Daily Kos

Meet the boogeyman

Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:14:16 AM PDT

Al Jazeera's recent interview with Khaled Mesha'al, head of Hamas' political bureau and a traditional hard-liner within the movement, is well worth a watch.

The money quote: "Now we have a vision: we accept a state on the 1967 borders."

The key point here is that Hamas is not the ideologically inflexible, politically extremist organisation painted by the mainstream media. There are areas where real progress could be made. It is certainly possible that, if it came down to it, the above would be exposed as mere rhetoric and Hamas would reject the standard two-state settlement. Hamas experts disagree, recognising important ideological shifts within the movement in recent years, but it is impossible to predict for certain what would happen. The way to find out, as Mesha'al said, is to test them.

A U.S. and Israel sincerely interested in peace would have jumped at chances to bolster the moderates within Hamas and to engage in dialogue with the organisation. Instead, opportunities  for political progress - Hamas' unilateral 18-month ceasefire, its 2005 electoral platform, the Prisoners' Document,  the Mecca Agreement, and so on - have been systematically undermined through rejectionism and violence. Israel and the U.S. saw signs of moderation by Hamas not as opportunities to be welcomed but as developments to be feared. For Israel, the threat posed by Hamas is primarily political, not military. Faced with the prospect of a credible Palestinian organisation that might well agree to a genuine two-state settlement, insisting on terms (such as a full Israeli withdrawal and a dismantling of Israeli settlements) unacceptable to Israel, the U.S. and Israel moved to crush this threatened Palestinian 'peace offensive' through economic strangulation and military force. It is undoubtedly the case that there exist within Hamas more extreme elements that would reject most of the above. For a while, the moderates within the movement appeared to have the upper hand - Hamas increasingly shifted its focus from the military to the political sphere, and adopted a platform far closer to Fatah's than it was to the movement's 1988 Charter. Sadly, U.S./Israeli policy has served, consciously, to undermine them at the expense of the radicals. However, opportunities still clearly exist for constructive engagement with Hamas, and we must ensure that the U.S. and Israel take them before it is too late.

Cross-posted at The Heathlander

Tags: Israel, Palestine, Hamas, Khaled Mesha'al, occupation, Gaza, peace process (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 97 comments

  •  Settlement construction continues (3+ / 0-)

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    litho, Rusty Pipes, lizardbox

    Ha'aretz:

    "Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has approved the renewed construction of hundreds of new homes in the Agan Ayelot neighborhood in the West Bank settlement of Givat Ze'ev, the Housing Ministry said Sunday.

    The project is expected to include an estimated 750 homes.

    "The project was approved by previous governments, and Olmert approved its resumption because it meshes with government policy," the prime minister's spokesman Mark Regev said.

    "It is consistent with our long-standing position that building within the large settlement blocs, which will stay a part of Israel in any final status agreement, will continue," Regev said. "Construction outside the settlement blocs has been frozen."

    Ynet:

    "The Defense Ministry recently offered settle leaders to evacuate illegal outposts in exchange for resuming the construction works in the settlement blocs.

    Ynet has learned that as part of the deal, the State will evacuate in the coming months 18 of the 24 illegal outposts, which were built after 2001. in return, new housing units will be built in Gush Etzion, Maaleh Adumim, Givat Ze'ev, Ariel, Elkana and Efrat.

    [...]

    "It is important to work according to a policy which dictates, first and foremost, a strengthening and reinforcement of the settlement blocs, which will clearly be part of any future agreement," Barak told the meeting attendees."

  •  Didn't Hamas just (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    livosh1, MBNYC, Eric S, zemblan, breezeview

    claim responsibilty for and celebrate the terrorist slaughter in Israel?  Screw them.

    •  I know that Hamas celebrated the attack (0+ / 0-)

      but I must have missed the news that it claimed responsibility.

      Do you have a link?

      •  Well, there was some confusion (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        litho, Rusty Pipes

        although a report in today's Ha'aretz suggests that Hamas and Hizbullah were behind it. It's not very reliable, since it is based on a source within the Abbas government.

        As far as I know, Hamas hasn't claimed responsibility for the attack.

      •  Here (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MBNYC

        Some writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them - T Paine

        by breezeview on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:25:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  THere was some confusion about that (0+ / 0-)

          see here.

          •  Key paragraphs from that Guardian report (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Rusty Pipes, mango

            Abu Obeida, a spokesman for Hamas's military wing who normally provides details of the group's attacks, said Hamas Islamists were not taking credit for the deadliest attack in Jerusalem for years - at least yet.

            "The Hamas movement announces its full responsibility for the Jerusalem operation. The movement will release the details at a later stage," the anonymous caller claming to be a Hamas official told the news agency.

            An anonymous claim of responsibility from an organization that normally takes formal credit even for attacks targeting civilians to me fails the credibility test.

            Did Hamas do it?  Based on the information currently out there, it is hard to say.

            Some evidence suggests the shooter may have acted alone.  Other evidence suggests he had external help, at the very least in acquiring the weapons used in the massacre.

            He did, however, work at the school.  The profile seems closer to a school shooter than to that of a suicide bomber.

            •  The morning after the attack, (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              livosh1, MBNYC, Keith Moon

              the beeb, on their USA World service, announced that Hamas had just taken responsibility, rather than  the formerly unknown group that first claimed responsibility.  Then later in the broadcast the updated that to an announcement from the political wing of Hamas that it could not fully claim responsibility and was waiting for the military wing to formally announce their responsibility.

              Their have been subsequent claims of responsibility from Hamas, and then further reports that they might soon claim responsibility.

              Perhaps Jamie is right, Hamas is very flexible.

              "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

              by Eric S on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:23:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, it's certainly plausible (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Rusty Pipes

                that Hamas was behind it. But in the absence of a clear statement of responsibility - with a link, please - then that's all we can say.

                In any case, it changes nothing about any of the above, which many here are curiously silent about. I'd have thought everyone would be jumping for joy. Odd, that.

                •  Double talk contradicted by actions is no reason (3+ / 0-)

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                  livosh1, MBNYC, wxlr

                  to jump for joy.  

                  And while your boys haven't been able to decide whether or not they want to take credit for the murders in Jerusalem, they most certainly have not disavowed them.  

                  Maybe in another day or two, if they make up their minds or you finish building this hill of beans, we can all jump or hop or rub our tummies and pat our heads.

