Daily Kos

Obama v. Clinton: Who the Hell Cares?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:24:13 PM PDT

No doubt my friends in the establishment press are looking forward to a bitter and divisive brawl between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton all the way up to the Democratic National Convention, but the truth is that even at its nastiest, the 2008 presidential nominating process has thus far been an extraordinarily civil war compared to previous campaigns. Still, while the candidates have mostly managed to stay out of the muck, their partisan supporters in the blogosphere are now poised to march into combat rakes in hand, the posts and comment threads of many of our leading blogs serving as battlefields in an increasingly bloody war of words.

To which I caution my comrades in the progressive netroots... who the hell cares?

There isn't a nickel's difference between Obama and Clinton on most policy issues, at least not substantive enough that it can't be overcome by a commanding congressional majority, and both candidates arguably occupy the same center/center-left ideological niche.  We may prefer one candidate's health care plan over the other, or one candidate's historical record on the occupation of Iraq, but both Obama and Clinton largely share the same agenda, and either would be far preferable to the Republican alternative.  But most important to movement progressives like me, while both are good Democrats, and both have clear paths toward victory in November, neither is exactly what we would call a "netroots candidate," and thus neither deserves the sort of unrelenting partisan passion that now threatens to distract our ranks, if not actually split them.

I personally like Clinton, and believe she has the makings of an excellent president... but isn't she an icon of the very Democratic establishment we are all working so hard to challenge?  And I do find Obama genuinely inspiring, and believe he may be able to deliver the kind of personal leadership we desperately need at this unique moment in our nation's history, but... as phenomenally successful as his grassroots efforts have been both on- and offline, hasn't he merely borrowed the techniques and technology of the netroots while showing little if any interest in growing our movement or building our institutions outside the narrow interests of his own campaign?

Both candidates have raised staggering amounts of money online and harnessed the power of the Internet in ways barely imagined just a few years before, and we should all be greatly encouraged by this shifting political paradigm.  But Obama and Clinton's Internet strategies have had little more to do with the progressive netroots than the surprising online success of Ron Paul.  They are not, and never have been our candidates; they are merely the last two standing.

Nor should we have had any reasonable expectation of nominating a netroots Democrat in 2008, at such an early stage in a movement that will take at least another decade or two to reach full fruition.  The presidential contest is necessarily the race on which we have the least influence and the least impact, and regardless of who wins, the White House is the office to which we will surely have the least direct access.  As this campaign unfolds the blogosphere will play an increasingly critical role in helping to shift media coverage and shape the public debate, but the decisions of a handful of campaign strategists will be far more decisive in determining the outcome of the presidential race than we can ever hope to be in this particular cycle.  The netroots are surely a force to be reckoned with -- but in the context of presidential politics that sentiment is best conjugated in the future indicative.

It is hard not to get caught up in the hopes and passions of the race for the White House, but bloggers and other netroots activists must not get distracted from the long, hard task of building the infrastructure that will make a true "netroots president" a realistic objective.  That candidate will come from the ranks of the House or the Senate or from a governor's mansion, and that candidate must be someone who doesn't just share our values, but who has also shared our burden in building a new progressive movement from the ground up.  That candidate may be one of the dozens we are now working to elect this cycle, but we will never find out if we don't succeed in putting them in an office where they have the opportunity to establish their credentials on a national stage, while working with us to build toward the future.

It is not that the choice between Obama and Clinton isn't important, it is just that as bloggers we cannot afford to allow this drawn out nomination process to distract us from the House, Senate, gubernatorial and other local races where we can truly make a difference. These true netroots candidates can't wait until the end of August for us to refocus our attention; they need our energy, our creativity and our financial resources now.  Neither Obama nor Clinton can secure enough pledged delegates to seal the nomination, and so for better or worse, the decision is now in the hands of the party establishment.  Let them deal with it, while we keep our eye on the prize of gradually and relentlessly transforming the party itself.

[David Goldstein blogs on WA state politics at HorsesAss.org]

Tags: Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Presidential Election, blogosphere, netroots (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 57 comments

  •  I'm just sayin'... (15+ / 0-)

    ... let's not lose our focus.

