Daily Kos

Senator Obama Debate This: Exit Iraq

Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 03:56:57 PM PDT

I was heartened to hear Barack say after the last primary that he looks forward to a debate with Hilary on foreign policy. I think that would be a great way to either highlight their differences or find that he shares some of her plans. So far it looks like they’re quite different on the question of exiting Iraq.  Hillary has put forth a clear plan. Obama has said that we’ll leave as carefully as we went in carelessly.  Let’s look at where they each stand.

Hillary has made it clear we’re getting out, starting as soon as she takes office.  She’ll call the military leaders together and ask for the logistics, what we have there, where it is, how to schedule withdrawal so we can get out our equipment and people safely. She’s drawn her lines: No occupation; no permanent bases.  All Americans, military, and civilians and all Iraqis who’ve put their lives on the line by helping us.  She’ll end the no-bid contracts and open them to international investment such that others have a financial stake in Iraq’s success.   She’ll ban private armies. She’ll leave some troops along the border, to provide a buffer to Iraq, but she won’t reinvade.  She'll begin immediate talks with Europe and Iraq's neighbors, but if they still want to stay out of it, she'll exit anyway.  

Obama has cosponsored a bill that would legalize private armies and he won’t rule out leaving them and American civilians in Iraq.  According to his ex- foreign policy advisor Black he hasn’t yet met with military officers on the question of Iraq, he hasn’t an idea of what an orderly exit will entail, and he can’t commit to what he’ll do given that the facts on the ground may have changed by the time he takes office.  

Hillary says that we know enough already, that she doesn't think the Iraqi government will do enough to stabilize things politically while we're there, and that if they somehow did, all the more reason to leave quickly. She thinks that when we leave there may be an uptick in violence, but that the violence will have an end.  She thinks that while we’re seen as occupiers, either with our own military or with private armies guarding American business, that the violence directed as us will have no end.

So, my question to Barack is, if we’re still there with private armies, how will that save our treasure from being squandered in an endless war?  What facts on the ground might lead you to continue the occupation?  

Poll

we need to exit Iraq ASAP

85%24 votes
14%4 votes

| 28 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Iraq, Exit, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 136 comments

  •  tips for out of Iraq n/t (8+ / 0-)

    Hillary - Alternative Energy

    by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 03:58:34 PM PDT

    •  You are so right anna (5+ / 0-)

      We need Hillary's plan.  Realists know it may change but we have to at least have a plan for the exit and not staying with contractors for 16 months or longer

      I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person

      by NewHampster on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:01:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'll let the man himself respond: (0+ / 0-)

      We are the ones we've been waiting for.

      by Same As It Ever Was on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:02:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oops . . . (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        skrekk

        posted to quickly.

        "This war was unwise which is why I opposed it in 2002 and that is why I will bring this war to an end in 2009. Now just one thing—one note I have to make on this. I haven’t spent too much time talking about my opponent Senator Clinton or Senator McCain for that matter.
        But I do have to say this. She was quoted either this morning or last night in Mississippi because one of my advisors had said that in a interview overseas that well Senator Obama would not... he has given a time frame for withdrawal, but obviously it would be subject to decisions and the situation at the time.

        And so, Senator Clinton used this to try to imply that I wasn’t serious about bringing this war to an end. I just have to mention this because I don’t want anybody here to be confused.

        I was opposed to this war in 2002. If it had been up to me we would have never been in this war. It was because of George Bush with an assist from Hillary Clinton and John McCain that we entered into this war. A war that should have never been authorized, a war that should have never been waged.

        I have been against it in 2002, 2003, 2004, 5, 6, 7, 8 and I will bring this war to an end in 2009.

        So don’t be confused. Don’t be confused. When Senator Clinton is not even willing to acknowledge that she voted for war. She says she voted for diplomacy despite the title that said authorization to use U.S. Armed Forces in Iraq. So I don’t want to play politics on this issue because she doesn’t have standing to question my position on this issue.

        Now what is true is that I want to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in. And I want to make sure that our troops are protected and safe as we are withdrawing them and I don’t want us to see Iraq collapse which is why I have put out the most detailed plan in terms of making sure that we have humanitarian aid in place and making sure that we are working with the Iraqis to negotiate diplomatically inside the country as well as the regional powers there and that we have a international commission to monitor against war crimes that might occur as we are pulling out.

        So we have to be very careful but we’re going to end this war. And when we end this war what I want to be able to do is go before the world community and say America is back. America is back and we are ready to lead once again. We are ready to lead. We are ready to lead on the issues that matter."

        We are the ones we've been waiting for.

        by Same As It Ever Was on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:03:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  but what does it mean? (0+ / 0-)

          leaving in private armies, or really ending that occupation. He claims Hillary won't admit she voted for war, which makes her incapable of ending it. Even if what he believes he knows about her were true, it has nothing to do with getting out. And it doesn't mean that he can do it however he likes without telling the voters either, he should be as clear as she is.  Then we could decide which plan we thinks makes more sense to us, we have brains too.  We don't check our brains at the door, he's for bottom up, so he has to say.  At least I think he ought to.  

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:46:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  when IS obama saying we get out of iraq? (4+ / 0-)

    Power on Obama's Iraq plan: "best case scenario"

    For all the chatter about Obama adviser Samantha Power's calling Clinton a "monster," another set of remarks made on her book tour in the United Kingdom may be equally threatening to the Obama campaign: Comments in a BBC interview that express a lack of confidence that Obama will be able to carry through his plan to withdraw troops from Iraq within 16 months.