                  "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

                  by Eric S on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:41:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Just read the (5+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    livosh1, MajorFlaw, blueness, Eric S, wxlr

                    Haaretz story, here.

                    Key quotes:

                    The gunman who murdered eight students at Mercaz Harav Yeshiva in Jerusalem last Thursday was acting on instructions from Hamas leaders in Damascus, in coordination with Hezbollah, Palestinian defense sources said.

                    Over the weekend, eight East Jerusalem residents were arrested in connection with gunman Ala Abu Dhaim's shooting attack. Abu Dhaim's father, two of his brothers and two cousins are among those detained.

                    The father also removed Hamas and Hezbollah flags from a mourners' tent the family had erected, after being instructed to do so by police. According to the Palestinian news agency Maan, Abu Dhaim's father had in the past been a member of Hamas.

                    Now you'll probably hear that the collaborationist PA sources are almost as bad as Israel itself in their bias against poor Hamas, or about factions inside the organization. What nobody will be able to explain to you is why you need to take Mashaal seriously when such factions exist.

                    I still can't believe this freaking video is posted here.

                    Still all about electing Democrats.

                    by MBNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 04:15:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Does anything in your comment (0+ / 0-)

                contradict or add anything to the comment you replied to?

                That's a rhetorical question, Eric, because the answer obviously is no.  Everything you say was already stipulated by me in the quotes from the Guardian.

                Then why do you waste our time?  Simply to be argumentative?  That's about par for you...

              •  Why do you bother? (5+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                livosh1, Eric S, zemblan, wxlr

                If Hamas had sent out engraved notices after the murders, some people would still cling to their fantasies that Hamas is merely misunderstood. The same people, I suppose, who think nothing of posting videos of terrorists here.

                Still all about electing Democrats.

                by MBNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:27:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  I do believe Israel is interested in peace (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rusty Pipes

    but the question is under what terms.

    Israel, it seems abundantly clear, wants a peace settlement which would allow it to have continued access to West Bank settlements and resources, which would give it no obligation to recognize the rights of Palestinian refugees, and which would allow it to retain all of Jerusalem as its undivided capital.

    Hamas will not agree to any of those terms, though a weakened and corrupt Fatah might.  So, Israel negotiates with Fatah because it hopes it might get what it wants, and it excludes Hamas because it knows the price for peace will be more than it wants to pay.

  •  18 month ceasefire? (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    livosh1, MBNYC, Eric S, zemblan

    You mean this ceasefire?

    Or this ceasefire?

    Maybe you meant this ceasefire?

    No.  Wait.  I'm sure you meant this ceasefire.

    Yeah, that must have been it.

    •  There was a unilateral Hamas ceasefire (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes

      lasting well over a year. This is a matter of fact. You provided four links. The first was a Hamas suicide bombing, the first in two years, carried out in the Gaza Strip which wounded three Israeli soldiers. It was carried out in response to Israeli war crimes in Beit Hanoun. A totally legitimate attack, in other words. The middle two refer to the same event, when Hamas ended a five-month ceasefire in Gaza because Israel continued aggressive actions in the West Bank.  The final link refers to an event in early 2008, and is thus irrelevant.

      •  Thank you. (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        livosh1, MBNYC, Eric S, bobisbob

        See ya.

      •  which year was that exactly? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MBNYC

        Since Israel dismantled the settlements in Gaza, the longest gap between rocket attacks has been from November 2006 until May 2007.

          •  Funny idea of a "truce", isn't it? (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            livosh1, MBNYC, Keith Moon

            In the 16 months Hamas claims as a "truce" prior to June 2006, Israel was attacked 7 times by rockets.

            •  Link? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes

              In any case, it's true that Hamas, on very rare occasions, didn't keep to the truce. This is not to be sneered at - the truce was unilateral, and Israeli attacks continued throughout. On a couple of occasions of particularly severe Israeli provocations, Hamas may have responded. This doesn't change the general fact that for well over a year Hamas was engaged in a unilateral, voluntary, self-imposed truce with Israel.

              Nor does it change the fact that the truce reflected meaningful ideological and strategic shifts within Hamas, and a huge opportunity for progress that would've been jumped on by Israel and the U.S. were they at all serious about wanting peace.  

              •  links (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                livosh1, MBNYC, Eric S

                Sorry, 5 not 7 attacks:
                7/24/2005 - Dana Galkowicz, 22, was killed in a Qassam attack in the Kibbutz Netiv Ha'asara, just north of the Gaza Strip. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah all claimed responsibility for the attack.[7]
                9/24/2005
                Five Israelis were injured when Palestinian militants launched about 30 rockets on Israeli communities from the Gaza Strip.
                12/26/2005
                A Qassam rocket landed at a very small distance from a kindergarten during a Hanukkah party at kibbutz Sa'ad.
                2/3/2006
                A Qassam rocket struck a family's house in the western Negev village of Kibbutz Karmiya, moderately injuring four people, including a 7-month-old baby.
                3/30/2006
                Two Qassam rockets landed in Kibbutz Karmiya, south of Ashkelon, one of them landed in a soccer field, where children played only hours earlier, and injured one person.

                In any case, I don't see this as a case of who started it any more.  This is pretty much an all-out war.  The primary cause of war is the non-negotiable demands of one or both sides which are unacceptable to the other side.

                One of the foremost among those demands is the question of accepting the existence of Israel.  If Hamas is truly signaling a shift in their long held rejection of Israel, then I welcome it, and I hope Israel pursues the opening.

                •  Thanks for the links (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Rusty Pipes

                  Only two of them refer to attacks for which Hamas claimed responsibility. One refers to an attack claimed by Islamic Jihad, for example. But it's true that there were occasional Hamas attacks during the truce period. But these were rare exceptions to a unilateral truce that was otherwise adhered to in the face of considerable Israeli provocation.

                  It's not a "war", it's an occupation, with resistance to that occupation. Mesha'al's remarks are nothing new, incidentally. See here, for example:

                  "If Israel recognizes our rights and pledges to withdraw from all occupied lands, Hamas, and the Palestinian people together with it, will decide to halt armed resistance".

                  The point, as I say, is not that Hamas' stated pre-negotiation position goes all the way towards the international consensus two-state settlement. It's that it is almost there, and that there have been numerous, clear opportunities for political progress that have all been shattered, deliberately, by U.S./Israeli rejectionism.