    HorsesAss.org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press

    by Goldy at HorsesAss on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:23:19 PM PDT

    •  Gaining seats at the local level? (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      taylormattd, Gooserock, TracieLynn

      Don't we serve our chances of picking up more progressive congressional seats with a nominee at the top of the ticket who can attract interest all the way down the line for all sorts of elections?

      Policy wise, you're right, there isn't a huge amount of difference between Obama and Clinton.   But personality & electibility wise, the difference is huge and can greatly effect how the rest of the races balance out.  So in that sense, Obama vs. Clinton really does matter.

      •  It's about where we can be effective (5+ / 0-)

        Personally, I caucused for Obama, for purely tactical reasons:  I believe he will be better for down ticket candidates like Darcy Burner in WA-08.  But we have to understand and accept our limitations, a realize that we can have relatively little impact now on the nomination, while we still can have a lot of impact by working directly in these down ticket races.

        It's not about what Obama or Clinton can do for our movement... it's about what we can do for it.

        HorsesAss.org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press

        by Goldy at HorsesAss on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:36:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The focus is lost, my friend. (9+ / 0-)

      People can no longer see the forest for the trees and are perfectly willing to punish the rest of the country if their candidate [read: Obama] doesn't make it.  Childish, but there it is.  I voted for Obama in the primary and he's my preferred candidate, but if something happens and Clinton pulls it off, that's fine, too.  I'm at peace.  

      I prefer this brand of Socratic inquiry, actually: WTF is wrong with you?

      by lightiris on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:34:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bloggers Aren't Going to Build the Party. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn, crankyinNYC

      We should be an important contributor but the 50-State infrastructure of the party is bigger and more important.

      As others are saying, with Obama that infrastructure will remain; otherwise it'll be ripped down faster than solar panels off the White House.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:34:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have some criticisms (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn, justCal

      Both candidates have raised staggering amounts of money online and harnessed the power of the Internet in ways barely imagined just a few years before, and we should all be greatly encouraged by this shifting political paradigm.

      Why is this a good thing? It seems like people are pouring money into advertising coffers, but it's not like we're getting wildly progressive policy proposals out of this new internet machinery. I think the staggering amounts of money being put in are the cause of the levels of passion people have about the candidates (because it damn well isn't their policy proposals!!!)

      There is nothing revolutionary in the platform that will result from these two candidates. We're still gonna get militarism (both propose expanding the US military). Their energy proposals, if we're incredibly lucky, will be half as bold as Jimmy Carter, circa 1979. Their health care proposals are about what Richard Nixon thought was a good idea. Elections are going to be more about money than they ever were. And on and on. It's definitely NOT a progressive direction we're headed, no matter who wins this thing.

  •  Good luck with this diary. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    object16, anna shane
  •  A couple of weeks ago (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    object16, Glinda

    I might have agreed with you about that nickel. But no more. I think it is now about as accurate as Nader saying the same thing about Gore vs. Bush.

  •  Shhh! You're distracting them from their navels! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lightiris, charleston sugar, Inky99

    Now, pick up you soma...

    A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.
    - Calvin

    by iconoclastic cat on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:27:26 PM PDT

  •  A good point (5+ / 0-)

    You wrote: "It is not that the choice between Obama and Clinton isn't important, it is just that as bloggers we cannot afford to allow this drawn out nomination process to distract us from the House, Senate, gubernatorial and other local races where we can truly make a difference."

    But let me add one reason so many Obama supporters believe this does matter. It matters because Obama will keep the 50 state strategy alive and Clinton will not. It matters because the 50 state strategy will help downticket candidates. The shame is the campaign continues and draws our attention and resources (dollars and human) away from those races.

    We have a natural right to make use of our pens as of our tongue, at our peril, risk and hazard. Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique, 1764

    by MMW on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:27:45 PM PDT

    •  Yep, A Bigger Share of Power in January and (0+ / 0-)

      preservation of 50 state for the future.

      How'd the Democrats fare last time she was in the WH?

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:31:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, but... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      oldpro, mango

      We can have a limited impact on who gets the nomination, whereas we can have a huge impact in these local races.  It's not about what Obama or Clinton can do for the movement, it's about what we can do it for it, and we shouldn't get distracted by the race where we have the least influence.