    "He will, of course, not rely on some plan that he’s crafted as a presidential candidate or a U.S. Senator," she said at one point in the interview.

    Power downplayed Obama's commitment to quick withdrawal from Iraq on Hard Talk, a program that often exceeds any of the U.S. talk shows in the rigor of its grillings. She was challenged on Obama's Iraq plan, as it appears on his website, which says that Obama "will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months."

    "What he’s actually said, after meeting with the generals and meeting with intelligence professionals, is that you – at best case scenario – will be able to withdraw one to two combat brigades each month. That’s what they’re telling him. He will revisit it when he becomes president," Power says.


    link - Ben Smith

    Hillary 2008 - Flying Monkey Squadron 283

    by campskunk on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:04:07 PM PDT

  •  Looks like a no-brainer (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Lying eyes, anna shane, NewHampster

    Hillary has a definite plan, and Obama (once again) just appears vague, uncertain, and needs time to figure it all out.

    http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/18937/2240830470101620085S425x425Q85.jpg

    by Izarradar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:05:01 PM PDT

  •  LIAR! Hillary has no plan. period. (7+ / 0-)

    "So I've said that I will ask the Joint Chiefs and the secretary of defense and my security advisers the very first day I'm president, to begin to draw up such a plan so that we can withdraw."

    Hillary at the LA Debate, 1.31.08

    ► She has no current plan.  By her own words, she won't even draw up a plan until she consults with pentagon, upon becoming President.  

    ► By her own words, even if she's elected, she'll wait until she's inaugurated, before asking for a plan to withdraw.

    Oooops!!  


    *

    *

    *

    McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

    by Al Rodgers on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:08:24 PM PDT

    •  just the logistics (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Lying eyes, NewHampster

      she's cosponsored bills to outlaw private armies, and she says this out loud.  She doesn't know what's there or even who's there, she has to find out and have them schedule the withdrawal to keep our troops safe on the way out.  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:10:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Plus she has sent a letter to the Joint (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Lying eyes, anna shane

        Chiefs to begin a plan for withdrawal.  That has been at least a month or more ago that she did this.

        "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

        by Owllwoman on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:13:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Proof she has NO plans (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Nellcote, skrekk, Same As It Ever Was

          thank you.

          she sent a letter asking for withdrawal plans.

          She has NONE of her own.

          And this is admirable.  

          But that asking for plans and saying I will write a plan upon becoming president does &#8800 having a current withdrawal plan on her desk.

          Why is that so hard to accept.

          She wants to withdraw from Iraq.  She has laid out some goals and she has asked to pentagon to begin drawing up plans.  But she has not come up with a completed plan, herself.  In fact, from her words, she won't even begin writing her own plan until after the inauguration.

          Prove me wrong.  Show me her plan.  Link it.

          McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

          by Al Rodgers on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:30:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You are a LIAR !! (5+ / 0-)

        "So far it looks like they’re quite different on the question of exiting Iraq.  Hillary has put forth a clear plan. "

        Those are your words. They are FALSE!

        There is no plan.  

        Prove me wrong, add a link to her plan. You can't!  It doesn't exit.

        Now, that said, Clinton has said she wants to withdraw US troops from Iraq.  That is an admirable goal.  But a  goal &#8800 a current, existing withdrawal plan.

        McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

        by Al Rodgers on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:16:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  calm down, al. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          anna shane

          that's the operational plan- what troops move where, and in what  sequence so they can cover each other. military people need to be in charge of drawing that kind of stuff up - unless you're lyndon johnson.

          Hillary 2008 - Flying Monkey Squadron 283

          by campskunk on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:29:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What is her plan? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            DaveV, Nellcote

            as a strong supporter, you should be able to prove a link to her plan.

            by her own words, she says she doesn't have a plan.  That the plan will come after her inauguration.  

            I give her great credit.  She wants to withdraw.  She's as the pentagon to draw up plans.  

            But I for anyone to say "Hillary has put forth a clear plan," is not true.

            If a "clear plan" exists, it would be a snap to link it.  

            If a "clear plan" exists, it would be a snap to reproduce.

            If someone want to go after Obama on Iraq, fine, but it can't begin with false basis.  No current plans exist, let alone a "clear plan."

            And I would expect nothing less, if it was the other way around.  if someone said, Obama has a "clear plan" on student loans and Clinton does not, then that obama supporter better be ready to show the goods - to link/reproduce the plan he/she is touting.

            McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

            by Al Rodgers on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:39:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  sorry- making dinner. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              taters, anna shane

              ...and anna doesn't know how to do links. hillary's plan is right on her webpage. i'll paste it for you.

              Starting Phased Redeployment within Hillary's First Days in Office: The most important part of Hillary's plan is the first: to end our military engagement in Iraq's civil war and immediately start bringing our troops home. As president, one of Hillary's first official actions would be to convene the Joint Chiefs of Staff, her Secretary of Defense, and her National Security Council. She would direct them to draw up a clear, viable plan to bring our troops home starting with the first 60 days of her Administration. She would also direct the Department of Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs to prepare a comprehensive plan to provide the highest quality health care and benefits to every service member -- including every member of the National Guard and Reserves -- and their families.

