short-term profits, but they definitely have not got a clear vision of the long-range interest of the human species.  They've let that invisible hand get clapped over their eyes...

        •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

          I think that's true.

          "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

          by The Termite on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:11:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I've written this a lot over the last 3 years or (0+ / 0-)

      so...

      I think that the goal is to break it now, while the filthy rich have all the power. They have great wealth, great leverage in government, and a ton of assets.

      If they wait for this consumer economy to crumble it'll take 20-30 years, and the filthy rich will lose everything and become the pariahs of history.

      If they break it now, they lose money but gain marketshare.

      Sharing and Caring are for Commies! They should be illegal. Drop by and support the Human Agenda

      by k9disc on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:57:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good Post (9+ / 0-)

    Overall I'd say this is a good post with an interesting premise. There are two holes in the analysis, though. The first is that in the end when you write that equation you assume that the economy is in something that resembles a thermodynamic equilibrium. Most would consider such a premise laughable, but I'm willing to entertain the argument if you can provide some evidence that these variables are not chaotic or if you limit it to some kind of average. The second is, well, I can't decide whether the second is a virtue or a hole. Economists tend to focus on "value" because it is a good predictor of human behavior. Try to ask what people value or why and the classical economist turns his nose up at anything harder to understand than material gain. Point being, economics is the unacknowledged bastard child of psychology and engineering, and what I like about this analysis is that it focuses attention on the engineering (ie physically constrained) side of it. What I disagree with is your definition of debt - debt is simply some action that a person has agreed to perform at or by a certain time in the future. Just like there's no such thing as a purchase - there is a trade, an exchange.

    Interesting to ponder. Sorry if this post is somewhat broken and incomplete - I turn a little incoherent pretty easily when I miss sleep. :)

    •  Nice Comment (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BlackGriffen

      Just like there's no such thing as a purchase - there is a trade, an exchange.

      Which, depending on your time frame, makes it a zero-sum game. Ergo, those pesky thermodynamics.

      Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

      by Pluto on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:12:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  a big hole (4+ / 0-)

      that I see is that I didn't talk at all about the limits to growth, which I covered a bit in that other diary that I linked.  Assuming that we CAN have sustainable growth (and I think we have to de-grow in some ways before we get there), then we (our economy) can live in sustainable balance with nature; but yes, it's not a "thermodynamic equilibrium."  An economy is like a living thing, which does NOT live in thermodynamic equilibrium (until it dies):  it sucks in low entropy and leaves a high entropy wake.  (Luck for us, the earth isn't a closed thermodynamic system, but takes in energy all the time.  Sunlight.)

      Debt.  Mmmm.  What is it?  ink on a page, a handshake, a promise.  But if it is undertaken with the promise of paying interest, it is in effect a promise to pay back in the future more than was borrwed today; and money, in any form, is a claim on the real wealth of the community that accepts it.  So I disagree and continue to see debt as a claim on future goods and services.  ANd it seems useful to distinguish barter (trade of one valuable good or service for another) from purchases (exchange of a token that represents a claim on goods and services for a good or service.)  Money economies can do things that barter economies can't--like have a subprime mortgage meltdown.

      •  Debt can fuel growth (3+ / 0-)

        So the future wealth that it is borrowed against is in some degree determined by the having the debt in the first place.  This feedback makes it difficult to determine the line between debt retarding growth and debt increasing growth.  The debt only needs to be repudiated if it grows faster than the wealth that it is creating.

        For instance, the housing boom was fueled by debt.  This resulted in real wealth in the form of new houses.  Unfortunately, people saw the growth as an opportunity to make money by flipping those houses without really improving them.  House flipping is a simple Ponzi scheme by which the profits of early investors come from later investors with no creation of real wealth.  The flipping craze artificially increased demand, which pushed the growth beyond sustainable levels and caused the market to eventually collapse.  While much ado is made about predatory ARMS and other lending practices, in most cases these would not have caused problems if the growth had been sustainable.

        So debt and growth and wealth aren't really zero-sum:  they can all increase together.  There are limits to that, however, so it is still a min-max problem of finding the maximum wealth and growth with the least amount of repudiated debt.

        •  a classic bubble (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          BlackGriffen, trashablanca

          Well said, and I agree:

          House flipping is a simple Ponzi scheme by which the profits of early investors come from later investors with no creation of real wealth.  The flipping craze artificially increased demand, which pushed the growth beyond sustainable levels and caused the market to eventually collapse.

      •  Not Since we Left the Gold Standard (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        trashablanca

        Money is a token whose value is propped up by outside influences. It used to be that money was a symbol for a debt owed by a large local entity, and that debt was measured in real goods. Since we left the gold standard, money isn't a claim to anything. There are a few things that prop up the value of money now:

        1. Psychological inertia - a.k.a. tradition, institutions, etc.
        2. Taxes - the government accepts payment in government issued money, so everyone who has to pay taxes needs money.
        3. Payment - the government pays a whole lot of people in money, so everyone who recieves government money from the government very much wants to think that it's valuable.

        Of those three, only the second combined with the government's ability to print money permits control of the value of money and props it up against potential decline. So, you might say that the value of money is set by the services government provides (law, order, roads, social security, etc)in exchange for which the government demands on a continuing basis money it used to make all those things happen. It's a system that works as long as the state has the power to throw people in jail and confiscate property for failing to pay taxes.

        And the debate over the nature of debt and purchases is academic, really, as long as it is understood that debt is, at most, a type of promise to do something in the future and purchases are a type of trade involving the exchange of debt tokens.

  •  Has Anyone Turned on the TV Today? nt (0+ / 0-)

    Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

    by Pluto on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:09:49 PM PDT

  •  Some adjustments (6+ / 0-)