      HorsesAss.org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press

      by Goldy at HorsesAss on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:38:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is exactly it. (0+ / 0-)

      This cycle is a perfect example here in Oregon. We have a senate race we're trying to flip.  Senator Clinton will energize the right to come out just to vote against her.  No, I don't have a link.  I have what I've heard from people.  It's what I know.  Obama?  He's not as loathed by the right and his popularity may demoralize enough conservatives that we can oust Smith and have a second Dem senator.

      I know red state dems who won't vote for Clinton.  It's not that they're crazy about Obama.  They don't like Hillary and what she brings with her. They just won't vote.  So their down ticket races lose support if she wins.

      America: Show your support for it with more than jingoistic slogans or leave it.

      by CJB on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:38:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And what will a fractured party or a President (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn, praenomen

      McCain do for the 50 state strategy?  

      •  and how does fractured party arise (0+ / 0-)

        Does it arise from one candidate and campaign dismissing 50% of the current primary/caucus electorate as deluded cultists, as latte sipping birkenstock wearing upper class elitists. Does it arise from one candidate and campaign saying their Democratic (repeat after me - DEMOCRATIC) rival is unqualified to be commander in chief and that the republican is qualified? Does it come from wanting to seat delegates from a state where your opponent was not on a ballot? Does it come from a campaign that runs an ad that will be featured by the Republicans in the GE?

        And may I remind you that we had a 50 state strategy leading into 2006 and their was not a democratic president. That 50 state strategy helped Dems take advantage of the republicans failures to seize control of Congress.

        And let us be clear, Clinton has made no commitment to the 50 state strategy and will not - her campaign chair McAuliffe is against it, she and Bill were against it, and the Clintons did not want Dean as DNC chair. So I think the 50 state strategy fares better without her.

        We have a natural right to make use of our pens as of our tongue, at our peril, risk and hazard. Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique, 1764

        by MMW on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 04:09:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I sure as hell care. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cody, praenomen

    Clinton is a centrist, Obama is a progressive.

    I trust Obama to end the war, to stand up against fear on civil rights issues, to run a sane foreign policy and to support ordinary Americans far more than I trust Clinton.

    I would have been moderately happy with Clinton... if she had won the primary with a clean campaign that played by the rules and didn't resort to sleaze.

    I am getting angrier and angrier with Senator Clinton each time she praises the Republican Nominee, discounts millions of Americans or relies on fake stories and subtle slurs.

    There is a big difference between the two, and if there is any justice in the Universe, it will ensure the Obama wins the nomination.

    •  Clinton is (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      grrr

      a conservative, by world political standards (which are the ones I care about). Obama was a progressive, before he became a US Senator. Now? Meh.

    •  Wake up, Obama not a progressive either (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn, AllisonInSeattle

      I look upon the arguments between the Clinton camp and the Obama camp with great amusement.  I agree with the diarist that there isn't a whole lot of difference on policy between the two.  I feel like Gulliver listening to the debates between the Big-Endians and the Little-Endians.  In the final analysis, its not going to matter much on the issues of concern to me (like calling a halt to the Iraq occupation ASAP and getting our troops home).

      Only one thing now is going to get me out to vote for President.  A McCain Presidency would most certainly tip the balance of the SCOTUS in favor of the wingnuts for the next generation and give us the more oppressive court seen in a hundred years. That fear alone is sufficient to motivate my vote, however reluctantly, for either Obama or Clinton.

  •  That's funny (0+ / 0-)

    because I thought I was just told that while McCain will make a great commander in chief, Obama isn't ready.

    John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

    by taylormattd on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:32:52 PM PDT

  •  Until Hillary made this comment (3+ / 0-)

    "I think you'll be able to imagine many things Senator McCain will be able to say. He's never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience. Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

    There was maybe a nickel's worth difference between them.  Now she's crossed the Rubicon and is going to have to deal with the consequences of that.

    One of which is I will, in November, vote for Obama or nobody.  If she's going to fucking destroy the Party like this by literally wrapping her embrace around the opposition, there is no political movement that can represent me anymore.  She won't come back in 2012 because there won't be Democrats in 2012.