              Securing Stability in Iraq as we Bring our Troops Home. As president, Hillary would focus American aid efforts during our redeployment on stabilizing Iraq, not propping up the Iraqi government. She would direct aid to the entities -- whether governmental or non-governmental -- most likely to get it into the hands of the Iraqi people. She would also support the appointment of a high level U.N. representative -- similar to those appointed in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Kosovo -- to help broker peace among the parties in Iraq.

              A New Intensive Diplomatic Initiative in the Region.
              In her first days in office, Hillary would convene a regional stabilization group composed of key allies, other global powers, and all of the states bordering Iraq. The- mission of this group would be to develop and implement a strategy to create a stable Iraq. It would have three specific goals:

                 * Non-interference. Working with the U.N. representative, the group would work to convince Iraq's neighbors to refrain from getting involved in the civil war.
                 * Mediation. The group would attempt to mediate among the different sectarian groups in Iraq with the goal of attaining compromises on fundamental points of disputes.
                 * Reconstruction funding. The members of the group would hold themselves and other countries to their past pledges to provide funding to Iraq and will encourage additional contributions to meet Iraq's extensive needs.

              As our forces redeploy out of Iraq, Hillary would also organize a multi-billion dollar international effort -- funded by a wide range of donor states -- under the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to address the needs of Iraqi refugees. And as we replace military force with diplomacy and global leadership, Hillary will not lose sight of our very real strategic interests in the region. She would devote the resources we need to fight terrorism and will order specialized units to engage in narrow and targeted operations against al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations in the region.

              link

              Hillary 2008 - Flying Monkey Squadron 283

              by campskunk on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:16:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hillary's plan (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                skrekk

                Is to continue to impose a solution on Iraq from outside. Let me quote her:

                "In her first days in office, Hillary would convene a regional stabilization group composed of key allies, other global powers, and all of the states bordering Iraq. The- mission of this group would be to develop and implement a strategy to create a stable Iraq."

                What's missing here? ANYBODY FROM IRAQ!!!

                Here's Obama:

                "Iraq needs a new Constitutional convention that would include representatives from all levels of Iraqi society - in and out of government. The United Nations should play a central role in convening and participating in this convention, which should not adjourn until a new accord on national reconciliation is reached. To reconcile, the Iraqis must also meet key political benchmarks outside of the Constitutional process, including new local elections and revising debaathification."

                As to the other parts of Clinton's plan, I don't really think there's too much daylight between them:

                "We need to launch the most aggressive diplomatic effort in recent history to reach a new compact in the region. This effort should include all of Iraq's neighbors, and we should also bring in the United Nations Security Council. All of us have a stake in Iraq's stability. It's time to make this less about what America is trying to do for Iraq, and more about what the world can do with Iraq.

                This compact must secure Iraq's borders, keep neighbors from meddling, isolate al Qaeda, and support Iraq's unity. That means helping our Turkish and Kurdish friends reach an understanding. That means pressing Sunni states like Saudi Arabia to stop the flow of foreign fighters into Iraq, increase their financial support of reconstruction efforts, and encourage Iraqi Sunnis to reconcile with their fellow Iraqis. And that means turning the page on the Bush-Cheney policy of not talking to Syria and Iran.

                ...

                "The final part of my plan is a major international initiative to address Iraq's humanitarian crisis.

                President Bush likes to warn of the dire consequences of ending the war. He warns of rising Iranian influence, but that has already taken place. He warns of growing terrorism, but that has already taken place. And he warns of huge movements of refugees and mass sectarian killing, but that has already taken place. These are not the consequences of a future withdrawal. They are the reality of Iraq's present. They are a direct consequence of waging this war. Two million Iraqis are displaced in their own country. Another two million Iraqis have fled as refugees to neighboring countries. This mass movement of people is a threat to the security of the Middle East and to our common humanity. We have a strategic interest - and a moral obligation - to act.

                The President would have us believe there are two choices: keep all of our troops in Iraq or abandon these Iraqis. I reject that choice. We cannot continue to put this burden on our troops alone. I'm tired of this notion that we either fight foolish wars or retreat from the world. We are better than that as a nation. "

                I'm siding with Senator Obama.

                "Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising."
                ~~ Mark Twain

                by Ddeele on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:40:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  the iraqi parliament... (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  anna shane

                  ...has been meeting continuously to try to accomplish the goals of obama's constitutional convention. they'll stall until the cows come home, and obama's going to wait for them. good luck with that.

                  Hillary 2008 - Flying Monkey Squadron 283

                  by campskunk on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:53:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So you and Hillary are saying... (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    skrekk

                    that Clinton's "Regional Stabilization Group" composed of "key allies, other global powers, and all of the states bordering Iraq" can do it better. When goal #1 is "non-interference".

                    That's bound to work.

                    "Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising."
                    ~~ Mark Twain

                    by Ddeele on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:59:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  okay, that's scary (0+ / 0-)

                  he's going to try to manage it better? That is really not a good idea, they do not want occupation and there is no way they'll progress if that means we'll stay longer. That shows a complete misunderstanding of that nation.  They think it needs to be violent so we'll leave,  there is no way they'd believe we'd leave our oil interests and strategic position if they did better. Now that's naive.  