                  •  Speaking of provocations. (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Rusty Pipes

                    On searching for events that occurred before the  Qassam attacks on the dates Kramden provided, I found this at Btselem:

                    From July 7, 2005 - July 24, 2005

                    Yihya Ra'ees Suleiman Abu Taha
                    21 year-old resident of Rafah, killed on 24.07.2005 in Kissufim, Khan Yunis district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Killed while carrying out a shooting attack. Two Israeli civilians were killed and three others were wounded in the attack

                    Hamed Muhammad Harb a-Dah
                    21 year-old resident of Gaza city, injured on 15.07.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter, during the course of a targeted killing, and died on 22.07.2005. Additional information: Killed while working in a store nearby. Wounded by missile fragments in his head.

                    Ihssan Muhammad 'Atiyyah Abu Hamdiyeh
                    17 year-old resident of Hebron, killed on 22.07.2005, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed by accident, during an exchange of gunfire, between soldiers and masked people.

                    Muhammad Mesbah Ghanam
                    22 year-old resident of Nur Shams Refugee Camp, Tulkarm district, injured on 13.07.2005 in Tulkarm, by gunfire, and died on 20.07.2005. Additional information: Killed during an IDF incursion into the city.

                    Warad Muhammad Taher 'Abahreh
                    26 year-old resident of al-Yamun, Jenin district, killed on 19.07.2005 in al-Yamun, Jenin district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Wanted by Israel. Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers searching for him while he hid in one of the houses.

                    Ibrahim Daher Muhammad 'Abahreh
                    28 year-old resident of al-Yamun, Jenin district, killed on 19.07.2005 in al-Yamun, Jenin district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Wanted by Israel. Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers searching for him while he hid in one of the houses.

                    Ragheb 'Abd a-Rahman Ahmad al-Hamari
                    13 year-old resident of Deir al-Balah, killed on 18.07.2005 , Gaza district, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed when soldiers opened fire at detained cars.

                    Sa'id 'Issa Jaber Siyam
                    32 year-old resident of Khan Yunis, killed on 17.07.2005 in Khan Yunis, by gunfire. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed while standing outside his house with his father and his son. The gunfire came from the direction of the military post in the Neve Dekalim settlement.

                    Mu'az Jamal Mustafa a-Salimah
                    16 year-old resident of Salfit, killed on 15.07.2005 in Salfit, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while throwing stones at IDF soldiers who came to the hospital to arrest an injured wanted person.

                    Samer 'Abd al-Hadi Dawahqah Herbawi
                    24 year-old resident of Rafat, Salfit district, killed on 15.07.2005 next to Salfit, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Killed during an exchange of gunfire while hiding in a cave.

                    Amjad Anwar Badawi 'Arafat
                    36 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 15.07.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with three of his friends while driving in a car.

                    'Atef Marwan Muhammad Abu Ras
                    21 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 15.07.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with three of his friends while driving in a car.

                    'Adel Ghazi Isma'il Hanneyeh
                    28 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 15.07.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with three of his friends while driving in a car.

                    Muhammad Yusef 'Abd al-Fatah 'Ayash
                    22 year-old resident of Salfit, killed on 15.07.2005 next to Salfit, by gunfire, during the course of a targeted killing. Additional information: Wanted by Israel. Critically injured in the cave in which he was hiding, and died several hours later on his way to hospital.

                    Saber Muhammad Nasr Abu 'Aasi
                    22 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 15.07.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with three of his friends while driving in a car.

                    Muhammad Ahmad Salameh Mar'i
                    20 year-old resident of Salfit, killed on 15.07.2005 next to Salfit, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Wanted by Israel. Killed while hiding in a cave.

                    Muhammad Safwat Khalil al-'Aasi
                    26 year-old resident of Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus district, killed on 13.07.2005 in Rafidya, Nablus district, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed when he tried to escape from soldiers who were trying to arrest him.

                    Muhammad Fawzi Yusef Shhadeh
                    19 year-old resident of Nur Shams Refugee Camp, Tulkarm district, killed on 13.07.2005 in Tulkarm, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed during an IDF incursion into the city.

                    Nur a-Din Fares Nijem
                    17 year-old resident of Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus district, injured on 06.07.2005 in Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus district, by gunfire, and died on 10.07.2005. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: killed while throwing stones at Israeli Security Forces.

                    Khaled Muhammad 'Issa al-Masimi
                    15 year-old resident of Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus district, killed on 07.07.2005 in Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Killed during an exchange of gunfire.

                    Ahmad Subhi 'Awad Shahab
                    17 year-old resident of Khan Yunis, killed on 07.07.2005 next to Morag, Khan Yunis district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: killed during an exchange of gunfire.

                    From September 6, 2005 - September 23, 2005

                    Ra'id Ahmad Mahmoud 'Ajaj
                    29 year-old resident of Saida, Tulkarm district, killed on 23.09.2005 in Kafr Ra'i, Jenin district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Wanted by Israel, and was killed along with another two wanted persons during an exchange of gunfire with the IDF after they refused to surrender.

                    Jamil Naziyeh Jamil Ja'ar
                    23 year-old resident of 'Alar, Tulkarm district, killed on 23.09.2005 in Kafr Ra'i, Jenin district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Wanted by Israel, and was killed along with another two wanted persons during an exchange of gunfire with the IDF after they refused to surrender.

                    Sa'id Taleb Sa'id al-Ashqar
                    23 year-old resident of Saida, Tulkarm district, killed on 23.09.2005 in Kafr Ra'i, Jenin district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Wanted by Israel, and was killed along with another two wanted persons during an exchange of gunfire with the IDF after they refused to surrender.

                    'Alaa' 'Adnan 'Abd al-'Aziz Hantuli
                    19 year-old resident of Silat a-Dhahr, Jenin district, killed on 22.09.2005 next to Dotan Camp, Jenin district, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while trying to infiltrate into the army base during it's evacuation.

                    Walid Salman Muhammad 'Atiyat Khamaisah
                    18 year-old resident of Tapuah, Hebron district, killed on 13.09.2005 in Tapuah, Hebron district, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed when he tried to hide during an IDF incursion into the community.