    "There he goes again! Who's laughing now, betch?" -- Jimmy Carter

    by slippytoad on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:34:38 PM PDT

    •  it's true though (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      charleston sugar, PamelaD

      why this allergy to truth?  Obama is running on hope and inspiration, why should he mind that McCain has a lifetime of experience, and more than Hillary has, he's older, he was a POW, he's been in the senate longer?  Why can't he say he'll put forth his lifetime of hope and inspiration and excellent judgement? Why can't Hillary bring up her own strong points against McCain, it does not stop Obama from making a case for himself. Why the outrage over simple truth?  She's said she'll back him if he's nom and would invite him onto her ticket if she's nom. How is this not positive toward his candidacy?  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:41:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ridiculous (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        tiggers thotful spot, Glinda

        that people keep defending her disgusting comments.

        She is praising that right-wing lunatic McCain and saying, yes, he is qualified to be commander-in-chief, even though the guy is a crazy fucking war mongerer who "jokes" about bombing Iran, and who wants to be in Iraq for "100 more years". She also says that this nut McCain is more qualified to be commander-in-cheif than Obama. There is no difference between her comments and the person who writes copy for republican attack ads.

        John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

        by taylormattd on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:47:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you think she should lie? (0+ / 0-)

          what's negative to me is spinning her comment into an attack on Obama, he hasn't much experience and so what? Then he gets outraged that she's noticed McCain will run against him on experience, as if he didn't already know? Gimme a break, he's running on hope and inspiration and excellent judgement, she's running on experience and clear plans.  McCain has only experience and none of it compelling, but it's what he'll run on. for voters who care about experience she'll have a better chance than he.  So what?  I'm not all upset about the monster thing and that was a real attack, a character attack not a fact attack.  

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:55:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No anna - (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            taylormattd

            the quote is as I remember it (paraphrasing due to middle-aged memory): "Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience, I have a lifetime of experience, and all Senator Obama has is one speech he made in 2002".

            First: McCain's "experience" includes his involvement with the Keating Five, his opposition to reproductive rights, his cheerleading for the war in Iraq, and his insane joke about bombing Iran.

            Second: Obama wasn't found in 2002 in a cabbage patch with his speech tucked in his diaper. He has a lifetime of experience as well, as a community organizer and as a legislator. Just he hasn't been in the US Senate as long.

            If you REALLY wanted truth, the truthful statement would have been "Senator McCain and I have been in the Senate longer than Senator Obama".

      •  It's the framing (0+ / 0-)

        Obama was a community organizer. McCain was tortured by his captors. Which is truly better experience to be in the White House?

        The underlying premise of her comment is that being President is mostly about making decisions about who needs to get bombed -- which brown-skinned people have to die because of American paranoia about monsters lurking in the night. She's making the race about the "finger on the button". But it's the military industrial complex that is America's biggest real problem.

        As for her "lifetime of experience", it includes things like being first lady of Arkansas. Where answering the phone at 3am meant that there was a problem down at the Tyson chicken ranch. Hardly Presidential problems.

        •  she didn't say whose was better (0+ / 0-)

          McCain has more than either.  If it's more, it's McCain.  if it's enough, it's Hillary. If it's unnecessary it's Obama. I'd never vote for McCain but either Hillary or Obama will get my vote.

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:58:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That sure sounds like (0+ / 0-)

            "vote for the oldest candidate", if you think she wasn't implying whose experience is better.

            I disagree. I think the unstated assumption of her comment is that being a military pilot dropping bombs on people and a prisoner of war is better experience than being a community organizer or leading Harvard Law Review. And that idea is nuts, frankly. It's a shame people fall for it.

            Another thing that's nuts is her attempt to group herself with McCain, because she worked at a law firm representing Big Business of Arkansas or was a first lady. She is constantly repeating that everything she's done since law school is experience especially relevant to being President of the United States, compared to whatever Barack Obama has been doing since law school. This is laughable and absurd! It only shows how idiotic our electoral process is.

            •  only if you're Obama (0+ / 0-)

              didn't mean that to me and didn't mean that to my friends who support him and don't care a fig about McCain's lifetimes experience. But that's what it means to Obama, someone is a little touchy?  Feels vulnerable? Doesn't want anyone mentioning his inexperience?  Or is he pretending so's he can go negative by pretending outrage at Hillary?  