                  Hillary - Alternative Energy

                  by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:56:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I really tried (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    skrekk

                    to construct a respectful response to this, but it's just such a a trainwreck I don't know where to start. The best I can do is quote Obama again:

                    Iraq’s leaders have put off reconciling and taking on greater security responsibility despite our efforts to pressure them to act. Drawing down our troop presence is the best way to finally apply real pressure on the Iraqi government to make the political accommodations necessary to heal the nation's sectarian rifts, and to take on more responsibility for providing security to their people.

                    "Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising."
                    ~~ Mark Twain

                    by Ddeele on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 06:17:42 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I think leaving is the only way (0+ / 0-)

                      that puppet government will have to fall and iraqis will have to figure out how to make one that works.  they're put in by us, and they're protected by us, and they're paid by us and they have little to no credibility with their people. the protection, whatever there is, is provided by local gangs, and the country is divided into armed enclaves, ethnic cleansing has already taken place. it's a mess, and pretending we can encourage them to do better if we draw down troops is playing into someone's hands. We just need to leave.  And the only chance we have for any other nation getting involved is if we take our business interests and our private armies with us. there will be a bloodbath after we leave, but in time things will get better.  This way is a slow decent to hell.  

                      Hillary - Alternative Energy

                      by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 06:32:32 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So why on earth (0+ / 0-)

                        are you supporting Hillary, instead of the ONE candidate standing who has put specific cards on the table about withdrawing from Iraq?

                        All Combat Troops Redeployed by 2009:
                        Barack Obama would immediately begin redeploying American troops from Iraq. The withdrawal would be strategic and phased, directed by military commanders on the ground and done in consultation with the Iraqi government. Troops would be removed from secure areas first, with troops remaining longer in more volatile areas. The drawdown would begin immediately with one to two combat brigades redeploying each month and all troops engaged in combat operations out by the end of next year.

                        "Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising."
                        ~~ Mark Twain

                        by Ddeele on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 06:42:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  just combat troops? (0+ / 0-)

                          There is more there than our troops, there is also American business interests with their no-bid spoils of war contracts.  Where does he stand on getting everyone and everything out?  

                          Hillary - Alternative Energy

                          by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 08:32:07 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly - she has no existing-standing plan (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Ddeele

                The most important part of Hillary's plan is the first: to end our military engagement in Iraq's civil war and immediately start bringing our troops home. As president, one of Hillary's first official actions would be to convene the Joint Chiefs of Staff, her Secretary of Defense, and her National Security Council. She would direct them to draw up a clear, viable plan to bring our troops home starting with the first 60 days of her Administration.

                See this isn't a "plan," rather it's a goal.

                She has goals, but as of yet, no plans exist, they haven't even written a single page.

                By her own words, the "clear, viable plan" doesn't exit.  It won't be written until after her inauguration. Even if she's elected in early November, she wait until late January to start the process.

                Calling a goal, "a plan", doesn't make it "a plan."  A plan is a specific set of steps designed to achieve a goal.

                If you asked Hillary tonight, "can I see your plan," she would respond, "well, we won't start writing our plan until after I become President."

                If Barack Obama said very same thing, that he "wanted to end military engagement in Iraq's civil war and immediately start bringing our troops home," the first thing Hillary's camp would say is, "okay, that's a great goal; what's your plan?"

                And if Obama responded, "well, I'll ask my staff to come up with withdrawl plans, the minute I take office, 10 weeks after my election," Clinton's team would rightly reply, "you have no plans."

                All I'm saying is she has Goals, but she hasn't devised an underlying road map. Therefore, it is wrong to say and or imply Clinton has "clear plans" ready to go, but my Obama doesn't.

                McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

                by Al Rodgers on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 06:26:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Why such anger and vitriol? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          anna shane

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:39:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What a dick head! You're sure quick with that (1+ / 1-)

          Recommended by:
          anna shane
          Hidden by:
          Al Rodgers

          LIAR !! button, Mr. Rodgers, that"s always a good way to get an intelligent discussion started, huh?

          Don't sell out John! Damn, too late, lost another to the dark side!

          by ichibon on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:08:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I don't know what you call it (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Lying eyes, anna shane, Owllwoman

      But to me this indicates a "plan:"

      She’ll call the military leaders together and ask for the logistics, what we have there, where it is, how to schedule withdrawal so we can get out our equipment and people safely. She’s drawn her lines: No occupation; no permanent bases.  All Americans, military, and civilians and all Iraqis who’ve put their lives on the line by helping us.  She’ll end the no-bid contracts and open them to international investment such that others have a financial stake in Iraq’s success.   She’ll ban private armies. She’ll leave some troops along the border, to provide a buffer to Iraq, but she won’t reinvade.  She'll begin immediate talks with Europe and Iraq's neighbors, but if they still want to stay out of it, she'll exit anyway.  

      And by the way, it's okay to disagree withsomeone without resorting to name calling.

      http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/18937/2240830470101620085S425x425Q85.jpg

      by Izarradar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:12:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Aboce comment is for Al Rodgers (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        anna shane

        http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/18937/2240830470101620085S425x425Q85.jpg

        by Izarradar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:13:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And that's... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        DaveV, skrekk, Same As It Ever Was

        exactly the same thing that Samantha Power said Obama will do.

        I guess he's just supposed to draw up a plan on a cocktail napkin and stick to that plan irregardless of any new information that he's presented with....

        That's a great way to do things...