                    Bashir 'Ayad Hamid a-Sufi
                    18 year-old resident of Tall a-Sultan Camp, Rafah district, killed on 08.09.2005 in Tall a-Sultan Camp, Rafah district, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed after he tried to hang a flag near his house which is close to Atzmon settlement's fence.

                    Nemer Riad 'Abd al-Hamid a-Sa'adoni
                    17 year-old resident of Khan Yunis Refugee Camp, killed on 06.09.2005 in Gush Katif, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while he and other youths penetrated into the Gush settlements before the army moved back.

                    Between December 12, 2005 to December 22, 2005

                    Anas Ahmad Mahmoud a-Sheikh
                    24 year-old resident of Sanniriya, Qalqiliya district, killed on 22.12.2005 in Nablus, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Wanted by Israel. Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers who came to arrest him.

                    Ahmad 'Abd a-Ra'uf Mustafa Khaled
                    22 year-old resident of Jayyus, Qalqiliya district, killed on 22.12.2005 in Nablus, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Wanted by Israel. Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers who came to arrest him.

                    Bashar 'Abd a-Latif 'Aref Hanani
                    29 year-old resident of Beit Furik, Nablus district, killed on 22.12.2005 in Nablus, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Wanted by Israel. Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers who came to arrest him.

                    Zaid Suleiman Khalil Mussa (Abu Jalbush)
                    23 year-old resident of Marcah, Jenin district, killed on 21.12.2005 in Jenin, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Wanted by Israel. Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers who came to arrest him.

                    Lukman Muhammad Hammad Abu Zakri
                    22 year-old resident of a-Nuseirat Camp, Deir al-Balah district, killed on 17.12.2005 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Killed while trying to plant an explosive device near the Gaza perimeter fence.

                    Husam Nabil Ibrahim Abu Nada
                    21 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 14.12.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during a targeted killing while driving in a car.

                    Muhammad Ahmad Muhammad Jiha
                    25 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 14.12.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during a targeted killing while driving in a car.

                    Rashad Muhammad 'Ali a-Zen
                    25 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 14.12.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during a targeted killing while driving in a car.

                    Hamdan Mahmoud Mahana
                    21 year-old resident of a-Shati' Camp, Gaza district, killed on 14.12.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during a targeted killing while driving in a car.

                    Husam Soheil Jamil Saqer
                    23 year-old resident of Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus district, killed on 13.12.2005 in Nablus, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while throwing stones at Isareli soldiers.

                    Iyad Muhammad 'Abed Hashash
                    19 year-old resident of Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus district, killed on 11.12.2005 in Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers seeking to arrest wanted persons in the refugee camp.

                    Nathir Yusef Ahmad Farhat
                    37 year-old resident of al-Mawasi, Rafah district, killed on 10.12.2005 in al-Mawasi, Rafah district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: Killed while trying to smuggle goods, apparently arms, by sea.

                    Khader Fuad Isma'il Rian
                    35 year-old resident of Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, injured on 08.12.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter, and died on 10.12.2005. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during a targeted killing while sitting in the yard of his house with two other friends.

                    Iyad Hussein S'ud a-Najar
                    30 year-old resident of Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, killed on 08.12.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during a targeted killing while sitting in the yard of Kadas's house with two other friends.

                    Iyad Muhammad Ibrahim Kadas
                    33 year-old resident of Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, killed on 08.12.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during a targeted killing while sitting in the yard of Kahader's house with two other friends.

                    Mahmoud Suleiman Metwali al-'Arkan
                    29 year-old resident of Rafah, killed on 07.12.2005 in Rafah, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during an assassination while driving his car near Khirbet al-'Ads. Six bystanders were injured in the attack, two of them minors who suffered serious injuries.

                    Ziad Isma'il Isma'il al-Bardawil
                    24 year-old resident of al-Mawasi, Rafah district, killed on 03.12.2005 in Rafah, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed while at sea in a fishing boat near the maritime border with Egypt.

                    Sayyed 'Abd al-Hadi Hamdan Abu Lebdeh
                    15 year-old resident of Khan Yunis, killed on 02.12.2005 in Khan Yunis, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while he was working his land, 600 meters from the Gaza perimeter fence. Two other friends were wounded.

                    It is entirely possible that Hamas, IJ or AAMB exploit these deaths. But it's undeniable (to those familiar with sanity and reason) that most of these events, if not all, are provocations. And it can be argued that these events contributed to the lapses in the cease-fire and the Qassam attacks served as a response to the aggression. I also notice that the targeted killings occurred when there was no immediate threat to Israel which means Israel had no justification for putting civilian lives at risk. Yet another violation.

                    The one I itacilized is a strange one though.

                    'Alaa' 'Adnan 'Abd al-'Aziz Hantuli
                    19 year-old resident of Silat a-Dhahr, Jenin district, killed on 22.09.2005 next to Dotan Camp, Jenin district, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while trying to infiltrate into the army base during it's evacuation.

                    How is infiltrating an army base not a hostile act? This was an Israeli army base?

                    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                    by callmecassandra on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:48:00 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  B'tselem are well intentioned and not bad people (0+ / 0-)

                      But they have an incentive to tag people as "nonterrorist" when in fact they are very much not privy to shin bet, mossad, border police, idf intel.

                      Now, that doesn't mean shin bet's always right or that some of the above aren't innocent deaths incurred in the pursuit of combatants.  I dunno what to call the split, maybe 50/50 absent anything but guessing?  But the vast majority of those above are either combatants or collateral damage to highly targetted action on combatants.  What else do you want from Israel?  They evacuated and are getting freakin rockets launched at them the last 2 years.  Ooh, Hamas calls unilateral truce, Islamic Jihad or AAMB or whoever keeps launching, Israel leaves Hamas alone and retaliates against those jokers until either Hamas gets back in the game due to Israeli actions against the others or Israel assassinates a Hamas person (I don't always agree with this if the group is being quiet).  What else are they supposed to do, never make a mistake and still get rockets launched at them?

                      •  Provocation. (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Rusty Pipes, blueness

                        That was the point. Intent and purpose is irrelevant.  

                        Re-read this:

                        But it's undeniable (to those familiar with sanity and reason) that most of these events, if not all, are provocations. And it can be argued that these events contributed to the lapses in the cease-fire and the Qassam attacks served as a response to the aggression.