              Hillary - Alternative Energy

              by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 03:58:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  It's fucking bullshit (0+ / 0-)

        Hillary has no more substantial experience than Obama does.  The statement is a joke to start with, and insulting and demeaning.  She is BEHIND and will NEVER CATCH UP.  All she's doing is trying to sandbag his campaign so she can come along in 2012 after McCain makes an unholy wreck of our country and be our fucking savior.

        I won't stand for it.  That's why I'm making it plain:

        I WILL NEVER VOTE FOR HILLARY.

        "There he goes again! Who's laughing now, betch?" -- Jimmy Carter

        by slippytoad on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 02:59:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary...you're right on... (6+ / 0-)

    from a former Edwards supporter, who was far from a perfect candidate but at least held a populist stance(for the people) rather than a corporate stance like Obama and Clinton.

    I'm sure you'll have some cosmic rationale - Billy Joel

    by leftbird on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:39:06 PM PDT

    •  Boy, I miss John Edwards! At least, when he (5+ / 0-)

      was running, these two COM-supported "brand names" would occasionally have to talk about the issues. And, I have to agree with the diarist. Whichever candidate wins, we're looking forward to four more years of proud corporate servitude.

      Ferengi Rules of Acquisition: #34 "War is good for business...but only from a distance, the closer to the front lines, the less profitable it gets"-8.25, -6.21

      by Jacques on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:42:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There's one major difference (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    IhateBush

    that I can't overlook and that is a candidates moral center.  Clinton has absolutely zero moral clarity.  She is for Hillary, of Hillary and by Hillary and not for the Democratic Party.  That is a big difference. All you have to look at is the posturing and failure of this Democratic controlled Congress to see that character and commitment to Democratic values matter.  I haven't lost my focus because I believe that Hillary would be a disaster for the Democratic Party.  We need to clean house starting with Diane Feinstein, Evan Bayh, Chuck Schumer, Rahm Emmanuel, Steny Hoyer, Harry Reid, Mary Landreau, and this list could go on for a long time, but there is no way that the grassroots gain enough power to clean house if Hillary becomes our candidate, but it is possible if Obama wins.  

    •  that's negative? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      PamelaD

      that's also Obama's position, she's 'say anything' to be elected sound familiar? He's taken advantage of Hillary hate from the beginning and has unfortunately legitimized it.  He may even believe it.  It's very sad, dismissive of her supporter, and I'd like him to stop it and to talk about his own self.  It's going to be one or the other and it's not so great to base your candidacy on outrage over your opponent.  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:44:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you saying you approve of all of the failures (0+ / 0-)

        of this Congress?

        •  are you responding to me? (0+ / 0-)

          They're both in congress, and congress hasn't been able to stop bush from doing what he likes.  We want one of them in the white house, because it's a big mess over there and a lot needs to be cleaned up.  

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:56:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Before Hillary went negative (0+ / 0-)

            we were united for the most part, now we are deeply divided.  That has consequences that lay at Hillary's feet, and if she steals the nomination, we are not going to unite behind her, the momentum for creating a grassroots movement will suffer and we will be in a deeper morass than we are now.  If neither candidate cleans house and takes this country in a new direction, what will the next eight years look like?  I am an Edward's supporter who will support Obama, but I'll be damned if I will ever cast one vote for Clinton.

            •  I've been blooging for her (0+ / 0-)

              longer than Obama's been running and the Hillary hate has always been very high. We've never been united here, and the rest of the country likes them both, wants them both on the ticket, and is confused by Obama's so touchy and irritable.  (Okay, I made the last part up, only a few people I've talked with are all, what's with him, didn't he know this is a campaign and the whole point is to say why you'd be better. Doesn't he know that she'd never have run if she didn't think she'd make the better president?  But, they still like him and would like him on a unity ticket.  

              Hillary - Alternative Energy

              by anna shane on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 04:01:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  IT'S THE TAX RETURNS STUPID!!!! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    praenomen

    Is there a difference between Obama and Clinton?

    There is a HUGE difference between where the candidates get their money and to whom they are beholden.