      •  a goal ≠ a plan (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        skrekk, Empower Ink

        saying you will asking someone else to draw up a road map, in the future, contingent on taking office does &#8800 a current existing road map.

        there are no written plans currently in existence.  None.  Not a single page, not even a post-it note.  

        You can't link an Clinton policy plan on this subject, because it doesn't exist.  

        Prove me wrong, find a Clinton policy plan and link it.

        You can't - it doesn't exist.

        Clinton has no current written plans on withdrawing from Iraq.  By her own words, such plans would only be written after taking office.

        McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

        by Al Rodgers on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:24:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you're mixing plans (0+ / 0-)

          a withdrawal plan can be the logistics, and a plan can be what she'll demand they include. Hillary thinks we've had no gains over Iraq, only losses.  She thinks we need to cut our losses. If there was a gain it was arresting Saddam, and that was over years ago.  

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:27:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  two things. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Nellcote, skrekk

            we've had this argument before, you and me, so i'll recap. in the past whenever Hillary's hawkishness has come up, you have said something to the effect of "Obama is no better - he has voted to sustain the war, to fund it." So I put that back on the table - Hillary has done the same, so your argument that somehow she has believed this war has only been losses, no gains, does not work if you believe funding the war means supporting it.

            Secondly, both candidates have goals of military withdrawal from Iraq. From Obama's web site and legislative record

            "In January 2007, he introduced legislation in the Senate to remove all of our combat troops from Iraq by March 2008."

            So it sounds like he wants our troops out of there in his first 100 days.

            Cure This : Let's talk about health justice

            by nalin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:32:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I challenge you to back it up. (4+ / 0-)

            As a well versed supporter, you should have no trouble producing a link to her plan.

            I give her great credit.  She wants to withdraw.  She's asked the pentagon to draw up plans.  She says she wishes she could take back her Iraq war vote.

            But you to say "Hillary has put forth a clear plan," I challenge you to back it up - to prove it.

            If a "clear plan" exists, it would be a snap to link it.  

            If a "clear plan" exists, it would be a snap to reproduce.

            But you can't.  IT DOESN'T EXIST.  IT'S A FAIRY TALE.

            McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

            by Al Rodgers on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:49:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Not a single link in this diary (3+ / 0-)

      •  let's get them into comments? (0+ / 0-)

        what links are you wanting?  The bill he cosponsored?  

        Hillary - Alternative Energy

        by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:17:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/iraq/ (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        anna shane

        Starting Phased Redeployment within Hillary's First Days in Office: The most important part of Hillary's plan is the first: to end our military engagement in Iraq's civil war and immediately start bringing our troops home. As president, one of Hillary's first official actions would be to convene the Joint Chiefs of Staff, her Secretary of Defense, and her National Security Council. She would direct them to draw up a clear, viable plan to bring our troops home starting with the first 60 days of her Administration. She would also direct the Department of Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs to prepare a comprehensive plan to provide the highest quality health care and benefits to every service member -- including every member of the National Guard and Reserves -- and their families.

        Securing Stability in Iraq as we Bring our Troops Home. As president, Hillary would focus American aid efforts during our redeployment on stabilizing Iraq, not propping up the Iraqi government. She would direct aid to the entities -- whether governmental or non-governmental -- most likely to get it into the hands of the Iraqi people. She would also support the appointment of a high level U.N. representative -- similar to those appointed in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Kosovo -- to help broker peace among the parties in Iraq.

        A New Intensive Diplomatic Initiative in the Region. In her first days in office, Hillary would convene a regional stabilization group composed of key allies, other global powers, and all of the states bordering Iraq. The- mission of this group would be to develop and implement a strategy to create a stable Iraq. It would have three specific goals:

        Non-interference. Working with the U.N. representative, the group would work to convince Iraq's neighbors to refrain from getting involved in the civil war.

        Mediation. The group would attempt to mediate among the different sectarian groups in Iraq with the goal of attaining compromises on fundamental points of disputes.

        Reconstruction funding. The members of the group would hold themselves and other countries to their past pledges to provide funding to Iraq and will encourage additional contributions to meet Iraq's extensive needs.

        As our forces redeploy out of Iraq, Hillary would also organize a multi-billion dollar international effort -- funded by a wide range of donor states -- under the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to address the needs of Iraqi refugees. And as we replace military force with diplomacy and global leadership, Hillary will not lose sight of our very real strategic interests in the region. She would devote the resources we need to fight terrorism and will order specialized units to engage in narrow and targeted operations against al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations in the region.

        http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/18937/2240830470101620085S425x425Q85.jpg

        by Izarradar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:21:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Retriever, link below... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        anna shane

        Regarding Hillary's plan for Iraq.

        http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/18937/2240830470101620085S425x425Q85.jpg

        by Izarradar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:22:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  How grown up is this response?? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      anna shane

      you wonder why Obama fans have a reputation for being a little "over the top"??

      She has a plan, she just knows that the picture changes when you get in office. And she's right. She is very aware that there are things she and Obama cannot know right now. You doubt this?? Anyone who is naive enough to think they can lay out the plan without first getting the latest intel and all the reports that even congress doens't get, is exactly that, naive.