                        As for what Israel is supposed to do? If a suspect is sitting on his porch with his son, how about not endangering the son, when the threat to Israel is not immediate or imminent, by bombing the house?  Or if a kid gets too close to a fence, how about the snipers, instead of shooting the kid in the head, shoot his legs instead? Or if a man is out fishing, how about, oh I don't know, not killing him? Just a few common sense tips for the sincere.

                        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                        by callmecassandra on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:38:10 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So in other words (0+ / 0-)

                          You're saying Israel doesn't have the right, as a sovereign state, to respond to attacks from territory they evactuated and gave de facto independence to.  I repeat, what is Israel supposed to do?

                          •  Did you follow recent events in South America? (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            Rusty Pipes

                            Colombia followed your logic and found itself on the brink of war with two of its neighbors.  When the regional body looked at all the facts and evidence, who backed down from the confrontation?

                            Colombia.

                            Countries don't like it when their borders are violated by sovereign powers.  For good reason.

                          •  I'll answer your question... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...as soon as as you show me where I said Israel should not respond to attacks.

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 07:20:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  You basically said (0+ / 0-)

                              That they can't respond if there is a risk to innocent life in this or that or this other way.  AKA they cannot respond.

                              Under what circumstances can they respond, if the rocket launchers all get in a building, warn all innocent people to stay away and convienently label it "Terrorist motherfuckers located here"?

                              •  No. (2+ / 0-)

                                Recommended by:
                                Rusty Pipes, blueness

                                I basically said that that Israel should respond to imminent, immediate threats.

                                A fisherman doesn't qualify.
                                A unarmed kid trying to run from danger doesn't qualify.
                                A man sitting on his porch with his kid doesn't qualify.

                                Please show how the above examples are so imminent & immediate that Israel should endanger the lives of civilians to get at them.

                                The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                by callmecassandra on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 08:37:44 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  So Israel can only respond if (0+ / 0-)

                                  They have the guy red handed about to launch a rocket... not if he launched rockets in the past and they have reason to believe so in the future and not if there's any chance that innocent kids running away from danger will get hit in the crossfire?  And not if there's a shadow of a doubt on the intel they have on the guy?

                                  Basically, those all add up to "Israel is not allowed to respond"

                                  •  No it doesn't. (1+ / 0-)

                                    Recommended by:
                                    Rusty Pipes

                                    Though Israel (and any other state or people including Palestinians) has the right to defend itself, Israel is bound by law not to endanger civilian lives if it at all possible.

                                    Ragheb 'Abd a-Rahman Ahmad al-Hamari
                                    13 year-old resident of Deir al-Balah, killed on 18.07.2005 , Gaza district, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed when soldiers opened fire at detained cars.

                                    I'll assume that a threat came from the cars which would make this an example of an immediate threat. It's tragic that the 13 year was killed, but in this instance, the soldiers would have had no choice but to respond.

                                    However, bombing a house where a suspect and his family are asleep or sitting on the porch is not necessary. The threat isn't immediate. Find another way.

                                    And if a sniper, an Israeli trained sniper, can shoot a boy in the head, the same could shoot a boy in the legs. I'm sure the parents would rather have a lame son, than a dead one.

                                    As for the fisherman? That's not bad intel. That's incomptence at best, criminal at worst.

                                    It appears that Israel refuses to take precautions to reduce the number of civilians casualities. In this light, Israel would then not be much better than Hamas.

                                    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                    by callmecassandra on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 09:48:44 AM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                                    •  It's not "incompetence" (1+ / 0-)

                                      Recommended by:
                                      Rusty Pipes

                                      they're deliberate or indiscriminate killings, as documented at length by numerous human rights organisations. We dont need to make excuses for it.

                                    •  They take all kidns of precautions (0+ / 0-)

                                      If they didn't take precautions, the ratio would be like 50:1.  As I've said on other threads, I've personally heard guys bitch about taking fire while they stormed a house instead of dropping a bomb on it or hitting it with a hellfire.

                                      Sometimes, the risk to soldiers is unacceptable and bombs are what happens instead.

                                      Once again, none of this would be necessary if the armed groups in Gaza hadn't reacted to Israeli withdrawal by launching rockets at Israel from innocent peoples' land.  You're saying find another way?  Easy for you to say.  

                                      •  Not... (0+ / 0-)

                                        If they didn't take precautions, the ratio would be like 50:1.

                                        ...a defense. It's pretty bad now. So deal with now.

                                        As I've said on other threads, I've personally heard guys bitch about taking fire while they stormed a house instead of dropping a bomb on it or hitting it with a hellfire.

                                        The job comes with risks. Don't like it? Quit.

                                        Sometimes, the risk to soldiers is unacceptable and bombs are what happens instead.

                                        For most people, the risk to civilians is unacceptable and retaliation is what happens when this is not heeded.

                                        Once again, none of this would be necessary if the armed groups in Gaza hadn't reacted to Israeli withdrawal by launching rockets at Israel from innocent peoples' land.

                                        None of this would be happening if there was no occupation.

                                        You're saying find another way?  Easy for you to say.

                                        That's because the solution is easy. End the occupation. Or at the very least, talk to Hamas. Such a crazy idea, it just might work!

                                        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                        by callmecassandra on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 10:34:42 AM PDT

                                        [ Parent ]

                                        •  None of that will stop the rockets overnight (0+ / 0-)

                                          Your attitude towards risks to soldiers is basically "Comes with the job, suck it up buddy"  -- Guess what.  Israeli policy makers strongly disagree.

                                          •  I'm as cavaliar about the risk to these soldiers (0+ / 0-)

                                            as they are about the risks to civilian lives.

                                            The "Let God sort them out" argument isn't all that appealing to me nor does it engender sympathy towards those who make it.

                                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                            by callmecassandra on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 11:35:11 AM PDT

                                            [ Parent ]

  •  Is there a transcript of that interview? (0+ / 0-)

  •  Glad to see... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    livosh1, MBNYC, zemblan, wxlr

    ...that they are preaching moderation.

    Now, if they want to be taken seriously, all they have to do is...

    1. Recognize Israel
    1. Renounce Violence
    1. Agree to abide by existing agreements.

    This is a very, very low standard.  I'm sure the "moderates" can meet it. Right?

    •  The Quartet "principles" you have here (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes

      regurgitated were described, accurately, by a former head of Israel's military intelligence as "ridiculous, or an excuse not to negotiate."