    Clinton gets her money from lobbyists, special interests and big donors. Obama gets his money from over a million people like you and me,the vast majority are in small amounts of $100 or less.

    Clinton has actually said "lobbyists are people too" and the Clintons personal fortune has been funded by special interests, all of whom expect something in return for their largesse. Obama won't take money from federal lobbyists.

    Q: WHY WON'T CLINTON RELEASE HER TAX RETURNS????
    A: BECAUSE WE WILL SEE THAT SHE IS THE CORPORATE CANDIDATE EVEN MORE THAN McCAIN.

    THE CLINTONS MISSING TAX RETURNS:
    2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 1979, 1978.

    Not only has every other Democratic candidate for president done so, but John McCain, George W. Bush, and even Richard Nixon have all been willing to do that which Hillary Clinton won't do. Make their tax returns public!

    The truth is that Hillary is funded by big business types and shady characters, both her campaign and the Clintons' personal life. That is how she paid off her $5 million in legal fees, and bought the big house in Chappaqua, NY. In fact, the Clintons, were they ordinary citizens, would probably be in the big house.

    NO ONE WHO IS BEHOLDEN TO CORPORATE SPECIAL INTERESTS WILL EVER WORK TO BRING ABOUT REAL CHANGE THAT HELPS ORDINARY AMERICANS. THEY ARE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR.

    •  Is she releases her tax returns (0+ / 0-)

      the working class voters who she is doing well with will have second thoughts seeing that she and her husband, if filing jointly, are reporting many millions in income. Income that accrues not for running a company, or being a successful investor, or some level of entrepreneurship. They have been making a lot of money by their political connections and celebrity. Rightly or wrongly, this doesn't play well in the rust belt.

  •  If you want change you don't start at the top (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    grrr

    To build a permanent Liberal movement, or any movement, you need to create organizations that share a set of principals and goals, like the Christian Coalition, and the taxpayer revolt in California, around which people can rally.  These were movement organizations which set the terms for the conservative movement that has dominated politics for a generation.

    It does no good to rally around a politician, it makes for exciting campaigns and elections but the politician, without a platform to which he is irrevocably bonded, will end up dissipating the movement over time as he or she makes compromises or loses battles over the term of office.

    The thing is to create a movement over a set of goals and principals and win candidates over to one's causes.    The netroots are the perfect way to start such movements, the biggest Leftwing one now being Moveon.org.  These organizations need to create their own policy papers and recruit their own theoreticians, to set the foundation and structure for the movement.

    Only after that should we recruit politicians to enact our goals and philosophy into law and channel government to realize our vision for the country.  They should be the last piece in the building of the movement.

  •  Many Obama fans were not Dems before. (0+ / 0-)

    I tend to believe Elmo. In our local Dem club in Snohomish County, most of the new people attending were not Dems before and are there for Barack. I think over time they will become more interested in the Democratic Party in general, but not if they think this nomination is somehow being taken from them via clever parlimentary moves or outright fraud. They are not Clinton people to start with, and would be supporting McCain or no one, if not for Obama.   That is the anecdotal evidence I see here and I am seeing it in other blogs around the nation.  

    •  What I want to know (0+ / 0-)

      is whether Obama attracted Indies and Republicans because something in his message resonated with their conservative philosophies or whether it was his clean up politics and start all over again message.  And if it was the latter, does that mean that they are prepared to compromise or lose their conservative principals or not?

      This is the big unknown for me. I don't know exactly what are the constituent pieces of the Obama coalition, how do they interact, what are the fracture lines, how permanent are they, these are the questions I have for the Obama movement.

      If this seemingly neverending campaign can start to shed light on these unknowns then it will do the party a service.  

      If this coalition can work without compromising the Democratic Liberal principals that matter to me and to other Dems, then Obama deserves our support.  I am waiting to be sold.

  •  Rec'd for title, stayed to read... (0+ / 0-)

    like it all. Insightful and right on the money, er, right on the targets where we CAN be effective.

    Thanks.

    PS Tim Eyeman is a horse's arse.

    Be good to each other. It matters.

    by AllisonInSeattle on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:41:20 AM PDT

Permalink | 57 comments