      The greatest gift you can contribute to the goal of world peace is to heal.

      by wavpeac on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:15:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  agreed, but (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        skrekk

        it is the diarist's assertion (both in the diary and in her comments) that Clinton has a plan and Obama doesn't, that Clinton has some sort of progressive stance on the war that rivals Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel, and Obama is somehow Cheney-lite. But a quick glance at both candidates' web sites reveals that their plans for removal of troops from Iraq in phases is actually quite similar. In fact, their exit plans are really quite the same. A firm "plan" would make no sense. That they both have similar goals in wanting us out of there is good though.

        Cure This : Let's talk about health justice

        by nalin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:20:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  no, I gave what I think his plan is (0+ / 0-)

          and it isn't clear. And I drew a difference between an actual exit plan that is logistic and that she will carry out, and something that may lead Obama to think that we could stay there and occupy the country and I don't know if he thinks that's possible or a good idea, I know she thinks it's impossible and a bad idea.  And I don't know why he wants to keep private armies. They cost more than the military ,why wouldn't he just use that money for our military?  Does anyone have more guesses, that we could ask him about?  

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:51:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You keep using the phrase "keep private armies" (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            nalin

            either you aren't aware of Obama's position on this, or you're intentionally misrepresenting it.  Which is it?

            •  he hasn't ruled it out? (0+ / 0-)

              he's moved to bring them under law?  They get paid three times as much as our real military, it's privatization?  You should be asking him about these holes in his plan.  

              Hillary - Alternative Energy

              by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 08:34:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Explain what the "holes in his plan" are. (0+ / 0-)

                Obama's bill is very specific, and has bipartisan support.  It does not address the issue of ending the war, or ending the use of subcontractors, but it does enforce the rule of law.  So far all you've come up with are non sequiturs.  Please explain how their pay rate, or the fact that they are private companies, are "holes in his plan" - which solely addresses how those contractors are governed.  It is not intended to address structural issues in the army, or pay or deployment ratios between the army and contractors.  I'm not aware of Clinton authoring any such legislation either.

                Read Jeremy Scahill's book if you want to learn more about the use of contractors.  Obama's bill is the first - and so far only - piece of legislation addressing the problems that have arisen from the use of subcontractors.  The problems detailed by Scahill go far beyond what Obaba's bill addresses, but his bill is an important start.  Clinton has done absolutely nothing in this regard (other than make a statement which will go nowhere), despite her seat on the Senate Armed Services committee.  So which one has made a real effort here, eh?

                •  that's what i mean (0+ / 0-)

                  the holes are what he has not yet addressed.  There is a difference between subcontractors and private armies, which are kind of subcontractors, but the kind that shoots.  

                  Hillary - Alternative Energy

                  by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:46:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Well, I for one... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cookiesandmilk, Ianb007, skrekk, Fogiv

    do not believe anything Mrs. Clinton says. She has proven to me that she will say anything to get elected. She voted for the Iraq War and still has never disavowed her vote.

  •  * (0+ / 0-)

    "When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon." -Thomas Paine

    by Fogiv on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:09:29 PM PDT

  •  As long as Blackwater stays in Iraq, (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    anna shane, Izarradar, NewHampster

    they will terrorize and try to control the Iraqi Gov. and people.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:11:03 PM PDT

  •  Hillary's Military men say we're staying... (4+ / 0-)

    Kean told the New York Sun this past weekend: "I have no doubts whatsoever that if she were president in January '09 she would not act irresponsibly and issue orders to conduct an immediate withdrawal from Iraq, regardless of the consequences, and squander the gains that have been made."

    He also said Clinton "generally supported the surge strategy in the sense she wanted it to succeed but she was skeptical about its chances."

    http://www.nysun.com/...

    John McCain votes against Children's Healthcare

    by Hope08 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:12:26 PM PDT

    •  who is Kean (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Lying eyes, Owllwoman, Izarradar

      does he speak for Hillary?  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:13:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Jack Keane. (0+ / 0-)

        a retired 4 star general. it says so in paragraph two of the link provided. i'm not arguing either point. i'm just saying that info is readily available in paragraph 2 of the link Hope08 posted.

        Cure This : Let's talk about health justice

        by nalin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:22:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hillary doesn't think there are gains to be kept (0+ / 0-)

          she's ending those no-bid contracts, closing those permanent bases, what does this fellow think she wants to salvage? She wants to save lives and money.  In that order.  

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:29:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  and (0+ / 0-)

            also part of Obama's plan:

            Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

            Cure This : Let's talk about health justice

            by nalin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:34:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  he just speaks of troops (0+ / 0-)

              not ending our no-bid contracts, getting all Americans out, exiting whatever the Iraq government may claim, getting out private armies, he doesn't say no occupation and no permanent bases, he doesn't call for rescuing Iraqis who've helped us and will be in danger after we leave. She'll have one embassy, guarded by Marines.  I don't see how it will help much to occupy a little less. they'll hate it just as much.  

              Hillary - Alternative Energy

              by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:43:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  until a week ago, (0+ / 0-)

                neither did Hillary. and the bill she signed onto is an irresponsible bill. it is just a political maneuver, not actually something that has any chance of passing or even making its way to the floor. you do remember the circumstances of her signing on to that bill, right?

                Cure This : Let's talk about health justice

                by nalin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:46:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  that's to debate (0+ / 0-)

                  she'd made it clear in her debates that no one would be left behind.  I thinks she's spoken against those private armies a long time as have many. the bill was recent though.  Still, it's timely.  And they can discuss it, no?  