      The "principles" are absurd in and of themselves, but are in any event totally hypocritical. You say it's a "very low standard", but its one Israel has spectacularly failed to meet, on all counts.

      If Israel and the U.S. are genuinely interested in achieving peace, there's no sense whatsoever in attaching preconditions to negotiations with Hamas. Clearly there's room for progress to be made, and Israel and the U.S. should be leaping at the chance to make it. That they're doing the opposite is very telling.

      •  Accurately to you perhaps, (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        livosh1, MBNYC

        but the Quartet themselves seemed to think them fine. Nice though, that you find a former head of Israel's military to disagree with the UN, The US, GB & Russia.  

        If we find a former head of Israel's military (or perhaps even a current one) who thinks that Hamas' reticence is "ridiculous, or an excuse not to negotiate," then which side in the debate will be ahead?

        "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

        by Eric S on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:32:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Plainly the Quartet did (0+ / 0-)

          It's essentially a U.S.-led operation, and we all know how balanced and impartial the U.S. role in the Israel/Palestine conflict is.

          If you're unable to understand why a statement by a former head of Israel's military intelligence criticising his government's policy is more meaningful than a statement from a head of military intelligence praising it, then you're not competent enough to make discussion worthwhile. In fact, I know that you're not, so I'll leave it here.

          •  Yes the US leads Russia by its nose, (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            livosh1, MBNYC, wxlr

            and the UN as well.  And what to say of Great Britain, now a colony of the US?

            Whatever source suits your purpose, that is the only meaningful one.  Though, if you were to take Gazit's full quote and plug Hamas in where Israel is currently being alluded to, you would find that his formulation works just as well.  In this vein, I would suggest that his comment is quite fully a recognition of Hamas' inability to climb down from their tree.

            But if you want my personal opinion, if Hamas gave a clear signal, rather than the "money quote" you find so dear, I would love to see negotiations begin. But in the realm of clear signals, the clearest I have seen was the escalation into firing longer range rockets.  That is a signal easily drowning out the self serving words of a terrorist politician.

            "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

            by Eric S on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:32:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Mesha'al contradicts himself so often (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    livosh1, MBNYC, blueness, wxlr

    in this interview, I would suggest it does your position more harm than good. He is a slippery character who clearly wants to have things both ways.. all three ways... too many ways to count.

    In fact, if he is so agreeable to this state on the 1967 borders, he would have no reason to argue about recognizing Israel (rather than continue to describe them as the Zionist Entity), and that would settle the matter much more nicely eh?

    "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

    by Eric S on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:36:23 PM PDT

  •  Nice. (6+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    livosh1, Eric S, zemblan, dfb1968, bobisbob, wxlr

    Another screed about how Hamas is really someone we should be rooting for, instead of condemning for the murder of Israeli and Palestinian civilians.

    Didn't someone in Brooklyn go on trial for broadcasting their propaganda in this country? Might be worth looking into; Mashaal would probably be arrested and tried for terrorism if he ever came to here.

    But that's why we have heathlander and other Hamas apologists: the thrill of listening to a terrorist, a real-life killer of actual people, with none of the angst of being in the line of fire. Awesome. Especially when he offers some insincere pablum about peace, for the real righteousness jollies.

    Yeah, and I do have to ask: posting video of a terrorist on a Democratic blog helps elect Democrats how exactly?

    Still all about electing Democrats.

    by MBNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:24:50 PM PDT

    •  Lying once again (0+ / 0-)

      This diary documents Hamas's willingness to negotiate, and suggests that Israel if it is truly interested in peace should take them up on their stated willingness.  The diary also states that Hamas may be lying, but only in putting them to the test can we know for sure.

      In your lying hands that becomes cheerleading for Hamas.

      And you wonder why these diaries descend into "poo-flinging contests."

      Look no further than yourself, good sir.  You lie like a dog.

      And you have the fleas to show for it.

      •  They may be lying, so let's! Rah, rah, rah! n/t (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MBNYC, wxlr

        "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

        by Eric S on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:37:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Blah blah blah. (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        livosh1, MajorFlaw, Eric S, zemblan, wxlr

        Hamas supposed willingness to negotiate is entirely situational and based on the fact that their strategy of violence is failing. They're failing both because the Israeli government shows no sign of being willing to be bombed to the negotiation table, and because Gazans are measurable unhappy with the results of Hamas rule, including their strategic decision to locate their offensive assets in civilian areas and taking the resultant casualties in stride.

        Any word, meanwhile, from you on the appropriateness of posting video of a terrorist here on Daily Kos? Or is Mashaal the kind of terrorist you don't mind having posted here? Can you please point me to the Democratic candidacy you believe this will assist?

        Re: fleas, well, I mean, look who responded to me.

        Still all about electing Democrats.

        by MBNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:39:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Called on your lies (0+ / 0-)

          you offer a pathetic attempt to analyze Hamas's behavior, but you fail.

          The fact remains you completely distorted heathlander's diary.  That calls into question why you even participate in these threads.

          You lie in I/P diaries.  Case closed.

          •  And here we have (5+ / 1-)

            Recommended by:
            livosh1, MajorFlaw, Eric S, zemblan, wxlr
            Hidden by:
            litho

            Litho the shit-flinging poo monkey, unable to make an argument, resorting as usual to personal attacks pulled straight from his ass.

            So, yeah, just answer: how is it appropriate to have video from a leader of a designated foreign terrorist organization under U.S. law on a Democratic web site? One that, as was laid out above, is responsible for the murder of several yeshiva students?

            My god, have you people become so myopic that you've completely lost your minds? This crap should be deleted and heathlander banned for it.

            Still all about electing Democrats.

            by MBNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:25:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sad case of HR abuse. (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            livosh1, MajorFlaw, MBNYC, wxlr

            Litho crudely screeches about  supposed lying and then complains about poo slinging.  MBNYC, a gentleman, tolerated litho's personal attack, but that was not enough for him, and litho must call him out  again.  When his own insults are appropriated and handed back to him, he HRs the comment - awful.

            Uprated.

            "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

            by Eric S on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:20:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Notice how (5+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              livosh1, MajorFlaw, blueness, Eric S, wxlr

              nobody is able to explain how exactly these videos are appropriate on this web site?