                  Hillary - Alternative Energy

                  by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:48:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Look... (0+ / 0-)

                    if Hillary has somehow gotten more progressive on the war than Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel, I think that's fantastic. I wish all Dems were truly that progressive. But I seriously doubt it with her. Call me a skeptic. Her decisions on Iraq have consistently been determined by what is politically the better move for her.

                    Cure This : Let's talk about health justice

                    by nalin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:54:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  then let's press for more debates? (0+ / 0-)

                      I didn't know you didn't know, is this more progressive than Dennis? It's cheap to say she's guided by what's in her own interest, but truly her life experience says nothing like that. She's a real public servant, and she's straight arrow. If you start not believing her then I guess you wouldn't see it like i do.  i generally start believing everyone and only disbelieve when they let me down by lying. I don't' always agree with her but I trust her more than any other politician I've seen.  I know that's a minority opinion here.

                      Hillary - Alternative Energy

                      by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:20:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  no. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        anna shane

        he briefed her. he doesn't hold any position with the campaign. actually, i agree with him- she won't do an irresponsible withdrawal. she has said so herself- she says she'll get troops out as fast as is safely possible.  for some reason, that's being interpreted by these obama supporters as staying in iraq forever.

        Hillary 2008 - Flying Monkey Squadron 283

        by campskunk on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:26:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yes (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ianb007, skrekk

    So after she votes to authorize the war and acts like a hawk with Iran, you want me to believe that Clinton will pull us out of Iraq. Don't make me laugh.

    •  she voted for inspections (0+ / 0-)

      but even to give you your belief, how does that make her plan to withdraw not a great and stand-up thing?  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:16:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Authorization for Use of Military Force (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Same As It Ever Was

        She voted to Authorize Military Force

        As part of my studies of Constitutional Law, I've read the AUMF:

        Section 3: Authorization for Use of United States Armed Forces.

        (a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to:
          (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
          (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

        That doesn't sound like putting inspectors back into Iraq to me.

      •  Her plan, here, anna (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        skrekk, Same As It Ever Was

        is to ask the Pentagon to come up with a plan.

        So her plan is to ask for another plan.  That's what she's got at this point.

        If you want to parse this completely out, she has a plan to ask for a plan to withdraw our troops in 60 days.  That's it.

        We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

        by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:29:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  again, that's the operational plan. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          anna shane, NewHampster, DemocraticOz

          each policy plan - get US troops out of iraq ASAP- has an operational component. that's the operational plan.  everybody's not going to throw down their weapons and run for the airport. you need to figure out stuff like what troops move where, and in what sequence so they can cover each other. military people need to be in charge of drawing that kind of stuff up - unless you're lyndon johnson.

          Hillary 2008 - Flying Monkey Squadron 283

          by campskunk on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:32:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            anna shane, NewHampster

            I had to rec for the Lyndon Johnson reference.

            :-)

            We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

            by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:34:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  But to get to your larger point (0+ / 0-)

            I think we have another one of those issues without a distinction here.

            Obama presented a plan based on the available information we have now.  Now, it would be possible (according to military sources and advisers) to be able to safely and effectively pull troops out at the rate of ~2 brigades a month.

            That is the "best case scenario" that Obama has presented, as it sits today.

            If, in 6 months, it is no longer tenable to do so because of those military advisers you site in your comment, then the plan would have to change.

            The distinction here is that Obama has presented a plan based on the information we have available now, and Hillary has proposed to wait to present a plan until she gets to the White House.

            Each is going to have to approach this the same way if they're President, it just happens to be that they've presented this in a different way up front.

            We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

            by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:38:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes (0+ / 0-)

              and she can see there is no way to salvage anything, we have to end any occupation. She'll say we've done what we can, you can have what Bush kept all back, goodbye.  

              Hillary - Alternative Energy

              by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:45:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So back this up. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                nalin

                Is she going to do what she "sees" or what the military advisers tell her?

                She said in the last debate that we'd have to leave some troops in Iraq for counterterrorism operations and to protect our embassy.

                So her statement directly contradicts yours.

                We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

                by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:48:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  marines for our embassy (0+ / 0-)

                  like in all our embassies, some troops on the border.  I think her advisor said she wouldn't just start pulling troops out and leave some in danger, that has to be carefully planned and executed, she's not going to rush and lose lives. She'll go as carefully as her military advisors say they must, but she won't stop and hang out a while to see if occupation might still be feasible, it's going to keep moving until it's done. How long she says she can't be sure, but slow and steady she does promise and the end will be no one left.  No private armies and no oil contracts and no American civilian contractors.  It's someone else's turn to be stupid, or it's just Iraq's turn.  If they can't attract investors, they're on their own.  

                  Hillary - Alternative Energy

                  by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:52:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But this is what Obama says, too. (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    nalin, Same As It Ever Was

                    So again, just like I said above, I think this is a disagreement without a distinction.

                    The only difference is the way in which they presented their plans.

                    We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

                    by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:53:56 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Ii don't think so (0+ / 0-)

                      but I'm not sure. I think Obama doesn't want to leave all together, that's why he's keeping those private armies. I think he thinks he can inspire them to settle their differences and keep our oil contracts in force.  That's why I think he doesn't say no occupation no permanent bases, and why he won;t rule out reinvading them. I don't think he gets it, how badly the Iraqis don't want to be occupied by us, how they'd rather have a worse local government than a better American puppet government, and how many of them will continue to kill us over there and wherever as long as we occupy their country and give the impression, even if it isn't true. of keeping their oil and whatever it is they have that we want.  But I don't know and that's the point of this diary.  If he thinks there is some 'win' there for us, he's out of touch with reality.  And in this instance she isn't she sees it, nothing to win, more to lose, get out asap, pack it in pack it out, bring locals who've helped us cause they'll probably be slaughtered after we're gone.  

                      Hillary - Alternative Energy

                      by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 06:18:06 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  the logistics (0+ / 0-)

          the one thing she needs to be president to ask for.  The rest is what her lines are  what that plan must include, what we'll take and what we'll leave behind. She won't be exiting the oil.  

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:32:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The bill Hillary is sponsoring is for (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    nalin, skrekk, ElizabethRegina1558

    pulling ALL private contractors out of Iraq.  It's one of the most irresponsible bills she could choose to sponsor.

    If we pull ALL private contractors out of Iraq, how are we supposed to feed our troops?  House them?  Provide logistical support?

    Private contractors in Iraq provide much, much more than the Blackwater/Dyncorp "paid armies."

    The US could no more ramp up a 500,000 person support force than they could send 500,000 more troops.

    OTOH, Senator Obama has co-sponsored a bill calling for regulation of the private armies in Iraq.  They should be regulated under the Army Field Guide just as our volunteer army is.  Transparency in the process is what he's aiming for here.

    Now, I agree, shoveling money at Blackwater/Dyncorp in support of this war is ludicrous.

    But what are we going to do at this point?  GWB has us backed into a tight corner.

    We do not have the military capacity to send volunteer troops to replace the civilian "paid armies" in Iraq.  We don't.  Period.

    So are we supposed to leave our embassy unprotected, our diplomats unescorted, our supply convoys unprotected?  What are you aiming for here?

    I would love nothing more than to pull every contractor out of Iraq and burn Blackwater's headquarters down, but the fact is, we can't do it.  We don't have the civilian or military capacity to pick up the slack.

    We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

    by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:27:48 PM PDT

    •  a good thing to debate? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      NewHampster

      ask Obama?  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:32:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not sure what you mean here. (0+ / 0-)

        Could you please clarify?  I'm not sure which part of my post you were responding to.

        We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

        by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:40:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  expect this. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          skrekk

          no offense to anna shane because i think the intent of her concern about Iraq is where we all are, I think. but many times I've had threaded discussions with her that have dead-ended in non-sequitor questions or strawmen, as if she didn't read the comment she is responding to.

          anna, what are you suggesting Obama be asked? DemocraticOz has laid out the argument we had previousley in an Alegre diary. pulling out ALL contractors would be irresponsible. that bill won't move. the bill Obama has, on the other hand has already passed in the house and has Hillary as a co-sponsor. at least a responsible bill.

          Cure This : Let's talk about health justice

          by nalin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:45:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  to respond to (0+ / 0-)

            democraticOz's points. To defend them or to say something else.  She has a clear plan that isn't dependent on Iraqis progress or neighbors getting involved.  

            Hillary - Alternative Energy

            by anna shane on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:46:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think anna (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            anna shane

            naturally leaves leading answers in order to force us to think for ourselves.  Probably a trait she can't help as my guess is that in the real world she teaches young children.  Maybe even kindergarten.

            I really don't know, just my guess.

            I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person

            by NewHampster on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:52:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  a good thing to debate? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              anna shane

              ask Hillary.

              (heh. sorry couldn't help myself)

              Cure This : Let's talk about health justice

              by nalin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:55:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  But this is what's frustrating me right now. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              nalin

              The comments are a form of debate.

              I haven't thrown any punches (that I can see, but people read comments differently) and I haven't posted any attacks.

              I'm simply trying to understand where the distinction is, here, and I think we can have a good debate about it.

              So I'm trying to find the distinctions, but other than some small stuff, there's very little.

              I dunno...

              We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

              by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:57:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  well for me (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                DemocraticOz

                it's dinner time and a real good jambalaya I made is coming between us.  the jambalaya wins.

                I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person

                by NewHampster on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:01:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And now I'm jealous. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  NewHampster

                  Great.  NOW you've done it.

                  I microwave some day-old enchiladas and you're having jambalaya.

                  Way not to throw any punches NewHampster!

                  :-)

                  We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

                  by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:02:54 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  and jealous you should be (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    anna shane, DemocraticOz

                    the Maker's Mark is good too

                    I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person

                    by NewHampster on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:07:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, geez! (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      anna shane, NewHampster

                      Will the below-the-belt commenting never end?!?!

                      Maker's Mark?  Now you've got my goat!

                      I thought Hillary fought dirty...but you, my friend, take the cake.

                      ;-)

                      Enjoy your dinner, and have a good night if you don't come back later.

                      We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.

                      by DemocraticOz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:09:10 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I have more questions than answers (0+ / 0-)

                        which is why I want them to debate. And the stuff you bring up, that's what they should debate.  I can't defend or attack his plan, it's incomplete, and I don't know any more about her plan than I've written. And that doesn't mean she needn't be asked to explain, to answer your questions too.  For me getting out of Iraq is the biggest priority even though it's fading under all this economic bad news. So, I like your comments, but I can't answer them.  That's for her, like he has to answer questions too.  I'd like to see them come up with the same bes