              This is just what we need: the same place that showcases Keith Olbermann, Ted Kennedy, Barack Obama, and whomever else has posted diaries here, has some shills who think it's appropriate to place the head of Hamas right next to them. This because a man responsible for, say, suicide bombings, is exactly the right fit for Democrats running for office.

              Truly, the mind reels.

              Still all about electing Democrats.

              by MBNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:10:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  All the more so because these videos (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                livosh1, MajorFlaw, MBNYC, wxlr

                suggest exactly the opposite of what Jaimie suggests.  As I have noted elsewhere, Khaled Mesha'al comes off as a desperate man who will say anything, blame anybody, contradicting himself repeatedly, and suggesting possibilities to the camera that his group steadfastly refuses to place on the negotiating table.

                The only way Jamie's point is made, is if one discards everything else but the six or seven words, he imagines should have us jumping for joy.

                On a positive note, I do applaud our prodigy for his discovery of concision.  Though the videos took twenty-odd minutes, it was still a refreshing break to hear simple lies told greasily enough to slide through without challenging my digestion.  Certainly better than struggling through his usual chunky style logorrhea pretending to be erudition.

                "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

                by Eric S on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:41:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Heh (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      litho, Rusty Pipes

      a real-life killer of actual people,

      Based on casualty counts, I think you've just revealed why you support every action the IDF has undertaken.

      •  ... (4+ / 1-)

        Recommended by:
        livosh1, MajorFlaw, blueness, wxlr
        Hidden by:
        litho

        Still all about electing Democrats.

        by MBNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:08:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  More ratings abuse (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MajorFlaw, Eric S, wxlr

          by litho, a man with more anger than arguments. Heh.

          Still all about electing Democrats.

          by MBNYC on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 08:16:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So, rather than trying to defend (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          litho

          your comment (the section of which weasel highlights, suggests that you believe that Israelis are real people and Palestinians are not) you post a photo implying that the only reason anyone would criticize you is because s/he is an infantile Israel-hater.

          So much for reasoned debate.  Mocking graphics are inflammatory, especially in I/P threads.

          Reel Bad Arabs: a crash course on Orientalism

          by Rusty Pipes on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 04:10:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Um, sorry. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Eric S

            Weasel implies that I am a killer - you know, the comment you gave mojo to. Now, one can either use that as a starting-point for debate, or simply employ it as an occasion for well-deserved ridicule. Me, I happen to think that accusing someone of being a killer is somewhat inflammatory. Then again, that's par for the course from the pro-Hamas chorus, and those of us cognizant of their brutal intolerance of diverging viewpoints are entirely used to it.

            And besides, reading over your commentary here, litho's, weasel's, heathlander's, frankly, I've captured the intellectual sophistication of all four of you rather acutely.

            Have a pleasant evening.

            Still all about electing Democrats.

            by MBNYC on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 07:02:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Your interpretive powers are not limited to (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            MBNYC

            an incapability with humor.  Nowhere does MBNYC make even the most remote comparison between Israelis and Palestinians in the quote you and weasel have chosen to distort.

            "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

            by Eric S on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 07:57:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Careful, careful (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Eric S

              ...you're not supposed to mock the righteous, because that's inflammatory, and they may have to accuse you of being a murderer, liar and stuff, just to get even.

              These people have fallen to caricatures of themselves. How ironic that this take place in a diary that presents an interview with someone who ordered the murder of women and children. Because the biggest problem in this diary is that some people of better judgment are outraged about it.

              (waiting for weasel to come along and scream about Ariel Sharon now, because there have been lots of diaries with videos of him talking about peace, I guess)

              Still all about electing Democrats.

              by MBNYC on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 10:03:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Just to clarify, (0+ / 0-)

        you're referring to Mesha'al, the Hamas member whom MBNYC identifies as

        a real-life killer of actual people,

        Given that the causualty counts of Palestinians killed by the IDF vastly exceeds the number of Israelis killed by Hamas, I'm assuming that you are commenting about the focus of MBNYC's outrage and his definition of the relative merits of Palestinians and Israelis qualifying as "actual people."

        For some reason, MBNYC believes that your comment accuses him of being a murderer.

        Reel Bad Arabs: a crash course on Orientalism

        by Rusty Pipes on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:11:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, just to obfuscate. n/t (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MBNYC

          "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

          by Eric S on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:13:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Over-interpret much? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Eric S

          I'm used to having to weigh every word to a nicety amongst this crowd, but that's a thoroughly ridiculous interpretation of what I said, saying more about the willingness of parts of the so-called "pro-Palestinian" faction to demonize, slander and vilify dissent by any even improbable means than anything else.

          And anyway, weasel knows exactly what he said and why. It's not the first time the "anti-racist" crowd has smeared people who dare to disagree with you folks, is it? Or why do I amusingly find my UID dozens of times over at the Fleshfeast?

          A lot of your cohorts are really fucked-up, nasty individuals, Rusty. Deal with it.

          Still all about electing Democrats.

          by MBNYC on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 08:09:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I thought Rome got rid of Purgatory, (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            MBNYC, voila

            but I searched out the FF place you mention above, and voila.  I'm jealous though, you get oodles of mentions and I'm stuck with the paranoid rantings of "stupid a-hole" and rusty.

            Is there really some kind of professional Zionist paying gig, 'cause I might be able to find a little more time for this if I could call it a job?

            "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

            by Eric S on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:23:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sure. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Eric S, voila

              There are Zionist organizations that spend money on shaping public opinion. But what our angry friends at some level don't realize is that it's entirely possible to disagree with them without getting paid for it. I certainly don't get paid for anything here.

              But eh. Once you get used to being called a fascist, racist, murderer, whatever, by some mentally unhinged zealot, it's really not all that bad. It's not like anyone takes that shit, or those shits, seriously.

              Still all about electing Democrats.

              by MBNYC on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 02:15:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, I can't imagine they would get much return (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                MBNYC

                on their money by planting operatives here.  And I was being facetious.

                As for that dross over at FF, some of the things those "progressives" say unchained from any responsibility, are so over the top, they should be banned from mankind.  The worst (and best) said about me was the suggestion I'm some bellwether for Zionist talking points.  OTOH, they got a seriously vulgar harsh on for you.  

                Here's a bit from the recto page preceding the contents of a book I'm reading:


                "Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.

                "They are people of bad race and lineage; out of their countenances peer the hangman and the sleuth-hound.

                "Distrust all those who talk much of their justice!  Verily, in their souls no only honey is lacking.

                "And when they call themselves 'the good and just,' forget not, that for them to be Pharisees, nothing is lacking but - power!"


                It's Nietzsche, in a book about hoboing at the turn of the century - "Shadows of Men," written in the 1920's by an amazing and forgotten character named Jim Tully.

                "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

                by Eric S on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 06:39:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Heh. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Eric S

                  I'm some bellwether for Zionist talking points.  OTOH, they got a seriously vulgar harsh on for you.  

                  Just remember the old saying: all press is good press. I don't check the place that often, but when I do, it tickles me to always find something new and over the top - "MBNYC eats babies" or what have you. One gains by having detractors, especially when they're all such social rejects that they wound up getting banned wherever they set foot.

                  The only person over there worth reading because brilliant is pinche tejano; the rest, as you say, is dross.

                  Still all about electing Democrats.

                  by MBNYC on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 07:53:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  I've removed MBNYC's "terrorism" tag (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rusty Pipes

    because the diarist is not discussing terrorism, but rather the peace process.

    I'll remind MBNYC that the use of tags to express an opinion about diaries' content is expressly prohibited at DailyKos, and that tag abuse is considered a serious offense.

  •  Thanks for the diary, heathlander! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    litho

    Countries don't really need to negotiate peace with their friends, but with their enemies.  The real question is whether  those negotiating actually represent their people and will be able to abide by/enforce the terms of the agreement.  The more the legitimacy their leadership is in doubt, the more difficult it will be for them to hold up their part of the bargain.

    Many parties have engaged in terrorism in the past.  The real question is about a future for both peoples.

    Reel Bad Arabs: a crash course on Orientalism

    by Rusty Pipes on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 04:44:55 PM PDT

    •  Isn't it about time to give litho your lecture (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      livosh1, MBNYC, wxlr

      on the proper etiquette for HRs?

      "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

      by Eric S on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:24:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, awesome. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      livosh1, MajorFlaw, Eric S, wxlr

      Another one who doesn't see anything wrong with a video interview of the head of a foreign terrorist group posted on Daily Kos.

      Many parties have engaged in terrorism in the past.

      Yes, within the last few days, in fact. Your statement is vapidity masquerading as moral relativism.

      Still all about electing Democrats.

      by MBNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:04:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Honestly, I'll second Rusty's thanks (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        wxlr

        I personally think Meshal is a major league fucker and the fact that all of a sudden he's giving interviews on Al Jazeera about how peaceful he wants to be?  Possible evidence that I was wrong for disapproving of the recent IDF action.  

        But on a dkos note, props to heathlander for bringing this to our attention, mostly it's just Meshal reciting talking points but the ones he chose to emphasize were interesting.  As far as him being serious on peace, note that he demands all of Jerusalem and all of the right of return -- that's fine with me as far as an initial position to negotiate from but I'd like to see him actually be a party to negotiations.  It could be Hamas is finally in a position where that makes political sense for them.

        •  Well, as I say, (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          litho, Rusty Pipes

          Mesha'al has said similar things before. And Hamas has been asking for a ceasefire for months now.

          But thanks for at least recognising that it's a good thing (in fact, a necessary thing) to hear what the other side is saying. Of course Mesha'al is, apart from anything else, a politician, and so we have to evaluate what he says critically. Nevertheless it is clearly an important thing when a leader of a supposedly "rejectionist" faction, whose rejectionism is being blamed for all the violence, comes out and calls for a two-state state settlement (albeit with the right of return). That should cause anyone with at least a vaguely open mind to consider whether U.S./Israeli violence really is being perpetrated as a last resort, or whether there are other options that have not been pursued. The next question would be 'why have they not been pursued', and I made my opinion clear in the diary.

          I think there are very good reasons to take what Mesha'al says above seriously. Firstly, all of Hamas' recent documentation (its 2005 electoral platform, its draft program for a coalition government and its March 2006 cabinet platform) evidenced a significant ideological shift, both in terms of religion and in terms of Hamas' position with regards to Israel. Secondly, along with the words have come meaningful actions. There was the unilateral 16-month ceasefire, the fact that Hamas came into office asking or a 10-15 year truce on the basis of a two-state settlement and negotiations after that (which clearly shows a big development from the days of insisting on nothing less than the 'destruction of Israel'), the fact that Hamas agreed to the Prisoners' Document (which called for resistance to be focused inside the West Bank and Gaza, and called for a state on the 1967 borders), the fact that Hamas agreed to abide by any agreement worked out by Abbas and Israel, so long as it was put to a referendum, and so on.

          So like I say, there were real chances to make progress with Hamas and they were rejected, all of them, by Israel and the U.S. It looks as though there is still a possibility of constructive engagement and anyone seriously interested in halting the horrific human suffering there should not hesitate to take it.

          •  As far as real chances (0+ / 0-)

            I don't think they happened, Hamas has never seriously made moves towards stopping terror attacks by groups within their sphere of influence.  That I saw, anyways.

            If they want to put that on the table now, they're worth talking to.  However they don't get to negotiate for the West Bank or hold the West Bank population hostage to their rocket attacks.  Unless they work something out with Abbas.

            •  asdf (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes

              "I don't think they happened"

              OK, well that's just an assertion I'm afraid, and one contradicted by a lot of evidence (some of which was outlined above).

              "Hamas has never seriously made moves towards stopping terror attacks by groups within their sphere of influence"

              Clearly not. Hamas isn't going to go the way of Fatah and start policing Palestinians on behalf of Israel unless it's in the context of genuine peace talks, or a comprehensive ceasefire. Hamas has explicitly requested the latter, and made heavy hints about being open to the former.

              "However they don't get to negotiate for the West Bank or hold the West Bank population hostage to their rocket attacks.  Unless they work something out with Abbas."

              How are they holding the West Bank "hostage"? Hamas wants a ceasefire in both Gaza and the West Bank, that would involve the lifting of the siege. Which is fair enough. The Novermber ceasefire, mentioned above, failed for precisely this reason: Hamas, the Islamic Jihad and others wanted the ceasefire extended to the West Bank. Israel refused, inexplicably if we are to assume good faith (and we shouldn't). After several month